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Author Topic: The Right to Keep and Bear Arms: The Gun Thread  (Read 64704 times)
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the captain
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« on: October 04, 2015, 12:42:24 PM »

My hopes aren't high, but hey, I'll try. (Ooh, poetry!) I ask respectfully that people use this thread to discuss gun (or other weapons) ownership in whatever calm and reasonable way they see fit: the 2nd Amendment's original intent; whether original intent matters in a changing world across the centuries; whether it's an all-or-nothing question, as opposed to one that can see compromise; personal views and situations. I'd especially love to hear from people outside the U.S. The Real Beach Boy asked that politics be kept out of his thread dedicated to the innocent victims of the Oregon shooting, the most recent of a seemingly endless string of mass killings in the U.S. This thread, then, can be the place to discuss the politics of the relevant issues.

I can't control what anyone writes, but I'm asking politely for civilized, reasoned discussion. Strong opinions--radical opinions--are welcome. But to quote Joe Pesci's character Nicky in "Casino," "Be fuckin' nice."
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2015, 12:45:58 PM »

Moved here from the "Umpqua Community College shooting today" thread:

If you guys feel as badly as you say you do about the recent shooting, why are you unwilling to to take steps to prevent this from happening again?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 01:06:23 PM by Bubbly Waves » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2015, 01:00:06 PM »

I'll kick it off with a little background on where I'm coming from on the issue (in case anyone cares).

I was born and raised in the upper Midwest (rural Minnesota), which is an area where gun ownership is not an issue at all: virtually every family I knew had guns. People would occasionally put guns in their lockers after a morning of hunting before school. It wasn't allowed, technically, but it happened, and nobody much cared or worried about it. My dad was a cop and a gun collector; I don't know how many guns he had (or has), but it had to be 15+. In his line of work, he faced gunpoint more than once, most often by people whose guns were legally acquired, but not always. I first shot at a range when I was 10 or so. My family has plenty of hunters, both bow and gun.

Since the late '90s, I've lived in a city that was then referred to famously as "Murderapolis" because of its then-escalation of gang violence. We had our own mass shooting a few years ago, when a disgruntled ex-employee killed about half a dozen people at his former place of work.

Sometimes I hold relatively extreme views--I usually believe in compromising, but that doesn't mean my personal views are always moderate--but on this issue I do consider myself very much in the middle. While I don't believe in some sanctity of the U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights, I do think they were the best thing going at the time and have plenty of wisdom yet today. And of course, what's law is law. What's protected right is protected right. I don't believe every citizen in this country should be forced to turn in his or her guns--nor do I think 99% of self-described liberals think that, from what I know. Conversely, I don't think there should be as few restrictions as there are in some parts of the country to buy or own firearms. The variation between gun-show purchases and brick-and-mortar purchases seems to be one obvious place where there could at least be consistency, if nothing else.

It's true that criminals, by definition, don't mind breaking the law. But it seems logical to me that this reality is no reason to give up trying, to make it easy for the would-be criminal to go about his nefarious business and compensate by hoping the rest of the citizenry is also armed and ready to shoot back (quite possibly injuring or killing other innocents in the process). Further, plenty of mass killers have obtained their firearms legally. You can say "they would have gotten them anyway, on the black market," and maybe it's true. Or maybe not. But that isn't how they're getting them, on the whole.

If there were an easy solution that everyone would agree with, it would have been implemented long ago. I don't think there is. But I think if everyone would listen a little bit to others' concerns, take a deep breath, and stop being so paranoid about others' intentions (as if Other Party were dominated by some Illuminati intent on destroying the populace), maybe some progress could be made in reducing the number of innocent people killed by firearms.

Because one thing I think everyone would agree with is that the number--higher than most any other developed country in the world--is too high.
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2015, 01:45:28 PM »

Great post(s) Captain, and I hope this brings about some civilized and fruitful conversation.

Firstly, I want to say that we have a serious problem in this country and it needs to be solved. No child should have to go to school afraid of getting shot. It's complete bullshit that it happens and it needs to end. No 9 year old girl doing homework in her bedroom should have to be afraid of a stray round popping through her window and killing her. It's complete bullshit that it happens and it needs to end.

ALL police should be forced to wear body cameras. This helps both the police and the citizens (far less fake complaints brought against police, and more accountability is put on the policemen themselves). Mental healthcare should be a number one priority in this country. Planned Parenthood type facilities for mental health should be put in every small and large city. We have sex education in school, we need mental health education. Panic, anxiety disorders, stress, paranoia, etc. Some kids are either too worried to admit it or have no idea they have a problem. There should be an easily accessible place for these kids to go to get help. Deeper background checks should be a norm, even mental health checks should be a prerequisite for owning a gun. Gun safety classes should be required for gun owners ever 3-5 years. Gun owners should be required to own gun-safes to hold their entire collection.

Also, the mindset of the modern American needs to be changed. Wanna know why scumbag networks like CNN blab the names of these killers? Because many Americans will eat it up because we're obsessed with this stuff. We can blame the networks for making these killers famous, but why are these networks doing it in the first place? Because many Americans give them the ratings they need to keep on truckin with their nonsense. Americans need to grow up. Instead of focussing on watching the world burn we need to focus on putting out the flames.

Secondly, I was a kid when my house was nearly broken into. My family lived in a really sketchy neighborhood and violence and vandalism were a norm. But on this night it became a disturbing reality. The door was being banged on, the doorhandle jiggling. Fortunately the group/gang left in their cars after my dad flicked on a bunch of lights. Needless to say, in a country full of guns and crime, I feel safer at night with a gun within easy access. This may seem foreign to many here, but in a country loaded to the teeth with guns, it does make sense to own one to feel safe* edit: want to add that this is solely my opinion. Not saying that everyone needs to own a gun to feel safe.

There are so many problems associated with why people kill. Aiming the blame solely on guns is fairly ignorant. That being said, being unwilling to accept that easy access to guns is part of the problem is also extremely ignorant. There are kids out there with the brain-chemistry/mindset that allows them to do wicked things. Sure, we should make it impossible for them to gain access to weapons, but we should also try to treat their mindset so bent on hurting others before they even think about picking up a weapon.

I'm very much in the same mindset of Luther. I'm in the middle of this debate, and I'm open for good reasoned solutions to this problem. Looking forward to hearing what others have to say.
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2015, 01:57:59 PM »

Yeah, nutcase like the shooter don't need to own 15 guns. Limit the number and type of guns for sale. Most gun stores seemed more focused on man hunting than animal hunting. Bolt action and certain types of handguns are fine.
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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2015, 02:38:28 PM »

For us here in Australia the solution is breathtakingly simple.
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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2015, 03:15:37 PM »

For us here in Australia the solution is breathtakingly simple.

Does anyone here know the obvious pros or cons associated with following Australia's lead here in America? I mean, given that there are 300+ million accessible firearms in the United States, I don't see the solution here being as breathtakingly simple...but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2015, 05:29:46 PM »

Nobody wants to outright ban guns like conservatives like to claim, it just shouldn't be so easy to get one.  People in this country are able to buy guns over the internet or at gun shows without being subject to a background check which I think is very dangerous.  We need to stop being selfish and worrying about what happens to our precious shiny toys in the wake of a tragedy and think about ways we can better protect people.
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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2015, 06:27:53 PM »

I don't see how MORE regulations will fix the problem. There are already hefty penalties for crimes committed with guns and even then they don't deter criminals. There's also the small issue which few have seen fit to reconcile, that being the fact that the cities with the highest levels of gun control (New York, Detroit, Chicago, Washington, DC, Los Angeles) are RIDDLED with gun-related crimes. You may think that an armed populace concerned with protecting itself won't do much to protect themselves and others from criminals but I guarantee you that playing into the criminal idea of a disarmed group of people (which is all the leftists/redcoats are doing) will also fail.

I'm aware that some think that this country could just become like their precious John Bull's Tyranny or STRAYA without any hitches but I can guarantee you it will not be that easy. See, the people who claim to be anti-gun are not really anti-gun. They're very PRO-gun; so pro-gun in fact that they would see no problem in allowing the monopoly on force - government (an entity which kills more people in one year than all criminals combined) - complete control over the guns. At the end of the day, it's not about gun control; it's about PEOPLE control. You infringe upon their right to defend themselves and they become more easily swayed and will subject themselves to any tyranny as long as it keeps them safe.

Oh, and the elephant in the room, perhaps?

I don't see any crocodile tears from the white suburbanites (and yes, it's mostly white suburbanites - you know, the people tripping over all of that illusory privilege) over gang violence in the cities. But when it comes to suburbia, you're all up in arms because someone dared besmirch you and violate your "NIMBY" rule. "You wanna kill each other in the cities? I'll catch it on the news." "You wanna kill each other in suburbia? OH, NOT IN MY BACK YARD!" Think about it.

America doesn't have a gun problem; America has a morality problem. Americans by and large are decadent, immoral, and degenerate. Americans have a lot of soul searching to do. And this is not liberal vs. conservative, left vs. right, white vs. black...it spans genders, races, religions, sexual orientations, political persuasions, and personal tastes.
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 06:55:02 PM »

Nobody wants to outright ban guns like conservatives like to claim, it just shouldn't be so easy to get one.  People in this country are able to buy guns over the internet or at gun shows without being subject to a background check which I think is very dangerous.  We need to stop being selfish and worrying about what happens to our precious shiny toys in the wake of a tragedy and think about ways we can better protect people.

Done!  If we want to "better protect people" -- the solution is easy.  Protect them.  Put a tank at every school.  Or whatever.  Done.  I'd sleep better, wouldn't you?

People need to start thinking logical about this stuff.  Stop with the agenda sh-t.  If a terrorist attacks us we protect the targets.  Planes, airports -- protected.  Sporting events -- protected.  Politicians -- protected.  Famous people hire security.  Hillbillies got rifles to protect their teenage daughters.

Listen, these imbeciles are going after some pretty soft targets -- just like those piece of sh-t terrorists.  But nobody ever fcking does anything -- why!!?!.  Think about why... seriously.  WHY?  They want the agenda?  That's all I can come up with.  We're PAWNS in moving their agenda.  Fill in the blank there....

Whether you want to go there or not, that's fine.  One step at a time.  But remember, all THEY are giving your kids at school are these stupid "Gun-Free Zone" signs.  Pretty sure that's the opposite of intelligent.  Those signs used to be funny to me, by the way.  But of course now they're screaming jewels of colossal ignorance that make me sick every time I see it.  I think there's even military locations/recruiting offices or whatever that have these stupid-signs.  Yeah.

Anyway... good luck with the "more regulation" band-aid approach.  Those make the Politician's buns tickle with glee.  And then be sure to add some more after the next incident.  And sleep well...
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 07:28:14 PM »

I don't see how MORE regulations will fix the problem.

Really? You don't see how more detailed background checks would prevent disgruntled people from obtaining weapons to harm others with?

I've been to gun shows with my friend who is a huge gun enthusiast. He literally just signed some paper work and was allowed to walk away with a weapon and all the ammunition he could buy.

There are already hefty penalties for crimes committed with guns and even then they don't deter criminals.

That's hardly unique to this situation. Should we just consider laws a lost cause entirely?

There's also the small issue which few have seen fit to reconcile, that being the fact that the cities with the highest levels of gun control (New York, Detroit, Chicago, Washington, DC, Los Angeles) are RIDDLED with gun-related crimes.

Right... why do you suppose they've had to create more gun control laws, then? Do you think people are committing more gun-related crimes because restrictions are greater.... like... just to spite the system or something?
What do you think the appropriate response is? Less gun control in these areas?

You may think that an armed populace concerned with protecting itself won't do much to protect themselves and others from criminals
Psychology, yo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

I don't see any crocodile tears from the white suburbanites (and yes, it's mostly white suburbanites - you know, the people tripping over all of that illusory privilege) over gang violence in the cities. But when it comes to suburbia, you're all up in arms because someone dared besmirch you and violate your "NIMBY" rule. "You wanna kill each other in the cities? I'll catch it on the news." "You wanna kill each other in suburbia? OH, NOT IN MY BACK YARD!" Think about it.

Okay, I've thought about it. Here's your answer: white suburbanites aren't usually faced with violence of this nature. When something happens in their immediate area, they become aware of the situation first-hand. It's obviously going to have an effect on them. Hearing about things on the news isn't the same as actually experiencing it. There's no conspiracy here, it's just basic stuff.
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2015, 07:33:38 PM »

America doesn't have a gun problem; America has a morality problem. Americans by and large are decadent, immoral, and degenerate.

Then you wouldn't want these decadent, immoral degenerates to have easy access to guns, would you?  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2015, 07:38:52 PM »

Done!  If we want to "better protect people" -- the solution is easy.  Protect them.  Put a tank at every school.  Or whatever.  Done.  I'd sleep better, wouldn't you?

Would I sleep better as a result of adding murder tools to a place where my children go to receive an education?
Would I sleep better as a result of creating an armed police force in schools?

Uh, let me get back to you on that one.

People need to start thinking logical about this stuff.  Stop with the agenda sh-t.  If a terrorist attacks us we protect the targets.  Planes, airports -- protected.  Sporting events -- protected.  Politicians -- protected.  Famous people hire security.  Hillbillies got rifles to protect their teenage daughters.

So... adding more regulations stops you from doing this how?
Okay, you've passed the test that says you're fit to carry a weapon. Now you can't use it or something... because you passed the test...?
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2015, 07:53:01 PM »

You may think that an armed populace concerned with protecting itself won't do much to protect themselves and others from criminals
Psychology, yo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

Actually, it would be fascinating to find out what effect (if any) being armed has on the bystander effect.
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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2015, 09:09:21 PM »

You may think that an armed populace concerned with protecting itself won't do much to protect themselves and others from criminals
Psychology, yo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

Actually, it would be fascinating to find out what effect (if any) being armed has on the bystander effect.
From "4 Pro-Gun Arguments We're Sick of Hearing"
By Amanda Marcotte on Rolling Stone.com http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/4-pro-gun-arguments-were-sick-of-hearing-20151001

""The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

If you prefer pithy sayings to hard evidence, I can see why this would be convincing. But if you look at the real world, you'll find that far from being our only hope, good guys with guns are barely any help at all. No mass shootings in the past 30 years have been stopped by an armed civilian; in 1982, an armed civilian successfully killed a shooter, but it was only after he committed his crime.

It's not that there aren't enough guns, either. There are as many guns as people in this country, and fully a third of people are armed. Even when shootings happen in gun-happy places, where armed people are sure to be nearby, this vigilante scenario simply doesn't work. That's because pulling a gun out and shooting back in the chaos of a mass shooting just makes things worse, as was discovered when a would-be hero at the 2011 shooting of Gabby Giffords very nearly shot the wrong man. (The actual shooter was tackled by an elderly man.)

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« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2015, 09:30:09 PM »

That's an interesting article, ORR.

I have been thinking about the results of weapons on the bystander effect, and this is the conclusion I have come to: having less people armed would mean there would be less diffusion of responsibility. If everyone has a gun, people will feel less like they need to intervene because they can safely assume other people present are also armed. If only a few people are armed, then you aren't able to safely make that assumption, and thus the diffusion of responsibility would be lessened.
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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2015, 10:57:56 PM »

Is football still played by the rules of 1905 ?

Are women still denied the vote ?

Is slavery still legal ?

No ? Then why do a small cadre of very, very stupid people (NRA, that's you) still insist in applying a 1791 ruling to events in 2015 ?  The 2nd Amendment doesn't, as many assume, provide for the right to bear arms - that's incidental - rather it provided for something the US desperately needed at the time, "a well-regulated militia". Irrespective of whether any such militia is still required (NRA, here's a clue - the US now has an army, navy and airforce), I'm thinking that going into a classroom and blowing away completely innocent people just because... well, just because, kinda strains the definition of "well-regulated".
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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2015, 11:27:53 PM »

Is football still played by the rules of 1905 ?

Are women still denied the vote ?

Is slavery still legal ?

No ? Then why do a small cadre of very, very stupid people (NRA, that's you) still insist in applying a 1791 ruling to events in 2015 ?  The 2nd Amendment doesn't, as many assume, provide for the right to bear arms - that's incidental - rather it provided for something the US desperately needed at the time, "a well-regulated militia". Irrespective of whether any such militia is still required (NRA, here's a clue - the US now has an army, navy and airforce), I'm thinking that going into a classroom and blowing away completely innocent people just because... well, just because, kinda strains the definition of "well-regulated".

Right on Andrew. You got it right there.
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« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2015, 11:51:03 PM »

It's catch -22; if I lived in a country where everyone else had a gun, I'd feel a lot safer owning one myself.
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« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2015, 12:05:19 AM »

Is football still played by the rules of 1905 ?

Are women still denied the vote ?

Is slavery still legal ?

No ? Then why do a small cadre of very, very stupid people (NRA, that's you) still insist in applying a 1791 ruling to events in 2015 ?  The 2nd Amendment doesn't, as many assume, provide for the right to bear arms - that's incidental - rather it provided for something the US desperately needed at the time, "a well-regulated militia". Irrespective of whether any such militia is still required (NRA, here's a clue - the US now has an army, navy and airforce), I'm thinking that going into a classroom and blowing away completely innocent people just because... well, just because, kinda strains the definition of "well-regulated".

Right on Andrew. You got it right there.
Thank you Andrew!
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« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2015, 12:09:08 AM »

Is football still played by the rules of 1905 ?

Are women still denied the vote ?

Is slavery still legal ?

No ? Then why do a small cadre of very, very stupid people (NRA, that's you) still insist in applying a 1791 ruling to events in 2015 ?  The 2nd Amendment doesn't, as many assume, provide for the right to bear arms - that's incidental - rather it provided for something the US desperately needed at the time, "a well-regulated militia". Irrespective of whether any such militia is still required (NRA, here's a clue - the US now has an army, navy and airforce), I'm thinking that going into a classroom and blowing away completely innocent people just because... well, just because, kinda strains the definition of "well-regulated".
More from Amanda Marcotte's article, echoing Andrew's thoughts:

4. "Second Amendment, baby."

Here's a good time to remind everyone that the Second Amendment was written by slaveholders before we had electricity, much less the kind of weaponry that would-be murderers can buy today. But sure, if you think it's that precious, we can compromise: If you love the Second Amendment that much, feel free to live in a powdered wig and sh*t in a chamberpot while trying to survive off what you can kill with an 18th century musket. In exchange, let those of us living in this century pass some laws so we can feel safe going to class, or the movies, or anywhere without worrying that some maladjusted man will try to get his revenge by raining death on random strangers.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/4-pro-gun-arguments-were-sick-of-hearing-20151001#ixzz3nfyLUVYk
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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2015, 05:31:11 AM »

America doesn't have a gun problem, it has a people problem. 

As The Real Beach Boy pointed out, some of the areas that have the strictest gun laws are also the most violent. 

If you restrict guns, the criminals will still find ways to obtain them.  Drugs are, for the most part illegal right?  And we still have a huge drug problem. 

There's a lack of accountability in the United States.  It's always somebody else's fault. 

If a guy shots up a school, it's the gun's fault.  If a career criminal dies while resisting his 20th arrest, it's the Police's fault.  If a child is failing math, it's the teacher's fault.  If somebody dies of lung cancer from a lifetime of smoking, it's the cigarette company's fault.  If somebody is obese, it's McDonald's fault.  Some teenager shots up a high school, it must be the music he listens to.  And so on, and so on. 

Somewhere along the line, we've grown soft, and people stopped taking responsibility for their actions.  As an American in his mid 30s, I fear for the future of this country.  We're too soft on crime, too PC, and no responsible enough.  We need a culture change.  And disarming the law abiding, IMO, will not help. 
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« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2015, 05:45:51 AM »

Yep.  I believe it starts at birth, KDS.  Actually before that -- or whenever they've decided it's ok to murder.  The American society has systematically, legally and categorically relieved ourselves of the most basic and natural of all responsibilities.  And it just rolls out from there.

And if you live in a country where you have abortion BUT don't have mass-shootings (yet) -- nobody cares.  America is different -- we represent an idea, one that pushes the boundaries.  So please, save it.
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« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2015, 06:33:52 AM »

Really? You don't see how more detailed background checks would prevent disgruntled people from obtaining weapons to harm others with?

I've been to gun shows with my friend who is a huge gun enthusiast. He literally just signed some paper work and was allowed to walk away with a weapon and all the ammunition he could buy.

No, I don't...because people who have used guns to commit evil acts have in almost every case passed the checks. The background checks are only an excuse used by those who want further control of people who don't need it or desire it.

That's hardly unique to this situation. Should we just consider laws a lost cause entirely?

More laws have not made man more free. Regulating the economy has destroyed the economy. Regulating drugs has increased gang violence. Regulating guns has increased gun violence. You do the math.

Right... why do you suppose they've had to create more gun control laws, then? Do you think people are committing more gun-related crimes because restrictions are greater.... like... just to spite the system or something?
What do you think the appropriate response is? Less gun control in these areas?

Those laws have been created because of "good intentions." They still operate under the assumption that criminals will magically stop being criminals once the right laws are passed. Criminals are committing the crimes because they know that people aren't legally allowed to defend themselves in those areas. The appropriate response would be to stop playing into the hands of criminals and letting individuals defend themselves, especially in unsafe parts of the country. The ownership of guns, just like the ownership of drugs, does not create victims. When restrictions are put into place victims are created. If I lived in Chicago I would want a gun on me at all times, and not because I want to go around shooting people - because I would feel safer with a potential deterrent on my hip.

Okay, I've thought about it. Here's your answer: white suburbanites aren't usually faced with violence of this nature. When something happens in their immediate area, they become aware of the situation first-hand. It's obviously going to have an effect on them. Hearing about things on the news isn't the same as actually experiencing it. There's no conspiracy here, it's just basic stuff.

It's because white suburbanites are commonly pussies, first and foremost. Case in point, talk to law-abiding individuals who live in big cities, say, Philadelphia - I've met VERY few people who live in Philly (and we're talking the BAD parts of Philly, like West and North Philly) who wanted more gun control in those cities even with all the gang violence. No, they want the opportunity to defend themselves from those assholes. But the white suburbanites just don't care about that. They don't care about minorities having access to means of self-defense. All the gun control laws in the world and who ends up being disproportionately targeted AND more harshly sentenced on top of it? Minorities.

So progressive, I know.

Then you wouldn't want these decadent, immoral degenerates to have easy access to guns, would you?  Wink

It is why I want people who still possess a moral code to have easier access to them.

Is football still played by the rules of 1905 ?

Are women still denied the vote ?

Is slavery still legal ?

No ? Then why do a small cadre of very, very stupid people (NRA, that's you) still insist in applying a 1791 ruling to events in 2015 ?  The 2nd Amendment doesn't, as many assume, provide for the right to bear arms - that's incidental - rather it provided for something the US desperately needed at the time, "a well-regulated militia". Irrespective of whether any such militia is still required (NRA, here's a clue - the US now has an army, navy and airforce), I'm thinking that going into a classroom and blowing away completely innocent people just because... well, just because, kinda strains the definition of "well-regulated".

Comparing gun ownership to women being denied the vote or slavery is an apples and oranges comparison - gun ownership does not lead to a victim. If we're going to pick and choose what "ancient" rights should be done away with, we'd better be careful. I mean hey, stuff like freedom of speech, the right to be secure from unlawful searches and seizures, the right to face your accuser, and the right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment are also so 1790s as well. Do they also have no place in modern, progressive PC society? A lot of politicians think so...and so do a lot of Americans. THAT is why the right to self-defense is important now, more than it has been in a LONG time.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 06:34:51 AM by The Real Beach Boy » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2015, 06:49:52 AM »

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