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Author Topic: Your SMiLE mix...for the fun of it  (Read 73465 times)
zosobird
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« Reply #350 on: January 08, 2016, 08:28:55 AM »

Mujan,

- Jules Siegel was the Saturday Evening Post writer. In the Fusion article that you read, Vosse mentions going over to BW for dinner and hearing GV before it came out...one of the people there was "a guy from the Saturday Evening Post named Jules Siegal - very obnoxious writer." It is also of note Siegel talks about his exit in third person in GSHG. In Carlin's book "Catch a Wave," on pg 118-119 there is an account of Vosse having to tell Siegel he was couldn't come around anymore because Brian thought Siegel's girlfriend (and future wife) was a witch and messing with his mind through ESP like Phil Spector.


- I also don't know what to make of all the Fire tapes being burned. Part of me thinks that was a put on by Brian, the other part of me thinks he did indeed destroy a tape, but if so, must have just been a mix of the master take.


- I think the hipness is a key element and can't just be dismissed. '66/'67 was a time when the BB's weren't necessarily "cool." You have Dennis opening up about stripe shirts, etc. which Surf's Up came out of. The name "SU" was very reflective of that sentiment. You have all the internal bickering about the formula and losing old audiences, and playing hits, a perception of the BBs being greedy with their lawsuit/brother records, a new fancy rolls royce, even discussions of breaking up the band. Brian was consciously trying to make art and appeal to the hip crowd.  He was surrounding himself with "hip" people and things, but it seems he eventually got tired of that/didn't care anymore and kicked everyone out.


- Case for Wind Chimes being related to the Elements at one time:
VOSSE: "Wind Chimes was the first dub off the Smile album that I heard: at that time it was considered a tentatively finished product. He was doing a four part suite called "The Elements," and the fire section of it was all done with percussion instruments. It was like Stravinsky. It was beautifully done, and lasted about two minutes..You've heard all about that thing with the tape and the fire and destroying it.. Well, that happened but it doesn't mean anything. But at the same time he did that, he took the tail end of "Wind Chimes" - which the way it was originally recorded was, again much more beautiful than on Smiley Smile - and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano; and, a track at a time, did little music-box overdubs; and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into... I've never heard anything like it.."

I find it very telling that in context of talking about the Elements, Vosse immediately talks about the TAG to Wind Chimes (a piano piece), acknowledging that at the beginning of the Smile sessions, Wind Chimes was considered "tentatively finished"....but then later, when the Elements came along, Brian all the sudden "took the tail end of WC..." and tinkered with it. Also of note is that Vosse segues the conversation from Wind Chimes right into recording Water sounds. Supporting the WC tag as the referenced "air" element is Brian in Preiss' book saying "there was a cut, an instrumental. We never finished that." But a cut! they at least recorded it.

I think a case can be made that the WC tag was the unfinished instrumental piano piece at one time slated for "air." It may not even be mix we know, which was on the "tentatively finished WC" in August '66, which as Vosse and Brian suggest they were still tinkering with it. Further, a variation of the WC tag did end up being attempted as the HV tag to pt 1, which seems like a salvaging of sorts of "the Elements" after it fell apart. Why would breathing chants be the slated air element if it was reported by multiple sources as being the air element being a recorded piano instrumental?



- The case for Workshop NOT being related to the Elements:
VOSSE "One night we were over at his house and he started playing You Are My Sunshine slowly, almost like an R&B thing, just slowing down the tempo, really mournful. And we were all a little high, I guess, and he started singing "you were my sunshine": he put the song in the past tense, and he was trying to find his bass rhythm for it, and in doing that he found this weird little riff that just sort of developed and it hit him, man, right then, that he wanted a barnyard, he wanted Old MacDonald's famr, he wanted all that stuff. So he immediately got Van Dyke over and they did a chart for "You Were My Sunshine". It's so hard to remember exactly what he wound up doing, because he changed things so much, but he wound up writing a clarinet part for it which is impossible to describe: a whole different sound that he found in the middle of all this, and it developed into an instrumental thing with barnyard sounds, people sawing (he had people in the studio sawing on wood) and Van Dyke being a duck - and it was marvelous. It made you smile and at the same time touched you."

Label of "I'm in Great Shape" on box or reel (forget which one)

Again, the only support i've seen for Workshop being an element is Carol Kaye's comment. Is there any reason you view Workshop as the earth element besides you thinking it sounds good there? What do you use for IIGS then?


The case for VT being the earth element:
From WIKI (don't have Neil Alpert's "That Music Was Actually Created"):  According to Domenic Priore, conversations between him and Van Dyke Parks have told that "The Elements" were meant to invoke the increasing attention to health, fitness, and environmentalism by anti-war peace movements. VT fits that bill.

BW in '67:"I want to turn people on to vegetables, good natural food, organic food. Health is an important element in spiritual enlightenment. But I do not want to be pompous about it, so we will engage in a satirical approach."

SMiLE artwork: "My Vega-Tables"/the Elements connection.

Peter Brown stating that when McCartney visited the US in April 1967 and stopped in to see Brian at the studio, he was working on "The Four Elements Suite" (VT was the song they were recording)

VDP saying VT was the only part of the Elements he worked on

All that said, there is evidence that VT is not an element. i am of the opinion that VT was at one time considered part of the Elements, then got spun off into its own song.

Also, regarding the connection of Bicycle Rider to VT (specifcally the fade), listen at 1:40 on the SMiLE Sessions D4T1...you can hear that piano theme, but it was dropped before the final take. Also, the tubular bells/vibes are playing a variation of those same notes. Further, the remake of the VT ended up in the bridge to Wonderful on Smiley Smile, where the BR variation is much more apparent. BR seems to have been the one section that got reworked and auditioned in more songs than any other SMiLE tune. It has been attempted in HV, DYLW, CE, VT, and Wonderful (SS)
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Emily
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« Reply #351 on: January 08, 2016, 09:03:39 AM »

A year ago, I spent two weeks in France with 4 other adults and all the related children. If you asked each of us to give a narration of the two weeks, you would get a different story from each; if you asked about a specific incident and our analyses of it, you would get different answers from each. None would be less creditable than the other; we just have different perspectives. If you asked two of us why or how a third did something, you'd get two different answers, unless the "something" was an act that we were both present for and the third person announced why he/she was doing it at the time. Otherwise, if asked why Frank went on his own to the store on Tuesday, he may have said one true reason to me, one true reason to another person, and we'd both bring in our own thoughts based on our perspectives on Frank and the circumstances on Tuesday.
In other words, three articles can say three different things and all be correct.

Also, I've noticed that Smile discussions tend to use the word "air" to discuss that element. Is that because Brian Wilson or Van Dyke Parks used that word? Because that element is also frequently referred to as "wind."
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zosobird
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« Reply #352 on: January 08, 2016, 09:26:23 AM »

A year ago, I spent two weeks in France with 4 other adults and all the related children. If you asked each of us to give a narration of the two weeks, you would get a different story from each; if you asked about a specific incident and our analyses of it, you would get different answers from each. None would be less creditable than the other; we just have different perspectives. If you asked two of us why or how a third did something, you'd get two different answers, unless the "something" was an act that we were both present for and the third person announced why he/she was doing it at the time. Otherwise, if asked why Frank went on his own to the store on Tuesday, he may have said one true reason to me, one true reason to another person, and we'd both bring in our own thoughts based on our perspectives on Frank and the circumstances on Tuesday.
In other words, three articles can say three different things and all be correct.

Also, I've noticed that Smile discussions tend to use the word "air" to discuss that element. Is that because Brian Wilson or Van Dyke Parks used that word? Because that element is also frequently referred to as "wind."

Thanks for that clarification, wind as the element makes wind chimes even more of a candidate. But as has been discussed, perspectives, time, and the dynamics of any series of events result in different recounts.  fwiw, Anderle specifically refers to this element as "air."
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Bicyclerider
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« Reply #353 on: January 08, 2016, 09:37:37 AM »

Brian referred to the Elements suite as consisting of earth, air, fire and water (LLVS - article from April 67, and I think also in the Teen Set article on Fire written by Vosse).
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soniclovenoize
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« Reply #354 on: January 08, 2016, 09:38:16 AM »


- Case for Wind Chimes being related to the Elements at one time:
VOSSE: "Wind Chimes was the first dub off the Smile album that I heard: at that time it was considered a tentatively finished product. He was doing a four part suite called "The Elements," and the fire section of it was all done with percussion instruments. It was like Stravinsky. It was beautifully done, and lasted about two minutes..You've heard all about that thing with the tape and the fire and destroying it.. Well, that happened but it doesn't mean anything. But at the same time he did that, he took the tail end of "Wind Chimes" - which the way it was originally recorded was, again much more beautiful than on Smiley Smile - and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano; and, a track at a time, did little music-box overdubs; and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into... I've never heard anything like it.."

I find it very telling that in context of talking about the Elements, Vosse immediately talks about the TAG to Wind Chimes (a piano piece), acknowledging that at the beginning of the Smile sessions, Wind Chimes was considered "tentatively finished"....but then later, when the Elements came along, Brian all the sudden "took the tail end of WC..." and tinkered with it. Also of note is that Vosse segues the conversation from Wind Chimes right into recording Water sounds. Supporting the WC tag as the referenced "air" element is Brian in Preiss' book saying "there was a cut, an instrumental. We never finished that." But a cut! they at least recorded it.

I think a case can be made that the WC tag was the unfinished instrumental piano piece at one time slated for "air." It may not even be mix we know, which was on the "tentatively finished WC" in August '66, which as Vosse and Brian suggest they were still tinkering with it. Further, a variation of the WC tag did end up being attempted as the HV tag to pt 1, which seems like a salvaging of sorts of "the Elements" after it fell apart. Why would breathing chants be the slated air element if it was reported by multiple sources as being the air element being a recorded piano instrumental?


This is what I was saying earlier.  

What is the major segment of Vege-Tables not included on the April Assembly tape?  The fade.  What if The Vege-Tables Fade = Earth?  

Something like this: http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/DjtTh3wN/file.html
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Emily
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« Reply #355 on: January 08, 2016, 09:43:07 AM »

Brian referred to the Elements suite as consisting of earth, air, fire and water (LLVS - article from April 67, and I think also in the Teen Set article on Fire written by Vosse).
Thanks for that.
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Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #356 on: January 08, 2016, 09:43:25 AM »

A year ago, I spent two weeks in France with 4 other adults and all the related children. If you asked each of us to give a narration of the two weeks, you would get a different story from each; if you asked about a specific incident and our analyses of it, you would get different answers from each. None would be less creditable than the other; we just have different perspectives. If you asked two of us why or how a third did something, you'd get two different answers, unless the "something" was an act that we were both present for and the third person announced why he/she was doing it at the time. Otherwise, if asked why Frank went on his own to the store on Tuesday, he may have said one true reason to me, one true reason to another person, and we'd both bring in our own thoughts based on our perspectives on Frank and the circumstances on Tuesday.
In other words, three articles can say three different things and all be correct.

Also, I've noticed that Smile discussions tend to use the word "air" to discuss that element. Is that because Brian Wilson or Van Dyke Parks used that word? Because that element is also frequently referred to as "wind."

Yes indeed. Even tho I'm not Christian I find analysing the gospels fun for the same reason. And in school, doing document based questions where you have to analyze a series of documents and piece together a conclusion. It's fun stuff. That said, it's important to note where one source significantly differs from others. That's not signaling them out as wrong it's just something worth noting. I get the feeling that's why you bring this anecdote up
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
Emily
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« Reply #357 on: January 08, 2016, 09:48:05 AM »

A year ago, I spent two weeks in France with 4 other adults and all the related children. If you asked each of us to give a narration of the two weeks, you would get a different story from each; if you asked about a specific incident and our analyses of it, you would get different answers from each. None would be less creditable than the other; we just have different perspectives. If you asked two of us why or how a third did something, you'd get two different answers, unless the "something" was an act that we were both present for and the third person announced why he/she was doing it at the time. Otherwise, if asked why Frank went on his own to the store on Tuesday, he may have said one true reason to me, one true reason to another person, and we'd both bring in our own thoughts based on our perspectives on Frank and the circumstances on Tuesday.
In other words, three articles can say three different things and all be correct.

Also, I've noticed that Smile discussions tend to use the word "air" to discuss that element. Is that because Brian Wilson or Van Dyke Parks used that word? Because that element is also frequently referred to as "wind."

Yes indeed. Even tho I'm not Christian I find analysing the gospels fun for the same reason. And in school, doing document based questions where you have to analyze a series of documents and piece together a conclusion. It's fun stuff. That said, it's important to note where one source significantly differs from others. That's not signaling them out as wrong it's just something worth noting. I get the feeling that's why you bring this anecdote up
Good point about the gospels! Perfect example.
I absolutely agree that differences should be looked at when trying to develop a synthesis.
I guess I mainly brought it up not in response to any one post, but in response to a feeling I get that a lot of people try to find one right answer: it's Mike Love because x said this; it's Capitol because y did this...
I think you're right that there were a lot of things happening and they all played different roles in developing what occurred and one person might have insight into one aspect and another might have insight into another; and because their insight differs is not an indication that one is right and the other is wrong.
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Bicyclerider
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« Reply #358 on: January 08, 2016, 10:25:36 AM »


- Case for Wind Chimes being related to the Elements at one time:
VOSSE: "Wind Chimes was the first dub off the Smile album that I heard: at that time it was considered a tentatively finished product. He was doing a four part suite called "The Elements," and the fire section of it was all done with percussion instruments. It was like Stravinsky. It was beautifully done, and lasted about two minutes..You've heard all about that thing with the tape and the fire and destroying it.. Well, that happened but it doesn't mean anything. But at the same time he did that, he took the tail end of "Wind Chimes" - which the way it was originally recorded was, again much more beautiful than on Smiley Smile - and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano; and, a track at a time, did little music-box overdubs; and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into... I've never heard anything like it.."

I find it very telling that in context of talking about the Elements, Vosse immediately talks about the TAG to Wind Chimes (a piano piece), acknowledging that at the beginning of the Smile sessions, Wind Chimes was considered "tentatively finished"....but then later, when the Elements came along, Brian all the sudden "took the tail end of WC..." and tinkered with it. Also of note is that Vosse segues the conversation from Wind Chimes right into recording Water sounds. Supporting the WC tag as the referenced "air" element is Brian in Preiss' book saying "there was a cut, an instrumental. We never finished that." But a cut! they at least recorded it.

I think a case can be made that the WC tag was the unfinished instrumental piano piece at one time slated for "air." It may not even be mix we know, which was on the "tentatively finished WC" in August '66, which as Vosse and Brian suggest they were still tinkering with it. Further, a variation of the WC tag did end up being attempted as the HV tag to pt 1, which seems like a salvaging of sorts of "the Elements" after it fell apart. Why would breathing chants be the slated air element if it was reported by multiple sources as being the air element being a recorded piano instrumental?


This is what I was saying earlier.  

What is the major segment of Vege-Tables not included on the April Assembly tape?  The fade.  What if The Vege-Tables Fade = Earth?  

Something like this: http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/DjtTh3wN/file.html

The fade wasn't recorded yet on the assembly tape (which dates to March) . . . so the vegetables cornucopia version was the original planned "earth" (according to the Holmes illustration based on Van Dyke's information), and there was no fade on that other than the same piano as the verses continuing.  The fade recorded in April was clearly marked as the Vegetables tag, not earth . . . or The Elements.
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soniclovenoize
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« Reply #359 on: January 08, 2016, 10:36:30 AM »

Well, none of it was marked Earth or The Elements... 
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Emily
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« Reply #360 on: January 08, 2016, 10:38:26 AM »

Hey Smile mix experts,
Would any of you be willing to list which versions of the music you're using, and where I could find them (if not on the Good Vibrations or Smile Sessions box sets)?


Solved.  Smiley
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 12:40:13 PM by Emily » Logged
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #361 on: January 08, 2016, 11:33:22 AM »

Mujan,

- Jules Siegel was the Saturday Evening Post writer. In the Fusion article that you read, Vosse mentions going over to BW for dinner and hearing GV before it came out...one of the people there was "a guy from the Saturday Evening Post named Jules Siegal - very obnoxious writer." It is also of note Siegel talks about his exit in third person in GSHG. In Carlin's book "Catch a Wave," on pg 118-119 there is an account of Vosse having to tell Siegel he was couldn't come around anymore because Brian thought Siegel's girlfriend (and future wife) was a witch and messing with his mind through ESP like Phil Spector.

Thanks for clarifying. Very strange and frankly annoying hed refer to himself in the third person like that. Really unnecessary and just confuses things. I read Vosse months ago so admittedly that detail slipped my mind.

Quote
- I also don't know what to make of all the Fire tapes being burned. Part of me thinks that was a put on by Brian, the other part of me thinks he did indeed destroy a tape, but if so, must have just been a mix of the master take.

I wonder if there was supposed to be that fire crickling sound effect on the real tape--as heard in UM17--and that wasnt used in TSS because it wasnt done that way in BWPS. An interesting thought...

Quote
- I think the hipness is a key element and can't just be dismissed. '66/'67 was a time when the BB's weren't necessarily "cool." You have Dennis opening up about stripe shirts, etc. which Surf's Up came out of. The name "SU" was very reflective of that sentiment. You have all the internal bickering about the formula and losing old audiences, and playing hits, a perception of the BBs being greedy with their lawsuit/brother records, a new fancy rolls royce, even discussions of breaking up the band. Brian was consciously trying to make art and appeal to the hip crowd.  He was surrounding himself with "hip" people and things, but it seems he eventually got tired of that/didn't care anymore and kicked everyone out.

It is, but the WAY Siegel talks about it, and at length, is really obnoxious. It just comes off as "Im cooler than you" and unneeded. I do understand the need to emphasize Brian wanted to be part of the hip crowd tho, just those passages couldve been written better.

Quote
- Case for Wind Chimes being related to the Elements at one time:
VOSSE: "Wind Chimes was the first dub off the Smile album that I heard: at that time it was considered a tentatively finished product. He was doing a four part suite called "The Elements," and the fire section of it was all done with percussion instruments. It was like Stravinsky. It was beautifully done, and lasted about two minutes..You've heard all about that thing with the tape and the fire and destroying it.. Well, that happened but it doesn't mean anything. But at the same time he did that, he took the tail end of "Wind Chimes" - which the way it was originally recorded was, again much more beautiful than on Smiley Smile - and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano; and, a track at a time, did little music-box overdubs; and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into... I've never heard anything like it.."

Ill have to revisit the article or my post about it, but I recall he talks about Elements and WC at two different points in the article, rather than all at once as youve got it here. In any case, if WC was Air...WHY WOULDNT HE JUST CLARIFY THAT? Thats the big burden of proof that you WC as Air theorists cant seem to hurdle. Its listed seperately on the tracklist from the Elements, unlike Fire, the Elements isnt written on the tape box or called out during studio chatter of WC. You can point to all these vague "well, Vosse mentions WC sorta close to where he mentions the elements" non-arguments you want, but its hardly definitive. It certainly doesnt come close to overriding the proof against it. Plus, I take Anderle's testimony about the chanting sessions he would have them do pretty seriously. Its just hard for me to believe in a short instrumental Fire, a short chanting Water, and then a big fully vocalized and instrumented WC and VT as Air and Earth. Its not consistent, it doesnt flow or give equal weight to all the elements. So not only does the evidence go against this theory but so does common sense. Ive debated this at length with Holy Bee on the TSS board, and my other disagreements can be found there. Anyway, the burden of proof is on the WC advocates; my official position is Air was never made, not officially, but Breathing is almost certainly at least a working idea for it and the closest we'll get.

Quote
I find it very telling that in context of talking about the Elements, Vosse immediately talks about the TAG to Wind Chimes (a piano piece), acknowledging that at the beginning of the Smile sessions, Wind Chimes was considered "tentatively finished"....but then later, when the Elements came along, Brian all the sudden "took the tail end of WC..." and tinkered with it. Also of note is that Vosse segues the conversation from Wind Chimes right into recording Water sounds. Supporting the WC tag as the referenced "air" element is Brian in Preiss' book saying "there was a cut, an instrumental. We never finished that." But a cut! they at least recorded it.

And just as many people claim that was the Second Day version of Dada. Again, perhaps I need to revisit Vosse, but its my understanding that he talks about quite a few tracks in no particular order. Plus, he said the Water recordings were his idea not Brian's, and that Brian said he could do a whole song out of them--but once again there's no specifc "this is the Water/Air element" to be found. Its possible these Water recordings were meant to fall under the umbrella of The Elements in the tracklist, but then you cant have it both ways. Why two, but not the other two? Either every element was a seperate track or none were but you cant have it both ways. Since we'll never know for sure, I just vote with my ears. Does WC make me immediately think "Air!" like Fire makes me think Fire? Not at all. But Breathing certainly does. Why wouldnt the lyrics of WC be about the air/wind and what it can do, as opposed to feeling lonely but tranquil watching wind chimes? More importantly, why does it have lyrics AT ALL when Fire and presumably these water recordings didnt? Also, if you take away the H&V intro which wasnt added until later, and the other 2 or 3 elements, what is The Elements on the tracklist--just a monotonous droning of Fire for a minute? Thats below Brian's strandards for a track around this time. Sorry, but I just dont buy it.

Quote
I think a case can be made that the WC tag was the unfinished instrumental piano piece at one time slated for "air." It may not even be mix we know, which was on the "tentatively finished WC" in August '66, which as Vosse and Brian suggest they were still tinkering with it. Further, a variation of the WC tag did end up being attempted as the HV tag to pt 1, which seems like a salvaging of sorts of "the Elements" after it fell apart. Why would breathing chants be the slated air element if it was reported by multiple sources as being the air element being a recorded piano instrumental?

Or, you know, it could just be more recycling of other pieces into H&V as happened with OMP Worms and others. Thats not proof of WC being air. Not at all. Multiple times? As far as I can tell, it was only ONCE. From a man whose memory is notoriously faulty especially regarding SMiLE, and who's also an infamously bad interviewee who will say anything to get the thing over with. Im also far more willing to believe that piano is something we've never heard--perhaps accompanying the Breathing--or Second Day than WC.

Quote
- The case for Workshop NOT being related to the Elements:
VOSSE "One night we were over at his house and he started playing You Are My Sunshine slowly, almost like an R&B thing, just slowing down the tempo, really mournful. And we were all a little high, I guess, and he started singing "you were my sunshine": he put the song in the past tense, and he was trying to find his bass rhythm for it, and in doing that he found this weird little riff that just sort of developed and it hit him, man, right then, that he wanted a barnyard, he wanted Old MacDonald's famr, he wanted all that stuff. So he immediately got Van Dyke over and they did a chart for "You Were My Sunshine". It's so hard to remember exactly what he wound up doing, because he changed things so much, but he wound up writing a clarinet part for it which is impossible to describe: a whole different sound that he found in the middle of all this, and it developed into an instrumental thing with barnyard sounds, people sawing (he had people in the studio sawing on wood) and Van Dyke being a duck - and it was marvelous. It made you smile and at the same time touched you."

Label of "I'm in Great Shape" on box or reel (forget which one)

Again, the only support i've seen for Workshop being an element is Carol Kaye's comment. Is there any reason you view Workshop as the earth element besides you thinking it sounds good there? What do you use for IIGS then?

Dude...seriously...whats with your hard-on for proving Workshop isnt Earth? I literally JUST SAID that I dont think Earth exists. All I said was Workshop is something people could conceivably use as a placeholder for Earth since there's nothing else that really fits as well, musically speaking. By using Workshop, you have a balanced track of 2 instrumentals and 2 a capellas of about equal length which convey the feeling of their respective elements very well--certainly better than the confused, clashing jumble on TSS and that youre proposing. Its a simple aesthetics choice. I dont understand why youre so gung-ho to prove me wrong on this when I admitted its probably not what Brian wouldve done. At the end of the day tho, there is no Air, Water and Earth. But Undersea Chant, Breathing and Workshop fit the bill incredibly well--better than anything else. While theres a good deal of proof and common sense suggesting those first two were rough sketches of elements, that last one there isnt. But again, it works, and it works better than anything else we have available.

What do I use for IIGS? Ive stated numerous times I believe it was probably a mish mash of unused H&V ideas, like Do a Lot, maybe All Day, and Barnyard. Personally, my dream version would be 2 verses with GS instrumentation and new lyrics for the second verse, choruses of Do A Lot, and a fade of Barnyard. But we'll never get it--IIGS doesnt exist, and is literally the most mysterious track on the album. There was a vocal session that couldve maybe answered this conundrum but thats long gone. Anyway, I didnt like the Frankensteined GS I had on Olorin so for Romestamo I just decided to scrap the track entirely. Baring more material to work with, and more solid proof of what to go on, its a completely unfinished track with nothing to do to salvage it. You can say "BUT THATS NOT WHAT BRIAN WOULDVE DONE!" And yes. Youre right. But Brian could/wouldve used the Boys and Wrecking Crew to record more material to flesh it out Im sure. So to me, this is an issue of practicality. Do you waste 2~4 minutes on a bad track thats just a collage of some of the worst SMiLE pieces, or scrap it and make room for better material from other songs? For me, that choice is a no brainer. And IDC if someone decides to go the other route, but dont act all holier than thou about it. This song isnt even close to being done, and to include it just to say you did is...misguided to say the least...at least in my humble opinion.

Quote
The case for VT being the earth element:
From WIKI (don't have Neil Alpert's "That Music Was Actually Created"):  According to Domenic Priore, conversations between him and Van Dyke Parks have told that "The Elements" were meant to invoke the increasing attention to health, fitness, and environmentalism by anti-war peace movements. VT fits that bill.

BW in '67:"I want to turn people on to vegetables, good natural food, organic food. Health is an important element in spiritual enlightenment. But I do not want to be pompous about it, so we will engage in a satirical approach."

SMiLE artwork: "My Vega-Tables"/the Elements connection.

Peter Brown stating that when McCartney visited the US in April 1967 and stopped in to see Brian at the studio, he was working on "The Four Elements Suite" (VT was the song they were recording)

VDP saying VT was the only part of the Elements he worked on

All that said, there is evidence that VT is not an element. i am of the opinion that VT was at one time considered part of the Elements, then got spun off into its own song.

Once again, Im not sure why you feel the need to drudge this up. Ive stated before, theres plenty of evidence VT couldve, at one time at least, been Earth. But I think theres some evidence it wasnt too. Like the tracklist, how its not labelled an Element on the tape boxes, studio chatter or session sheets, etc. Again too, for me its a question of aesthetics. I personally hated the Elements suite in BWPS/TSS and think it drags the whole album down, as well as there's not enough evidence to convince me it was a vintage idea and 3 suites wasnt even possible in 1967, and I think theres far more evidence the 2nd suite is vintage. Anyway, I dont think a song consisting of Fire, two sets of chants and then a fully vocalized, fully instrumented segment sounds very good at all. I also think the connection between Vegetables and Earth is pretty strenuous. Listening to VT I dont think "Earth!" as Fire and the chants make me think their respective elements. I think of a funny silly song about something most people dont usually sing about. I think it works better in an Americana context about our agricultural history and as a companion piece to the equally humorous H&V than as an element. Then theres that whole thing about the star Vega in the constellation Lyra, etc. Also, your whole argument about the album being dynamic and changing works against you too, you realize. Again, cant have it both ways. Who's to say it maybe started as an Element in that demo but then Brian realized what Im saying now--that aesthetically it wouldnt sound good--and decided to make it its own thing? Anyway, Im not completely against the idea, in this case. Unlike WC, there actually is some respectable proof of VT as an element, at least at one point. As I said, Im on the fence, personally. In my last mix, I just used the 3 pieces Im 99% certain were elements (or rough versions of them) for that track but then followed up with VT as the big finale of the Americana side. I thought it worked great.

Quote
Also, regarding the connection of Bicycle Rider to VT (specifcally the fade), listen at 1:40 on the SMiLE Sessions D4T1...you can hear that piano theme, but it was dropped before the final take. Also, the tubular bells/vibes are playing a variation of those same notes. Further, the remake of the VT ended up in the bridge to Wonderful on Smiley Smile, where the BR variation is much more apparent. BR seems to have been the one section that got reworked and auditioned in more songs than any other SMiLE tune. It has been attempted in HV, DYLW, CE, VT, and Wonderful (SS)


Ok, fair enough. I concede this point, that BR was in VT. Still, he says VT is where BR ORIGINATED FROM which is demonstrably false. And, again, its worth pointing out where our sources get things wrong or contradict themselves. Its not to say they must then be wrong about everything, but its important to know.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 11:43:30 AM by Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #362 on: January 08, 2016, 11:34:24 AM »

Well, none of it was marked Earth or The Elements... 

We have a winner! Give the boy a prize!!
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #363 on: January 08, 2016, 11:49:47 AM »

I figure now is as good a time as any to weight in, a that recent post from zosobird (prior to when I STARTED this post) is probably the most concise and informative Smile information I've read in I don't know how long.

My path to this board began with Smile (leading to, not surprisingly) to the old Smile Shop board. As stated over the years, I've been following Smile since first reading the Preiss book in 1979. I first got serious with it when the 93 box set came out and when Napster came on the scene, I stared trying to get my hands on everything I could, again, leading me to the Smile Shop. I built my own Smile over the years, staying at least 75% true to my original ideas, based on but gut and research. Each time, hardware crashes, prevented me from ever finishing. After trying to rescue "lost" data for much loger than I'd like to admit, I decided several moths ago that I would have to start from scratch...again. But that was work for another day.

When this thread first appeared, I ignored it because I still wasn't ready to re-enter that territory but I thank you all for keeping it alive, thus preventing the need for me to create yet ANOTHER Smile thread, as I reach the homestretch of FINALLY completing my Smile.  Thanks also to Mujan for being a wonderful, frequent listener. We don't agree across the board but it was great to get my ideas out to someone who actually knows what I'm referring to. (My wife appreciates you even more than I do.)  Thanks also to the Sheriff for starting this thread, which probably helped re-inspire me on a sub-conscious level.  And finally, thanks to all the other Smilers who've helped, whether it be, exploring ideas and/or showing me other directions with their own work or cribbing stuff from their shared creations, especially the all mighty Seltaeb (some of who's work is absolutely CRUCIAL) to any real, quality Smile building) and bossaroo for being an absolute, speedy peach in offering some of his work at my request.

My Smile is fairly mundane compared to some of the more adventurous takes out there but the flexibility of this stuff is part of the fun of rolling your own. Even the guidelines are fluid, with each person setting their own, often contradictory restrictions. I know some people (like myself, for the most part) try and put together "what Brian had in mind" while others just want to paint the most amazing picture than can by using Brian's tools. Some extreme purists don't like including anything after a certain point, like Taylor's "scrapped" announcement or the day things moved to the home studio. I guess I'm a "left leaning conservative" when it comes to my outlook. I try to use logic and research but am not afraid to borrow from later recording to represent what I think would/could have been done, had time not run out. I'm also on the side of the fence that Brian WAS very close to finishing, that much of BWPS's structure hadn't changed from its original ideas, and that the hand written list/back cover tracklist DID cover most of the albums contents ("hidden tracks" not withstanding"). I'm far from a fan of the more-is more attitude keep most of the soongs under three minutes, as was the Pop music practice back then. My full, album version of "Heroes And Villains" runs just over six minutes and I think the chance of it being THEE version (for a least a moment or two in 1966/67) are far great than much of the stuff we've heard, over the years, and would even put my money on it over the "official" Smile versions.

As my first REAL exposure to the Smile music (beyond the completed singles) was the '93 box set, I tend to favor the arrangements it included and feel some of the elements (no pun intended) we've gotten since were more to give us "new", alternate stuff, and don't necessarily supersede previously released edits (or in some cases, vice versa).

My Smile muse recently returned and after an extremely productive couple of days I completed all but one of my intended songs. Some tracks have multiple versions. My "actual" preferred Smile will have a "completed" album with a single mix of each of its 14 songs, along with a "bonus disc" of alternate mixes and other goodies. Most of the alternate mixes will be either omore or less completed versions of their disc one counterparts while a couple, like "The Elements" will be different possibilities and speculations, looking at different approaches.

So without further adfo, MY Smile mix is:

Our Prayer
Heroes And Villains (custom edit) - HV Intro/Cantina version (minus the Barnshine fade)/67 single version (from first chorus), with TSS endings, but with a "clean trombone (no "cries")
Do You Like Worms (custom mix) - with Brian's "control room vocal" repeated to present the original melody, if not all of the lyrics, added handclaps throughout the verses to blend with the ones in Brian's delivery, "Bicycle Rider" vocals on both choruses, and the repeated music box fade, as heard on the '93 box set.
Barnyard (The Old Master Painter) - Seltaeb's invaluable "Barnyard" mix, with an tweak edit at the beginning (so the percussion starts with everything else)/TOMP (coming in at 0:48) followed by Sunshine and Barnshine from TSS
Cabin Essence - Good Vibrations box version
Wonderful - Good Vibrations box version
Child Is Father Of The Man - "3:00 edit: with the bridge copied to the beginning, making the structure bridge (intro)/verse/"old" chorus/verse/"new" chorus/bridge/"new" chorus (One mix uses "Chris"s vocals from Grant Johanssen's Youtube posting to help "complete" the song.  The other leaves the verses and bridge "authentically empty".  The while thing runs 3:25

You're Welcome - single version
Good Vibrations - single version
I'm In Great Shape - Again using the amazing work of Seltaeb, using his "Great Shape" for the beginning and going into "I Wanna Be Around" and "Workshop" from TSS. The alternate mix using the song's intro and "I Wanna Be Around" from BWPS because without lyics the whole point of the song is lost. The joke doesn't just not work. It barely even exists!
Vega-Tables - Custom edit based on the version on the Good Vibrations box but merging the sections (Mama says, etc.) as done elsewhere, including TSS and without the big crossfade on the GV box, instead using a VERY short one to connect those two parts. Also, the song crossfades from IIGS as heard on the Purple Chick version, etc.
Wind Chimes - Good Vibrations box version...for the most part (Full details coming soon)
The Elements - in progress
Surf's Up - first half is Purple Chick, second half is from TSS, tag is a custom edit using Brian's solo version and with the "Child reprise" but WITHOUT Reilly's "Children Song". The alternate mix uses the talking horns, synced with the second half

I'll be sharing it as soon as I finish (my take on) "The Elements", probably no later than this coming Wednesday, for any one interested in hearing it.  Unfortunately, the final song will have to wait until I tweak some volumes and transitions. It sounded great on the computer but the car stereo is a harsh mistress and she pointed out some pretty big blemishes that I need to correct.

By the way, I feel referring to the album as SMiLE makes as much sense as referring to the song as Good VibrAtioNS.  LOL
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 12:21:08 PM by Phoenix » Logged
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« Reply #364 on: January 08, 2016, 12:27:26 PM »

I figure now is as good a time as any to weight in, a that recent post from zosobird (prior to when I STARTED this post) is probably the most concise and informative Smile information I've read in I don't know how long.

My path to this board began with Smile (leading to, not surprisingly) to the old Smile Shop board. As stated over the years, I've been following Smile since first reading the Preiss book in 1979. I first got serious with it when the 93 box set came out and when Napster came on the scene, I stared trying to get my hands on everything I could, again, leading me to the Smile Shop. I built my own Smile over the years, staying at least 75% true to my original ideas, based on but gut and research. Each time, hardware crashes, prevented me from ever finishing. After trying to rescue "lost" data for much loger than I'd like to admit, I decided several moths ago that I would have to start from scratch...again. But that was work for another day.

When this thread first appeared, I ignored it because I still wasn't ready to re-enter that territory but I thank you all for keeping it alive, thus preventing the need for me to create yet ANOTHER Smile thread, as I reach the homestretch of FINALLY completing my Smile.  Thanks also to Mujan for being a wonderful, frequent listener. We don't agree across the board but it was great to get my ideas out to someone who actually knows what I'm referring to. (My wife appreciates you even more than I do.)  Thanks also to the Sheriff for starting this thread, which probably helped re-inspire me on a sub-conscious level.  And finally, thanks to all the other Smilers who've helped, whether it be, exploring ideas and/or showing me other directions with their own work or cribbing stuff from their shared creations, especially the all mighty Seltaeb (some of who's work is absolutely CRUCIAL) to any real, quality Smile building) and bossaroo for being an absolute, speedy peach in offering some of his work at my request.

My Smile is fairly mundane compared to some of the more adventurous takes out there but the flexibility of this stuff is part of the fun of rolling your own. Even the guidelines are fluid, with each person setting their own, often contradictory restrictions. I know some people (like myself, for the most part) try and put together "what Brian had in mind" while others just want to paint the most amazing picture than can by using Brian's tools. Some extreme purists don't like including anything after a certain point, like Taylor's "scrapped" announcement or the day things moved to the home studio. I guess I'm a "left leaning conservative" when it comes to my outlook. I try to use logic and research but am not afraid to borrow from later recording to represent what I think would/could have been done, had time not run out. I'm also on the side of the fence that Brian WAS very close to finishing, that much of BWPS's structure hadn't changed from its original ideas, and that the hand written list/back cover tracklist DID cover most of the albums contents ("hidden tracks" not withstanding"). I'm far from a fan of the more-is more attitude keep most of the soongs under three minutes, as was the Pop music practice back then. My full, album version of "Heroes And Villains" runs just over six minutes and I think the chance of it being THEE version (for a least a moment or two in 1966/67) are far great than much of the stuff we've heard, over the years, and would even put my money on it over the "official" Smile versions.

As my first REAL exposure to the Smile music (beyond the completed singles) was the '93 box set, I tend to favor the arrangements it included and feel some of the elements (no pun intended) we've gotten since were more to give us "new", alternate stuff, and don't necessarily supersede previously released edits (or in some cases, vice versa).

My Smile muse recently returned and after an extremely productive couple of days I completed all but one of my intended songs. Some tracks have multiple versions. My "actual" preferred Smile will have a "completed" album with a single mix of each of its 14 songs, along with a "bonus disc" of alternate mixes and other goodies. Most of the alternate mixes will be either omore or less completed versions of their disc one counterparts while a couple, like "The Elements" will be different possibilities and speculations, looking at different approaches.

So without further adfo, MY Smile mix is:

Our Prayer
Heroes And Villains (custom edit) - HV Intro/Cantina version - Barnshine fade/67 single version (from first chorus), with TSS endings, but with a "clean trombone (no "cries")
Do You Like Worms (custom mix) - with Brian's "control room vocal" repeated to present the original melody, if not all of the lyrics, added handclaps throughout the verses to blend with the ones in Brian's deliever, "Bicycle Rider" vocals on both choruses, and the repeated music box fade, as heard on the '93 box set.
Barnyard (The Old Master Painter) - Seltaeb's invaluable "Barnyard" mix, with an tweak edit at the beginning (so the percussion starts with everything else)/TOMP (coming in at 0:48) followed by Sunshine and Barnshine from TSS
Cabin Essence - Good Vibrations box version
Wonderful - Good Vibrations box version
Child Is Father Of The Man - "3:00 edit: with the bridge copied to the beginning, making the structure bridge (intro)/verse/"old" chorus/verse/"new" chorus/bridge/"new" chorus (One mix uses "Chris"s vocals from Grant Johanssen's Youtube posting to help "complete" the song.  The other leaves the verses and bridge "authentically empty".  The while thing runs 3:25

You're Welcome - single version
Good Vibrations - single version
I'm In Great Shape - Again using the amazing work of Seltaeb, using his "Great Shape" for the beginning and going into "I Wanna Be Around" and "Workshop" from TSS. The alternate mix using the song's intro and "I Wanna Be Around" from BWPS because without lyics the whole point of the song is lost. The joke doesn't just not work. It barely even exists!
Vega-Tables - Custom edit based on the version on the Good Vibrations box but merging the sections (Mama says, etc.) as done elsewhere, including TSS and without the big crossfade on the GV box, instead using a VERY short one to connect those two parts. Also, the song crossfades from IIGS as heard on the Purple Chick version, etc.
Wind Chimes - Good Vibrations box version...for the most part (Full details coming soon)
The Elements - in progress
Surf's Up - first half is Purple Chick, second half is from TSS, tag is a custom edit using Brian's solo version and with the "Child reprise" but WITHOUT Reilly's "Children Song". The alternate mix uses the talking horns, synced with the second half

I'll be sharing it as soon as I finish (my take on) "The Elements", probably no later than this coming Wednesday, for any one interested in hearing it.  Unfortunately, the final song will have to wait until I tweak some volumes and transitions. It sounded great on the computer but the car stereo is a harsh mistress and she pointed out some pretty big blemishes that I need to correct.

By the way, I feel referring to the album as SMiLE makes as much sense as referring to the song as Good VibrAtioNS.  LOL

Glad youve finished--and sorry I havent replied too much recently. Ive been a lot more engaged in this conversation only because reading the Anderle and now Siegel pieces really got me into the mood again.

For me, spelling it SMiLE has its advantages: it makes it a distinct entity from just a normal Smile. You spell it SMiLE and people who have no idea go "woah sh*t, whats that??" instead of "thats a dumb/generic name." More than that tho, I think it helps convey a double meaning. Whether its what Brian intended or not, I see the title as a play on word; between a physical smile and Timothy Leary's philosophy of S.M.I.2L.E. By making the I lower case, its two pieces rather than one like all the rest, so it helps express that there are two Is. Maybe a forced interpretation but Im sticking to it. Someone Ive read tried to say it represented Brian's feelings of inadequacy and shyness, that the I is smaller than all the others. Something else to think about. In any case, the spelling was retained for BWPS, so I think its deliberate and meaningful even if no one can say for sure how. Good Vibrations was spelled correctly on its single release so it doesnt apply to me  Grin
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #365 on: January 08, 2016, 12:33:13 PM »

But as Andrew pointed out many times, it wasn't Brian who came up with the font/spelling, it was some nameless production guy at Capitol doing what he thought was an entertaining paste up for the album cover.  Smiley
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« Reply #366 on: January 08, 2016, 12:42:31 PM »

But as Andrew pointed out many times, it wasn't Brian who came up with the font/spelling, it was some nameless production guy at Capitol doing what he thought was an entertaining paste up for the album cover.  Smiley

Well, even if thats so, Ill continue to derive meaning from it. Its there now, and for anyone to interpret.

Can we say for certain Brian had no say/didnt see it before it was mas produced? According to Vosse, the cover and booklet pictures were deliberate. Even the stupid looking one on the back. He wanted people to laugh at them and the cover. With the pictures, he wanted to convey the idea that they were way out of their element with this. And for the cover, a badly drawn childlike thing, it was initially supposed to throw people off their guard. "This looks stupid!/this is supposed to be their new masterpiece??" but then after you listen to it...woah. It totally blows you away even more because the album cover is so unassuming and simplistic in contrast to the music. Similar to Brian's thinking that laughter opened you up to be enlightened. And after surfs up it all comes together. The children's song is enlightenment. Thats whats important and worth living for as all Empire crumble and theres so much unhappiness in the world. And the cover looks like something a child drew--simple, yes, but from the heart and worth respecting. Now, if so much care and brilliance went into the cover...Im willing to believe at least some went into the title/spelling of the title.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #367 on: January 08, 2016, 01:18:17 PM »


Ill have to revisit the article or my post about it, but I recall he talks about Elements and WC at two different points in the article, rather than all at once as youve got it here. In any case, if WC was Air...WHY WOULDNT HE JUST CLARIFY THAT? Thats the big burden of proof that you WC as Air theorists cant seem to hurdle. Its listed seperately on the tracklist from the Elements, unlike Fire, the Elements isnt written on the tape box or called out during studio chatter of WC. You can point to all these vague "well, Vosse mentions WC sorta close to where he mentions the elements" non-arguments you want, but its hardly definitive. It certainly doesnt come close to overriding the proof against it. Plus, I take Anderle's testimony about the chanting sessions he would have them do pretty seriously. Its just hard for me to believe in a short instrumental Fire, a short chanting Water, and then a big fully vocalized and instrumented WC and VT as Air and Earth. Its not consistent, it doesnt flow or give equal weight to all the elements. So not only does the evidence go against this theory but so does common sense. Ive debated this at length with Holy Bee on the TSS board, and my other disagreements can be found there. Anyway, the burden of proof is on the WC advocates; my official position is Air was never made, not officially, but Breathing is almost certainly at least a working idea for it and the closest we'll get.
No, we're saying the ending Tag Remake from 10/5/66 is Air, not the whole Wind Chimes itself.  Just the multitracked pianos. 

Also, burden of proof?  Do you have that for the Breathing sounds as Air? 


Quote
Since we'll never know for sure, I just vote with my ears. Does WC make me immediately think "Air!" like Fire makes me think Fire? Not at all. But Breathing certainly does.

Well now we're getting into subjective perceptions of the music itself, something that doesn't require a burden of proof.  What if I think the Wind Chimes tag does sound like Air, but the Breathing doesn't?
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« Reply #368 on: January 08, 2016, 01:22:30 PM »

Here's my latest iteration that blend the 12 track format mixed with some arrangements from the 2004 version and incorporating some of the Psychedelic Sounds, all in glorious mono. I really have to say that im' proud of this mix but it's really my personal interpretation of how the songs of SMiLE would have sounded like if released around May 1967, not like what Brian Wilson would have done back then. Some liberties were taken, but the main goal was to have 12 strong "complete" songs with full vocals. For example, maybe a track like The Elements in its original state doesn't really exist, but this version would have been a great track. So, without any further boringness,

Enjoy! (with headphones, in the dark, please) Cool Guy

Side A (American Gothic Trip)

01 Prayer/Heroes & Villians Pt 1  - Cantina version 'til tape explosion/Sunny Down Snuff/Heroes 45 chorus Smile Sessions version)
02 Do You Like Worms - mix of different edits: seltaeb1012002, soniclovenoize, happyroom
03 Im' In Great Shape (The Barnyard Suite- the farming/health theme continues in Vega-Tables) - as in soniclovenoize's version: Barnyard/Im' In Great Shape/I Wanna Be Around(seltaeb1012002 mix)/Friday Night (w\ Smog from Psychedelic Sounds)
04 Vega-Tables - mix from The Smile Sessions with added coda from Smiley Smile + Vegetables promo from The Smile Sessions
05 The Old Master Painter - Intro and mix from The Smile Sessions
06 Cabin Essence - The Smile Sessions mix

Side B (Cycle of Life)

07 Good Vibrations - 45 mix version from Smiley Smile Japanese remaster
08 Wind Chimes - 30 years of Good Vibrations mix+Smile Sessions
09 The Elements -  San Francisco 1906 Earthquake (H& V Intro with sound fx + Who Ran The Iron Horse chant from Vocals Montage featured on The Smile Sessions) /Mrs. O' Leary's Cow (w/crackling fire Brian Wilson mono mix+Fall Breaks chant)/I Love To Say Da-Da (30 Years of GV Box + sound sfx + Psychedelic Sounds) - Whispering Winds (Smiley Smile version + sound fx)
10 Wonderful/Look -  - The Smile Sessions + mix from happyroom
11 Child Is Father Of The Man - mix of different edits: seltaeb1012002, soniclovenoize, happyroom, the old master painter, Chris from The Smile Project
12 Surf's Up/Prayer (reprise) - mix of different edits: The Smile Sessions, bruiteur mix, Psychedelic Sounds.

bonus:
Heroes & Villians Pt 2 (b-side to the single) - based on the medley from the acetates mixes on The Smile Sessions that goes Gee/Heroes & Villains (fast variation 1)/Heroes & Villains (fast variation 2) then it goes into Heroes & Villains (slow variation 3)/Bridge to indians and country and western theme/flutterhorn/Fade remake with Carl on vocals (Smile Sessions)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYZAsDfmsKM&feature=youtu.be
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 02:27:45 PM by shangaijoeBB » Logged
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« Reply #369 on: January 08, 2016, 01:48:37 PM »


Ill have to revisit the article or my post about it, but I recall he talks about Elements and WC at two different points in the article, rather than all at once as youve got it here. In any case, if WC was Air...WHY WOULDNT HE JUST CLARIFY THAT? Thats the big burden of proof that you WC as Air theorists cant seem to hurdle. Its listed seperately on the tracklist from the Elements, unlike Fire, the Elements isnt written on the tape box or called out during studio chatter of WC. You can point to all these vague "well, Vosse mentions WC sorta close to where he mentions the elements" non-arguments you want, but its hardly definitive. It certainly doesnt come close to overriding the proof against it. Plus, I take Anderle's testimony about the chanting sessions he would have them do pretty seriously. Its just hard for me to believe in a short instrumental Fire, a short chanting Water, and then a big fully vocalized and instrumented WC and VT as Air and Earth. Its not consistent, it doesnt flow or give equal weight to all the elements. So not only does the evidence go against this theory but so does common sense. Ive debated this at length with Holy Bee on the TSS board, and my other disagreements can be found there. Anyway, the burden of proof is on the WC advocates; my official position is Air was never made, not officially, but Breathing is almost certainly at least a working idea for it and the closest we'll get.
No, we're saying the ending Tag Remake from 10/5/66 is Air, not the whole Wind Chimes itself.  Just the multitracked pianos. 

Also, burden of proof?  Do you have that for the Breathing sounds as Air? 

So...half a song is an Element? That makes no sense. Why is it tagged as WC then and not the Elements.

Ive said it before and Ill say it again: Air, Water and Earth never happened. Never officially worked on, much less finished. That said, Undersea Chant and Breathing represent working versions of them. The way Anderle talks about them, and if I remember right, Vosse, I get the idea theyre linked. But more important, these were unofficial recordings--just Brian playing around with ideas for SMiLE while the band was gone. And, wouldnt you know it, he rerecorded one of them later with them--the water chant. Obviously he didnt do that with Breathing--either because he didnt like the idea or changed his mind or whatever. But doesnt it stand to reason that if we know the water chant fromPS was a working idea, that the air one was too? Seriously, its just common sense, and I think you know that but are just being difficult because you want to believe its something else. Its not that hard to understand why unofficial experiments wouldnt be tracked as The Elements, yet official recordings would--either on the tape boxes, session sheets, studio chatter SOMETHING. It makes perfect sense, and hence why the burden of proof, if you believe the other elements were officially recorded/worked on, is on you.

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Since we'll never know for sure, I just vote with my ears. Does WC make me immediately think "Air!" like Fire makes me think Fire? Not at all. But Breathing certainly does.

Well now we're getting into subjective perceptions of the music itself, something that doesn't require a burden of proof.  What if I think the Wind Chimes tag does sound like Air, but the Breathing doesn't?

Funny how I wrote literally paragraphs stating my case and you take just the one part that admittedly relies on subjectivity and use that alone for your rebuttal. How many times in my post did I clearly state that part of my argument was a matter of aesthetics? Yet, that wasnt my entire argument either.

My position is very clear, and Ive said it a dozen times now: there was no official recording of Air, Water, Earth. None. To try to shoehorn in other songs or half of songs (cause that makes total sense) as elements is folly. I do think we are blessed to have some early ideas for two of the unfinished elements in Undersea Chant and Breathing, so I use those because there isnt anything else thats really plausible. So many of you see no trouble using the Water Chant with Dada, yet using the track that undeniably preceded it--or even acknowledging the legitimacy of it as a working idea for water--is somehow unthinkable. The very existence of a very trippy, experimental breathing montage is dismissed because people have a preconceived notion of what they want, even if the evidence doesnt support it. You use the whole "SMiLE was dynamic" argument to try to shoo away my theory, and yet apparently it doesnt apply to Veggies which, even if it was an element at one point, was almost certainly not by December--when the Elements track proper was being recorded for the first time and the tracklist written. And wouldnt you know it, Fire is called The Elements in studio chatter, the tape boxes, and session sheets. Why not any of the other elements? Because reasons? Because it suits you? Makes a whole lot of sense.

Hey, here's a wacky observation. If the piano fade is air, then why was it cut from BWPS AND TSS' versions of the song Wind Chimes? Why go thru the trouble to make a 4-song elements suite including WC and then cut the section that was apparently air according to you?

I realize my argument about not thinking "Air!" when I hear WC is subjective, but for you to pretend thats all Im saying about the subject is dishonest. Im also willing to bet that if you were to ask anyone who had no idea what SMiLE is to listen to Fire...theyd know the song is about a fire. And if you were to ask them what Wind Chimes or VT makes them think about it wouldnt be Air and Earth. Id go even further to say that if you did the same for UC, Breathing and perhaps even Workshop* theyd be very likely to say water, air and earth. Im gonna go even further and say if youre really trying to claim Breathing doesnt make you visualize wind, air, breath, etc, then youre lying to make your argument look better by undermining mine. Pure and simple.

*which Im not saying is  Earth, but still
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 01:56:44 PM by Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #370 on: January 08, 2016, 01:49:23 PM »

Here's my latest iteration that blend the 12 track format mixed with some arrangements from the 2004 version and incorporating some of the Psychedelic Sounds, all in glorious mono. I really have to say that im' proud of this mix but it's really my personal interpretation of how the songs of SMiLE would have sounded like if released around May 1967, not like what Brian Wilson would have done back then. Some liberties were taken, but the main goal was to have 12 strong "complete" songs with full vocals. For example, maybe a track like The Elements in its original state doesn't really exist, but this version would have been a great track. So, without any further boringness,

Enjoy! (with headphones, in the dark, please) Cool Guy

Side A (American Gothic Trip)

01 Prayer/Heroes & Villians Pt 1  - Cantina version 'til tape explosion/Sunny Down Snuff/Heroes 45 chorus Smile Sessions version)
02 Do You Like Worms - mix of different edits: seltaeb1012002, soniclovenoize, happyroom
03 Im' In Great Shape (The Barnyard Suite- the farming/health theme continues in Vega-Tables) - as in soniclovenoize's version: Barnyard/Im' In Great Shape/I Wanna Be Around(seltaeb1012002 mix)/Friday Night (w\ Smog from Psychedelic Sounds)
04 Vega-Tables - mix from The Smile Sessions with added coda from Smiley Smile + Vegetables promo from The Smile Sessions
05 The Old Master Painter - Intro and mix from The Smile Sessions
06 Cabin Essence - The Smile Sessions mix

Side B (Cycle of Life)

07 Good Vibrations - 45 mix version from Smiley Smile Japanese remaster
08 Wind Chimes - 30 years of Good Vibrations mix+Smile Sessions
09 The Elements -  San Francisco 1906 Earthquake (H& V Intro with sound fx + Who Ran The Iron Horse chant from Vocals Montage featured on The Smile Sessions) /Mrs. O' Leary's Cow (w/crackling fire Brian Wilson mono mix+Fall Breaks chant)/I Love To Say Da-Da (30 Years of GV Box + sound sfx + Psychedelic Sounds) - Whispering Winds (Smiley Smile version + sound fx)
10 Wonderful/Look -  - The Smile Sessions + mix from happyroom
11 Child Is Father Of The Man - mix of different edits: seltaeb1012002, soniclovenoize, happyroom, the old master painter, Chris from The Smile Project
12 Surf's Up/Prayer (reprise) - mix of different edits: The Smile Sessions, bruiteur mix, Psychedelic Sounds.

bonus:
Heroes & Villians Pt 2 (b-side to the single) - based on the medley from the acetates mixes on The Smile Sessions that goes Gee/Heroes & Villains (fast variation 1)/Heroes & Villains (fast variation 2) then it goes into Heroes & Villains (slow variation 3)/Bridge to indians and country and western theme/flutterhorn/Fade remake with Carl on vocals (Smile Sessions)

https://vimeo.com/151183262

shangaijoeBB, I got all psyched to listen to your mix but the link doesn't work. Can you check it out? I'd really like to hear what you came up with!
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Phoenix
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« Reply #371 on: January 08, 2016, 02:23:07 PM »

I concur. Please let us know when that link is fixed.
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shangaijoeBB
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« Reply #372 on: January 08, 2016, 02:28:12 PM »

Ok, hope this works!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYZAsDfmsKM&feature=youtu.be
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Phoenix
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« Reply #373 on: January 08, 2016, 02:34:51 PM »

Hey, here's a wacky observation. If the piano fade is air, then why was it cut from BWPS AND TSS' versions of the song Wind Chimes? Why go thru the trouble to make a 4-song elements suite including WC and then cut the section that was apparently air according to you?

MY answer? Because by 2004 Brian couldn't have really cared less about finishing Smile but agreed with Melinda, etc. that was a great business idea. With Darian's help, they piece it together and Brian answered the definitive stuff, as he remembered it: IIGS, Barnyard, etc.* But when they got to "The Elements", which we know was never finished and was constantly in a state of flux before it was abandoned, Brian tells Darian, "All I ever knew for sure was MOC was Fire." Add to that the fact that like me and many others, the GV box set version of "Wind Chines" was the completed, definitive, Smile era version, they used it with (nearly) that same arrangement and quickly checked that song off the list and moved onto the next one, with all parites involved hoping they would in fact, make it to the finish line in time with a completed version of Smile.

As for that there asterisk up there *
I honestly don't see why so many people have a hard time accepting the 2004 arrangements of IIGS and Barnyard (TOMP). Is it because they're listed as sections on BWPS and were listed as songs on the back cover and hand written list? Conversely, it boggles my mind how so many "purists" precede MOC with the HV Intro, when Brian has said he got that idea from fan edits (that he thought sounded cool) DECADES after the original album was scrapped.  If you're like Brian and just like the sound of it, that's fine but if you're going with "what he had in mind", it's just crazy, especially when couple with the rearrangements on IIGS and Barnyard.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 03:15:21 PM by Phoenix » Logged
Phoenix
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« Reply #374 on: January 08, 2016, 02:35:21 PM »


Thanks!
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