Your SMiLE mix...for the fun of it

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

No. We learned that the material was very fluid. Pieces of Cabin Essence and Worms getting shuffled around. Something that was almost certainly an element branching into its own thing. Come January, everything getting shuffled in and out of Heroes and Villains. But this myth of a multiple-song Elements suite needs to die a hard death as far as Im concerned. Theres no proof of that whatsoever. In fact, the tracklist we were all so keen to take seriously a few pages ago lists it as ONE SONG.

Far more believable to me there was another planned piano piece (probably with breathing overdubs?) or Brian misremembered (intentionally or not) than that Wind Chimes was an element. I accept that explanation for Veggies only because there's a lot of proof (check out me and HolyBee's debate) for it. And even with that, there's nearly as much proof even Veggies WASNT an element. Wind Chimes doesnt have even half of the evidence going for it that Veggies does. There's absolutely no way, and the only reason people are so eager to shoe-horn it in is because of Priore and BWPS.

Someone wants to recreate this piano theme with the only semi-close thing we have in their fanmix, fine. But I dont think you can take one nugget--years after the fact--from the worlds least reliable interviewee and this thread and say "ah yes, clearly the Elements was more than one song in '67. Wind Chimes is air. Case closed."

No, this has nothing to do with BWPS or Priore. 

It has to do with the song WIND Chimes being about WIND blowing through WIND chimes. 

Right. And Surfs Up is water because of Surf in the title. And Worms is Earth because it has Worms in the title. ELEMENTS SOLVED, pack it in boys, we're going home!

[soniclovenoize]

Right. And Surfs Up is water because of Surf in the title. And Worms is Earth because it has Worms in the title. ELEMENTS SOLVED, pack it in boys, we're going home!

Ah but Surf's Up isn't really about surfing at all, is it? 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Right. And Surfs Up is water because of Surf in the title. And Worms is Earth because it has Worms in the title. ELEMENTS SOLVED, pack it in boys, we're going home!

Ah but Surf's Up isn't really about surfing at all, is it? 

I mean...that was the whole point...

[soniclovenoize]

...That it wasn't about surfing?  I'm not getting you.

Surf's Up is not about water, it's about the relationship between The Artist and his Art and the attempt to extract the art from the pretentiousness of it's surroundings; nor is DYLW about earth, it's about Western Expansionism and the plight of the Native Americans. 

In contrast, Wind Chimes is actually about wind/air. 

But also I'm, taken back by your assertion that you know the underlying motive of my logic, that clearly I must have been brainwashed by Dominic Priore and Darian Sahanaja!

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

...That it wasn't about surfing?  I'm not getting you.

Surf's Up is not about water, it's about the relationship between The Artist and his Art and the attempt to extract the art from the pretentiousness of it's surroundings; nor is DYLW about earth, it's about Western Expansionism and the plight of the Native Americans.  

In contrast, Wind Chimes is actually about wind/air.  

But also I'm, taken back by your assertion that you know the underlying motive of my logic, that clearly I must have been brainwashed by Dominic Priore and Darian Sahanaja!

My point was just because it has something vaguely airy in the title means nothing. It's not about air or the actual wind, it's about an object that happens to be called a wind chime. If you look into it a certain way, read between the lines as they say, it could also be about loneliness, enjoying the simple things, or anticipating death. It has prominent piano and horns, as well as a more somber tone, like CIFOTM Wonderful and Surf's Up, which leads me to believe it was actually originally intended as part of that Cycle of Life context rather than Elements. It certainly sounds a lot better rubbing elbows with them than wildly different songs like Veggies, Fire and Dada.

Quotes like this: Marilyn Wilson said: "We went shopping one day and we brought home some wind chimes. We hung them outside the house and then one day, while Brian was sitting around he sort of watched them out the window and then he wrote the song. I think that’s how it happened. Simple. He does a lot of things that way." and what HolyBee brought up before about the song being super important to Brian and everybody back then leads me to believe it was a standalone track. Anderle seems to know what Air and Water were more or less, but doesnt cite Wind Chimes at all. It makes all the sense in the world that he WOULD if thats what it was. Why make vague comments about it when he could easily just say ("air was Wind Chimes--but it sounded a lot different than the version you know on Smiley.") Neither does anyone else say anything about Wind Chimes in an elements context. Even this quote from Brian everyone's latching unto doesnt mention Wind Chimes and could very well be anything (or nothing, ie if he misremembered, was lying, or didnt record this piano thing). Vega-Tables is also separate on the tracklist but at least we have direct quotes from VDP, Frank Holmes, and vague comments about health in the elements from others that supports it.

I want some evidence that Wind Chimes was air aside from "well...its got wind in the title." Which, as I demonstrated, could be used to assert that anything is an element. I could still say "Well...the Pilgrims and Indians fought over land, ie Earth. So therefore Worms is about Earth." You acknowledge how silly that is, but youre doing the same thing with Wind Chimes. The only reason this "Wind Chimes is Air" theory gained so much traction is because that was the assumption from Priore and other boots in the 80s and that got so entrenched it was written in to BWPS with the creation of the new third movement. The elements was a single song in 1966. One part was officially recorded, hence "The Elements Part One" on the recording and tape labels. One part was going to be, but for a variety of reasons got spun off into its own thing. The other two pieces were brainstormed while the Boys were away but never officially recorded. Wind Chimes was something else entirely. It had been worked on before the Elements, was NEVER referred to as an element then or since, wasnt labelled as such and was listed separately on the tracklist. Period.

EDIT: Plus, as I said with Dada as Water...do you really feel "Air!" when you listen to Wind Chimes? I feel tranquil and relaxed, like Im safe at home on a cool breezy day enjoying some time alone and taking in the little things most people take for granted. Fire is unmistakably Fire. Undersea Chant and Breathing are unmistakably their respective elements. If you pulled someone off the street and gave them no context, just said "listen to this" theyd know those are Fire, Water and Air. Try the same with Veggies and Chimes. I highly doubt anyone would just immediately think Earth and Air there. If you gave them some coaching, explained the context, theyd probably say "yeah, i can see that" but its not the visceral feeling those others bring on. I have a suspicion thats part of the reason why Veggies got spun off from the Elements; even Brian realized it didnt really work there. With Wind Chimes and Dada tho, its irrelevant BECAUSE THOSE SONGS WERE NOT ELEMENTS UNTIL 30+ YEARS LATER.

[soniclovenoize]

We'll have to agreed to disagree Mujan

 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

We'll have to agreed to disagree Mujan

 

I suppose. But, like I said to Jason and HolyBee I'm open to be proven wrong. HolyBee eventually convinced me with Vega-Tables.* If you have any actual evidence besides Wind in the title and a gut feeling Id really like to see it.

*Ive kinda merged our two theories since then. It was an element early on, but then Brian realized it wouldnt really work because it didnt evoke that same unmistakable, visceral feeling and it had full lyrics which the other elements didnt. So Earth was going to be rewritten and Veggies became its own song, but once the elements was put on indefinite hold that never happened. This would explain all the conflicting evidence of some people pointing to Veggies, talking about health themes in the Elements, but then why Anderle and others say they have no idea what Earth was gonna be.

[The_Holy_Bee]

This all seems rather familiar, somehow...

The only reason this "Wind Chimes is Air" theory gained so much traction is because that was the assumption from Priore and other boots in the 80s and that got so entrenched it was written in to BWPS with the creation of the new third movement.

Except this (and a lot of other material above) is not the reason I used WC as "Air" in my current mix. And my reasons probably aren't any better, frankly, but what I do find troublesome - and thought so in the TSS forum too - is what SLN terms below as

your assertion that you know the underlying motive of my logic, that clearly I must have been brainwashed by Dominic Priore and Darian Sahanaja!

and a continuing tendency to hold what seems to me to be a contradictory position on burden of proof. Ie: To say:

I want some evidence that Wind Chimes was air aside from "well...its got wind in the title"

and offer examples of what evidence doesn't exist to connect 'em is fair enough.

But on the other hand, when we come to a personal hobbyhorse - ie. "Psycodelic Sounds" being a work-out for/development of/potential actual recording of parts of "The Elements" (I believe usually posited as all parts except "Fire") - then suddenly it's legitimate to make statements like this:

Undersea Chant and Breathing are unmistakably their respective elements.

And to use an argument like this:

"Anderle seems to know what Air and Water were more or less, but doesnt cite Wind Chimes at all. It makes all the sense in the world that he WOULD if thats what it was."

Right, so the Crawdaddy! pieces count when being used to discredit one theory. Great, that's what evidence should do. But in that case, the following statement (regarding the same interview and individuals) should hold equal water for you:

"Anderle discussed both The Elements and the PS Chanting at length in that interview, but doesnt ever draw a connection between them. It makes all the sense in the world that he WOULD if thats what it was."

Not that it matters, but sometimes your posts do look and taste a bit like cake being held and also eaten. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong about PS - in a way that I have conceded Wind Chimes almost certainly isn't/wasn't air - but if one is going to go about calling "Flimsy evidence!" on people I think it behoves them to hold their own arguments to an equally rigorous standard.

And, in case the above seems too harsh (I don't really post anywhere but here, so I suspect I often get the tone wrong): a very genuine   to all.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Surf's Up is not about water, it's about the relationship between The Artist and his Art and the attempt to extract the art from the pretentiousness of it's surroundings...

Somewhat connected to this, I just went back to have a look at the famous "summary" given in GSHG!, and was struck by how many water/beach/oceanic references (naval battles, booze, tears) there are in Brian's explanation of the song as quoted by Siegel:

Then there’s the parties, the drinking, trying to forget the wars, the battles at sea. While at port a do or die. Ships in the harbor, battling it out. A kind of Roman empire thing. A choke of grief. At his own sorrow and the emptiness of his life. because he can’t even cry for the suffering in the world, for his own suffering. And then, hope. Surf’s up! … Come about hard and join the once and often spring you gave. Go back to the kids, to the beach, to childhood. I heard the word of God; Wonderful thing; the joy of enlightenment, of seeing God. And what is it? A children’s song!

And then there’s the song itself; the song of children; the song of the universe rising and falling in wave after wave...

To be clear, I am definitely not using this an argument for SU=Water or anything of the kind. Just thought it was vaguely interesting to note.

[soniclovenoize]

I suppose. But, like I said to Jason and HolyBee I'm open to be proven wrong. HolyBee eventually convinced me with Vega-Tables.* If you have any actual evidence besides Wind in the title and a gut feeling Id really like to see it.

*Ive kinda merged our two theories since then. It was an element early on, but then Brian realized it wouldnt really work because it didnt evoke that same unmistakable, visceral feeling and it had full lyrics which the other elements didnt. So Earth was going to be rewritten and Veggies became its own song, but once the elements was put on indefinite hold that never happened. This would explain all the conflicting evidence of some people pointing to Veggies, talking about health themes in the Elements, but then why Anderle and others say they have no idea what Earth was gonna be.

Defer to my previous post.  It's clear you want to misrepresent my suggestions to perpetuate an epic internet debate, which is not what I am interested in doing.  Maybe someone else will humor you, but I'm not interesting in hearing the feelings I get from a piece of music is wrong,and feelings you get from the same music is right. 

Have a nice day. 

[soniclovenoize]

Surf's Up is not about water, it's about the relationship between The Artist and his Art and the attempt to extract the art from the pretentiousness of it's surroundings...

Somewhat connected to this, I just went back to have a look at the famous "summary" given in GSHG!, and was struck by how many water/beach/oceanic references (naval battles, booze, tears) there are in Brian's explanation of the song as quoted by Siegel:

Then there’s the parties, the drinking, trying to forget the wars, the battles at sea. While at port a do or die. Ships in the harbor, battling it out. A kind of Roman empire thing. A choke of grief. At his own sorrow and the emptiness of his life. because he can’t even cry for the suffering in the world, for his own suffering. And then, hope. Surf’s up! … Come about hard and join the once and often spring you gave. Go back to the kids, to the beach, to childhood. I heard the word of God; Wonderful thing; the joy of enlightenment, of seeing God. And what is it? A children’s song!

And then there’s the song itself; the song of children; the song of the universe rising and falling in wave after wave...

To be clear, I am definitely not using this an argument for SU=Water or anything of the kind. Just thought it was vaguely interesting to note.

What I thought was really interesting, was:

“The joy of enlightenment, of seeing God. And what is it? A children’s song! And then there’s the song itself; the song of children; the song of the universe rising and falling in wave after wave, the song of God, hiding the love from us, but always letting us find it again, like a mother singing to her children.”

...which ties into what I said earlier:

I need to state my opinion here, that the ending Child reprise tagged on to Surf's Up--which Brian so adamantly believed should go there when the BBs were finishing it up--sounds like a metaphorical "amen" to me.  I could be wrong, but Vosse's comments, to me, seemed to describe that part, and the "Their song is love and the children know the way..." is the "amen" of SMiLE, not Our Prayer. 

I guess we all see what we want to see. 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

This all seems rather familiar, somehow...

The only reason this "Wind Chimes is Air" theory gained so much traction is because that was the assumption from Priore and other boots in the 80s and that got so entrenched it was written in to BWPS with the creation of the new third movement.

Except this (and a lot of other material above) is not the reason I used WC as "Air" in my current mix. And my reasons probably aren't any better, frankly, but what I do find troublesome - and thought so in the TSS forum too - is what SLN terms below as

your assertion that you know the underlying motive of my logic, that clearly I must have been brainwashed by Dominic Priore and Darian Sahanaja!

and a continuing tendency to hold what seems to me to be a contradictory position on burden of proof. Ie: To say:

I want some evidence that Wind Chimes was air aside from "well...its got wind in the title"

and offer examples of what evidence doesn't exist to connect 'em is fair enough.

But on the other hand, when we come to a personal hobbyhorse - ie. "Psycodelic Sounds" being a work-out for/development of/potential actual recording of parts of "The Elements" (I believe usually posited as all parts except "Fire") - then suddenly it's legitimate to make statements like this:

Undersea Chant and Breathing are unmistakably their respective elements.

And to use an argument like this:

"Anderle seems to know what Air and Water were more or less, but doesnt cite Wind Chimes at all. It makes all the sense in the world that he WOULD if thats what it was."

Right, so the Crawdaddy! pieces count when being used to discredit one theory. Great, that's what evidence should do. But in that case, the following statement (regarding the same interview and individuals) should hold equal water for you:

"Anderle discussed both The Elements and the PS Chanting at length in that interview, but doesnt ever draw a connection between them. It makes all the sense in the world that he WOULD if thats what it was."

Not that it matters, but sometimes your posts do look and taste a bit like cake being held and also eaten. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong about PS - in a way that I have conceded Wind Chimes almost certainly isn't/wasn't air - but if one is going to go about calling "Flimsy evidence!" on people I think it behoves them to hold their own arguments to an equally rigorous standard.

And, in case the above seems too harsh (I don't really post anywhere but here, so I suspect I often get the tone wrong): a very genuine   to all.

I mean, tell me truthfully, if it had not been such a popular theory in the 80s and 90s...enough that it got repurposed for BWPS, would you all be so willing to call it air? Would you really sift through all the material and say "ah yes, clearly Veggies, Wind Chimes, Fire and Dada were meant to be together." Maybe its presumptuous of me but I really dont think so. Not as many as there are, Id reckon. The idea that the album be divided into an Americana Side and Elements side is an old idea still prevelant today, but I dont think theres any evidence for it except the echo chamber that began in the 80s. As far as I can see, it was ONE SONG. And nobody has yet to convince me otherwise. Rather than acknowledge my points directly, it seems nobody can or will defend this position and acts like Im a jerk for daring to challenge it, or raise the possibility that MAYBE just MAYBE you guys are letting past assumptions sway you, even just a bit.

How is it so hard to believe that PS ISNT a collection of random ideas being played around with by Brian while his band was away? I mean...thats objectively what it is. This isnt a debate--there's a collection of experimental ideas he was working on at the height of the SMiLE sessions. The fact that it even exists at all shows he was playing around with ideas. You could say "yeah but maybe those werent meant for SMiLE!" to which I say Occams Razor. Youre trying to infer that a bunch of comedy bits about vegetables, traveling across America and doing little kid activities (buying ice cream) arent connected to an album with a song called vegetables with Americana themes and children? You mean these recordings where he has his friends act out an ocean landscape, breathe in rhythmic fashion, chant about fish, chant about veggies were completely unrelated to this song called the elements that was missing those three elements? Mighty big assertions, dude. I'm not the one pulling random interpretations of songs out of nowhere and claiming them as fact because "feelings!", I'm arguing common sense--if it looks like a horse and smells like a horse...well...

I guess the fact Brian took the time and money to have Wrecking Crew musicians record the Argument and Geroge Fell DURING THE SMILE SESSIONS means nothing too? No evidence there, right? Not to mention the fact that he's in complete command of these sessions, dictating exactly the scenarios he wants Hal and Vosse to enact, and for those Horn players to say. No, those are just Brian being stoned and goofing off. They arent important in the slightest--even if they were included on the boxset, albeit in bastardized form. I'm just making things up to support my "hobbyhorse" and ignoring the spellbinding reasons others are providing that we should continue to ignore PS exists, and keep on perpetuating the completely disproven myth of an elements side.

In any case, you took my words "unmistakably their respective elements" out of context. I meant, when you listen to those tracks, is their ANY doubt you're listening to some expression of air and water? Compare that to Veggies, Dada and WC and Id say there is doubt for the latter three. Thats whats significant and what Im bringing up. One set undeniably evokes the imagery of their respective elements and the others dont. Im not having my cake and eating it too, Im merely point to factual evidence as well as aesthetic evidence for my claim.

I thought we discussed that point in our earlier debate, but if you're gonna pretend we never went over this, I guess I'll repeat myself: Why would Anderle say "ah yes, Air was Breathing and water was this undersea chant. You all know those from the bootleg that wont be released for many years." It makes no sense. What he could and Id argue would do, is cite the song WC since that was released and known to the public, albeit in a different form. The public had no idea what Breathing and UC were, nor any of the chants or anything PS. Why would he specifically cite any of those when nobody would know what hes talking about? Hell, those probably arent even the real names, just whatever someone who leaked the boot came up with. So he wouldnt even know what to call them. I suppose you could argue he ought to have went into greater detail about them regardless. But its possible he didnt want to steal Brian's thunder in case the track was ever released someday. That defense doesnt hold for WC because it was already released. And as I said in our earlier debate when you brought this up, if he did describe these recordings theyd sound stupid. "He had us breathe into a mic/imitate fish" Hed be doing a disservice to the recordings.

I think I present a pretty compelling case against WC and Dada. Far better than the arguments for them (no offense to anybody personally). It's just frustrating that theres virtually no hard evidence or primary sources for these two songs being elements, except where they eventually ended up, "gut feelings" and the title of one having wind in it. I present a long, pretty all-encompassing case against, and get "well we'll just agree to disagree" or "well I still have a gut feeling" as a response, and somehow *Im* being unreasonable. All I'm doing is calling attention to a bizarrely ignored fact--there is a plethora of experimental recordings that seem to give insight into his plans for Water and Air, as well as some rough ideas for the "spoken word humor" he mentioned in interviews, used in the Cantina Edit, and Smiley Smile.

/rant

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I suppose. But, like I said to Jason and HolyBee I'm open to be proven wrong. HolyBee eventually convinced me with Vega-Tables.* If you have any actual evidence besides Wind in the title and a gut feeling Id really like to see it.

*Ive kinda merged our two theories since then. It was an element early on, but then Brian realized it wouldnt really work because it didnt evoke that same unmistakable, visceral feeling and it had full lyrics which the other elements didnt. So Earth was going to be rewritten and Veggies became its own song, but once the elements was put on indefinite hold that never happened. This would explain all the conflicting evidence of some people pointing to Veggies, talking about health themes in the Elements, but then why Anderle and others say they have no idea what Earth was gonna be.

Defer to my previous post.  It's clear you want to misrepresent my suggestions to perpetuate an epic internet debate, which is not what I am interested in doing.  Maybe someone else will humor you, but I'm not interesting in hearing the feelings I get from a piece of music is wrong,and feelings you get from the same music is right. 

Have a nice day. 

Y'know, I might have had some respect for where you were coming from if it was a well-reasoned idea with some evidence. We're not talking about how each song makes us feel, we were talking about what we think Brian's plans were. When discussing history, or recreating a "crime scene" you need things like plausible motive, evidence, and timeframes to prove your case. Not "feelings." Not that your subjective feelings dont have merit, they obviously do, just not when debating the past as I said. What statements of your's have I misrepresented? Please enlighten me, because I dont recall taking any of your words out of context or with any malicious intent. I dont want an epic internet debate necessarily (tho admittedly Im not against it) Im just a SMiLE nut and hungry for information I may have missed or misinterpreted. I was curious if you had some well-researched reasons behind your argument you hadnt had a chance to list yet but I guess not. And please, lighten up. I'm not trying to argue your feelings are wrong, but I *am* going to argue your assertion of what a historical SMiLE would be is wrong if I think so and you cant defend it.

"In contrast, Wind Chimes is actually about wind/air."
"We learned that with Vege-Tables, we can indeed have a stand alone track as one of the four elements..."

^Those dont sound like feelings to me, but assertions of fact, which are free game to be challenged and potentially proven wrong. Sorry if that hurt your feelings but I thought disagreements backed up by logic and evidence were par for the course on a discussion forum.

Anyway, if you dont want to discuss the point further, fine.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Surf's Up is not about water, it's about the relationship between The Artist and his Art and the attempt to extract the art from the pretentiousness of it's surroundings...

Somewhat connected to this, I just went back to have a look at the famous "summary" given in GSHG!, and was struck by how many water/beach/oceanic references (naval battles, booze, tears) there are in Brian's explanation of the song as quoted by Siegel:

Then there’s the parties, the drinking, trying to forget the wars, the battles at sea. While at port a do or die. Ships in the harbor, battling it out. A kind of Roman empire thing. A choke of grief. At his own sorrow and the emptiness of his life. because he can’t even cry for the suffering in the world, for his own suffering. And then, hope. Surf’s up! … Come about hard and join the once and often spring you gave. Go back to the kids, to the beach, to childhood. I heard the word of God; Wonderful thing; the joy of enlightenment, of seeing God. And what is it? A children’s song!

And then there’s the song itself; the song of children; the song of the universe rising and falling in wave after wave...

To be clear, I am definitely not using this an argument for SU=Water or anything of the kind. Just thought it was vaguely interesting to note.

What I thought was really interesting, was:

“The joy of enlightenment, of seeing God. And what is it? A children’s song! And then there’s the song itself; the song of children; the song of the universe rising and falling in wave after wave, the song of God, hiding the love from us, but always letting us find it again, like a mother singing to her children.”

...which ties into what I said earlier:

I need to state my opinion here, that the ending Child reprise tagged on to Surf's Up--which Brian so adamantly believed should go there when the BBs were finishing it up--sounds like a metaphorical "amen" to me.  I could be wrong, but Vosse's comments, to me, seemed to describe that part, and the "Their song is love and the children know the way..." is the "amen" of SMiLE, not Our Prayer. 

I guess we all see what we want to see. 

To change the subject, and find some common ground...

I totally agree. I'd still like to try Prayer after Surfs Up sometime for curiosity's sake, but there's no reason that the "Amen" need be a literal church choir or prayer. Vosse seems like a reliable source, but still I think I'll go with a '66 Brian on the tapes in regards to Prayer.

With all the talks of how he saw humor and laughter as religious experiences in their own right at this time, is it possible that maybe Moaning Laughter or something could be the Amen too?

[The_Holy_Bee]

This all seems rather familiar, somehow...

The only reason this "Wind Chimes is Air" theory gained so much traction is because that was the assumption from Priore and other boots in the 80s and that got so entrenched it was written in to BWPS with the creation of the new third movement.

Except this (and a lot of other material above) is not the reason I used WC as "Air" in my current mix. And my reasons probably aren't any better, frankly, but what I do find troublesome - and thought so in the TSS forum too - is what SLN terms below as

your assertion that you know the underlying motive of my logic, that clearly I must have been brainwashed by Dominic Priore and Darian Sahanaja!

and a continuing tendency to hold what seems to me to be a contradictory position on burden of proof. Ie: To say:

I want some evidence that Wind Chimes was air aside from "well...its got wind in the title"

and offer examples of what evidence doesn't exist to connect 'em is fair enough.

But on the other hand, when we come to a personal hobbyhorse - ie. "Psycodelic Sounds" being a work-out for/development of/potential actual recording of parts of "The Elements" (I believe usually posited as all parts except "Fire") - then suddenly it's legitimate to make statements like this:

Undersea Chant and Breathing are unmistakably their respective elements.

And to use an argument like this:

"Anderle seems to know what Air and Water were more or less, but doesnt cite Wind Chimes at all. It makes all the sense in the world that he WOULD if thats what it was."

Right, so the Crawdaddy! pieces count when being used to discredit one theory. Great, that's what evidence should do. But in that case, the following statement (regarding the same interview and individuals) should hold equal water for you:

"Anderle discussed both The Elements and the PS Chanting at length in that interview, but doesnt ever draw a connection between them. It makes all the sense in the world that he WOULD if thats what it was."

Not that it matters, but sometimes your posts do look and taste a bit like cake being held and also eaten. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong about PS - in a way that I have conceded Wind Chimes almost certainly isn't/wasn't air - but if one is going to go about calling "Flimsy evidence!" on people I think it behoves them to hold their own arguments to an equally rigorous standard.

And, in case the above seems too harsh (I don't really post anywhere but here, so I suspect I often get the tone wrong): a very genuine   to all.

I mean, tell me truthfully, if it had not been such a popular theory in the 80s and 90s...enough that it got repurposed for BWPS, would you all be so willing to call it air? Would you really sift through all the material and say "ah yes, clearly Veggies, Wind Chimes, Fire and Dada were meant to be together." Maybe its presumptuous of me but I really dont think so. Not as many as there are, Id reckon. The idea that the album be divided into an Americana Side and Elements side is an old idea still prevelant today, but I dont think theres any evidence for it except the echo chamber that began in the 80s. As far as I can see, it was ONE SONG. And nobody has yet to convince me otherwise. Rather than acknowledge my points directly, it seems nobody can or will defend this position and acts like Im a jerk for daring to challenge it, or raise the possibility that MAYBE just MAYBE you guys are letting past assumptions sway you, even just a bit.

How is it so hard to believe that PS ISNT a collection of random ideas being played around with by Brian while his band was away? I mean...thats objectively what it is. This isnt a debate--there's a collection of experimental ideas he was working on at the height of the SMiLE sessions. The fact that it even exists at all shows he was playing around with ideas. You could say "yeah but maybe those werent meant for SMiLE!" to which I say Occams Razor. Youre trying to infer that a bunch of comedy bits about vegetables, traveling across America and doing little kid activities (buying ice cream) arent connected to an album with a song called vegetables with Americana themes and children? You mean these recordings where he has his friends act out an ocean landscape, breathe in rhythmic fashion, chant about fish, chant about veggies were completely unrelated to this song called the elements that was missing those three elements? Mighty big assertions, dude. I'm not the one pulling random interpretations of songs out of nowhere and claiming them as fact because "feelings!", I'm arguing common sense--if it looks like a horse and smells like a horse...well...

I guess the fact Brian took the time and money to have Wrecking Crew musicians record the Argument and Geroge Fell DURING THE SMILE SESSIONS means nothing too? No evidence there, right? Not to mention the fact that he's in complete command of these sessions, dictating exactly the scenarios he wants Hal and Vosse to enact, and for those Horn players to say. No, those are just Brian being stoned and goofing off. They arent important in the slightest--even if they were included on the boxset, albeit in bastardized form. I'm just making things up to support my "hobbyhorse" and ignoring the spellbinding reasons others are providing that we should continue to ignore PS exists, and keep on perpetuating the completely disproven myth of an elements side.

In any case, you took my words "unmistakably their respective elements" out of context. I meant, when you listen to those tracks, is their ANY doubt you're listening to some expression of air and water? Compare that to Veggies, Dada and WC and Id say there is doubt for the latter three. Thats whats significant and what Im bringing up. One set undeniably evokes the imagery of their respective elements and the others dont. Im not having my cake and eating it too, Im merely point to factual evidence as well as aesthetic evidence for my claim.

I thought we discussed that point in our earlier debate, but if you're gonna pretend we never went over this, I guess I'll repeat myself: Why would Anderle say "ah yes, Air was Breathing and water was this undersea chant. You all know those from the bootleg that wont be released for many years." It makes no sense. What he could and Id argue would do, is cite the song WC since that was released and known to the public, albeit in a different form. The public had no idea what Breathing and UC were, nor any of the chants or anything PS. Why would he specifically cite any of those when nobody would know what hes talking about? Hell, those probably arent even the real names, just whatever someone who leaked the boot came up with. So he wouldnt even know what to call them. I suppose you could argue he ought to have went into greater detail about them regardless. But its possible he didnt want to steal Brian's thunder in case the track was ever released someday. That defense doesnt hold for WC because it was already released. And as I said in our earlier debate when you brought this up, if he did describe these recordings theyd sound stupid. "He had us breathe into a mic/imitate fish" Hed be doing a disservice to the recordings.

I think I present a pretty compelling case against WC and Dada. Far better than the arguments for them (no offense to anybody personally). It's just frustrating that theres virtually no hard evidence or primary sources for these two songs being elements, except where they eventually ended up, "gut feelings" and the title of one having wind in it. I present a long, pretty all-encompassing case against, and get "well we'll just agree to disagree" or "well I still have a gut feeling" as a response, and somehow *Im* being unreasonable. All I'm doing is calling attention to a bizarrely ignored fact--there is a plethora of experimental recordings that seem to give insight into his plans for Water and Air, as well as some rough ideas for the "spoken word humor" he mentioned in interviews, used in the Cantina Edit, and Smiley Smile.

/rant

Righto. This was a nice little thread once.

My apologies to SJS if I helped to derail his thread. Hope y'all get it back on track in my absence.

Jason - I'll fire you a link to my mix once I've done the suggested rejigging.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

This all seems rather familiar, somehow...

The only reason this "Wind Chimes is Air" theory gained so much traction is because that was the assumption from Priore and other boots in the 80s and that got so entrenched it was written in to BWPS with the creation of the new third movement.

Except this (and a lot of other material above) is not the reason I used WC as "Air" in my current mix. And my reasons probably aren't any better, frankly, but what I do find troublesome - and thought so in the TSS forum too - is what SLN terms below as

your assertion that you know the underlying motive of my logic, that clearly I must have been brainwashed by Dominic Priore and Darian Sahanaja!

and a continuing tendency to hold what seems to me to be a contradictory position on burden of proof. Ie: To say:

I want some evidence that Wind Chimes was air aside from "well...its got wind in the title"

and offer examples of what evidence doesn't exist to connect 'em is fair enough.

But on the other hand, when we come to a personal hobbyhorse - ie. "Psycodelic Sounds" being a work-out for/development of/potential actual recording of parts of "The Elements" (I believe usually posited as all parts except "Fire") - then suddenly it's legitimate to make statements like this:

Undersea Chant and Breathing are unmistakably their respective elements.

And to use an argument like this:

"Anderle seems to know what Air and Water were more or less, but doesnt cite Wind Chimes at all. It makes all the sense in the world that he WOULD if thats what it was."

Right, so the Crawdaddy! pieces count when being used to discredit one theory. Great, that's what evidence should do. But in that case, the following statement (regarding the same interview and individuals) should hold equal water for you:

"Anderle discussed both The Elements and the PS Chanting at length in that interview, but doesnt ever draw a connection between them. It makes all the sense in the world that he WOULD if thats what it was."

Not that it matters, but sometimes your posts do look and taste a bit like cake being held and also eaten. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong about PS - in a way that I have conceded Wind Chimes almost certainly isn't/wasn't air - but if one is going to go about calling "Flimsy evidence!" on people I think it behoves them to hold their own arguments to an equally rigorous standard.

And, in case the above seems too harsh (I don't really post anywhere but here, so I suspect I often get the tone wrong): a very genuine   to all.

I mean, tell me truthfully, if it had not been such a popular theory in the 80s and 90s...enough that it got repurposed for BWPS, would you all be so willing to call it air? Would you really sift through all the material and say "ah yes, clearly Veggies, Wind Chimes, Fire and Dada were meant to be together." Maybe its presumptuous of me but I really dont think so. Not as many as there are, Id reckon. The idea that the album be divided into an Americana Side and Elements side is an old idea still prevelant today, but I dont think theres any evidence for it except the echo chamber that began in the 80s. As far as I can see, it was ONE SONG. And nobody has yet to convince me otherwise. Rather than acknowledge my points directly, it seems nobody can or will defend this position and acts like Im a jerk for daring to challenge it, or raise the possibility that MAYBE just MAYBE you guys are letting past assumptions sway you, even just a bit.

How is it so hard to believe that PS ISNT a collection of random ideas being played around with by Brian while his band was away? I mean...thats objectively what it is. This isnt a debate--there's a collection of experimental ideas he was working on at the height of the SMiLE sessions. The fact that it even exists at all shows he was playing around with ideas. You could say "yeah but maybe those werent meant for SMiLE!" to which I say Occams Razor. Youre trying to infer that a bunch of comedy bits about vegetables, traveling across America and doing little kid activities (buying ice cream) arent connected to an album with a song called vegetables with Americana themes and children? You mean these recordings where he has his friends act out an ocean landscape, breathe in rhythmic fashion, chant about fish, chant about veggies were completely unrelated to this song called the elements that was missing those three elements? Mighty big assertions, dude. I'm not the one pulling random interpretations of songs out of nowhere and claiming them as fact because "feelings!", I'm arguing common sense--if it looks like a horse and smells like a horse...well...

I guess the fact Brian took the time and money to have Wrecking Crew musicians record the Argument and Geroge Fell DURING THE SMILE SESSIONS means nothing too? No evidence there, right? Not to mention the fact that he's in complete command of these sessions, dictating exactly the scenarios he wants Hal and Vosse to enact, and for those Horn players to say. No, those are just Brian being stoned and goofing off. They arent important in the slightest--even if they were included on the boxset, albeit in bastardized form. I'm just making things up to support my "hobbyhorse" and ignoring the spellbinding reasons others are providing that we should continue to ignore PS exists, and keep on perpetuating the completely disproven myth of an elements side.

In any case, you took my words "unmistakably their respective elements" out of context. I meant, when you listen to those tracks, is their ANY doubt you're listening to some expression of air and water? Compare that to Veggies, Dada and WC and Id say there is doubt for the latter three. Thats whats significant and what Im bringing up. One set undeniably evokes the imagery of their respective elements and the others dont. Im not having my cake and eating it too, Im merely point to factual evidence as well as aesthetic evidence for my claim.

I thought we discussed that point in our earlier debate, but if you're gonna pretend we never went over this, I guess I'll repeat myself: Why would Anderle say "ah yes, Air was Breathing and water was this undersea chant. You all know those from the bootleg that wont be released for many years." It makes no sense. What he could and Id argue would do, is cite the song WC since that was released and known to the public, albeit in a different form. The public had no idea what Breathing and UC were, nor any of the chants or anything PS. Why would he specifically cite any of those when nobody would know what hes talking about? Hell, those probably arent even the real names, just whatever someone who leaked the boot came up with. So he wouldnt even know what to call them. I suppose you could argue he ought to have went into greater detail about them regardless. But its possible he didnt want to steal Brian's thunder in case the track was ever released someday. That defense doesnt hold for WC because it was already released. And as I said in our earlier debate when you brought this up, if he did describe these recordings theyd sound stupid. "He had us breathe into a mic/imitate fish" Hed be doing a disservice to the recordings.

I think I present a pretty compelling case against WC and Dada. Far better than the arguments for them (no offense to anybody personally). It's just frustrating that theres virtually no hard evidence or primary sources for these two songs being elements, except where they eventually ended up, "gut feelings" and the title of one having wind in it. I present a long, pretty all-encompassing case against, and get "well we'll just agree to disagree" or "well I still have a gut feeling" as a response, and somehow *Im* being unreasonable. All I'm doing is calling attention to a bizarrely ignored fact--there is a plethora of experimental recordings that seem to give insight into his plans for Water and Air, as well as some rough ideas for the "spoken word humor" he mentioned in interviews, used in the Cantina Edit, and Smiley Smile.

/rant

Righto. This was a nice little thread once.

My apologies to SJS if I helped to derail his thread. Hope y'all get it back on track in my absence.

Jason - I'll fire you a link to my mix once I've done the suggested rejigging.

Oh give me a break. All Ive done is respond to ideas that were brought up in the thread sincerely and in good faith. I realize I can be pretty long-winded in my replies but its because I like to discuss this subject and feel strongly in my position. If youre gonna accuse me of inconsistent logic and "having your cake and eating it too" Im sorry but Im gonna defend myself. Am I just supposed to let you call me out and not explain my reasonings? I mean, really, what did you expect?

[SenorPotatoHead]

One of my favorite Smile's, which I call Dumb Angel:

Our Prayer (w/laugh at end)
Surf's Up (man at opera, trippin' out, literally, figuratively or both, is enlightened to the "children's song")
Wonderful
Child Is Father of The Man
Do You Like Worms
The Elements
My Vega-Tables

Good Vibrations
Wind Chimes
Cabin Essence
I'm In Great Shape (w/Barnyard)
The Old Master Painter
Heroes And Villains

*the Elements used "water chant" but since it's been revealed that this was recorded later, I might nab Mujan's idea and sub the Underwater chant in its place.  My "air" was the WC piano tag, which I might keep - the separate WC track here is a hybrid of the Smile and Smiley versions.  The "earth" segment is FN/Woodshop, which I might also keep - though I do like Mujan's thoughts on the "skits" being element related.   Whether intended for that purpose or not, I think they could be utilized to great effect in such a psychedelic suite as this.  

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

One of my favorite Smile's, which I call Dumb Angel:

Our Prayer (w/laugh at end)
Surf's Up (man at opera, trippin' out, literally, figuratively or both, is enlightened to the "children's song")
Wonderful
Child Is Father of The Man
Do You Like Worms
The Elements
My Vega-Tables

Good Vibrations
Wind Chimes
Cabin Essence
I'm In Great Shape (w/Barnyard)
The Old Master Painter
Heroes And Villains

*the Elements used "water chant" but since it's been revealed that this was recorded later, I might nab Mujan's idea and sub the Underwater chant in its place.  My "air" was the WC piano tag, which I might keep - the separate WC track here is a hybrid of the Smile and Smiley versions.  The "earth" segment is FN/Woodshop, which I might also keep - though I do like Mujan's thoughts on the "skits" being element related.   Whether intended for that purpose or not, I think they could be utilized to great effect in such a psychedelic suite as this.  

I love how creative this sequence is, especially swapping Heroes and Surf. Any place to stream or download?

[Summertime Blooz]

I have a "gut feeling" that Wind Chimes was not intended to be the Air element back in 66. I have a "gut feeling" that Second Day is Air, and was, along with LTSDD a late, last ditch effort towards completeing The Elements before BW shut Smile down. It is a short piano piece with a happy airy feel and bird chirping sounds. Maybe it was Air, but who knows? That is my "gut feeling". I have a "gut feeling" that LTSDD was intended to represent Water. The first part has always reminded of river rapids out in the country, and the second part sounds like rain drops turning into a full rain shower. These impressions were made on me prior to me finding out that the track had a water association to it, so that is my genuine take on the imagery of LTSDD without that background information. I have a "gut feeling that IWBA/Friday Night/Workshop" was Earth because it sounds earthy and  I have a "gut feeling" that Workshop is a metaphor for the earth rebuilding itself after a fire, not some guy actually building something. That's my "gut feeling' on Earth. I guess I have a lot of "gut feelings". I'm not really very famialiar with all these Psychedlic Sounds pieces, but they're food for thought.

[SenorPotatoHead]

One of my favorite Smile's, which I call Dumb Angel:

Our Prayer (w/laugh at end)
Surf's Up (man at opera, trippin' out, literally, figuratively or both, is enlightened to the "children's song")
Wonderful
Child Is Father of The Man
Do You Like Worms
The Elements
My Vega-Tables

Good Vibrations
Wind Chimes
Cabin Essence
I'm In Great Shape (w/Barnyard)
The Old Master Painter
Heroes And Villains

*the Elements used "water chant" but since it's been revealed that this was recorded later, I might nab Mujan's idea and sub the Underwater chant in its place.  My "air" was the WC piano tag, which I might keep - the separate WC track here is a hybrid of the Smile and Smiley versions.  The "earth" segment is FN/Woodshop, which I might also keep - though I do like Mujan's thoughts on the "skits" being element related.   Whether intended for that purpose or not, I think they could be utilized to great effect in such a psychedelic suite as this.  

I love how creative this sequence is, especially swapping Heroes and Surf. Any place to stream or download?

Thanks.  SU as an opener even kind of works. 
but this is an old mix i have on cassette , however I ought to be able to re do it easy enough. 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I have a "gut feeling" that Wind Chimes was not intended to be the Air element back in 66. I have a "gut feeling" that Second Day is Air, and was, along with LTSDD a late, last ditch effort towards completeing The Elements before BW shut Smile down. It is a short piano piece with a happy airy feel and bird chirping sounds. Maybe it was Air, but who knows? That is my "gut feeling". I have a "gut feeling" that LTSDD was intended to represent Water. The first part has always reminded of river rapids out in the country, and the second part sounds like rain drops turning into a full rain shower. These impressions were made on me prior to me finding out that the track had a water association to it, so that is my genuine take on the imagery of LTSDD without that background information. I have a "gut feeling that IWBA/Friday Night/Workshop" was Earth because it sounds earthy and  I have a "gut feeling" that Workshop is a metaphor for the earth rebuilding itself after a fire, not some guy actually building something. That's my "gut feeling' on Earth. I guess I have a lot of "gut feelings". I'm not really very famialiar with all these Psychedlic Sounds pieces, but they're food for thought.

It's an interesting point about Second Day. I hate quoting another board member when I cant find the exact quote, but I remember reading from my lurker days AGD said he talked to someone in the know who said Elements would be two variations of two separate themes. He seemed to take that to be Fire/Fall Breaks and Dada/Second Day. I remember being fascinated by that idea at the time. I loved the title Second Day too, especially after someone pointed out that the Second Day is supposed to be when God separated the water and the air. More recently, I interpreted this evidence as two instrumental pieces and two acapellas. Fire/Workshop and UC/Breathing. Veggies as an element kinda throws a wrench into all this tho. Such is SMiLE.

I have a "gut feeling" I put too many jalepenos on my taco this afternoon.

[Sheriff John Stone]

One of my favorite Smile's, which I call Dumb Angel:

Our Prayer (w/laugh at end)
Surf's Up (man at opera, trippin' out, literally, figuratively or both, is enlightened to the "children's song")
Wonderful
Child Is Father of The Man
Do You Like Worms
The Elements
My Vega-Tables

Good Vibrations
Wind Chimes
Cabin Essence
I'm In Great Shape (w/Barnyard)
The Old Master Painter
Heroes And Villains

*the Elements used "water chant" but since it's been revealed that this was recorded later, I might nab Mujan's idea and sub the Underwater chant in its place.  My "air" was the WC piano tag, which I might keep - the separate WC track here is a hybrid of the Smile and Smiley versions.  The "earth" segment is FN/Woodshop, which I might also keep - though I do like Mujan's thoughts on the "skits" being element related.   Whether intended for that purpose or not, I think they could be utilized to great effect in such a psychedelic suite as this.  

Hang in there, The_Holy_Bee. Your contributions are invaluable.

SenorPotatoHead, I find your ending with "Heroes And Villains" interesting. For a period of time, I was doing the same thing, again going back to my preoccupation with lyrics, but also because of the fade (I used "False Barnyard" fading over the sunset/horizon). Every time I hear "Heroes And Villains", it strikes me as a "review song". It's in the past tense. "I've been in this town so long", "I've been taken for lost and gone", "fell in love years ago", "but she's still dancing", "just see what you've done", "my children were raised", and on and on. But then he switches to present tense with "I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough". That's the line! After all that he went through - the trip to America, the Indians, the bullets, the railroad, and the elements - he survived, he's fit with the stuff, and now he's ready to ride off into the sunset!

EDIT: I forgot to say why I eventually changed it, but it wasn't so much that I didn't like ending with "Heroes And Villains". It was because of "Surf's Up". I could never get comfortable hearing it anywhere but as the closer. And I tried! So, I moved "Heroes And Villains" toward the middle/end of the mix, AFTER he went off to sell his vegetables but BEFORE he confronted the elements.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

One of my favorite Smile's, which I call Dumb Angel:

Our Prayer (w/laugh at end)
Surf's Up (man at opera, trippin' out, literally, figuratively or both, is enlightened to the "children's song")
Wonderful
Child Is Father of The Man
Do You Like Worms
The Elements
My Vega-Tables

Good Vibrations
Wind Chimes
Cabin Essence
I'm In Great Shape (w/Barnyard)
The Old Master Painter
Heroes And Villains

*the Elements used "water chant" but since it's been revealed that this was recorded later, I might nab Mujan's idea and sub the Underwater chant in its place.  My "air" was the WC piano tag, which I might keep - the separate WC track here is a hybrid of the Smile and Smiley versions.  The "earth" segment is FN/Woodshop, which I might also keep - though I do like Mujan's thoughts on the "skits" being element related.   Whether intended for that purpose or not, I think they could be utilized to great effect in such a psychedelic suite as this.  

Hang in there, The_Holy_Bee. Your contributions are invaluable.

SenorPotatoHead, I find your ending with "Heroes And Villains" interesting. For a period of time, I was doing the same thing, again going back to my preoccupation with lyrics, but also because of the fade (I used "False Barnyard" fading over the sunset/horizon). Every time I hear "Heroes And Villains", it strikes me as a "review song". It's in the past tense. "I've been in this town so long", "I've been taken for lost and gone", "fell in love years ago", "but she's still dancing", "just see what you've done", "my children were raised", and on and on. But then he switches to present tense with "I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough". That's the line! After all that he went through - the trip to America, the Indians, the bullets, the railroad, and the elements - he survived, he's fit with the stuff, and now he's ready to ride off into the sunset!

I used to think of it as a great in media res opening. Now I can see it both ways.

[SenorPotatoHead]

Hang in there, The_Holy_Bee. Your contributions are invaluable.

SenorPotatoHead, I find your ending with "Heroes And Villains" interesting. For a period of time, I was doing the same thing, again going back to my preoccupation with lyrics, but also because of the fade (I used "False Barnyard" fading over the sunset/horizon). Every time I hear "Heroes And Villains", it strikes me as a "review song". It's in the past tense. "I've been in this town so long", "I've been taken for lost and gone", "fell in love years ago", "but she's still dancing", "just see what you've done", "my children were raised", and on and on. But then he switches to present tense with "I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough". That's the line! After all that he went through - the trip to America, the Indians, the bullets, the railroad, and the elements - he survived, he's fit with the stuff, and now he's ready to ride off into the sunset!

My feeling on HV is similar.  The whole "man at the opera" thing with SU (which Brian himself relays in GSHG) seems to naturally follow the opening invocation of "Prayer".   The children's Song he discovers is the rest of the album, the "trip across America, east to west" (though keeping in mind that trips are not always linear, they often take tangents, excursions - be they physical/geographic trips, or trips of the mind/heart/soul, stimulated by substances or not).
Generally speaking, though not exclusively, the other music on the album is more cartoony, more childlike.  As the Sheriff theorizes, HV caps off the whole thing with a recap of the events just transpired over the course of the album.  He's the same man from the opera (SU), but now he's found the way and all is well, and off into the sunset he goes.   

[The_Holy_Bee]

Thanks for the kind words, Sherrif. I was feeling a bit that I'd danced to this number before - and might put some of the dancers off with my textual flailing -but there's a lot happening on this thread I'm still really intrigued by.

This, for instance:

As the Sheriff theorizes, HV caps off the whole thing with a recap of the events just transpired over the course of the album.  He's the same man from the opera (SU), but now he's found the way and all is well, and off into the sunset he goes.   Smiley

Not sure if I can apply this (really lovely) interpretation to my mix without a major overhaul/equivalently major rethinking of my assessment of the album, but it's a great notion. I've tried not to apply too much lyrical analysis to my sequence 'cos I think one of the big problems faced in '66 was BW and VDP's increasingly divorced stance on that issue. This said, there's something quite evocative and appropriate there in this idea, and if I get the energy I might mess around with something along those lines myself.