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Author Topic: Your SMiLE mix...for the fun of it  (Read 73462 times)
Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2015, 08:19:30 PM »

Quote
I agree with you on those ^ points, but what does that tell us going forward?

Sorry, SJS - I think I just got what you meant in your initial post! Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it - several pieces of fan-mixing have now become enshrined in SMiLE lore and, indeed, endorsed as actual "SMiLE" sequencing through their inclusion in BWPS and subsequently, TSS. I guess the real question here is one of "authenticity". Does these decisions being taken so long after the initial sessions mean they fall outside the "window of credibility"? Or has their common adoption by both fans and the music's creators in the last thirty years mean they're as much a part of "what we know about SMiLE" as a '66 "Cabin Essence" assembly edit?

The problem is, it's hard to see how to explore that question without going back down the "Does BWPS = SMiLE" road, which has been well-travelled on these boards. Or else one just has to conclude that every sequence is equally valid, each edit theoretically viable. Or, as you put it:

Quote
The point is - anything goes. When we are looking at somebody's fan mix and we're tempted to think or say, "No, that would never go there...", well, you never know. Anything goes. A lot of people viewed BWPS as the real deal and a lot of people will view CD 1 of The Smile Sessions as the definitive version. Says who? To quote the late, great Jim Morrison, "There are no rules!"

I'm quite envious actually of those that are open enough to operate like that. All my work on a mix (see my first post in this thread) has been, rather boringly, on the basis that there was at one point (October '66-ish) an actual SMiLE, not finished or finally sequenced perhaps, but largely tracked, tracklisted and (Vosse) "totally conceived". I concede of course that I might be entirely wrong on this, but all my reading on the subject (period interviews, the sessionography, contemporary press) suggests to me it's a better historical assumption to proceed upon than the alternative.

It's also, I suspect, a lot less fun!

I know exactly what you're saying. There are times when I will reach a little bit - OK, a lot - and, as I mentioned above, shoehorn a track in somewhere just because it fits lyrically. But that placement is always accompanied by the thought, "Is there ANY chance Brian would've ever done THAT?"

With so many tracks post-May 1967, it's hard to be a purist or "historical", because you'd leave out some cool pieces.
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The_Holy_Bee
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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2015, 09:19:55 PM »

Quote
With so many tracks post-May 1967, it's hard to be a purist or "historical", because you'd leave out some cool pieces.

Weirdly, maybe because I quite like working within limitations creatively, I find it a bit of a relief not to be working with the whole spread of the SMiLE quilt. Certainly I'd never want to criticise a mix - musically, personally, creatively - because "Brian wouldn't have done that (I think)" or because it was in stereo, not mono (or vice versa), or because "comedy skit" bits were overdubbed onto instrumental passages, etc.

I guess the reason sometimes this approach bothers me - and a quick search for "The_Holy_Bee" on these forums will bring up a number of instances of me being bothered - is when fundamentally aesthetic decisions ("Well, Brian might have wanted all 26 minutes of H&V sections included - you know, like on a 12-sided single") are spuriously justified as being historically motivated ("I think AGD said that VDP told XYP once that one track had a bunch of different notes in it, and had another song with notes in the middle of it, and how else would you describe 'Do You Like Worms' than as a song with a bunch of notes in it? So clearly that song is really an extended bridge before the final bass notes of 'He Gives Speeches' and just before a bunch of outtakes from the GV sessions."). I have no beef with people mixing all this stuff together in any way that pleases them; nor do I deny there's a hella lot of confusion surrounding quite what the album's final form might have been, with contradictory statements coming from people who should presumably have all known the same stuff.

But there is a historical record, not quantifiable necessarily but certainly leading towards some kind of consensus on most of the tracks, and trying to form a thesis based on that material - and, as I've tried to do, construct a mix largely as a working proof (or not) of that thesis - is in its own way, I hope, a totally plausible approach to this material. And I know, SJS, that you're not arguing with that  - but the problem for me is when people want to have it both ways; throwing in all their favourite passages in order to not "leave out some cool pieces" but still vaguely claiming, despite any volume of evidence against it, that what they've done is more or less what Brian would have, given the time/money/support whathaveyou, in '66 or '67 (on which note: I believe it's quite clear from the tracking chronology, and the Anderle/Vosse interviews in '68 and '69, that the original SMiLE was dead by 1967. But I quite understand opinions to the contrary.)

I'm bothered by this not because we shouldn't be able to compile any SMiLE mix we wish to, using any information/personal tastes we wish to concentrate on, and have that function perfectly and beautifully in its own right. But because (to return to your OP) we are now living in a digital sphere in which personal mixing calls made in 1988 are often assumed to be '66 vintage; where third-hand information is frequently taken as from-the-horse's-mouth; where newbies learn from old hands - and sometimes what they learn are tired myths since disproved - and simply assume validity.

There is some kind of truth there somewhere, poking its nose out from the (swimming) pool of contradictory information, retrospective analyses and fan dreaming. And the more time that passes, the more active participants age and are lost (have you read the Crawdaddy! pieces with Anderle? At one point Paul Williams asks him point blank about "Child is Father" and  - not thinking it's important in '68 - Anderle kind of skips the question. What would even a vague description of the lyrics/structure/theme of that song be worth to us now? It's an enraging moment in an otherwise brilliant piece) the further that truth sinks down into the water.

So: yep, absolutely, we are now living in the post-TSS future, and I have no doubt dozens - hundreds? - of absolutely brilliant personal mixes will continue to emerge on youtube, dailymotion, vimeo, etc. As they should. It'd just be nice for the "historians" amongst us (and those new enthusiasts who're coming to these mixes without the years of research, learning and discoveries many of us have been around for) to have some kind of distinction made between a personal construction, based on taste, and a more academic attempt to "recreate what might plausibly have been." (For the latter - annotations, basically. Rough dating of sections, a description of method and justifications for the decisions that were made.)

Not to put either above the other, I just think it'd be useful - and increasingly so - for which is which to be made clear.

EDIT: My God. That was a long post. My apologies.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 10:08:08 PM by The_Holy_Bee » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2015, 10:03:55 PM »

I made my own little edit of "Heroes & Villains" using the box set tracks.  Too bad I have no way of sharing it here.
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« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2015, 11:05:46 PM »

Quote
With so many tracks post-May 1967, it's hard to be a purist or "historical", because you'd leave out some cool pieces.

Weirdly, maybe because I quite like working within limitations creatively, I find it a bit of a relief not to be working with the whole spread of the SMiLE quilt. Certainly I'd never want to criticise a mix - musically, personally, creatively - because "Brian wouldn't have done that (I think)" or because it was in stereo, not mono (or vice versa), or because "comedy skit" bits were overdubbed onto instrumental passages, etc.

I guess the reason sometimes this approach bothers me - and a quick search for "The_Holy_Bee" on these forums will bring up a number of instances of me being bothered - is when fundamentally aesthetic decisions ("Well, Brian might have wanted all 26 minutes of H&V sections included - you know, like on a 12-sided single") are spuriously justified as being historically motivated ("I think AGD said that VDP told XYP once that one track had a bunch of different notes in it, and had another song with notes in the middle of it, and how else would you describe 'Do You Like Worms' than as a song with a bunch of notes in it? So clearly that song is really an extended bridge before the final bass notes of 'He Gives Speeches' and just before a bunch of outtakes from the GV sessions."). I have no beef with people mixing all this stuff together in any way that pleases them; nor do I deny there's a hella lot of confusion surrounding quite what the album's final form might have been, with contradictory statements coming from people who should presumably have all known the same stuff.

But there is a historical record, not quantifiable necessarily but certainly leading towards some kind of consensus on most of the tracks, and trying to form a thesis based on that material - and, as I've tried to do, construct a mix largely as a working proof (or not) of that thesis - is in its own way, I hope, a totally plausible approach to this material. And I know, SJS, that you're not arguing with that  - but the problem for me is when people want to have it both ways; throwing in all their favourite passages in order to not "leave out some cool pieces" but still vaguely claiming, despite any volume of evidence against it, that what they've done is more or less what Brian would have, given the time/money/support whathaveyou, in '66 or '67 (on which note: I believe it's quite clear from the tracking chronology, and the Anderle/Vosse interviews in '68 and '69, that the original SMiLE was dead by 1967. But I quite understand opinions to the contrary.)

I'm bothered by this not because we shouldn't be able to compile any SMiLE mix we wish to, using any information/personal tastes we wish to concentrate on, and have that function perfectly and beautifully in its own right. But because (to return to your OP) we are now living in a digital sphere in which personal mixing calls made in 1988 are often assumed to be '66 vintage; where third-hand information is frequently taken as from-the-horse's-mouth; where newbies learn from old hands - and sometimes what they learn are tired myths since disproved - and simply assume validity.

There is some kind of truth there somewhere, poking its nose out from the (swimming) pool of contradictory information, retrospective analyses and fan dreaming. And the more time that passes, the more active participants age and are lost (have you read the Crawdaddy! pieces with Anderle? At one point Paul Williams asks him point blank about "Child is Father" and  - not thinking it's important in '68 - Anderle kind of skips the question. What would even a vague description of the lyrics/structure/theme of that song be worth to us now? It's an enraging moment in an otherwise brilliant piece) the further that truth sinks down into the water.

So: yep, absolutely, we are now living in the post-TSS future, and I have no doubt dozens - hundreds? - of absolutely brilliant personal mixes will continue to emerge on youtube, dailymotion, vimeo, etc. As they should. It'd just be nice for the "historians" amongst us (and those new enthusiasts who're coming to these mixes without the years of research, learning and discoveries many of us have been around for) to have some kind of distinction made between a personal construction, based on taste, and a more academic attempt to "recreate what might plausibly have been." (For the latter - annotations, basically. Rough dating of sections, a description of method and justifications for the decisions that were made.)

Not to put either above the other, I just think it'd be useful - and increasingly so - for which is which to be made clear.

EDIT: My God. That was a long post. My apologies.


If people want to hear officially sanctioned Smile product they can, y'know, buy the CDs or albums or whatever. There is also Spotify and other services to listen for free. That's the only way to know for sure that it's straight from the horse's mouth, and even then, Linnett has muddied the waters on occasion as has already been mentioned. I don't really think it's on fans to give full annotation or disclosure of where the puzzle pieces all came from with their fan-edits. As you said, the genie is sort of out of the bottle at this point, and it's hard to say what is real and what is fan-fiction, but so what? That's important to some people but not most people. If it sounds good, then go for it, I say. I think the most important thing, and I think this is what Sheriff is getting at, is that Smile is unique in it's many possibilities, and will continue to give us all pleasure in all sorts of permutations, whether released by Capitol or not.
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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2015, 11:47:37 PM »

Quote
If people want to hear officially sanctioned Smile product they can, y'know, buy the CDs or albums or whatever. There is also Spotify and other services to listen for free. That's the only way to know for sure that it's straight from the horse's mouth, and even then, Linnett has muddied the waters on occasion as has already been mentioned. I don't really think it's on fans to give full annotation or disclosure of where the puzzle pieces all came from with their fan-edits. As you said, the genie is sort of out of the bottle at this point, and it's hard to say what is real and what is fan-fiction, but so what? That's important to some people but not most people. If it sounds good, then go for it, I say. I think the most important thing, and I think this is what Sheriff is getting at, is that Smile is unique in it's many possibilities, and will continue to give us all pleasure in all sorts of permutations, whether released by Capitol or not.

I'm not sure I'm placing any particular weight on "officially sanctioned Smile product". If anything, the historical, commercial and personal pressures at play in official releases clearly outweigh those on the fringe efforts we've been discussing.

Actually, I think I more-or-less agree with you when it comes to most of your points above. All I'm saying is that a) the record suggests there is/was some kind of substantively if not fully "conceived" SMiLE out there at at least one historical juncture; b) many fan mixes are based on personal tastes as well as/instead of the historical record (which is absolutely fine) and c) as suggested by the original post on this thread (ie. "Water Chant" being affiliated with SMiLE and "Organ Waltz/Intro" becoming "Fire Intro") that without due annotation or acknowledgement those personal choices can be taken by newcomers as "the way it is and always has been".

Whether that matters, of course, depends on the individual, and if there's actually all that much more valuable unpacking to be done when it comes to the historical reality of SMiLE in the sixties. Maybe it really is time to accept that the "genie is sort of out of the bottle" and let 'er rip.
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« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2015, 06:09:22 AM »

A
1. You're Welcome
2. H&V (including IIGS and OMP/MOS)
3. Cabin Essence
4. DYLW
5. Holidays
6. Wonderful
7. Song For Children

B
8. CIFOTM
9. The Elements (V-T - LTSDD - WC - MOLC)
10. Surf's Up
11. Prayer
12. GV (single version, no humbedums)

There you go, 12 tracks, each LP side by sheer coincidence 22:30 minutes long.

I couldn't find a good way to fit IWBA/Woodshop, so I left it off and don't miss it.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 06:13:46 AM by Micha » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2015, 01:31:43 PM »

Im sure most of you know my ideas, since I list them a lot. But Ill reiterate here for newcomers/posterity.

Im a student of the two-suite school of thought. The similar moods, instruments, lyrical content and overall themes of certain songs leads me to believe they belong together. When grouped together they build off each other into larger messages and sound more pleasing than if they were interspersed randomly, and I think the third suite in BWPS sounds really forced and makes the whole album feel like less than the sum of its parts which is why Im against no-suite and three-suite mixes. Anyway, I divide the sides of vinyl by American and Cycle of Life, or alternatively, Piscean Age and Aquarian Age.

I believe the original tracklist to be more or less correct in terms of the songs listed. Since Great Shape is so bare tho, and the padding I tried with other fragments sounded very frankensteined and not good, Ive dropped that and stick with the other 11 songs. I like to use the Psychedelic Sounds to bridge together certain songs and keep the spoken word humor idea Brian mentioned in interviews and used in the Cantina Edit and Smiley Smile intact. My latest mix is 45 minutes on the dot. Probably longer than Brian wouldve done, but still plausible.

Side One

[Prayer] Do You Dig Worms?
Heroes and Villains
Cabin Essence [Taxi Cab skit]
The Elements [Fire/UnderseaChant/Breathing--Smog--Laughing]
Vega-Tables [essentially Earth, and ends with the Argument overlaid with the fade from TSS]


Prayer works well going into Worms. Goes well with the "CHURCH of the American indian" lyrics, the idea the pilgrims came here for religious freedom, accentuates the irony that they denied that same freedom to the natives, and just sounds nice.

H&V begins flutter horn, verses, cantina, children were raised, threescore and five, lala verses, Great shape instrumental, western instrumental, slower verses, tape explosion, H&V intro (because the train sounds set up CE perfectly)

CE ends with taxi cabber skit. Goes with the motif of traveling across America. First in ocean liners, then bikes, then trains and now a cab. It references Chicago specifically which is the perfect lead into Mrs O'Leary's Fire as Fire was originally called.

I had a big debate with HolyBee on the TSS forum about my elements so you can check that out for my reasonings. Basically, I believe the Undersea and Breathing skits were working ideas for Water and Air. Veggies is probably our best bet for Earth so I have that come after but still as a stand in for that element. Veggies is a great showstopping comedy finale in my opinion. The star Vega is the brightest in the constellation Lyra, an Eagle gripping a lyre, which to me is a hint it was meant to be an Americana song. Its H&Vs musical twin in sound and spirit and they went back to back on Smiley. The Elements too, could be a reference to "weathering the elements" that we think of when it comes to the first pilgrims roughing it. Also how we Americans have polluted the land ("bicycled rider, just see what you've done...")/the tranquil landscapes ruined by the iron horses, etc, and continue to pollute it (smog skit) and its throwing the elements out of whack (destructive fire, labored breathing). As for Veggies, I think it ties this elements tangent back to an Americana theme in that just as a fire leaves nutritional soil for things to grow, so too does the burning of the old Indian America leave room for a new, possibly better, nation to emerge.

Side Two

Good Vibrations
Wind Chimes [with part of Holidays as the end since side2 was much shorter than 1 otherwise]
Wonderful [opens with part of Basketball Skit, closes with original Heroes piano fade]
Child is Father of the Man [opens with Ice Cream Man skit overlaid with Workshop]
My Only Sunshine
Surf's Up [ends with George Fell after a pause as a sort of hidden track]


Where else could GV go but the beginning?

WC begins with whats usually considered the fade. I see it as a song about enjoying the simple things, the more mellow vibrations of being alone. I also see the merit in the loneliness/anticipation of death interpretations Ive seen here. I do NOT for one second, believe it to be the air element, and I think it sounds wildly out of place between Veggies and Fire.

Basketball sounds has a boy bumping into a girl and gives Wonderful an opening so it doesnt start so abruptly, as well as a foreboding feeling I think, and the new fade makes it sound more like a complete song. In a perfect world, Id like to recreate some kind of insert, which is what I think Brian wouldve done. Id like to use the backing vocals ("pretty baby wont you rock with me" and "mamamama") with the main lyrics from He Gives Speeches, as sort of the male point of view to the story, but again theres no way to do this with what we have.

I like how the piano in Ice Cream Man sounds and think it sets up Child pretty well, with the idea of recapturing youth at a later age. Your youth sets up what kind of man you become. This skit is overlaid with Workshop, which could either be read as the girl rebuilding herself after being taken advantage of, or the Man being built from the experiences of the Child.

OMP/YAMS I see as a loss of faith in traditional religion, as well as the sun setting on an older era (The Age of Pisces) and setting up the coming Age of Aquarius. I think it works great as a penultimate song, and while I completely understand arguments for it being Americana, I actually prefer it with the more somber Child songs now. I debated leaving the fade out but decided to keep it.

Surfs Up is a song about the old society crumbling and losing your way from desperation and despair, but finding hope and inspiration in the children/future/innocence. The lyric "canvas the town and brush the backdrop" recalls OMP which is another reason to put them together. The watery imagery from the title and aforementioned lyrical content seem to really convey an Aquarian mood to me. Look up astrological ages if you arent familiar, but Ive come to see this song as not only Brian showcasing how far the band came from their surfing roots, but also as his statement that the Aquarian age is here and its up to us to make the most of it. Anyway, I use Talking Horns sections for the second half and fade. Never liked the '71 fade personally. I used George Fell as a hidden track because its my speculation VT and SU were always meant to close their respective sides, and these two skits--the only ones recorded with Wrecking Crew professionals--were meant to either lead into or end these songs. Overall, I think this side of my mix is the weaker of the two but I still really like it.

If you wanna listen to this, check out my signature. I call it the Romestamo Cut.

Now, regarding the three points you make...


1-This is one of the few 80s fan speculations/BWPS revisions Im totally cool with, personally. Why? Because the Elements was never finished, never WILL be finished and we need to accept that. Still, theres this great piece of music called fire and its a shame that such a great song is just a small fragment that'd sound out of place by itself. H&V Intro tacked onto the front makes it into a complete, standalone instrumental track. It sounds great, better than any other alternative, and salvages two fragments that otherwise would be scrapped. Thats why this has stuck around.

2-I really dont know. I personally believe Water would have been similar to the Undersea Chant from psychedelic sounds, just rerecorded with the band proper and probably made more complex. Water chant isnt perfect, its far less interesting than Undersea Chant and probably not the original idea, but its as close as we will ever get. What I dont understand is how/why it got paired with Dada, and why Dada became so synonymous with Water. Theres nothing I can see that indicates this was the plan in '67, and to me the title, and wah-wah vocals seem to indicate a child/life song if it had been meant for the album. The fact that it grew out of a H&V fragment further proves it probably wasnt the original water, but then this follows the pattern with our modern Fire--take an unfinished idea and pad it out with an unrelated H&V fragment to make a complete song.

3-I used Workshop as Earth in my Olorin mix, and its my second favorite pic for Earth outside Vega-Tables. I think the reason its not cited as that more often is because of CK's reputation as you say, and also just the way she says it on the tapes sounds like an off-the-cuff "hey this'd make sense after fire!" idea thrown out by someone not in the know. If it were Brian saying that in the control booth I think the theory would be more accepted.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 05:43:10 PM by Mujan, B@st@rd of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2015, 02:01:14 PM »

About a year ago I had the idea to try and replicate a 1966 version of Smile, but I didn't get past an initial mix before I figured out (with the help of some here) that a true mix would leave quite a few holes unfilled, such as most of "Heroes & Villains" and "Vega Tables". So I blew that concept up and decided to take some of my ideas (mainly the decision to follow the Hand-Written Track List) and made a new version from scratch that I put up on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqQJAyhO_lI&feature=gp-n-y&google_comment_id=z12gclmy3qercx4b404cddjx2qqlednoiew

Basically it still follows the HWTL, but I took a couple of liberties by grafting in "Prayer" as part of "Do You Like Worms" and "Barnyard" as part of "I'm in Great Shape". My Elements are Fire > I Wanna Be Around > Holidays > Dada, and I utilized Brian's lead on "Surf's Up". I decided to exclude "Look" because without vocals it just seemed too unfinished and too hard to fit in.

The basic concept is two side-long suites, which is how I think it would have been released had it seen the light of day in 1967. I also worked in some of the many spoken-word segments from Brian's tapes to try to balance out some of the long instrumental segments. I do believe Brian would have incorporated spoken word in some fashion had he finished the album at that time, similar to the bridge on the Smiley "Wonderful". Smile was supposed to be avant garde, so I tried to respect that aesthetic with my latest mix.

Anyway hope you guys can dig it. Talking Smile mixes never gets old for me.

i love you, man
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2015, 02:09:51 PM »

I agree with you on those ^ points, but what does that tell us going forward? Both the "Intro To Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" (previously known as "Intro To Heroes And Villains") and the selection of "The Water Chant" (taken from the Wild Honey sessions) were "thought up" by individuals compiling fan mixes. And, I mean no offense to the talent of Mark Linett, but that's what he did for the 1993 Good Vibrations boxed set, and that's what whoever did who placed "The Water Chant" after "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". They were fan mixes.

Darian Sahanaja must've been impressed by these two placements because he adopted them in 2004, and Mark Linett with Alan Boyd followed suit again in 2011. Darian could've changed it in 2004 and Mark and Alan could've changed it in 2011 - but they didn't. I'm getting to the point.

The point is - anything goes. When we are looking at somebody's fan mix and we're tempted to think or say, "No, that would never go there...", well, you never know. Anything goes. A lot of people viewed BWPS as the real deal and a lot of people will view CD 1 of The Smile Sessions as the definitive version. Says who? To quote the late, great Jim Morrison, "There are no rules!"

Indeed. To me, it just says that the 67 SMiLE wouldve been a lot different than BWPS/TSS, hence why I dont feel bad remixing it. In fact, I see it as our duty as diehard fans, to offer something we consider closer to the original intent. Some people may laugh at that, but as you say those official releases took their own liberties which are just as significant as any you could accuse us fanmixers of making.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 02:17:18 PM by Mujan, B@st@rd of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2015, 05:25:16 AM »

Where else could GV go but the beginning?

At the end, of course, as on BWPS, and actually that's where I always placed it even before BWPS. To me, Surf's Up is a too sad song to end an album called "SMiLE". Had they stuck with "Dumb Angel", it would be a very good last song.

Do you use IWBA in your mix? Woodshop is out?
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« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2015, 05:45:37 AM »

Where else could GV go but the beginning?

At the end, of course, as on BWPS, and actually that's where I always placed it even before BWPS. To me, Surf's Up is a too sad song to end an album called "SMiLE". Had they stuck with "Dumb Angel", it would be a very good last song.



Of all the SMiLE songs that drive me crazy sequence-wise, "Good Vibrations" is at the top of the list. I always include it, that's not an issue. But, as I mentioned above, I put more emphasis on lyrics than I probably should, which causes a problem with "Good Vibrations". Because of this, obviously I've experimented putting "Good Vibrations" at or near the beginning...you know, discovering the girl. But, there are too many other better SMiLE songs for the beginning of the mix. I usually link "Good Vibrations" before or after "Wind Chimes", and "Wind Chimes" usually ends up 3/4 of the way through the mix ("in the late afternoon"), so "Good Vibrations" goes there, too...which I'm never completely satisfied with because of the lyrics. He's only picking up good vibrations 3/4 of the way through the mix? Sometimes I rationalize it by him "dreaming" about the girl while getting into his wind chimes.
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« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2015, 08:54:27 AM »

Good Vibrations is like the Sloop John B of Smile. It just doesn't fit lyrically with the rest of the album, but how do you leave a huge hit like that off the album? I think of it as being a song that's representative of the younger generation, at the vanguard of psychedelia, ringing in something new. It's production was certainly fresh and groundbreaking.  As such it can make some sense for Good Vibrations to follow Surf's Up and it's theme of regeneration (Am I reaching here? Maybe). Also, it just sounds great to follow the Brian & piano outro of Surf's Up with  the "ahhh- I love the colorful clothes she wears" of Good Vibrations.
      Hmmm... let me just check and see where Good Vibrations is included on that dang Capitol hand-written tracklist from December of 66. Maybe there's a clue. It's probably right at the top of the list since it was the #1 song in the country at the time and, supposedly, the list isn't really representative of the sequence that Brian had in mind anyway.  Let's see...huh, that's weird; the first song on the list is Do You Like Worms. Good Vibrations is listed fifth, between Surf's Up and Cabin Essence. Very strange indeed.
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« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2015, 06:13:45 PM »

Where else could GV go but the beginning?

At the end, of course, as on BWPS, and actually that's where I always placed it even before BWPS. To me, Surf's Up is a too sad song to end an album called "SMiLE". Had they stuck with "Dumb Angel", it would be a very good last song.



Of all the SMiLE songs that drive me crazy sequence-wise, "Good Vibrations" is at the top of the list. I always include it, that's not an issue. But, as I mentioned above, I put more emphasis on lyrics than I probably should, which causes a problem with "Good Vibrations". Because of this, obviously I've experimented putting "Good Vibrations" at or near the beginning...you know, discovering the girl. But, there are too many other better SMiLE songs for the beginning of the mix. I usually link "Good Vibrations" before or after "Wind Chimes", and "Wind Chimes" usually ends up 3/4 of the way through the mix ("in the late afternoon"), so "Good Vibrations" goes there, too...which I'm never completely satisfied with because of the lyrics. He's only picking up good vibrations 3/4 of the way through the mix? Sometimes I rationalize it by him "dreaming" about the girl while getting into his wind chimes.

Micha, to each his own. Personally I think some of you take the title a tad too literally. I think of it as a play on words, obviously smile as a tie in to the happy cover and spoken word humor, but also S.M.I2.L.E. the philosophy of psychonaughts like Timothy Leary. And just because the album has a happy name doesnt mean there cant be a few solemn spots. Just my take. For what it's worth tho, I do prefer Dumb Angel as the title. Should have stuck with that, in my opinion.

Also, I cant believe I forgot to mention it, but YES Workshop is in my SMiLE. It's overlaid with the new fade to Wonderful and the Ice Cream Man skit. I'll edit my post to add that detail, thanks. No IWBA tho, or Barnyard since we're discussing omissions. Im not personally a fan of the covers in SMiLE. I used to leave OMP out, but after really analyzing it (and the fact that its specifically on the tracklist) I came to see its importance and keep it in now. But Gee and IWBA are just extraneous and not very good compared to the other material to my ears. Since I brought it up, I like Barnyard and Look and other scraps too but somethings gotta get cut. I used to love everything and the kitchen sink versions of SMiLE but now I just see them as indulgent. Include too much and the album drags and, again, becomes less than the sum of its parts. My cutoff point is 45 because thats the cut of what LPs were capable of back then.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sheriff, yeah I would have to agree you're probably putting too much emphasis on lyrics. Pet Sounds has a bunch of songs about the course of relationships but they DONT follow sequential order at all. They're arranged by what sounds good coming after each other. Even though I group SMiLE into suites, the songs dont make perfect sense coming after one another there either. My Side two is all over the place lyrically but it works on a thematic/conceptual/musical level which I think is more important. But again, to each his own. It'd be boring if we all did the same thing.

Good Vibrations is like the Sloop John B of Smile. It just doesn't fit lyrically with the rest of the album, but how do you leave a huge hit like that off the album? I think of it as being a song that's representative of the younger generation, at the vanguard of psychedelia, ringing in something new. It's production was certainly fresh and groundbreaking.  As such it can make some sense for Good Vibrations to follow Surf's Up and it's theme of regeneration (Am I reaching here? Maybe). Also, it just sounds great to follow the Brian & piano outro of Surf's Up with  the "ahhh- I love the colorful clothes she wears" of Good Vibrations.
      Hmmm... let me just check and see where Good Vibrations is included on that dang Capitol hand-written tracklist from December of 66. Maybe there's a clue. It's probably right at the top of the list since it was the #1 song in the country at the time and, supposedly, the list isn't really representative of the sequence that Brian had in mind anyway.  Let's see...huh, that's weird; the first song on the list is Do You Like Worms. Good Vibrations is listed fifth, between Surf's Up and Cabin Essence. Very strange indeed.

It really is. I never used to like including it, and only do so now because it's on the tracklist and Brian specifically says it'll be on it in contemporaneous interviews. Like you say, it doesnt fit lyrically/thematically/conceptually or even instrumentally with any of the other songs. I think of Side Two as a series of vignettes about life, hence Cycle of Life suite. GV is a happy relationship, WC is enjoying 'Me time', Wonderful is overcoming an unhappy relationship/sexual experience, CIFOTM is your childhood setting the foundations of adulthood, OMP is losing faith in old ideas and moving on, SU is witnessing society around you failing but making a point of striving to do better and fix it, so the children might live in a better world than you did.

I wouldnt put too much stock in that track order. I definitely believe those are the actual songs intended (possibly sans GS) but there's no way that's the order. Aside from all the arguments we've all heard, one of our posters here uploaded a SMiLE mix following that list to a tee and, predictably, it sounded awful. Obviously not their fault, and Im really grateful they did so so that we could hear it, but that list just doesnt make any sense.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2015, 07:26:07 PM »

https://vimeo.com/136646972

Side A
(Our Prayer)
1. Heroes and Villains
2. Vege-Tables
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Child is Father of The Man
5. The Old Master Painter
6. Cabin Essence

Side B
7. Good Vibrations
8. Wonderful
9. I'm in Great Shape
10. Wind Chimes
11. The Elements
12. Surf's Up

Mono, no concept or side suites.  Cantina version of H&V.  I'm in Great Shape is presumed to be the mysterious "barnyard suite" which here is Barnyard/I'm in Great Shape/I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night, making it a complete song. 

I've only made a handful of revisions to my SMiLE mix since 2013:
- All tracks are unbanded as twelve (thirteen with Our Prayer) separate songs, no crossfades or segues.
- Child is now based off the structure of Brian's 3-minute test edit (chorus-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus) but with the opening chorus instrumental (as an intro) and the final chorus fading out, to mimic the structure "I'm Waiting For The Day", which I imagine is how the song would have been structured. 
- The Elements was greatly reworked, thanks to a thread about The Elements last year which got me brainstorming.  There I made a postulation that possibly instead of The Elements being a suite of four separate movements that each represent a different Element, what if it was one piece that represents the four elements interacting with each other?  So here I use the three different versions of Dada compiled together to represent the different elements balancing eachother out, prefaced by of course Mrs O'Leary's Cow and Water, and concluding with Whispering Winds.  This way, The Elements is a self-contained piece, and simply assuming Wind Chimes or Vege-Tables are the missing elements is no longer necessary. 
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« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2015, 07:49:07 PM »

I don't agree that there's anything inherently wrong with the sequence of the Capitol list. It's not my exact preferred running order, but it sounds just fine to me. Since so much is unknown about what the final form of those 12 tracks would have been, I don't see how anyone can say definitively that it wouldn't have worked, or it would have sounded awful. I think that whatever order you put this music in, the end result would be the exact opposite of awful. So- why not put stock in the order of the list? It's the only tangible that exists that gives a suggestion of what the final form of Smile was expected to be other than BWPS.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 09:11:20 PM by krabklaw » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2015, 08:16:10 PM »

Quote
I don't agree that there's anything inherently wrong with the sequence of the Capitol list. It's not my exact preferred running order, but it sounds just fine to me. Since so much is unknown about what the final form of the those 12 tracks would have been, I don't see how anyone can say definitively that it wouldn't have worked, or it would have sounded awful. I think that whatever order you put this music in, the end result would be the exact opposite of awful. So- why not put stock in the order of the list? It's the only tangible that exists that gives a suggestion of what the final form of Smile was expected to be other than BWPS.

I think it's very useful as - for me - pretty solid evidence of a) the number of selections that would have been on the record and b) their titles. On the other hand, the printed back cover slick does include the "See label for correct playing order" disclaimer, implying strongly that final sequencing of these twelve tracks had not been finalised and suggesting, in fact, that it was not to be precisely that given by the memo. The fact that the parentheses around "OMP" were drawn in and then crossed out is also pretty convincing support for the argument the listing was still in flux.

But yeah, I've done mixes of the album in that sequence and actually quite dug 'em. So I agree I don't believe there's anything self-evidently wrong with following the order given by the back cover/memo.
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« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2015, 08:19:33 PM »

I don't agree that there's anything inherently wrong with the sequence of the Capitol list. It's not my exact preferred running order, but it sounds just fine to me. Since so much is unknown about what the final form of the those 12 tracks would have been, I don't see how anyone can say definitively that it wouldn't have worked, or it would have sounded awful. I think that whatever order you put this music in, the end result would be the exact opposite of awful. So- why not put stock in the order of the list? It's the only tangible that exists that gives a suggestion of what the final form of Smile was expected to be other than BWPS.

Aside from subjective tastes (I personally think the album sounds like a mess using the order as listed) and arguments like all the heavy hitters are on Side 1, it seems like the author was listing the songs as they recalled them (again, all the big stuff comes first then the more fragmentary unfinished stuff) and Brian didnt write it... there's a very good reason to believe this wasnt the order. The disclaimer "See label for correct playing order." Why even include that, if it was already correct as is? Doesnt make sense.

Im not saying ignore the list, just take it with a grain of salt. As I said, it's almost certain that those songs--and those alone--were what was intended in December just before the album spiraled out of control. The sticking point for me (and others) is the exact order those 12 (11) songs would go in. But you're right, we cant know how good it would have sounded. New fragments, or humor bits, couldve been recorded to make that sequence work. And awful is an admitted exaggeration. "Not nearly as fantastic as it could be" is a better way to say it.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2015, 08:47:24 PM »

I've always put a lot of stock in the submitted hand-written list, even believing that Brian Wilson, in fact, did write it. I know that Brian was fairly recently asked about the list, and he claimed that he either didn't remember it or didn't write it, but Brian Wilson sometimes has problems telling the truth in interviews. Maybe - maybe - it was somebody else's penmanship, but if it was, then I believe that person was simply dictating what Brian told them to write. I base my opinion on this, and correct me if I'm wrong. Brian was responding to Capitol Records' request for a list of the SMiLE songs so they could begin the artwork/graphics for the album cover. Now, why in the world would anybody intentionally send in false information and intentionally mislead the record company, and, in effect, screw up things and waste a lot of money? You'd have to be a real asshole to do that. If you weren't sure of the songs, or for whatever reason didn't want to release the titles yet, all you had to do was make a simple phone call and explain your reasons. But to intentionally submit a list of songs that you knew WEREN'T the songs on the album? Why?

That being said, I don't believe the songs were sequenced on the list, for all of the reasons mentioned above, but for another admittedly questionable reason. But hear me out. The songs weren't numbered like 1. Do You Like Worms 2. Wind Chimes and so on. But I'll go one step further. Back in those days, artists and record companies DID THINK in terms of album sides and songs that led of sides and closed sides. On the SMiLE hand-written list, the songs were just listed one after the other. There was no break in the list for the end of Side 1 and the beginning of Side 2. And again, Capitol Records wanted the song titles for the album cover/label/graphics. I know the record company would think that was important, wouldn't also the artist?

  
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« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2015, 09:02:01 PM »

Maybe - maybe - it was somebody else's penmanship, but if it was, then I believe that person was simply dictating what Brian told them to write. I base my opinion on this, and correct me if I'm wrong. Brian was responding to Capitol Records' request for a list of the SMiLE songs so they could begin the artwork/graphics for the album cover. Now, why in the world would anybody intentionally send in false information and intentionally mislead the record company, and, in effect, screw up things and waste a lot of money? You'd have to be a real asshole to do that. If you weren't sure of the songs, or for whatever reason didn't want to release the titles yet, all you had to do was make a simple phone call and explain your reasons. But to intentionally submit a list of songs that you knew WEREN'T the songs on the album? Why? 

I agree with all of this, 100%. Hence why I say the songs are almost certainly correct, but the order is not.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2015, 09:31:07 PM »

I've always put a lot of stock in the submitted hand-written list, even believing that Brian Wilson, in fact, did write it. I know that Brian was fairly recently asked about the list, and he claimed that he either didn't remember it or didn't write it, but Brian Wilson sometimes has problems telling the truth in interviews. Maybe - maybe - it was somebody else's penmanship, but if it was, then I believe that person was simply dictating what Brian told them to write. I base my opinion on this, and correct me if I'm wrong. Brian was responding to Capitol Records' request for a list of the SMiLE songs so they could begin the artwork/graphics for the album cover. Now, why in the world would anybody intentionally send in false information and intentionally mislead the record company, and, in effect, screw up things and waste a lot of money? You'd have to be a real asshole to do that. If you weren't sure of the songs, or for whatever reason didn't want to release the titles yet, all you had to do was make a simple phone call and explain your reasons. But to intentionally submit a list of songs that you knew WEREN'T the songs on the album? Why?

That being said, I don't believe the songs were sequenced on the list, for all of the reasons mentioned above, but for another admittedly questionable reason. But hear me out. The songs weren't numbered like 1. Do You Like Worms 2. Wind Chimes and so on. But I'll go one step further. Back in those days, artists and record companies DID THINK in terms of album sides and songs that led of sides and closed sides. On the SMiLE hand-written list, the songs were just listed one after the other. There was no break in the list for the end of Side 1 and the beginning of Side 2. And again, Capitol Records wanted the song titles for the album cover/label/graphics. I know the record company would think that was important, wouldn't also the artist?

  

I think there's no mention of side 1 or side 2 because Brian hadn't locked down the running order, so certainly he wouldn't want to commit to what would be on what side. I think the list is his best estimate at that time of what he expected the final run order to be, but, as you said, the project was still "in flux". BW wasn't committing to that run order 100%. But I maintain my opinion that  the "see label" disclaimer was included just to leave the door open, in case BW wanted to make any late changes to the order, not because the tracks are listed randomly. And I keep going back to this: if someone was just listing the tracks in the order that they came to mind, then automatically, Good Vibrations, the #1 song in the country at the time, should be at the top of the list. I just don't see how it could be otherwise.
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« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2015, 09:50:11 PM »

But I maintain my opinion that  the "see label" disclaimer was included just to leave the door open, in case BW wanted to make any late changes to the order, not because the tracks are listed randomly. And I keep going back to this: if someone was just listing the tracks in the order that they came to mind, then automatically, Good Vibrations, the #1 song in the country at the time, should be at the top of the list. I just don't see how it could be otherwise.

I can agree with on the "see label" disclaimer, but not as much on "Good Vibrations" immediately coming to mind. And, that's because of one reason - we're talking about Brian Wilson. Have you seen any good movies lately, Brian? Norbit. What's your favorite movie, Brian? Norbit.

I'm not saying your theory is wrong, but I tend to believe he wrote 'em as he thought of 'em, and God knows how they came to his head at that particular time in history. And I'll go back to my shaky theory  Grin. If Brian was writing them per sequence, I still think there would've been additional markings and punctuation, even just a line separating sides. And, also, I think he might've "taken a shot" at sequencing even if he wasn't totally sure, although I agree with you that maybe he wasn't totally sure at that time. I wouldn't put an attempt at sequencing totally out of the question, I just don't think he did in this instance.
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« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2015, 10:01:07 PM »

I've always put a lot of stock in the submitted hand-written list, even believing that Brian Wilson, in fact, did write it. I know that Brian was fairly recently asked about the list, and he claimed that he either didn't remember it or didn't write it, but Brian Wilson sometimes has problems telling the truth in interviews. Maybe - maybe - it was somebody else's penmanship, but if it was, then I believe that person was simply dictating what Brian told them to write. I base my opinion on this, and correct me if I'm wrong. Brian was responding to Capitol Records' request for a list of the SMiLE songs so they could begin the artwork/graphics for the album cover. Now, why in the world would anybody intentionally send in false information and intentionally mislead the record company, and, in effect, screw up things and waste a lot of money? You'd have to be a real asshole to do that. If you weren't sure of the songs, or for whatever reason didn't want to release the titles yet, all you had to do was make a simple phone call and explain your reasons. But to intentionally submit a list of songs that you knew WEREN'T the songs on the album? Why?

That being said, I don't believe the songs were sequenced on the list, for all of the reasons mentioned above, but for another admittedly questionable reason. But hear me out. The songs weren't numbered like 1. Do You Like Worms 2. Wind Chimes and so on. But I'll go one step further. Back in those days, artists and record companies DID THINK in terms of album sides and songs that led of sides and closed sides. On the SMiLE hand-written list, the songs were just listed one after the other. There was no break in the list for the end of Side 1 and the beginning of Side 2. And again, Capitol Records wanted the song titles for the album cover/label/graphics. I know the record company would think that was important, wouldn't also the artist?

  

I think there's no mention of side 1 or side 2 because Brian hadn't locked down the running order, so certainly he wouldn't want to commit to what would be on what side. I think the list is his best estimate at that time of what he expected the final run order to be, but, as you said, the project was still "in flux". BW wasn't committing to that run order 100%. But I maintain my opinion that  the "see label" disclaimer was included just to leave the door open, in case BW wanted to make any late changes to the order, not because the tracks are listed randomly. And I keep going back to this: if someone was just listing the tracks in the order that they came to mind, then automatically, Good Vibrations, the #1 song in the country at the time, should be at the top of the list. I just don't see how it could be otherwise.

Well, thats actually an argument many bring up in support of Worms being the first song. That whoever wrote the list was thinking "ok, i know Worms is first" then listed the songs as they remembered them. Not necessarily listing them in order of importance, but thats how it played out more or less because naturally the more important songs are easier to remember. But still theres haphazard elements (wind chimes above the singles) which, to me, actually strengthens the interpretation that its someone just running down all the songs they can think of on the cuff. You can say Im reaching, but that just rings true to human nature to me.

In any case, even you acknowledge the sequence was undeniably still in a state of flux. Personally, I put a lot of stock in the interviews where Brian says the original SMiLE wouldve been "less uplifting" (see Micha, the titles not everything  Grin) and a two suite cantata. How when asked what allowed him to finish it, he said "a third movement" implying movements were always the plan, its just that certain songs were picked to fill a new elemental context. Even though I dont take BWPS very seriously in terms of evidence, I do agree with Darian about the second movement being "pure Brian Wilson" and it's undeniable that at least 4 or 5 songs all clearly work together in an Americana context. You dont get any of that by following the list as is.

There's a few things that I ended up using from the list, like Veggies after Elements...OMP and CIFOTM together...IIGS and Wonderful together (I used GS as an intro to Wonderful in my Aquarian mix) and OMP coming last (I did that in Olorin, Brian saying "This is the big finale"). There's a few I havent used but could see working, like Worms going into WC and CE closing a side. But then theres some transitions I loathe and dont think work at all. WC into H&V, H&V into SU, GV into CE, CIFOTM into Elements and Veggies into OMP. Overall, it's just a very mixed bag. I dont think anyone, even the people who say they like it, would claim this is the best sequence. Even Priore's Americana/Elements configuration, which I dont like for many reasons, works better. If this was Brians intended sequence, I think he was making a mistake, and that could maybe even be a reason he started reworking everything so extensively.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 10:18:59 PM by Mujan, B@st@rd of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2015, 11:34:43 PM »

Quote
But still theres haphazard elements (wind chimes above the singles) which, to me, actually strengthens the interpretation that its someone just running down all the songs they can think of on the cuff.

I think you're largely right (not sure the list is just "all the songs they can think of off the cuff", I like to think it was slightly more considered than that), and in fact this theory is if anything supported by the placing of Wind Chimes second. Both Anderle and Vosse refer to it on multiple occasions in their interviews (more often than "Surf's Up", almost as frequently as "H&V"), Vosse saying: "What was that thing, that think of Brian and Van Dyke's.... They played it for us all the time... 'Wind Chimes'." So maybe not one of "the important tracks" as we now think of them, but things were evidently different in '66. And if Brian was indeed "play[ing] it... all the time" little wonder it placed so high up the list - and this supports the idea the list writer (or dictator) was jotting songs down in order of familiarity as much as with any particular sequence in mind.
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« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2015, 12:37:56 AM »

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But still theres haphazard elements (wind chimes above the singles) which, to me, actually strengthens the interpretation that its someone just running down all the songs they can think of on the cuff.

I think you're largely right (not sure the list is just "all the songs they can think of off the cuff", I like to think it was slightly more considered than that), and in fact this theory is if anything supported by the placing of Wind Chimes second. Both Anderle and Vosse refer to it on multiple occasions in their interviews (more often than "Surf's Up", almost as frequently as "H&V"), Vosse saying: "What was that thing, that think of Brian and Van Dyke's.... They played it for us all the time... 'Wind Chimes'." So maybe not one of "the important tracks" as we now think of them, but things were evidently different in '66. And if Brian was indeed "play[ing] it... all the time" little wonder it placed so high up the list - and this supports the idea the list writer (or dictator) was jotting songs down in order of familiarity as much as with any particular sequence in mind.

Very interesting. That seems to corroborate it then.

Anyway, if none of you look at it I understand, but in another thread Im discussing numerology in SMiLE, ie how he may have arranged the titles so that each side totaled to the same number. I have no reason to think this is something he'd want to do, just thought itd be an interesting experiment. Neither the Capitol groupings nor my Romestamo ones held up under this scrutiny. But what did was my Olorin sequence. That is:

Side 1: Worms, Great Shape, Veggies, Heroes, Cabin, OMP
Side 2: GV, Elements, WC, Wonderful, CIFOTM, Surfs Up

Now, Im not using this to assert that that sequence, or those groupings, must then be definitive. But it is something to consider. Id like to see if anyone else could group the accepted 12 tracks in such a way to create balanced totals too. Again, it could all be a red herring, but Brian was really interested in astrology, numerology and other new age philosophies at the time. I think looking at it under an astrological context provided some cool insight, like Vega the star and its place as part of Lyra seems to confirm my belief in Veggies being Americana, as well as both sides roughly embodying Piscean and Aquarian Age ideals. When I wrote that post, I had my Romestamo sequence in mind, but the Olorin one is similar enough that it could apply to that too. Now with this whole numerology angle, perhaps I was really unto something there with that mix. Hmmm...

IDK. Just something else to think about.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2015, 06:38:39 AM »

I think you're largely right (not sure the list is just "all the songs they can think of off the cuff", I like to think it was slightly more considered than that), and in fact this theory is if anything supported by the placing of Wind Chimes second. Both Anderle and Vosse refer to it on multiple occasions in their interviews (more often than "Surf's Up", almost as frequently as "H&V"), Vosse saying: "What was that thing, that think of Brian and Van Dyke's.... They played it for us all the time... 'Wind Chimes'." So maybe not one of "the important tracks" as we now think of them, but things were evidently different in '66. And if Brian was indeed "play[ing] it... all the time" little wonder it placed so high up the list - and this supports the idea the list writer (or dictator) was jotting songs down in order of familiarity as much as with any particular sequence in mind.

Could be that Wind Chimes was one of the most finished songs in Brian's mind.  It was one of the few SMiLE tracks in which he had completely finished tracking it and made a test edit of the assembled track with all the vocals, and fairly early on in the sessions. 

I've always interpreted that list as, whomever was writing it, put the most complete or at least visualized/conceptualized songs first:
- Do You Like Worms had all it's segments in place even though no lead vocals
- Wind Chimes was in the can, as stated above
- Heroes and Villains wasn't done, but Brian knew it was the lead single so it needed to be listed
- Surf's Up was at least demo'd in completion twice
- Good Vibrations was in the can obviously
- Cabin Essence, like DYLW, had a track assembly even though no lead vocals
- Wonderful was at least conceptually mapped out even if Brian hadn't  felt he recorded the definite version of it by January

Then the compiler, possibly off the top of his head, moved on to the songs that hadn't been fully realized yet or not even properly recorded:
- I'm in Great Shape, no one really knows wtf it is!
- Child is Father of the Man, Brian was not sure how it should be assembled and lacked anything but chorus vocals
- The Elements might have only been 50% recorded at all, with Fire and possibly Water if you believe Dada was it (which wouldn't get tracked for another 4 months anyways)
- Vege-Tables was demo'd roughly, but wouldn't even be tracked formally for another 3 months
- The Old Master Painter's fade had been gutted for Heroes and Villains, leaving it unfinished ("Should I put parenthesis around it then, Brian?")
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