Your SMiLE mix...for the fun of it

[Phoenix]

double post

[Phoenix]

I'm not disagreeing with you. Hell, what do I know?

But it never made any sense to me. It's morning, the guy tumbles out of bed, fresh air all around his head, he's surrounded by agriculture, he's in great shape! And then, a second later, pieces of his broken heart are being put back together. OOOOKKKKK...

Don't get me wrong. That's what I honestly think Brian's plan was (once GS got spun out of HV). I never once said it made any sense either.  

My ONLY guess is the guy SAYS he's in great shape and the noise explosion is a breakdown(? break UP?), leaving him now in pieces.  Or the first part is his outward appearance, while INside...  Or who the Hell knows?    

For all we know, Brian heard IWBA one night and came up with the rebuilding joke and decided to include it on the album but, like the other fragments, thought it needed more, looked at the giant modular jigsaw puzzle with no directions in front of him and decided then and there that "Great Shape" was the Tab A to his IWBA joke's Slot B.  

Like I said, I'm 100% convinced that was his plan but I don't think it makes much more sense than you do.  

[Sheriff John Stone]

After reading your articulate posts, I think you should write to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, or start a campaign or something, and try to persuade them to sit down with Darian Sahanaja - over several days! - and take each SMiLE track one at a time and tell everything they know/remember about them.

I realize this post is directed at Mujan - and I quite agree with its sentiment! - but it does remind me of a relevant story I'm not sure I've shared here before. Right at the end of the '04 SMiLE tour, Brian and his band played in Wellington, New Zealand. I was lucky enough to be sitting in the fourth row, right behind a group of BB fanatics who recognized me (though a little younger) as one of their own. As a result, I was invited to have a few drinks with the band at the Intercontinental Hotel after the show.

My friend Chris, who sadly died very young a couple of years back, and I spent a number of hours hanging with several of the musicians - most of that time chatting with Darian and Nick. They were both incredibly friendly and patient with two young SMiLE geeks, especially considering it was right at the end of a major and involved tour and did seem quite tired and keen to take a break. Nick particularly talked a bit about getting into more non-BW, Wondermints-focussed musical activity now SMiLE was 'over', though this doesn't seem to have really happened. (Surreal moment for a 22 year old: sitting on a street bench in downtown Wellington at 2am, eating kebabs with Brian Wilson's guitarist while he tells you about being responsible for song selection in an impromptu trailer-based jam session with Neil Young, Pete Townshend and Eric Clapton.)

It was about ten years ago, obviously, so much of what we discussed is now lost to history, but I did ask Darian about 'Child is Father of the Man' lyrics at least ('Van Dyke didn't have them - I don't think he was sure if he'd ever actually written any.') My overall 'takeaway' is that, in his many conversations with BW & VDP while putting together BWPS, there weren't actually many secrets to be revealed - or, at least, able to be recalled - regarding sequencing intentions, missing lyrics, etc. In short, if Brian or Van Dyke had remembered any particular plans for the album from '66, my impression is that they would have been employed in the eventual assembly. Indeed, when either did make any such suggestions - Look into CFOTM, for instance - they were usually, and immediately, implemented. I didn't get the sense that Darian felt there was all that much info still to excavate.

One other quick memory, on a lighter note, was Darian's fantastic story about the night of SMiLE's London premiere, when he was sitting with Brian at the back of the reception room after the show. 'Brian,' Darian said, seeing Paul McCartney and his bodyguard on the far side of the room, 'You know you and Sir Paul have always been my most important musical influences. No problem if you're uncomfortable about it, but do you think I might be able to get a photo with the two of you?'

Brian paused, looked seriously at Darian for a moment, and then suddenly hollered at top volume across the room, gesturing vaguely at his longtime collaborator and 'musical secretary': 'HEY PAUL! WANNA TAKE A PHOTO WITH THIS GUY?'

Macca immediately waved away his security, came over to the bench and sat on the other side of Darian, arm over his shoulder, for the requested picture. Which was still in his wallet when he told us that story about a decade ago.

Great post, and thanks for sharing those stories.! They're gold!

The only thing I want to say about Brian and Van Dyke possibly not revealing or disclosing "everything they recalled" from 1966-67 is, and I know it sounds like I'm rationalizing, but after it was decided or determined that the 2004 BWPS was going to be a three movement, live rock opera, what was the point of trying to recreate the 1966-67 SMiLE album? The live aspect of BWPS gave them the opportunity to take so many liberties (which they did, using tracks from the Wild Honey sessions and Mark Linett early 1990's studio experiments). I am of the opinion that if the goal was not to do a live presentation of the SMiLE music, but to (re)construct how the 1966-67 SMiLE album might've appeared, there would've been significant differences between the two, and Brian and Van Dyke might've (would've) been more forthcoming with historical remembrances and "secrets". Again, just an opinion.

[Phoenix]

And a good one at that.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

After reading your articulate posts, I think you should write to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, or start a campaign or something, and try to persuade them to sit down with Darian Sahanaja - over several days! - and take each SMiLE track one at a time and tell everything they know/remember about them.

I realize this post is directed at Mujan - and I quite agree with its sentiment! - but it does remind me of a relevant story I'm not sure I've shared here before. Right at the end of the '04 SMiLE tour, Brian and his band played in Wellington, New Zealand. I was lucky enough to be sitting in the fourth row, right behind a group of BB fanatics who recognized me (though a little younger) as one of their own. As a result, I was invited to have a few drinks with the band at the Intercontinental Hotel after the show.

My friend Chris, who sadly died very young a couple of years back, and I spent a number of hours hanging with several of the musicians - most of that time chatting with Darian and Nick. They were both incredibly friendly and patient with two young SMiLE geeks, especially considering it was right at the end of a major and involved tour and did seem quite tired and keen to take a break. Nick particularly talked a bit about getting into more non-BW, Wondermints-focussed musical activity now SMiLE was 'over', though this doesn't seem to have really happened. (Surreal moment for a 22 year old: sitting on a street bench in downtown Wellington at 2am, eating kebabs with Brian Wilson's guitarist while he tells you about being responsible for song selection in an impromptu trailer-based jam session with Neil Young, Pete Townshend and Eric Clapton.)

It was about ten years ago, obviously, so much of what we discussed is now lost to history, but I did ask Darian about 'Child is Father of the Man' lyrics at least ('Van Dyke didn't have them - I don't think he was sure if he'd ever actually written any.') My overall 'takeaway' is that, in his many conversations with BW & VDP while putting together BWPS, there weren't actually many secrets to be revealed - or, at least, able to be recalled - regarding sequencing intentions, missing lyrics, etc. In short, if Brian or Van Dyke had remembered any particular plans for the album from '66, my impression is that they would have been employed in the eventual assembly. Indeed, when either did make any such suggestions - Look into CFOTM, for instance - they were usually, and immediately, implemented. I didn't get the sense that Darian felt there was all that much info still to excavate.

One other quick memory, on a lighter note, was Darian's fantastic story about the night of SMiLE's London premiere, when he was sitting with Brian at the back of the reception room after the show. 'Brian,' Darian said, seeing Paul McCartney and his bodyguard on the far side of the room, 'You know you and Sir Paul have always been my most important musical influences. No problem if you're uncomfortable about it, but do you think I might be able to get a photo with the two of you?'

Brian paused, looked seriously at Darian for a moment, and then suddenly hollered at top volume across the room, gesturing vaguely at his longtime collaborator and 'musical secretary': 'HEY PAUL! WANNA TAKE A PHOTO WITH THIS GUY?'

Macca immediately waved away his security, came over to the bench and sat on the other side of Darian, arm over his shoulder, for the requested picture. Which was still in his wallet when he told us that story about a decade ago.

Great post, and thanks for sharing those stories.! They're gold!

The only thing I want to say about Brian and Van Dyke possibly not revealing or disclosing "everything they recalled" from 1966-67 is, and I know it sounds like I'm rationalizing, but after it was decided or determined that the 2004 BWPS was going to be a three movement, live rock opera, what was the point of trying to recreate the 1966-67 SMiLE album? The live aspect of BWPS gave them the opportunity to take so many liberties (which they did, using tracks from the Wild Honey sessions and Mark Linett early 1990's studio experiments). I am of the opinion that if the goal was not to do a live presentation of the SMiLE music, but to (re)construct how the 1966-67 SMiLE album might've appeared, there would've been significant differences between the two, and Brian and Van Dyke might've (would've) been more forthcoming with historical remembrances and "secrets". Again, just an opinion.

I wish there was a clapping emoticon. This is another long rehashed argument I find myself getting into that I wish could be put to bed. I guess its semi-fair when people say there was no 66-67 album so whats the point? I disagree with them, and think there was a rough outline and enough material and clues to make something in that vein (most of which knock the BWPS/TSS sequence out of the park as far as Im concerned) but I can understand the attitude of "that one wasnt finished, this one is, ill stick to whats official." What I dont get--and you dont see too much on here but Ive seen it elsewhere--is the attitude that BWPS is SMiLE faithfully reconstructed. Ignoring qualms about the 3rd suite not being as good, it just plain wouldnt fit on a vinyl. Even if it did, youd have to split up the second suite--which is near universally considered the best and definitely flows the best if nothing else--which defeats the purpose of having suites in the first place. Ignoring the whole Elements is 4 songs argument I believe I just eviscerated earlier, there's also the problems of length and the tracklist, as well as using the H&V intro in front of Fire, new lyrics over the water chant and for Holidays, and other anachronisms like that. Things like Gee awkwardly stuck unto Prayer, Barnyard as its own song, etc to me reek of "well, the public knows this is SMiLE and expects to hear it...but it doesnt really fit anywhere...probably wouldve been cut or extensively reworked back in the day, but we cant change it too much--and dont want to anyway. What the hell, stick it here." That kind of thinking. Not to mention extremely questionable sequence choices (the upbeat IIGS and VT right after Surfs Up, Scary Fire right after Tranquil Wind Chimes, all the worst songs like Barnyard and OMP come in the beginning, Worms right after Heroes accentuates the stolen chorus, etc) and finally--none of the beautiful fades remained. Gone are the amazing Veggies, Wind, CE, CIFOTM and Surfs Up fades. No way is this SMiLE. Its a live presentation of the SMiLE material. Its awesome for what it is, but not what the original album wouldve been, and in my opinion far worse than even the poorest adaptation of that. Even tho they called VDP back--which some use to legitimize it as the final word, the real deal--they only did so because they forgot some of the lyrics. Its cool he came back and helped finish it, but that wasnt Brian and Darian's intention. Anyway, Im not trying to piss all over BWPS--its a great album, and a better live experience. Its just not the same as what SMiLE wouldve been. Its missing that dark undertone, the trippy quality, and the humorous and at times disturbing Psychedelic Sounds.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

After reading your articulate posts, I think you should write to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, or start a campaign or something, and try to persuade them to sit down with Darian Sahanaja - over several days! - and take each SMiLE track one at a time and tell everything they know/remember about them.

I realize this post is directed at Mujan - and I quite agree with its sentiment! - but it does remind me of a relevant story I'm not sure I've shared here before. Right at the end of the '04 SMiLE tour, Brian and his band played in Wellington, New Zealand. I was lucky enough to be sitting in the fourth row, right behind a group of BB fanatics who recognized me (though a little younger) as one of their own. As a result, I was invited to have a few drinks with the band at the Intercontinental Hotel after the show.

My friend Chris, who sadly died very young a couple of years back, and I spent a number of hours hanging with several of the musicians - most of that time chatting with Darian and Nick. They were both incredibly friendly and patient with two young SMiLE geeks, especially considering it was right at the end of a major and involved tour and did seem quite tired and keen to take a break. Nick particularly talked a bit about getting into more non-BW, Wondermints-focussed musical activity now SMiLE was 'over', though this doesn't seem to have really happened. (Surreal moment for a 22 year old: sitting on a street bench in downtown Wellington at 2am, eating kebabs with Brian Wilson's guitarist while he tells you about being responsible for song selection in an impromptu trailer-based jam session with Neil Young, Pete Townshend and Eric Clapton.)

It was about ten years ago, obviously, so much of what we discussed is now lost to history, but I did ask Darian about 'Child is Father of the Man' lyrics at least ('Van Dyke didn't have them - I don't think he was sure if he'd ever actually written any.') My overall 'takeaway' is that, in his many conversations with BW & VDP while putting together BWPS, there weren't actually many secrets to be revealed - or, at least, able to be recalled - regarding sequencing intentions, missing lyrics, etc. In short, if Brian or Van Dyke had remembered any particular plans for the album from '66, my impression is that they would have been employed in the eventual assembly. Indeed, when either did make any such suggestions - Look into CFOTM, for instance - they were usually, and immediately, implemented. I didn't get the sense that Darian felt there was all that much info still to excavate.

One other quick memory, on a lighter note, was Darian's fantastic story about the night of SMiLE's London premiere, when he was sitting with Brian at the back of the reception room after the show. 'Brian,' Darian said, seeing Paul McCartney and his bodyguard on the far side of the room, 'You know you and Sir Paul have always been my most important musical influences. No problem if you're uncomfortable about it, but do you think I might be able to get a photo with the two of you?'

Brian paused, looked seriously at Darian for a moment, and then suddenly hollered at top volume across the room, gesturing vaguely at his longtime collaborator and 'musical secretary': 'HEY PAUL! WANNA TAKE A PHOTO WITH THIS GUY?'

Macca immediately waved away his security, came over to the bench and sat on the other side of Darian, arm over his shoulder, for the requested picture. Which was still in his wallet when he told us that story about a decade ago.

Thats really awesome on Darian's part. As much as I criticize BWPS, I want to make sure its known I think hes an awesome guy and musician and am happy he was able to help Brian get comfortable with, and remake SMiLE. He deserves to live the dream of meeting his idols. And that story is classic Brian

I definitely think sequencing is a lost cause. There was no official sequence order, but I do strongly believe there were groupings--as in, they knew which sides each song would fit on. Just put all the bombastic Americana songs on one side (Heroes, Worms, CE, OMP, IIGS, Veggies) and the more somber, piano/harpsichord and horn heavy life tracks on the other. They can roughly be categorized as Piscean and Aquarian Age ideals summarized that way too, and add up to the same number according to numerology, both of which Brian was into and (according to Anderle) trying to express in SMiLE. Im convinced of this. We all agree on Americana being a theme running thru roughly half the songs. The second suite is almost universally considered the best of the 3 in BWPS. I think, once (if) more people can put aside the idea of an Elements suite (which, again, physical evidence and the songs themselves dont support) this interpretation will gain more traction. These groupings are unquestionably canon, in my opinion. I dont know if Brian and VDP would ever admit so now, but BWPS itself seems proof enough. They put the two they knew of first, and "added" a third since Brian wanted to express the Elements but that track was never finished. So, they took some of the other songs that could conceivably fit ("Veggies used to be an element/they come from the Earth" & "Well its got wind in the title" & "this became CCW anyway") and beefed up Fire into song-length using Mark's idea of putting the Heroes intro in the beginning...and boom. Now the Elements is a four part suite. "We added a third element. Now its a rock opera" as Brian said.

I also agree lyrics are a lost cause--if they had em, they wouldve used em. What we dont have, they either dont remember (Look, IIGS) or probably never existed (CIFOTM). I think a lot of songs like Worms wouldve been more lyrically intricate instead of the simple droning verses we got, but Brian almost certainly doesnt remember all those complex harmonies. The only thing he seemed to remember of Surfs Up was "there were some strings." And really, had he remembered, or cared enough to do, he wouldve done so in '71.

I do think, however, thered be something gleamed from playing the more obscure stuff. What I wanna know, is how much did Darian play back to Brian? Just the main tracks? And Just in one order he thought was good? Thats sort of the impression I get. Like the famous anecdote where he played Look after Wonderful and Brian said "Yeah, thats how we'll do it!" But what if he played Surfs Up after Wonderful instead--or what if he never played Look because it presumably didnt make the cut? Would Brian have said "Now wait a minute, we need to have Look in there somewhere" or even "No Darian, its not CIFOTM. Look comes after Wonderful" I doubt it, but its possible. Im not one of those "BWPS is Darian's fanmix" people, but its said he did play Brian the songs in an order he liked to see what Brian thought. How much did Brian change, and would he have gone along with something really different had Darian played things in a different order? Did Darian play more obscure stuff like Talking Horns, the Rock With Me Henry version of Wonderful, and...of course...the Psychedelic Sounds? If he did, I guess thats that. But if not, maybe its just wishful thinking, but I have to wonder...would Brian have had any revelations? "Oh yeah, we wanted scary wailing horns like that for the fade"/"Ah yeah...that reminds me, we need to add this bridge to Wonderful--Ill teach it to you"/"I remember now...that Breathing skit was supposed to play with a piano in the background for Air"/"Oh yeah, that argument with Hal was meant to play after Veggies and end Side 1" It really makes you wonder... Anyway, if there are any secrets left, I think THATS where its gonna come from. Asking about the sequence or something obvious like that is silly--that wouldve been the very first thing Darian asked, and theyve been asked that a hundred times. Same with lyrics and other things. The real meat is in the obscure pieces of music most people dismiss as unimportant--especially Psychedelic Sounds, which even most uber-fans here dont seem to give a sh*t about, and I doubt Darian even bothered to play for Brian. 

[shangaijoeBB]

Anybody had time to listen to my mix yet? I want to know what you guys think of my versions of H&V, CFOTM and THE ELEMENTS!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYZAsDfmsKM&feature=youtu.be

Mujan, I completely agree with you on this:

I definitely think sequencing is a lost cause. There was no official sequence order, but I do strongly believe there were groupings--as in, they knew which sides each song would fit on. Just put all the bombastic Americana songs on one side (Heroes, Worms, CE, OMP, IIGS, Veggies) and the more somber, piano/harpsichord and horn heavy life tracks on the other.

Now, to know how each song would have received its final mix, it's the ultimate riddle. That's why iv'e stopped trying to figure out how Brian would have done it and instead focused on how, personally, I would liked this album to sound like. Similar to when you're reading a good novel and the interpreted images pops up in your mind. Artists have a tendency to change their minds all the time about their art. So hence, there could be no final 1967 SMiLE album produced by Brian Wilson, since he could not finish it back then. What we have, is the plan for a 12 tracks album release featuring two ''movements''. As for the arrangements of each of theses songs, it's up to anyone's guesses, really.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Anybody had time to listen to my mix yet? I want to know what you guys think of my versions of H&V, CFOTM and THE ELEMENTS!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYZAsDfmsKM&feature=youtu.be

Mujan, I completely agree with you on this:

I definitely think sequencing is a lost cause. There was no official sequence order, but I do strongly believe there were groupings--as in, they knew which sides each song would fit on. Just put all the bombastic Americana songs on one side (Heroes, Worms, CE, OMP, IIGS, Veggies) and the more somber, piano/harpsichord and horn heavy life tracks on the other.

Now, to know how each song would have received its final mix, it's the ultimate riddle. That's why iv'e stopped trying to figure out how Brian would have done it and instead focused on how, personally, I would liked this album to sound like. Similar to when you're reading a good novel and the interpreted images pops up in your mind. Artists have a tendency to change their minds all the time about their art. So hence, there could be no final 1967 SMiLE album produced by Brian Wilson, since he could not finish it back then. What we have, is the plan for a 12 tracks album release featuring two ''movements''. As for the arrangements of each of theses songs, it's up to anyone's guesses, really.

Indeed. I think it's weird how these people who so religiously follow Brian's "air is a piano" interview conveniently ignore his statements that SMiLE was originally a two movement cantata and that the third movement was a new addition. Nope, that particular (imo) crucial testimony--which is backed up be the physical evidence*--is ignored because it goes against their idea of what they want the album to be. Yet the same group will harass you with, again, forced interpretations of Vosse/Anderle if you dare use Workshop as Earth or don't use Wind Chimes as air. It's kinda funny when you look at it that way.

*I've said it before and I'll say it again: you've got 5 or so songs which are clearly Americana--almost everyone agrees with that. The one some people may have trouble accepting--Veggies--has the evidence in its spelling. Again, the star Vega of Lyra, an Eagle gripping a lyre. Everyone agrees the second suite of BWPS flows spectacularly. Unfortunately Look isn't on the tracklist. But you've still got Wind Chimes which has the same instrumentation--pianos and horns--as the remaining three. The Elements was also about life and being healthy according to Anderle whom so many of you are so sure is 100% correct about everything (especially when it suits you) so that could very easily fit on this life/childhood side without sounding out of place, which was my main concern before with it. GV is more of a stretch but it's a happy relationship to contrast Wonderful--maybe it's even the same story but from the guys POV. It's a theory which I know a lot are skeptical of, but similarly to the Elements question, I think it's a matter of just taking a fresh look at the music itself. Especially with side 2, why are so many songs about similar themes also arranged similarly and (except GV) in that same somber, slightly melancholy tone. To me, this just makes so much more sense than an Element side with completely different tones and songs on it that it's crazy why anyone would argue otherwise. And we have two separate interviews from Brian himself confirming it. So I don't even know why it's still a debate.

Not saying everyone has to or should structure their SMiLE like that...But I don't understand how the Element side crowd can claim historical accuracy while doing something both the physical evidence AND interviews flatly contradict.

[Phoenix]

Indeed. I think it's weird how these people who so religiously follow Brian's "air is a piano" interview conveniently ignore his statements that SMiLE was originally a two movement cantata and that the third movement was a new addition

I'm not being obtuse. I honestly don't see what one has to do with the other. As you know, I completely agree the "third movement" (or in fact, any multi-song "movement") was a myth*. However, I also believe that when Brian said "Air was a piano cut", he wasn't putting us on and was stating that particular section of (the song, entitled) "The Elements" was intended to be represented by a particular recording they'd done involving piano(s), entirely or predominately, based on Vosse's description, that it was in fact, the tag from "Wind Chimes".  How does the WC tag "prove the existence" that Smile was always supposed to be three movements?  I'm serious. I see no correlation between the two ideas.

And as I told you last night (I'm just going on record publicly here, not meaning to specifically repeat myself to you), I think the WC tag could very well have been the Air portion of "The Elements" AND the tag to "Wind Chimes", just as "Bicycle Rider" is part of both HV and "...Worms" and the "Child chorus" returns in the tag to "Surf's Up". The album has numerous examples of recurring themes and I think it's a good change the WC tag could very well be one more.


* Rather than two movements, one per side, I think Smile included a handful of different themes, each spread through several songs; with some songs possibly fitting into more than just one particular theme.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Indeed. I think it's weird how these people who so religiously follow Brian's "air is a piano" interview conveniently ignore his statements that SMiLE was originally a two movement cantata and that the third movement was a new addition

I'm not being obtuse. I honestly don't see what one has to do with the other. As you know, I completely agree the "third movement" (or in fact, any multi-song "movement") was a myth*. However, I also believe that when Brian said "Air was a piano cut", he wasn't putting us on and was stating that particular section of (the song, entitled) "The Elements" was intended to be represented by a particular recording they'd done involving piano(s), entirely or predominately, based on Vosse's description, that it was in fact, the tag from "Wind Chimes".  How does the WC tag "prove the existence" that Smile was always supposed to be three movements?  I'm serious. I see no correlation between the two ideas.

And as I told you last night (I'm just going on record publicly here, not meaning to specifically repeat myself to you), I think the WC tag could very well have been the Air portion of "The Elements" AND the tag to "Wind Chimes", just as "Bicycle Rider" is part of both HV and "...Worms" and the "Child chorus" returns in the tag to "Surf's Up". The album has numerous examples of recurring themes and I think it's a good change the WC tag could very well be one more.


* Rather than two movements, one per side, I think Smile included a handful of different themes, each spread through several songs; with some songs possibly fitting into more than just one particular theme.

Trust me, I wasnt referring to you with that post.

[Phoenix]

Whoops.  Apologies, then.

As you were. 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL35350BBCE486D776

Danny Hutton interviews on Brian Wilson. Thought Id talk a little about these since Guitarfool brought him up as another good source to check out. This series isnt on the same level as the big 3 articles because its less indepth and far after the events had taken place. But still worth acknowledging.

Some takeaway points (just focusing on SMiLE/Smiley):

1-Brian never discussed his plan for SMiLE. Brian wouldnt articulate his plans, just sit at the piano, go off into his own world and create

2-Brian was too buried in the material post GV, in that modular phase, hearing little snippets over and over to take an objective outside "this obviously sounds better here" kinda mentality, according to Hutton. He was too absorbed in the possibilities and listening to the same small pieces over and over again to really take a firm hand and decide on a structure.

3-He was feeling outside pressure from the band about making things simpler to play live

4-He never really thought of certain projects as separate. Like "ok, Im gonna write these 12 songs for this album" then maybe take a break "ok, and now this album" he just kept writing continuously and when it was time to release something he'd take the best songs he was working on since the last release. This kinda makes sense then, with people who say Here Today (the last recorded Pet Sounds song) sounds a lot like some SMiLE material and how GV almost wound up on Pet Sounds--and conceptually/thematically it would make more sense there too, than it does on SMiLE.

5-He thinks SMiLE collapsed due to lack of confidence from Brian, outside pressures, being confused how to put it all together, frustration because the time had passed as Strawberry Fields and especially Sgt Pepper came out

6-Brian painted his house purple (as opposed to pink according to Vosse)

7-The home studio removed Brian's discipline.

8-He says he heard all the songs in parts, never as completed songs. He says something music lost something with 4-track, 8-track, etc. The idea of a recording being a time capsule of a certain performance was lost, and he talks about SMiLE taking that to the extreme. How it was still great, still beautiful, but the modular concept "didnt put you in a place" anymore.

9-Brian wanted to produce Three Dog Night (Redwood) so he could expand into Blues and other things he couldnt do with the Beach Boys. He wanted to try out new styles, a new dynamic, etc. Mike was pissed Brian wrote Darlin for them, giving a hit to another band, that kinda idea. Danny doesnt blame Mike at all for thinking that way, and understands his thought process, but says he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way with that attitude.

10-"Brian was not adversarial, hed just hide/Dennis was very protective of Brian/Carl was the referee/Mike was just always pushing, always trying to be the alpha male" Brian wanted to change, Danny speculates thats why Smiley's production was credited to The Beach Boys--to wean them into being more self-assured without him so he could do his own thing.

So there you go. Another perspective.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Double post, but perhaps this applies here too:

Something maybe worth bringing up, a Bruce Johnston interview series by the same team that did the Danny Hutton interviews Ive linked to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on9hWPf_bA8&list=PL42412455481D7DB6&index=14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HAdZXeWeq4&index=15&list=PL42412455481D7DB6

Some takeaway points:

1-Bruce doesnt think Sloop John B really fit on Pet Sounds, which I found surprising

2-He doesnt think the band hurt SMiLE and challenges you to listen to the tapes "the band worked hard to make this happen" and defends Mike. Perhaps expected coming from him especially but worth noting

3-Says Brian was very tense and not the same man during SMiLE. He speculates that the high stakes after the wild success of GV made him nervous

4-Loves Smiley, calls it a cool album, but laments the loss of SMiLE. Says GV doesnt fit on Smiley--at different times says if GV had been on Pet Sounds it wouldve been better than Sgt Pepper, but then that GV was better without a home, and shouldve been a standalone single.

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

And since I recently read it as well, I decided to do another dissection, this time on Teen Set's SMiLE ad from April 1967

1-The implication seems to be that the Workshop sounds are merely background noise for one of the SMiLE tracks. I realize Workshop has musical accompaniment to it, but the speculative part of me cannot help but wonder if perhaps they might have been used for something else. I know Im probably overthinking it, or wanting to believe something that isnt so, but...Ive just always thought the Workshop sounds would work better somewhere else--the music used with them kinda sucks IMHO and I always thought theyd work well with Wonderful at the end as the girl rebuilding herself or somewhere else. You know what? Even if they werent an element, I do think theyd sound best after Fire. I dont care what anyone say--The Elements is unfinished anyway...why the hell not?

2-The description of the piano piece and how it was made really gets me thinking. I believe perhaps its possible that a lot of the more off the wall ideas like perhaps Talking Horns' various sections and other more obscure SMiLE pieces might have been ideas he didnt know how was going to work...and couldnt get it work. That piano idea seems to have been kinda spur of the moment and could just as easily have turned out not so great. I know the point of the anecdote is Brian's genius that he could in fact make it work. But even geniuses dont always get it right. So perhaps that could be what happened with The Wonderful Insert and other things.

3-OMP. So this implies the past tense Only Sunshine came in November just one night before the track was officially recorded. So was this the same incident described in Fusion where he transitioned into Barnyard? If thats so, then was Barnyard in fact an early casualty for the sake of Heroes and Villains--perhaps the first? The quote about him always working on a whim certainly explains why the songs changed so much, and in a scenario like that I think its wisest to stick with whats on tape, again physical evidence, when piecing together an attempted historical cut. And looking at the sessions for OMP according to TSS, it looks like they were done 11/14 and later in February. The Humble Harv demo if Im not mistaken, was done 11/4 with Barnyard as part of H&V, and according to TSS Barnyard was done 10/20. If any of these are wrong, please correct me. So is it actually possible Barnyard was a reverse scenario where H&V lost something to another song? Like so much else, Its impossible to say. And we also know Sunshine itself, possibly sans OMP (I believe it was without it) was in Heroes too at one point. Well, Im still going by whats on tape. I believe had Barnyard been intended to be included there would be a test edit made up. It wouldve been SO EASY to do, and according to some of you thats all it would take to finish OMP/Barnyard suite as a track. Plus, again unless Im wrong, Barnyard fades. So how would it be part of OMP--which had a fade recorded after Barnyard was made? It just doesnt add up. I think for whatever reason Brian wanted to fit a past tense Sunshine in there somewhere and possibly VDP talked him into doing a duet of covers, and stuck OMP up front to get the more compelling "losing faith" idea across. VDP did something similar in Song Cycle, he did a cover with water sounds and apparently its meant to be representative of the last song played on the Titanic. It sounds plausible to me. I just think had Barnyard been meant to be on OMP, either it wouldnt fade, or OMP wouldnt have had a fade recorded, or Barnyard wouldve been rerecorded so it didnt fade. While its possible Brian changed his mind too, I just think 10 days is a big leap to give up what was hyped up on the radio as a major section as well. I think its more likely H&V was a conglomeration of Western themed ideas at this time, and as it went on it was decided Barnyard and IIGS didnt really fit the narrative of the song that was forming, so they spun off into a new track...called IIGS. Possibly...POSSIBLY with Workshop and IWBA as other sections meant to be this "Barnyard suite" a counterpoint to the Elements suite on Side 2. Anyones free to disagree but I find this a lot more likely. And again...Im sorry but...OMP/YAMS has nothing to do with a Barnyard. IIGS and Workshop (not so much IWBA tho) do.

4-Its great to see the Taxi Cabber skit mentioned here. I concede it does sound like Brian is talking about using this guy in a "humor record" that sounds different from SMiLE. With the dinner table concert he says "Im putting this on the album" with this its "a humor record." Could still be SMiLE, but also could not, especially since he says "possibly a radio show." Im wondering now if perhaps spoken word humor wasnt part of the album's original plan thru '66 until Dec or maybe early '67, with that interview and the Cantina Edit, and humor gradually became more and more prominent to the concept until we got to Smiley. I think thats very probable. I think his complaint about pretense and defensiveness in humor could possibly be a dig at VDP. Maybe some of VDP's lyrics and/or contributions to humor skits werent liked by Brian. Maybe he was looking for someone funny and was slowly realizing VDP wasnt it, and that played a small part in their growing divide and split. This is speculation but it could be.

5-OH MY GOD. FINALLY. We have a description of the water sounds he recorded during PS. Hes quoted specifically saying hed have the Boys try something similar when they got back. This unofficial session is described as trying to recreate the feeling of water. Honestly, this is case closed as far as Im concerned. Undersea Chant is the early Water Chant, and therefore the early Water. And this in turn suggests--tho admittedly doesnt definitively prove--that Brian couldve done the same with Breathing. Not to fan the flames and call you out again Sonic, but you said before you thought Breathing was perhaps meant to be the sounds of a gym. I think youre right, actually. And Id like to say this could also tie in to Anderle saying the Elements were meant to convey fitness as well. Back to water tho, I also find it telling that where Brian scaled back Fire from an inferno to a candle, this early water is described as Atlantis. Water Chant is beautiful, but Atlantis its not. I think its possible this was intentionally scaled down too, from a busy Ocean floor scenery to a more simple, laid back pool. I know Im outvoted but I couldnt be more certain of Breathing and Undersea Chant as early versions of Elements after reading this and Anderle.

6-Im writing this as I go, and what do you know? Talking Horns specifically comes up. And its presented as another successful last minute experiment, although its possible the droning and wailing sounds were not--but either way, whatever. Its possible they were a success too and Brian just never got around to mixing them into SU, and either forgot or changed his mind by '71. Or those parts were meant for something else, tho I have no idea what, and again it was a SU session so...

7-I knew Brian was into health during this time but this is the first Ive ever heard of it as part of spiritual enlightenment. So thats really cool, and helps me understand why this--and the elements which are apparently about health too--fit with all the other themes going on here.

8-Oh what do you know...AGAIN. Brian is described as listening to Heroes and Villains...and the BARNYARD SECTION comes on. I know it was published in April, but when was this written exactly? Presumably after OMP was recorded in November. CASE FUC|<ING CLOSED. Boom. Here's how I describe the Vosse Fusion anecdote then. That was early on when both Barnyard and Only Sunshine were still part of H&V. So they were supposed to go into one another somehow, I believe it's described as Barnyard into Sunshine, and thats what Vosse heard and recalled. But Vosse himself never says "Thats how they were supposed to be, one song" or "That wouldve been the OMP track" or ANYTHING. He's just recalling a cool thing he heard early in the sessions, but by the time OMP was recorded in November as a standalone that changed. Seriously, I consider this irritating theory put to bed. Call zozobird someone 

9-Id LOVE to see the film he describes about the chicken with tennis shoes. Couldve been a cool counterpoint to the Fire video.

TL;DR:WOW. I cannot believe I didnt read this sooner, and that it wasnt as highly regarded as the others. For such a short little puff piece I actually learned a lot. It feels like it was written specifically for me, by mentioning the Psych Sounds skits, Talking Horns and other stuff Ive been focusing on lately. I have to admit, this makes me question Taxi Cabber being on SMiLE, although personally I still think it works great in it. It further casts doubt on the "WC piano is air" because if it was, with everything else he got right I think Vosse would know. With how he goes on discussing the Water chants as an Atlantis and stuff, Id expect him to use similarly descriptive details with this piano if it were air. Id expect between this, Anderle and Fusion that at one point someone would say WC PIANO IS AIR in no uncertain terms if that were the case. I suppose there may still be a shred of doubt (Im sure someone will point to the Fire extinguisher and say "look! elements!") but I think you guys are reaching. Hard. Speaking of Water, I think the inclusion of those chants here and the very atmospheric descriptions of the Atlantis and everything really proves that this was a rough attempt at Water. It also all but proves this became the Water Chant. This lends further evidence to Breathing as Air, especially with Sonic's description of it as gym noises and Anderle's emphasis on health in the elements. Finally, and most happily, I think this proves once and for all there's no validity to OMP and Barnyard being one track. But what do I know, Im a troll

[Micha]

Wow. That section goes back that far. Interesting. Since Mark followed Brian's '66 rough mix for the first box, do we know if Brian ever made a contemporary mix of "Wind Chimes" with that section also included or was the decision to include it more of a 2004 idea?

I would say that ending tag remake from 10/5/66 was dropped and the original "chorus reprises" from 8/3/66 were reinstated in 2004 to  make an exciting performance. 

And a good decision too! I remember how disappointed I was with the 1993 version, like, that's... it? I would have replaced the piano tinkering of the 8/3/66 version with excerpts from the so-called "tag" for the finished version, though. In fact I did for my own pleasure.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Hi Mujan, appreciate these thoughts - one of the reasons I put together an extensive collection of quotes for another thread was so a clear summary of what was said, and in some sort of context, was available for quotation when discussing these matters. More to the point, that clear attribution - in relation to these articles - could be made when discussing particular recordings. This said:

The description of the piano piece and how it was made really gets me thinking. I believe perhaps its possible that a lot of the more off the wall ideas like perhaps Talking Horns' various sections and other more obscure SMiLE pieces might have been ideas he didnt know how was going to work...and couldnt get it work.

The 'piano piece' you refer to is clearly the tag to 'Wind Chimes', described by Vosse (twice) as follows:

‘But at the same time [Brian made the Fire recording], he took the tail end of "Wind Chimes" - which the way it was originally recorded was, again much more beautiful than on Smiley Smile - and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano; and, a track at a time, did little music-box overdubs; and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into ... I've never heard anything like it… He was doing everything: he had an engineer there just to punch the tape thing, but he'd go in and mix in between. This was mainly done in Western Three, rather than Gold Star Studios which he used for a few things.
[Fusion, 1969]

‘It is a balmy afternoon in Hollywood. Brian Wilson comes into Studio 3 at Western Recorders for an overdubbing session. In the booth his personal 8-track tape machine is ready to roll. In the studio an old, upright honky-tonk piano and Brian's beautiful black grand piano wait under the microphones. "I have an idea, I'm not sure exactly how this is going to work, but we'll try it." Brian goes to his piano and signals Chuck, the engineer, to roll the tape. He plays a simple music box melody. The tape is run back. On a second track he adds some tinkles on the honky-tonk piano. For about half an hour Wilson goes over the same piece, filling the eight tracks with counterpoints, syncopated gates and notions. "OK, let's hear it." Wilson in the control room, standing close to the center speaker, listens to the playback. He rushes to the board and supervises the throwing of switches and turning of knobs — more echo on the third track, a touch of reverb on the second honky-tonk overdub, this track dry and the other with more highs. Something happens to the sounds; they change, they move around and are transformed into a work of sheer beauty. Everyone in the booth has seen and heard the entire process.’
[Teen Set, Jan ‘67]

And the 'Talking Horns' established as an off-the-cuff idea at a Surf's Up session:

'‘It is another night at Goldstar. A group of older musicians whom Brian has never met are there to perform on French horns. Five minutes after producer meets players, the men are creating laughing effects and having conversation with their horns. "It was just an idea I had, and I'm happy to see it works." How does he do it? Somebody standing in the hallway asks.'"
[Teen Set, Jan ‘67 - describing the ‘Surf’s Up: Talking Horns’ session of Nov 7th, also known as ‘George Fell Into His French Horn’.)

My point here is not that these weren't off-the-cuff experiments that didn't necessarily go anywhere - as you posit - but that they are not random, 'obscure SMiLE pieces', but unused or abandoned mixes of parts of known song sections - in this case, specifically, the horn parts in the 'First Movement' of Surf's Up and a possibly unheard mix of the 'Wind Chimes' tag.

OMP. So this implies the past tense Only Sunshine came in November just one night before the track was officially recorded. So was this the same incident described in Fusion where he transitioned into Barnyard? If thats so, then was Barnyard in fact an early casualty for the sake of Heroes and Villains--perhaps the first? The quote about him always working on a whim certainly explains why the songs changed so much, and in a scenario like that I think its wisest to stick with whats on tape, again physical evidence, when piecing together an attempted historical cut. And looking at the sessions for OMP according to TSS, it looks like they were done 11/14 and later in February. The Humble Harv demo if Im not mistaken, was done 11/4 with Barnyard as part of H&V, and according to TSS Barnyard was done 10/20. If any of these are wrong, please correct me. So is it actually possible Barnyard was a reverse scenario where H&V lost something to another song? Like so much else, Its impossible to say. And we also know Sunshine itself, possibly sans OMP (I believe it was without it) was in Heroes too at one point. Well, Im still going by whats on tape. I believe had Barnyard been intended to be included there would be a test edit made up. It wouldve been SO EASY to do, and according to some of you thats all it would take to finish OMP/Barnyard suite as a track. Plus, again unless Im wrong, Barnyard fades. So how would it be part of OMP--which had a fade recorded after Barnyard was made? It just doesnt add up. I think for whatever reason Brian wanted to fit a past tense Sunshine in there somewhere and possibly VDP talked him into doing a duet of covers, and stuck OMP up front to get the more compelling "losing faith" idea across. VDP did something similar in Song Cycle, he did a cover with water sounds and apparently its meant to be representative of the last song played on the Titanic. It sounds plausible to me. I just think had Barnyard been meant to be on OMP, either it wouldnt fade, or OMP wouldnt have had a fade recorded, or Barnyard wouldve been rerecorded so it didnt fade. While its possible Brian changed his mind too, I just think 10 days is a big leap to give up what was hyped up on the radio as a major section as well. I think its more likely H&V was a conglomeration of Western themed ideas at this time, and as it went on it was decided Barnyard and IIGS didnt really fit the narrative of the song that was forming, so they spun off into a new track...called IIGS. Possibly...POSSIBLY with Workshop and IWBA as other sections meant to be this "Barnyard suite" a counterpoint to the Elements suite on Side 2. Anyones free to disagree but I find this a lot more likely. And again...Im sorry but...OMP/YAMS has nothing to do with a Barnyard. IIGS and Workshop (not so much IWBA tho) do.

Again, here are the relevant quotes (and dates, incidentally) from Vosse - not only from Teen Set, but Fusion too - from the other thread:

THE OLD MASTER PAINTER

'It is a crisp, clear November night, and from Brian Wilson's living room, high atop Beverly Hills, the city glistens in patterns of light. Wilson sits at his piano. Jules Siegel, Saturday Evening Post’s top music journalist, lies on the floor playing catch with Banana, the Wilson beagle. Banana is indefatigable. Siegel has been throwing the ball for twenty minutes. His arm is tired. Banana could go on all night.

Wilson turns to no one in particular and speaks. "'You Are My Sunshine' can happen another way. Listen." He plays a mournful series of chord patterns while singing a sad revision of the song "You were my sunshine, my only sunshine ..." The next night he is back at Goldstar and a studio full of cellos, strings, and percussion performing those same poignant chords. There is no sheet music. There hasn't been time for that. Brian is doing the arrangement on the spot. He prefers to work that way — like Fellini on the set with no script, scurrying about whispering snatches of dialogue into his players' ears.'
[Teen Set, Jan ‘67 - apparently describing the events of 13 and 14 November, 1966]

‘Vosse: And like I said, Brian loves Stephen Foster ... that kind of song. So one night we were over at his house and he started playing "You Are My Sunshine" by ... Who wrote that?
Interviewer: Jimmy Davis, ex-Gov. of Louisiana.
Vosse: I used to go to high school with his son. Well, Brian started playing it slowly—almost like an R&B thing— just slowing down the tempo: really mournful. And we were all a little high, I guess, that night ... and he started doing a "you were my sunshine" thing: he put the song in the past tune—and he was trying to find his bass rhythm for it: and in doing that he found this weird little riff that just sort of developed. And it hit him, man, right then that he wanted a barn yard—he wanted Old MacDonald's farm—he wanted all that stuff. So he immediately got Van Dyke over and they did a chart for "You were my sun shine," which ... It's so hard to remember exactly what he wound up doing because he changed things to much ... he wound up writing a clarinet part for it which is impossible to describe: a whole different sound that he found in the middle of all this ... and it developed into an instrumental thing with barnyard sounds—people sawing—he had people in the studio sawing on wood—and Van Dyke being a duck—and it was marvelous. It made you smile and at the same time touched you.’
[Fusion, 1969]

'"HERE WE GO!" The voice booms over the intercom system and the men spring into action. Saws chew up boards, nails are driven with hammers — the workshop is alive with sounds. In the control room at Goldstar Recording studios in Hollywood, Brian Wilson sits at the board chuckling. “Do you believe it!" He slams his hand down on the arm of the chair. They believe it.

Brian Wilson is cutting an album. He wants the sounds of a workshop for background on one of the tracks. David Oppenheim, Emmy award winning producer of CBS documentaries on Igor Stravinsky and Pablo Casals, sits watching and listening. He believes it. Moments later he is out in the studio, tools in hand, banging and sawing away with the veteran studio musicians.'
[Teen Set '67, describing the events of 29th November 1966]

The above are firsthand, published accounts of how a participant remembered the process of development. As it happens, I largely agree with your take on OMP/Barnyard/Workshop etc. But dressing up supposition as fact, like this:

And again...Im sorry but...OMP/YAMS has nothing to do with a Barnyard. IIGS and Workshop (not so much IWBA tho) do.

in the face of the extracts above really makes me wonder why I bothered in the first place. But let's proceed:

5-OH MY GOD. FINALLY. We have a description of the water sounds he recorded during PS. Hes quoted specifically saying hed have the Boys try something similar when they got back. This unofficial session is described as trying to recreate the feeling of water. Honestly, this is case closed as far as Im concerned. Undersea Chant is the early Water Chant, and therefore the early Water.

Again, one of the reasons I put together - over several hours, mind - what I did is so people would have no reasonable recourse not to quote sources correctly. Specific to the above:

Each person makes and repeats a sound which represents the “feeling" of underwater life to him

The '"feeling" of underwater life' (to that specific individual making the noise, what's more) being distinctly different from "the feeling of water". Unless you're arguing that Brian's attempt to emulate The Elements was, in this case, to empathize with the beings that live within that element, and not capture an aural sense of the element itself. Which you could, I suppose, argue - but you'd need to be willing to articulate it more clearly than above.

Hes quoted specifically saying hed have the Boys try something similar when they got back.

The crucial point here, surely, is that he didn't. The musical and, indeed, thematic connection between even the most atmospheric 'underwater' chanting on PS and the eventual harmonic 'Water Chant', recorded almost exactly a year later, is tenuous if not non-existent. You've been stretching that muscle for a while, Mujan. Your arm must be getting tired.

But then:

6-Im writing this as I go, and what do you know? Talking Horns specifically comes up. And its presented as another successful last minute experiment, although its possible the droning and wailing sounds were not--but either way, whatever. Its possible they were a success too and Brian just never got around to mixing them into SU, and either forgot or changed his mind by '71. Or those parts were meant for something else, tho I have no idea what, and again it was a SU session so...

An excellent and objective, I think, reading of the material.

8-Oh what do you know...AGAIN. Brian is described as listening to Heroes and Villains...and the BARNYARD SECTION comes on. I know it was published in April, but when was this written exactly? Presumably after OMP was recorded in November. CASE FUC|<ING CLOSED.

AGAIN, if you'd bothered to go refer to the listings I put up, you'd see that the Teen Set piece covers events from October to December 1966. Even if you didn't, a cursory reading of the article with reference to the TSS sessionography shows that events within the article occur out of chronological sequence. (And if you then explain that you don't have your copy of the TSS book to hand, I can direct you toward a useful collection of quotes including session dating, wherever possible, on another thread in this board.)

All this proves, therefore - and if we're taking the information within the 'Teen Set' article as fact - is that 'Barnyard' was at one point a part of 'Heroes and Villians'. The rest of your statement, AGAIN, is pure supposition.

To conclude with one more quotation - complete with dating and attribution - I am fairly confident you will bother to read and retain:

CASE FUC|<ING CLOSED.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard, posted Today]

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Dude...I appreciate what you did by posting all those quotes and everything...but is it really necessary to police people who dont extensively utilize them with every post?

[The_Holy_Bee]

No, 'policing' other peoples' use of historical data should not be necessary, or my responsibility, I agree. But since I spent hours formatting and annotating a ready resource (including full attribution and dating where possible) - on a thread of which you are aware, and indeed thanked me for establishing - which will allow you, and me, and other posters to quote accurately and responsibly the specific article, among others, upon which you 'dissertated' above ... then yes, I think I have the right to express my frustration that you've continued to populate this thread with largely selective, paraphrased references which - I suspect, not coincidentally - support your pre-existing positions on the SMiLE album.

EDIT: Are we done now with this now, Mujan? Do you recognize any truth in what I wrote above ? I hope so. If not, back to me not engaging with your posts, and continuing to enjoy some otherwise diverting and insightful threads.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

The 'piano piece' you refer to is clearly the tag to 'Wind Chimes', described by Vosse (twice) as follows:

Yes, I figured. Im just referring to it as it appears in the article.

‘But at the same time [Brian made the Fire recording], he took the tail end of "Wind Chimes" - which the way it was originally recorded was, again much more beautiful than on Smiley Smile - and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano; and, a track at a time, did little music-box overdubs; and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into ... I've never heard anything like it… He was doing everything: he had an engineer there just to punch the tape thing, but he'd go in and mix in between. This was mainly done in Western Three, rather than Gold Star Studios which he used for a few things.
[Fusion, 1969]

‘It is a balmy afternoon in Hollywood. Brian Wilson comes into Studio 3 at Western Recorders for an overdubbing session. In the booth his personal 8-track tape machine is ready to roll. In the studio an old, upright honky-tonk piano and Brian's beautiful black grand piano wait under the microphones. "I have an idea, I'm not sure exactly how this is going to work, but we'll try it." Brian goes to his piano and signals Chuck, the engineer, to roll the tape. He plays a simple music box melody. The tape is run back. On a second track he adds some tinkles on the honky-tonk piano. For about half an hour Wilson goes over the same piece, filling the eight tracks with counterpoints, syncopated gates and notions. "OK, let's hear it." Wilson in the control room, standing close to the center speaker, listens to the playback. He rushes to the board and supervises the throwing of switches and turning of knobs — more echo on the third track, a touch of reverb on the second honky-tonk overdub, this track dry and the other with more highs. Something happens to the sounds; they change, they move around and are transformed into a work of sheer beauty. Everyone in the booth has seen and heard the entire process.’
[Teen Set, Jan ‘67]

Again....I AM aware of that. Just referring to how it appears in the article

And the 'Talking Horns' established as an off-the-cuff idea at a Surf's Up session:

My point here is not that these weren't off-the-cuff experiments that didn't necessarily go anywhere - as you posit - but that they are not random, 'obscure SMiLE pieces', but unused or abandoned mixes of parts of known song sections - in this case, specifically, the horn parts in the 'First Movement' of Surf's Up and a possibly unheard mix of the 'Wind Chimes' tag.

No, again Im referring to them as the article makes them out to be. Theyre presented as on the spot ideas, so Im going along with that, responding to that, when I write up my reaction. Im aware that the idea of falling into instruments was done 3 nights after during Psychedelic Sounds, for example.

Again, here are the relevant quotes (and dates, incidentally) from Vosse - not only from Teen Set, but Fusion too - from the other thread:

The above are firsthand, published accounts of how a participant remembered the process of development. As it happens, I largely agree with your take on OMP/Barnyard/Workshop etc. But dressing up supposition as fact, like this:

I know. Ive read them. Im not sure why you feel the need to throw these in my face, especially since they dont contradict anything I said or speculated in my post. And do I really need to say "in my opinion" every time I post something? Is the guilt trip "Im not sure why I bothered" really necessary?

Again, one of the reasons I put together - over several hours, mind - what I did is so people would have no reasonable recourse not to quote sources correctly. Specific to the above:

Each person makes and repeats a sound which represents the “feeling" of underwater life to him

The '"feeling" of underwater life' (to that specific individual making the noise, what's more) being distinctly different from "the feeling of water". Unless you're arguing that Brian's attempt to emulate The Elements was, in this case, to empathize with the beings that live within that element, and not capture an aural sense of the element itself. Which you could, I suppose, argue - but you'd need to be willing to articulate it more clearly than above.

Cut me a break. Im assuming we all read them or are familiar. Do I really need to cite every single post I make now when its clear Ive read the articles in question--very recently--and at the end of the day this is a place I come to for fun AFTER writing cited essays all day at school?

Itd be one thing if I stated things that are undeniably, objectively untrue. But Im offering my conclusion on the subject based on what Ive read and listened to. Youre essentially disagreeing with my opinion and then self righteously throwing your quotes in my face saying "YOURE NOT INTERPRETING IT THE WAY I AM!" I mean seriously, the crux of your argument here is basically they make fish sounds so it cant be an element. And yet, what you and zozobird and others dont seem to grasp is that Im saying these were rough working ideas for the elements. So it stands to reason they wouldnt be perfect. And in any case, is it really that hard to fathom that making you feel like youre on the ocean floor by creating aquatic ambient sounds might be a way of expressing Water? You seem to have a really literal idea of the elements, my goodness. I guess Fire isnt really fire because it sounds like fire engine sirens. Unless you think automobiles are an element

Hes quoted specifically saying hed have the Boys try something similar when they got back.

The crucial point here, surely, is that he didn't. The musical and, indeed, thematic connection between even the most atmospheric 'underwater' chanting on PS and the eventual harmonic 'Water Chant', recorded almost exactly a year later, is tenuous if not non-existent. You've been stretching that muscle for a while, Mujan. Your arm must be getting tired.

Except he did. Its called the Water Chant. Took him awhile yes, but the two are absolutely similar. One is definitely a lot more melodic and refined but hey...thats why he redid it. Its not like there isnt a precedent of SMiLE material being on long hiatus like Workshop not coming out until Do It Again, or CIFOTM in Little Bird, or WC into Been Too Long. Really appreciate the snarkiness too. Cuz thats totally becoming.

6-Im writing this as I go, and what do you know? Talking Horns specifically comes up. And its presented as another successful last minute experiment, although its possible the droning and wailing sounds were not--but either way, whatever. Its possible they were a success too and Brian just never got around to mixing them into SU, and either forgot or changed his mind by '71. Or those parts were meant for something else, tho I have no idea what, and again it was a SU session so...

An excellent and objective, I think, reading of the material.

Gee, glad you approve.

8-Oh what do you know...AGAIN. Brian is described as listening to Heroes and Villains...and the BARNYARD SECTION comes on. I know it was published in April, but when was this written exactly? Presumably after OMP was recorded in November. CASE FUC|<ING CLOSED.

AGAIN, if you'd bothered to go refer to the listings I put up, you'd see that the Teen Set piece covers events from October to December 1966. Even if you didn't, a cursory reading of the article with reference to the TSS sessionography shows that events within the article occur out of sequence within the piece. (And if you then explain that you don't have your copy of the TSS book to hand, I can direct you toward a useful collection of quotes including session dating, wherever possible, on another thread in this board.)

Yes, so I noticed. I believe I referenced quite a few dates in Point #3, including the crucial February date for OMP in which the fade was finalized. Im sorry I didnt realize you posted the dates in which things were published in your post. Since I asked, and didnt presume to know, a nice little correction wouldve been appreciated, but apparently that comes with a healthy dose of self congratulations and condescension on your part. Maybe thats not your intent but it certainly comes off that way.

To conclude with one more quotation - complete with dating and attribution - I am fairly confident you will bother to read and retain:

CASE FUC|<ING CLOSED.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard, posted Today]
[/quote]

Nice.

Hey man, you know I appreciate what you did posting quotes and everything, and I went out of my way to praise you for it. But is this really what it was for--so you can self importantly shove it in anyone's face who gets anything wrong, or whom you ASSUME is wrong, or even interprets something in one of those quotes differently than you? Honestly if thats the case then yeah, maybe you shouldnt have bothered. I dont mind being corrected, but many of these instances here are differences of conclusions based on our interpretations of the articles which youre framing as though I didnt read them, and being needlessly pompous about it. There's definitely something to be said about providing easily accessed sources and encouraging people to use them and then there's...this. Certainly didnt take you long either.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

No, 'policing' other peoples' use of historical data should not be necessary, or my responsibility, I agree. But since I spent hours formatting and annotating a ready resource (including full attribution and dating where possible) - on a thread of which you are aware, and indeed thanked me for establishing - which will allow you, and me, and other posters to quote accurately and responsibly the specific article, among others, upon which you 'dissertated' above ... then yes, I think I have the right to express my frustration that you've continued to populate this thread with largely selective, paraphrased references which - I suspect, not coincidentally - support your pre-existing positions on the SMiLE album.

EDIT: Are we done now with this now, Mujan? Do you recognize any truth in what I wrote above ? I hope so. If not, back to me not engaging with your posts, and continuing to enjoy some otherwise diverting and insightful threads.

At the end of the day, I just read some articles and posted my thoughts on them. Wasnt aware I was doing anything wrong. Im not trying to hide things which disprove me since I tried to comment on all the major points raised in each piece. Since youre such an expert, go ahead and bring up something I left out which shatters any theory Ive raised. I'll wait. I believe I myself even posted links to every single article, video interview as well as fan article/speculation I have currently saved on this computer on your little thread, as well as the relevant links to each article as I responded to them. So your theory doesnt hold water when held up to the truth, not that thats stopped you before.

So, am I not allowed to interpret things differently, because thats what Im getting out of all this. You initially accused me of being a bully in this thread for not reading these threads yet, and said I was scared Id find something which proved me wrong. So I made a point of reading each one, and typing up my thoughts. Not even just those which applied to my ideas, but whatever I got out of them. Go read em. Yeah I go out of my way to point out when nothing within disproves what I said, and especially when they support it. Why wouldnt I? I was lead to believe I had no clue what I was talking about and reading these articles would show me how totally wrong I was. But actually...in many cases, they seemed to show me I was right on point. The only things people have against my idea about Psychedelic Sounds are their own preconceived theories. Which may turn out to be true, I concede. But its pretty hypocritical to accuse me of flexing that muscle, etc, when you and others are doing the same for WC fade or whatever. The only difference is, Im alone. So I at least feel the need to debate more vigorously, and its a lot easier for me to be pushed around; ignored, talked down to, challenged to read XYZ and not even taken seriously when I do, even accused of trolling.

Honestly, with your wording here, and your quick and needlessly crass reply above, I believe you tipped your hand with the actual purpose to that thread youre so keen to brag about. Personally, I thought there was room enough for people to be able to post their own reactions to articles like that as well as a totally objective reference thread for them. But it appears for you, the latter was an excuse to put down my own versions of the former. The two should be able to coexist in a message board without one used selectively to silence those you disagree with unless they knowingly post objectively false info--which I have not.

I was really hoping we could let our tiff from before go and start over. We seemed to be earlier, you were very nice and polite. But it seems like that was just being two-faced if this is what you really wanted to do. And its not like this is an isolated occurrence either since before you were perfectly happy to debate this, sent me PMs praising my passion for the subject, inventive mixes and all else, and then in public start accusing me of avoiding reading articles because I know Ill be proven wrong, calling me a bully, and now even when I do read them Im accusing of posting misleading info and you make a big show of slapping me down personally. Unless you also slap everybody down who doesnt know offhand exactly when every article was written--even when they admit so and ask--and interprets passages from them differently than you with this conceited bought of quotes, personal quips and references to your "hard work" then I think youre specifically targeting me. And if you DO in fact start treating everyone in this way, then this isnt the kind of stuffy priggish conversation Id like to take part in.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Deleted on grounds of futility.

[soniclovenoize]

Wow. That section goes back that far. Interesting. Since Mark followed Brian's '66 rough mix for the first box, do we know if Brian ever made a contemporary mix of "Wind Chimes" with that section also included or was the decision to include it more of a 2004 idea?

I would say that ending tag remake from 10/5/66 was dropped and the original "chorus reprises" from 8/3/66 were reinstated in 2004 to  make an exciting performance. 

And a good decision too! I remember how disappointed I was with the 1993 version, like, that's... it? I would have replaced the piano tinkering of the 8/3/66 version with excerpts from the so-called "tag" for the finished version, though. In fact I did for my own pleasure.

I like them both.  I thought the 1993 version was great, with Brian creating this huge juxtaposition with the loud, bombastic "chorus" section, that just abruptly cuts away to a quiet, minimal piano tinkering.  That, to me, was genius for 1966 pop music, even if the cost was an awkward end for a song. 

I had never heard the other "reprise" version until I got a bootleg of the SMiLE performances in 2003, and I was like "Oh neat!"  At the time I didn't know there was a recorded version of that! 

[jiggy22]

I'm not disagreeing with you. Hell, what do I know?

But it never made any sense to me. It's morning, the guy tumbles out of bed, fresh air all around his head, he's surrounded by agriculture, he's in great shape! And then, a second later, pieces of his broken heart are being put back together. OOOOKKKKK...

Don't get me wrong. That's what I honestly think Brian's plan was (once GS got spun out of HV). I never once said it made any sense either.  

My ONLY guess is the guy SAYS he's in great shape and the noise explosion is a breakdown(? break UP?), leaving him now in pieces.  Or the first part is his outward appearance, while INside...  Or who the Hell knows?    

For all we know, Brian heard IWBA one night and came up with the rebuilding joke and decided to include it on the album but, like the other fragments, thought it needed more, looked at the giant modular jigsaw puzzle with no directions in front of him and decided then and there that "Great Shape" was the Tab A to his IWBA joke's Slot B.  

Like I said, I'm 100% convinced that was his plan but I don't think it makes much more sense than you do.  

Or maybe he wanted those two pieces together because he just thought that they sounded good together? Possibly another case of Van Dyke's influence on Brian during this time, where sometimes the lyrics don't have to matter, sometimes the music is the only thing you need, the rest is all extra!

[The_Holy_Bee]

For all we know, Brian heard IWBA one night and came up with the rebuilding joke and decided to include it on the album but, like the other fragments, thought it needed more, looked at the giant modular jigsaw puzzle with no directions in front of him and decided then and there that "Great Shape" was the Tab A to his IWBA joke's Slot B. 

I like this idea.

[yonderhillside]

I posted this in the "Initial Structure" thread but thought I'd throw it in here too. I won't go into full details, considering I already did in other thread, but it's a 9 1/2 minute version of Heroes & Villains and contains Barnyard, IIGS, & OMP along with many other sections...

http://www60.zippyshare.com/v/aCCI5fXq/file.html

[Sheriff John Stone]

I posted this in the "Initial Structure" thread but thought I'd throw it in here too. I won't go into full details, considering I already did in other thread, but it's a 9 1/2 minute version of Heroes & Villains and contains Barnyard, IIGS, & OMP along with many other sections...

http://www60.zippyshare.com/v/aCCI5fXq/file.html

Thank you for posting that; I enjoyed it very much. No offense to your previous version, but this one is quite different, and I think you made some good choices. I like "kitchen sink" versions of Heroes And Villains, and yours fits the bill. Well done!

I am trying to get this thread back into the spirit that was originally intended - for the FUN of it. Would you like to share the entire sequencing of your mix?