Your SMiLE mix...for the fun of it

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Did anyone have an issue downloading his mix?  Chrome is blocking it, saying it may harm my computer.

Worked fine for me. Firefox, bro.

I must be doing something wrong because I still can't get it to play.  Would you mind telling me exactly what I need to do?   

It's hard to answer that because I could just download it no problem. Your browser settings or pc/antivirus settings may be a bit too strict so possibly look into those and tweak them as needed. You have a smartphone? Preferably Droid? Try downloading it off that. I did that just now to make sure it works and had no issue

[The Cincinnati Kid]

Did anyone have an issue downloading his mix?  Chrome is blocking it, saying it may harm my computer.

Worked fine for me. Firefox, bro.

I must be doing something wrong because I still can't get it to play.  Would you mind telling me exactly what I need to do?   

It's hard to answer that because I could just download it no problem. Your browser settings or pc/antivirus settings may be a bit too strict so possibly look into those and tweak them as needed. You have a smartphone? Preferably Droid? Try downloading it off that. I did that just now to make sure it works and had no issue

I should have been clearer. I was able to download it from Firefox, but it won't play on anything.  I guess because it's a .rar file?  Do I need to convert it and if so, how? 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Did anyone have an issue downloading his mix?  Chrome is blocking it, saying it may harm my computer.

Worked fine for me. Firefox, bro.

I must be doing something wrong because I still can't get it to play.  Would you mind telling me exactly what I need to do?   

It's hard to answer that because I could just download it no problem. Your browser settings or pc/antivirus settings may be a bit too strict so possibly look into those and tweak them as needed. You have a smartphone? Preferably Droid? Try downloading it off that. I did that just now to make sure it works and had no issue

I should have been clearer. I was able to download it from Firefox, but it won't play on anything.  I guess because it's a .rar file?  Do I need to convert it and if so, how? 

Download winrar or 7zip to "unlock" the files.

[doinnothin]

Bunch of stray thoughts, probably too many:

1) It's very odd to me that no vintage edits/mixes exist of Heroes & Villains that incorporate anything from the 1/03 session. I feel like there has to be an acetate out there somewhere that is a version of HV assembled after that date but before 1/27, one which is unsatisfactory to Brian and pushes him to hold the 1/27 session from which the Cantina version seems to stem. I'm interested if anyone has a suggested assembly for what this would be? Great Shape is probably out for this version as it appears as it's own track on the December track list.

maybe something like: Verse/Bridge To Indians/Bicycle Rider(1/05)/Mission Pak/Verse(Some early version of children Were Raised?)/Do A Lot/Pickup To Third Verse/Verse/Tag to Part 1? I'm at loss for this version.

2) I'm surprised I don't see more about Love To Say Dada being linked with Child is Father of the Man. "All Day", "Love To Say Dada (Part 2)", and "Cool, Cool Water (Version 2)" all feature a section that sounds very similar to the CIFOTM chorus. "Cool, Cool Water (Version 2)" also moves from that into a section somewhat akin to what Chuck calls the "verse" of CIFOTM (Version 1). Plus there's the talk of Love to Say Dada being written about a baby.

3) The only piece that is at all "clearly" a side 2 piece of Heroes & Villains, is the Bicycle Rider-esque chorus from the single recorded 2/27 as it is marked that on the tape box, which makes it seem to me like the idea of a Part 1 & 2 of Heroes & Villains could have been a fun heroes part followed by a scary villains part. Totally conjecture, but it kind of makes sense. Throw in one of the versions of the Chimes "Intro"/Bag of Tricks/Organ Waltz "Intro" piece, maybe even as the verse section of Side Two (which while it might sound crazy when you listen to it as in instrumental, it's not hard to imagine Brian filling it up with a bunch of voices (think Cabin Essence chorus) and Van writing lyrics to the ascending and descending melody that would fit as a great counterpoint to Side 1's descending heroic verse.

4) Is the TSS version of Our Prayer on Disc 2 Track 2 really from the 10/04 session? Maybe I'm mishearing, but I swear I hear Mike saying "We should be doing Good Vibrations anyway" at 1:43, and yet Good Vibrations is released on 10/10 just 6 days later. Plus Brian says (in reference to the boys wanting to record Wonderful) that they don't have any studio time until "Thursday & Friday" which would be 10/6 and 10/7 if this was on 10/04. Indeed, on 10/6 there is a vocal session for Wonderful, though there's a tracking session for Windchimes (Version 2) on 10/5, but I'd guess that wasn't at Columbia, where he would have been doing vocals. I don't know how quick the turnaround was back then for releasing a single, but if they're not done working on Good Vibrations (possibly even recording the vocals) by 10/6, could they actually get it out that quickly? If anyone has the final mix date and/or the delivery date to Capitol for Good Vibrations, that would be helpful in figuring out this little bit.

5) He Gives Speeches, featuring the lyric "he fell into her friendly persuasion", is recorded the same day as the Good Vibrations "Persuasion" takes. Don't know which inspired the other, but I hadn't recognized that connection before. Very speculatory off of that, but it got me thinking about the takes under "Inspiration", which are under a new master number (the first change since recording for the single started in earnest), and it made me wonder if it was a reference to Wasn't Made For These Times, "Every time I get the inspiration to go change things around". Obviously it could also just be that he was inspired, but the connection between HGS & Persuasion got me thinking ...

6) 11/04/67 was a crazy day. Surf's Up 1st Movement is tracked, Brian plays the Heroes & Villains demo to Humble Harv, and the Psycodelic Sounds tape is recorded. Just wow. I mean that runs that gamut from one of the most sublime moments of Smile to some of its most joyous to some of its most ridiculous.

7) In regards to the Heroes & Villains chants recorded on 2/20: I think they get labelled as different sections or parts too often, when the slates during the sessions refer to them as revisions/versions.

TSS's Part 2 (Gee) is slated as "Part 2, Revised Version", but which Brian refers to simply as Part 2.
TSS's Part 2 Revised is slated as "Part 2, Heroes & Villains, Revised Version" but features the Bicycle Rider music.
TSS's Part 4 is slated (I think) as "Version 4, Part 2" as heard on the boot Archaeology [Lost Smile Sessions] Disc 1 track 28, you hear Chuck call out Version 4, Part 2, Take 2 before a clip of a rehearsal for the background dum dum dums.
I don't think we have a slate for Part 3 (Animals), though my guess is that it would be some variation on Part 2, Revision/Version 3.

It seems like Brian's recording candidates for replacing the old Part 2 (Cantina), and Chuck, knowing that they already have a Part 2 is calling it Revised Version. But in Brian's mind, he's done with Cantina, and sees this as a whole new Part 2 for the HV Side A single. He then tries various versions of that new Part 2 idea which leads to it eventually being called Part 2, Version 4.

So really, Part 2 (Gee) would be New Part 2, Version 1. Part 2 Revised would be New Part 2, Version 2, Part 3 (Animals) would be New Part 2, Version 3, and Part 4 would be New Part 2, Version 4. Unless of course it's for an actual Part 2 (Side B) of a two sided single.

[soniclovenoize]

Bunch of stray thoughts, probably too many:

1) It's very odd to me that no vintage edits/mixes exist of Heroes & Villains that incorporate anything from the 1/03 session. I feel like there has to be an acetate out there somewhere that is a version of HV assembled after that date but before 1/27, one which is unsatisfactory to Brian and pushes him to hold the 1/27 session from which the Cantina version seems to stem. I'm interested if anyone has a suggested assembly for what this would be? Great Shape is probably out for this version as it appears as it's own track on the December track list.

maybe something like: Verse/Bridge To Indians/Bicycle Rider(1/05)/Mission Pak/Verse(Some early version of children Were Raised?)/Do A Lot/Pickup To Third Verse/Verse/Tag to Part 1? I'm at loss for this version.

We have the "Verse Edit Experiment" from 1/27/67 that concludes with Bridge To Indians, with an EQ filter that sounds like an old transistor radio. 

7) In regards to the Heroes & Villains chants recorded on 2/20: I think they get labelled as different sections or parts too often, when the slates during the sessions refer to them as revisions/versions.

TSS's Part 2 (Gee) is slated as "Part 2, Revised Version", but which Brian refers to simply as Part 2.
TSS's Part 2 Revised is slated as "Part 2, Heroes & Villains, Revised Version" but features the Bicycle Rider music.
TSS's Part 4 is slated (I think) as "Version 4, Part 2" as heard on the boot Archaeology [Lost Smile Sessions] Disc 1 track 28, you hear Chuck call out Version 4, Part 2, Take 2 before a clip of a rehearsal for the background dum dum dums.
I don't think we have a slate for Part 3 (Animals), though my guess is that it would be some variation on Part 2, Revision/Version 3.

It seems like Brian's recording candidates for replacing the old Part 2 (Cantina), and Chuck, knowing that they already have a Part 2 is calling it Revised Version. But in Brian's mind, he's done with Cantina, and sees this as a whole new Part 2 for the HV Side A single. He then tries various versions of that new Part 2 idea which leads to it eventually being called Part 2, Version 4.

So really, Part 2 (Gee) would be New Part 2, Version 1. Part 2 Revised would be New Part 2, Version 2, Part 3 (Animals) would be New Part 2, Version 3, and Part 4 would be New Part 2, Version 4. Unless of course it's for an actual Part 2 (Side B) of a two sided single.

How I (and others) interpret it, Brian felt he had the whole song in the can on 2/10/67 as The Cantina Mix, so the rest of February was devoted to the b-side of the single-- Part 2 (not to be confused with the second part of Part 1).  That is until March 1st, where he scraps everything and starts a new Verse. 

So thus here we are differentiating between Heroes and Villains Part 2 (the second segment of Heroes and Villains, side A, which is Cantina) and Hereos and Villains Part 2 (the b-side of the single, which is Gee, P2 Revised, Animals, Anvil, Hold On, etc). 

But as to what you are saying with Gee, the very first take Brian labels "Heroes and Villains part 2", and proceeds to play the Gee piano part that keeps dissolving into a Gershwin-esque breakdown.  Then tracking Gee proper, it's slated as "Heroes and Villains Part 2, Revised Version"...  What was revised was the piano figure and eliminated the Gershwin breakdown.  Not the entirety of the Cantina section.

...In theory.   But how do we "know"? 

1) We have NO test edits of Verses -> Gee/P2 Revised, that would suggest that they are segments intended to replace Cantina, rather than a set of new recordings for a b-side.  (note we do have a handful of H&V test edits or demos already, so there is precedent)
2) In contrast we DO have a test edit of the Gee and it's variations (the one with the hard edit out of the diminished chord), unconnected to prior versions of H&V
3) For the claim that there is a six minute Heroes and Villains, we'd need to retain both the Cantina AND the Gee Variations and connect them together.

All circumstantial evidence of course, which is why this had been dismissed as myth a decade ago. 

[Sheriff John Stone]

Bunch of stray thoughts, probably too many:

1) It's very odd to me that no vintage edits/mixes exist of Heroes & Villains that incorporate anything from the 1/03 session. I feel like there has to be an acetate out there somewhere that is a version of HV assembled after that date but before 1/27, one which is unsatisfactory to Brian and pushes him to hold the 1/27 session from which the Cantina version seems to stem. I'm interested if anyone has a suggested assembly for what this would be? Great Shape is probably out for this version as it appears as it's own track on the December track list.

maybe something like: Verse/Bridge To Indians/Bicycle Rider(1/05)/Mission Pak/Verse(Some early version of children Were Raised?)/Do A Lot/Pickup To Third Verse/Verse/Tag to Part 1? I'm at loss for this version.

2) I'm surprised I don't see more about Love To Say Dada being linked with Child is Father of the Man. "All Day", "Love To Say Dada (Part 2)", and "Cool, Cool Water (Version 2)" all feature a section that sounds very similar to the CIFOTM chorus. "Cool, Cool Water (Version 2)" also moves from that into a section somewhat akin to what Chuck calls the "verse" of CIFOTM (Version 1). Plus there's the talk of Love to Say Dada being written about a baby.

3) The only piece that is at all "clearly" a side 2 piece of Heroes & Villains, is the Bicycle Rider-esque chorus from the single recorded 2/27 as it is marked that on the tape box, which makes it seem to me like the idea of a Part 1 & 2 of Heroes & Villains could have been a fun heroes part followed by a scary villains part. Totally conjecture, but it kind of makes sense. Throw in one of the versions of the Chimes "Intro"/Bag of Tricks/Organ Waltz "Intro" piece, maybe even as the verse section of Side Two (which while it might sound crazy when you listen to it as in instrumental, it's not hard to imagine Brian filling it up with a bunch of voices (think Cabin Essence chorus) and Van writing lyrics to the ascending and descending melody that would fit as a great counterpoint to Side 1's descending heroic verse.

4) Is the TSS version of Our Prayer on Disc 2 Track 2 really from the 10/04 session? Maybe I'm mishearing, but I swear I hear Mike saying "We should be doing Good Vibrations anyway" at 1:43, and yet Good Vibrations is released on 10/10 just 6 days later. Plus Brian says (in reference to the boys wanting to record Wonderful) that they don't have any studio time until "Thursday & Friday" which would be 10/6 and 10/7 if this was on 10/04. Indeed, on 10/6 there is a vocal session for Wonderful, though there's a tracking session for Windchimes (Version 2) on 10/5, but I'd guess that wasn't at Columbia, where he would have been doing vocals. I don't know how quick the turnaround was back then for releasing a single, but if they're not done working on Good Vibrations (possibly even recording the vocals) by 10/6, could they actually get it out that quickly? If anyone has the final mix date and/or the delivery date to Capitol for Good Vibrations, that would be helpful in figuring out this little bit.

5) He Gives Speeches, featuring the lyric "he fell into her friendly persuasion", is recorded the same day as the Good Vibrations "Persuasion" takes. Don't know which inspired the other, but I hadn't recognized that connection before. Very speculatory off of that, but it got me thinking about the takes under "Inspiration", which are under a new master number (the first change since recording for the single started in earnest), and it made me wonder if it was a reference to Wasn't Made For These Times, "Every time I get the inspiration to go change things around". Obviously it could also just be that he was inspired, but the connection between HGS & Persuasion got me thinking ...

6) 11/04/67 was a crazy day. Surf's Up 1st Movement is tracked, Brian plays the Heroes & Villains demo to Humble Harv, and the Psycodelic Sounds tape is recorded. Just wow. I mean that runs that gamut from one of the most sublime moments of Smile to some of its most joyous to some of its most ridiculous.

7) In regards to the Heroes & Villains chants recorded on 2/20: I think they get labelled as different sections or parts too often, when the slates during the sessions refer to them as revisions/versions.

TSS's Part 2 (Gee) is slated as "Part 2, Revised Version", but which Brian refers to simply as Part 2.
TSS's Part 2 Revised is slated as "Part 2, Heroes & Villains, Revised Version" but features the Bicycle Rider music.
TSS's Part 4 is slated (I think) as "Version 4, Part 2" as heard on the boot Archaeology [Lost Smile Sessions] Disc 1 track 28, you hear Chuck call out Version 4, Part 2, Take 2 before a clip of a rehearsal for the background dum dum dums.
I don't think we have a slate for Part 3 (Animals), though my guess is that it would be some variation on Part 2, Revision/Version 3.

It seems like Brian's recording candidates for replacing the old Part 2 (Cantina), and Chuck, knowing that they already have a Part 2 is calling it Revised Version. But in Brian's mind, he's done with Cantina, and sees this as a whole new Part 2 for the HV Side A single. He then tries various versions of that new Part 2 idea which leads to it eventually being called Part 2, Version 4.

So really, Part 2 (Gee) would be New Part 2, Version 1. Part 2 Revised would be New Part 2, Version 2, Part 3 (Animals) would be New Part 2, Version 3, and Part 4 would be New Part 2, Version 4. Unless of course it's for an actual Part 2 (Side B) of a two sided single.

Really nice post. Has your sequence/mix changed since March 2015? That was an interesting one.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Bunch of stray thoughts, probably too many:

1) It's very odd to me that no vintage edits/mixes exist of Heroes & Villains that incorporate anything from the 1/03 session. I feel like there has to be an acetate out there somewhere that is a version of HV assembled after that date but before 1/27, one which is unsatisfactory to Brian and pushes him to hold the 1/27 session from which the Cantina version seems to stem. I'm interested if anyone has a suggested assembly for what this would be? Great Shape is probably out for this version as it appears as it's own track on the December track list.

maybe something like: Verse/Bridge To Indians/Bicycle Rider(1/05)/Mission Pak/Verse(Some early version of children Were Raised?)/Do A Lot/Pickup To Third Verse/Verse/Tag to Part 1? I'm at loss for this version.

2) I'm surprised I don't see more about Love To Say Dada being linked with Child is Father of the Man. "All Day", "Love To Say Dada (Part 2)", and "Cool, Cool Water (Version 2)" all feature a section that sounds very similar to the CIFOTM chorus. "Cool, Cool Water (Version 2)" also moves from that into a section somewhat akin to what Chuck calls the "verse" of CIFOTM (Version 1). Plus there's the talk of Love to Say Dada being written about a baby.

3) The only piece that is at all "clearly" a side 2 piece of Heroes & Villains, is the Bicycle Rider-esque chorus from the single recorded 2/27 as it is marked that on the tape box, which makes it seem to me like the idea of a Part 1 & 2 of Heroes & Villains could have been a fun heroes part followed by a scary villains part. Totally conjecture, but it kind of makes sense. Throw in one of the versions of the Chimes "Intro"/Bag of Tricks/Organ Waltz "Intro" piece, maybe even as the verse section of Side Two (which while it might sound crazy when you listen to it as in instrumental, it's not hard to imagine Brian filling it up with a bunch of voices (think Cabin Essence chorus) and Van writing lyrics to the ascending and descending melody that would fit as a great counterpoint to Side 1's descending heroic verse.

4) Is the TSS version of Our Prayer on Disc 2 Track 2 really from the 10/04 session? Maybe I'm mishearing, but I swear I hear Mike saying "We should be doing Good Vibrations anyway" at 1:43, and yet Good Vibrations is released on 10/10 just 6 days later. Plus Brian says (in reference to the boys wanting to record Wonderful) that they don't have any studio time until "Thursday & Friday" which would be 10/6 and 10/7 if this was on 10/04. Indeed, on 10/6 there is a vocal session for Wonderful, though there's a tracking session for Windchimes (Version 2) on 10/5, but I'd guess that wasn't at Columbia, where he would have been doing vocals. I don't know how quick the turnaround was back then for releasing a single, but if they're not done working on Good Vibrations (possibly even recording the vocals) by 10/6, could they actually get it out that quickly? If anyone has the final mix date and/or the delivery date to Capitol for Good Vibrations, that would be helpful in figuring out this little bit.

5) He Gives Speeches, featuring the lyric "he fell into her friendly persuasion", is recorded the same day as the Good Vibrations "Persuasion" takes. Don't know which inspired the other, but I hadn't recognized that connection before. Very speculatory off of that, but it got me thinking about the takes under "Inspiration", which are under a new master number (the first change since recording for the single started in earnest), and it made me wonder if it was a reference to Wasn't Made For These Times, "Every time I get the inspiration to go change things around". Obviously it could also just be that he was inspired, but the connection between HGS & Persuasion got me thinking ...

6) 11/04/67 was a crazy day. Surf's Up 1st Movement is tracked, Brian plays the Heroes & Villains demo to Humble Harv, and the Psycodelic Sounds tape is recorded. Just wow. I mean that runs that gamut from one of the most sublime moments of Smile to some of its most joyous to some of its most ridiculous.

7) In regards to the Heroes & Villains chants recorded on 2/20: I think they get labelled as different sections or parts too often, when the slates during the sessions refer to them as revisions/versions.

TSS's Part 2 (Gee) is slated as "Part 2, Revised Version", but which Brian refers to simply as Part 2.
TSS's Part 2 Revised is slated as "Part 2, Heroes & Villains, Revised Version" but features the Bicycle Rider music.
TSS's Part 4 is slated (I think) as "Version 4, Part 2" as heard on the boot Archaeology [Lost Smile Sessions] Disc 1 track 28, you hear Chuck call out Version 4, Part 2, Take 2 before a clip of a rehearsal for the background dum dum dums.
I don't think we have a slate for Part 3 (Animals), though my guess is that it would be some variation on Part 2, Revision/Version 3.

It seems like Brian's recording candidates for replacing the old Part 2 (Cantina), and Chuck, knowing that they already have a Part 2 is calling it Revised Version. But in Brian's mind, he's done with Cantina, and sees this as a whole new Part 2 for the HV Side A single. He then tries various versions of that new Part 2 idea which leads to it eventually being called Part 2, Version 4.

So really, Part 2 (Gee) would be New Part 2, Version 1. Part 2 Revised would be New Part 2, Version 2, Part 3 (Animals) would be New Part 2, Version 3, and Part 4 would be New Part 2, Version 4. Unless of course it's for an actual Part 2 (Side B) of a two sided single.

No comment about your first point since I dont have TSS and the sessionography with me.

Regarding #2--Ive been saying it here and there. Im not sure what Dada was. I had always thought it started as All Day, but now it seems it started even earlier which throws a wrench in that idea. It MAY be possible that the Undersea Chant would have some music overlaid on top, and thats what it was. Theres that third section thats said to sound like CIFOTM, and I personally think the title, anecdote about the bottle, and wah-wah vocals are pretty solid evidence for a Life/Child song. So it could also be a last minute replacement for The Elements if that was definitely scrapped by late Dec--and therefore itd be on the Life side. But the problem is the instrumentation it eventually got wasnt fitting with those other songs. As Ive harped on oh so many times, WC/Wonderful/CIFOTM and SU all have pianos and horns which make up most of the arrangement of the song. Dada doesnt, and it ruins that connection if it was a late addition to that suite/side. Even when it was returned to later, it had FLUTES, not horns. And personally, I think when it was returned to in April it was so it could be a B-side for the new Veggies single.

3-You're not the first one to suggest a Heroes A side/Villains B side structure. I like the idea a lot, Im just not sure if its provable. I recall there is one session--Part Two Revised--where someone asks "is this villainous enough, Brian?" But that could mean there was supposed to be "villainous" parts in the A-side too. Its interesting to think there couldve been a whole other half of the song we'll never know of. And explain why Van leaving even so late in the game was such a critical blow. I never understood why it mattered after Dec since all the songs had lyrics--except possibly CIFOTM and IIGS. Elements didnt need them...so who cares if the lyricist quits, when his work is already 95% done? But with an all-important single still hanging in the balance it makes a bit more sense. It also makes sense then, to try another song with the same tone/feel as Heroes, but completed lyrics and an easier chorus to co-opt.

4-Mike said that? What a jerk I really cant answer. They mostly kept just the cheerier bits of the studio chatter, but in a heroes session (Do A Lot) too you hear Brian audibly annoyed saying "If theres no cooperation after this, Im splitting. We've gotta get back into the groove" definitely shows some of the snide remarks and overall frustration going on at the time. Sorry to go off topic, but I cant really answer this question.

5-Not sure about the Inspiration/Wasnt Made for These Times connection. I do think its interesting how hed take little pieces from seemingly complete songs to use in GV and then junked those songs. Look too. And how he did that with Heroes and all other songs. Again, its like he just didnt know when to stop in that case tho.

6-Haha, you're not a big fan of PS either I take it?  Eh, to each his own. A lot of it is pretty expendable but there are some real gems in there too, I think. Definitely a valuable piece of the puzzle if nothing else--even tho many wont admit it and look for excuses to ignore it. Anyway, I agree. A Big day, and further proof November was when the album was most complete in a sense. Sure, there was a lot more to do, but I agree with Vosse that around this time is where the album existed as a cohesive, conceptually finished entity before doubt, the singles, and VDP quitting ruined it and got everything all confused.

7-Well, that "a-Heroes, a-Heroes, a-Heroes and'a-Villains" part is listed as Part 2 Revised Master Take. But another chant (doot doot doot-Heroes and Villains!) is Part 3. The slower ("dooot dooot dooot Heeeroooes and Villaaaaaaains") chant is Part 4. Thats partly why I assumed Part 2 of the Single would be a series of chants, perhaps including Gee and accompanied by some of the more tangential pieces which dont really work in Part 1--Intro, All Day, etc.

Seriously tho, reading Point 7 of your post gave me a headache, lol. This is partly why I really dont care about creating the most accurate Heroes mix, or worrying how the single wouldve turned out, because its impossible. At least with the album, we have a period (Nov~Dec) we can point to where the album seems to have been more or less conceptually finalized. We have primary evidence we can look to, and the tracklist, to give us ideas how to put it together. Listening with our ears, its obvious a lot of songs share lyrics and musical similarities which seems to suggest they go together. Heroes itself? Nothing. Its a total crapshot. And if youre right and Side Two was gonna be a fully fleshed out "Villains Side" with new sections and lyrics, its a waste because that was never worked on then.

[Cam Mott]

Isn't that what I just said?  The Jan 5th Bicycle Rider overdub session was a Heroes session and was not marked "Heroes and Villains Side Two" as you asked, the single chorus session recorded Feb 27th was the one marked Side Two.

Ah, I misunderstood about which date. The Feb 27 H&V Part 2 #57045 is marked as "Heroes and Villains Side Two". The #57045 master is still the designated side 2 master. 

Also I believe the H&V Part 2 #57045 Side 2 master recordings from January 5 through March 2 all share a session number of 14247 and 14247-A through D, which means something that Brad Elliot once explained but I've forgotten.

I'd also point out the tracks shown for #57045 H&V Part 2 Side 2 master collectively include a beginning (Intro) and an end (fade) with the rest of the master #57045 tracks presumably a middle.  That side 2 middle could  have also included tracks previously designated for #57020 or other H&V master #s ala GV, or other album track bits, and miscellany, I suppose. 

I understand there is a lot of confusion on our part about Brian's intentions and methods and what-not but this still seems like a rare organizing principle regarding Side 2 of the H&V single whether we get it or not.  I just think there is too much evidence to dismiss #57045 as for the Side 2 master.

Some day, when they recover Bruce's acetate from the cornerstone of that building in Hawaii, all will be revealed to our Great Grand children SMiLE obsessives.

[Cam Mott]

The verse remake for H&V Part 2 ("Side 2") #57045, what key is Brian wanting to end up?  Has anyone made a file with the key/speed correction Brian is describing?

[soniclovenoize]

The verse remake for H&V Part 2 ("Side 2") #57045, what is key is Brian wanting to end up?  Has anyone made a file with the key/speed correction Brian is describing?

E major.  Which is bizarre because it's in Db. 

[Cam Mott]

The verse remake for H&V Part 2 ("Side 2") #57045, what is key is Brian wanting to end up?  Has anyone made a file with the key/speed correction Brian is describing?

E major.  Which is bizarre because it's in Db. 

Brian's ways are often bizarre to we earthlings aren't they?  Has anyone done the correction Brian describes to the master take on TSS?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Isn't that what I just said?  The Jan 5th Bicycle Rider overdub session was a Heroes session and was not marked "Heroes and Villains Side Two" as you asked, the single chorus session recorded Feb 27th was the one marked Side Two.

Ah, I misunderstood about which date. The Feb 27 H&V Part 2 #57045 is marked as "Heroes and Villains Side Two". The #57045 master is still the designated side 2 master. 

Also I believe the H&V Part 2 #57045 Side 2 master recordings from January 5 through March 2 all share a session number of 14247 and 14247-A through D, which means something that Brad Elliot once explained but I've forgotten.

I'd also point out the tracks shown for #57045 H&V Part 2 Side 2 master collectively include a beginning (Intro) and an end (fade) with the rest of the master #57045 tracks presumably a middle.  That side 2 middle could  have also included tracks previously designated for #57020 or other H&V master #s ala GV, or other album track bits, and miscellany, I suppose. 

I understand there is a lot of confusion on our part about Brian's intentions and methods and what-not but this still seems like a rare organizing principle regarding Side 2 of the H&V single whether we get it or not.  I just think there is too much evidence to dismiss #57045 as for the Side 2 master.

Some day, when they recover Bruce's acetate from the cornerstone of that building in Hawaii, all will be revealed to our Great Grand children SMiLE obsessives.

I really wanna know why that wasn't on TSS now. That's just completely inexcusable

[Cam Mott]

Now that I think about it the known sessions for H&V Part 2 ("Side 2") master #57045 consist of an "intro", chorus and new arrangement of the chorus, verses, and "fade out".  Interesting.

Somebody should ask Carol Kaye or Hal Blaine what they have noted for March 2 1967 in their personal session logs (if they haven't been already).

[Cam Mott]

7) In regards to the Heroes & Villains chants recorded on 2/20: I think they get labelled as different sections or parts too often, when the slates during the sessions refer to them as revisions/versions.

TSS's Part 2 (Gee) is slated as "Part 2, Revised Version", but which Brian refers to simply as Part 2.
TSS's Part 2 Revised is slated as "Part 2, Heroes & Villains, Revised Version" but features the Bicycle Rider music.
TSS's Part 4 is slated (I think) as "Version 4, Part 2" as heard on the boot Archaeology [Lost Smile Sessions] Disc 1 track 28, you hear Chuck call out Version 4, Part 2, Take 2 before a clip of a rehearsal for the background dum dum dums.
I don't think we have a slate for Part 3 (Animals), though my guess is that it would be some variation on Part 2, Revision/Version 3.

It seems like Brian's recording candidates for replacing the old Part 2 (Cantina), and Chuck, knowing that they already have a Part 2 is calling it Revised Version. But in Brian's mind, he's done with Cantina, and sees this as a whole new Part 2 for the HV Side A single. He then tries various versions of that new Part 2 idea which leads to it eventually being called Part 2, Version 4.

So really, Part 2 (Gee) would be New Part 2, Version 1. Part 2 Revised would be New Part 2, Version 2, Part 3 (Animals) would be New Part 2, Version 3, and Part 4 would be New Part 2, Version 4. Unless of course it's for an actual Part 2 (Side B) of a two sided single.

That's the way I see it too. Successive versions for H&V #57020's 2nd part, just as they are slated, not concurrent versions. At least at the time of their recording.  

#57020 was the catch-all of bits and pieces for H&V #57020 and #57045 was the catch-all for bits and pieces of new arrangements for H&V Part 2 ("Side 2") #57045. If I remember right the common session number #14247 shared by all of the H&V Part 2 ("Side 2") #57045 tracks shows they were all intended for a single master track. Something like that, is Brad Elliott here?  

Nothing is a 100% but this seems pretty straight forward to me. The idea that the master numbers in this case are a red herring seems like a red herring imo (according to the documentation and slates etc.).

PS. Is it just me or does the verse remake for H&V Part 2 ("Side 2") #57045 run awfully long?  I wonder if he intended something over that?

Just talking to myself now.  (whistling, rocking forwards and back with hands in pockets)

[soniclovenoize]

Now that I think about it the known sessions for H&V Part 2 ("Side 2") master #57045 consist of an "intro", chorus and new arrangement of the chorus, verses, and "fade out".  Interesting.

Somebody should ask Carol Kaye or Hal Blaine what they have noted for March 2 1967 in their personal session logs (if they haven't been already).

Sooooo.... Something that sounds like this?
http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/GsEfh80Z/file.html

[Cam Mott]

Now that I think about it the known sessions for H&V Part 2 ("Side 2") master #57045 consist of an "intro", chorus and new arrangement of the chorus, verses, and "fade out".  Interesting.

Somebody should ask Carol Kaye or Hal Blaine what they have noted for March 2 1967 in their personal session logs (if they haven't been already).

Sooooo.... Something that sounds like this?
http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/GsEfh80Z/file.html

Something like that with those bits probably/possibly. The January chorus might have been replaced by the February chorus maybe?

Plus some sort of insert from March 2 1967 would have been the intended bones it seems by the documentation and slates.

[soniclovenoize]

Well it's very strange that January Chorus is even included in that master number. 

But idk,. listening to those Master numbers assembled in logical order, doesn't sound like a Part 2 to me, it sounds like a complete rewrite of Part 1... 

[Cam Mott]

Well it's very strange that January Chorus is even included in that master number. 

But idk,. listening to those Master numbers assembled in logical order, doesn't sound like a Part 2 to me, it sounds like a complete rewrite of Part 1... 

I understand but the #57045 master is identified as Side 2 master and the master takes were intended for that master identified as for Side 2 which to me would rule it out as a side 1 restart. We don't really know if what would be a chorus in #57020 was still a chorus in #57045 or the #57020 verse was still a verse in #57045 Side 2, as far as I know only the intro and fade out are identified as to placement or even function within the #57045 master. We don't know how it was, we only have the indications of what was for what at the time of recording.

Anyway that's the way I see it.

 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I wanna bump this thread with a few random questions.

1-Was With Me Tonight worked on pre January or is it a random later addition in 67?

2-any theories on He Gives Speeches? Where it might've fit before it was junked?

3-Tones and IDK. Thoughts? Random experiments coincidentally happening during SMiLE or purposeful last minute additions to fill some of the gaps?

[doinnothin]

2-any theories on He Gives Speeches? Where it might've fit before it was junked?

I'm not the first one to posit this, but the spot it makes the most sense to me is as an insert, tag, or followup for Wonderful based on:
1) it's similar style of lyrics (she belongs there, he gives speeches)
2) it's recording date coming after Wonderful
3) it's eventual repurposing in She's Going Bald, which also features a part that's somewhat similar to the Wonderful Version 2 tag (this one's a stretch)

I could also see it as a part of Old Master Painter based on:
1) The re-use of the backing vocal melody for the False Barnyard/Barnshine fade.

And maybe even as an alternate to Who Ran The Iron Horse in an early version of Cabin Essence based on:
1) Lyrical connections: "stepped across the golden fields"/"you'll find a meadow filled with grain there" (very tenuous, but possible)

I could actually imagine a version of Old Master Painter that goes Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine/Home On The Range/He Gives Speeches/Home On The Range/Barnshine. But then again, I can imagine a lot of versions of a lot of SMiLE tracks ....

[zosobird]

Great thread!

Really enjoying the discussion, even amidst some of the unnecessary bickering

A few comments:

The Elements?
- Vega-Tables was referenced as a seperate track and that the Elements was a "four-part suite"
- Both Anderle and Vosse discuss the Elements as a different song from Vega-Tables.  If they thought VT was part of the Elements, i find it odd they would talk about the songs in separate contexts.

- SMiLE artwork: My Vega-Tables/the Elements. This seems as much evidence for as against imo, as didn't Frank Holmes mention that some elements were referenced in the image (there is water spickets/rain/pong/wave, vegetables of course, but there is a huge crack like from an earthquake (which could be earth?). Also lightning.
- Brown's McCartney/Vega-Tables/Elements ("four-part suite") comment is quite an insight!

- Wind Chimes? - like VT, WC is also mentioned separately from the Elements, but the end fade, which sounds suspiciously like the "piano overlay section" described as being part of the Elements


IIGS/The Old Master Painter/Barnyard Suite Connection
- Regarding YWMS' inclusion in HV in May '66..  what's the primary source behind this myth??
- Also, i find it hard to believe VDP wasn't aware/didn't help with YWMS.. he kinda did something very similar with "public domain/nearer my god to thee" on Song Cycle, plus Vosse says point blank VDP worked on it.
- My thoughts are "IIGS" would have included IIGS, Barnyard, I Wanna Be Around and Friday Night

- Michael Vosse (Fusion): "One night we were over at his house and he started playing You Are My Sunshine slowly, almost like an R&B thing, just slowing down the tempo, really mournful. And we were all a little high, I guess, and he started singing "you were my sunshine": he put the song in the past tense, and he was trying to find his bass rhythm for it, and in doing that he found this weird little riff that just sort of developed and it hit him, man, right then, that he wanted a barnyard, he wanted Old MacDonald's famr, he wanted all that stuff. So he immediately got Van Dyke over and they did a chart for "You Were My Sunshine". It's so hard to remember exactly what he wound up doing, because he changed things so much, but he wound up writing a clarinet part for it which is impossible to describe: a whole different sound that he found in the middle of all this, and it developed into an instrumental thing with barnyard sounds, people sawing (he had people in the studio sawing on wood) and Van Dyke being a duck - and it was marvelous. It made you smile and at the same time touched you."

Good Vibrations
- Bottom line, the song would have been on the SMiLE. From interviews, it is clear GV was not part of BW's original/desired vision of SMiLE, but if there was a SMiLE album released in 67 it would have included GV. I don't understand why this is even debated. I also agree it would have opened/closed an album side.

[doinnothin]

- Both Anderle and Vosse discuss the Elements as a different song from Vega-Tables.  If they thought VT was part of the Elements, i find it odd they would talk about the songs in separate contexts.

Well there is the info from AGD that he was told The Elements would have featured a cross-fade at some point. Could make sense as a transition from the rest of the Elements to Vega-Tables. Granted he said it was an internal crossfade, but still.

[soniclovenoize]

- Wind Chimes? - like VT, WC is also mentioned separately from the Elements, but the end fade, which sounds suspiciously like the "piano overlay section" described as being part of the Elements

While I agree with you, I just want to clarify that Brian had said Air was an "unfinished piano piece", not specifically the "piano overlay section"; Vosse was the one that was talking about a piano overlay section, in regards to Wind Chimes.  I made the connection earlier in the thread (not the first, I'm sure) but based on a hunch/assumption, not direct quotes or evidence. 

IIGS/The Old Master Painter/Barnyard Suite Connection
- Regarding YWMS' inclusion in HV in May '66..  what's the primary source behind this myth??

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was Al Kooper who said this. 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

2-any theories on He Gives Speeches? Where it might've fit before it was junked?

I'm not the first one to posit this, but the spot it makes the most sense to me is as an insert, tag, or followup for Wonderful based on:
1) it's similar style of lyrics (she belongs there, he gives speeches)
2) it's recording date coming after Wonderful
3) it's eventual repurposing in She's Going Bald, which also features a part that's somewhat similar to the Wonderful Version 2 tag (this one's a stretch)

I could also see it as a part of Old Master Painter based on:
1) The re-use of the backing vocal melody for the False Barnyard/Barnshine fade.

And maybe even as an alternate to Who Ran The Iron Horse in an early version of Cabin Essence based on:
1) Lyrical connections: "stepped across the golden fields"/"you'll find a meadow filled with grain there" (very tenuous, but possible)

I could actually imagine a version of Old Master Painter that goes Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine/Home On The Range/He Gives Speeches/Home On The Range/Barnshine. But then again, I can imagine a lot of versions of a lot of SMiLE tracks ....

I actually feel the same way. Wasnt aware it was done just after Wonderful, so thats good to know--lends credence to the theory.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Great thread!

Really enjoying the discussion, even amidst some of the unnecessary bickering

A few comments:

The Elements?
- Vega-Tables was referenced as a seperate track and that the Elements was a "four-part suite"
- Both Anderle and Vosse discuss the Elements as a different song from Vega-Tables.  If they thought VT was part of the Elements, i find it odd they would talk about the songs in separate contexts.

- SMiLE artwork: My Vega-Tables/the Elements. This seems as much evidence for as against imo, as didn't Frank Holmes mention that some elements were referenced in the image (there is water spickets/rain/pong/wave, vegetables of course, but there is a huge crack like from an earthquake (which could be earth?). Also lightning.
- Brown's McCartney/Vega-Tables/Elements ("four-part suite") comment is quite an insight!

- Wind Chimes? - like VT, WC is also mentioned separately from the Elements, but the end fade, which sounds suspiciously like the "piano overlay section" described as being part of the Elements

There's contradictory evidence for Veggies in the Elements. Its to the point where my personal solution is to merge the two ideas: it was in there at one point, but quickly phased out. Then Fire was abandoned, but Brian still wanted to return to it at some point or else do something elements-related for that song. Personally, I dont think it works aesthetically as part of that suite and prefer it as a standalone track. I think Im just gonna stick with Workshop as the follow-up to Fire and Earth element for now.

If you've read the thread/bickering you know my arguments against Wind Chimes as Air. Unless I see some actual evidence to the contrary, Im 100% certain it was not and never was (pre-BWPS of course) an element. Just my take on it.

IIGS/The Old Master Painter/Barnyard Suite Connection
- Regarding YWMS' inclusion in HV in May '66..  what's the primary source behind this myth??
- Also, i find it hard to believe VDP wasn't aware/didn't help with YWMS.. he kinda did something very similar with "public domain/nearer my god to thee" on Song Cycle, plus Vosse says point blank VDP worked on it.
- My thoughts are "IIGS" would have included IIGS, Barnyard, I Wanna Be Around and Friday Night

- Michael Vosse (Fusion): "One night we were over at his house and he started playing You Are My Sunshine slowly, almost like an R&B thing, just slowing down the tempo, really mournful. And we were all a little high, I guess, and he started singing "you were my sunshine": he put the song in the past tense, and he was trying to find his bass rhythm for it, and in doing that he found this weird little riff that just sort of developed and it hit him, man, right then, that he wanted a barnyard, he wanted Old MacDonald's famr, he wanted all that stuff. So he immediately got Van Dyke over and they did a chart for "You Were My Sunshine". It's so hard to remember exactly what he wound up doing, because he changed things so much, but he wound up writing a clarinet part for it which is impossible to describe: a whole different sound that he found in the middle of all this, and it developed into an instrumental thing with barnyard sounds, people sawing (he had people in the studio sawing on wood) and Van Dyke being a duck - and it was marvelous. It made you smile and at the same time touched you."

Im actually not sure off-hand. Its something Ive read before I know, I just cant recall the source. Hopefully someone else can answer cuz now Im curious.

I agree. OMP sounds more like his influence with Brian. Im pretty sure the whole Americana thing in general was his idea--and notice both that song and the whole Americana movement was dropped for Smiley? (sans Heroes which was the single, and Veggies which is now removed from that context--notice the new spelling on Smiley, and how in its rerecorded state it loses all musical connection to Heroes?)

Fair enough. I still lean towards it being more of a traditional song, like CE and Worms and how they were supposedly constructed of various fragments themselves. But that's just my own hunch--I have no evidence. IIGS may be the most mysterious song on the album--at least we have plausible candidates for all the parts of The Elements.

Good Vibrations
- Bottom line, the song would have been on the SMiLE. From interviews, it is clear GV was not part of BW's original/desired vision of SMiLE, but if there was a SMiLE album released in 67 it would have included GV. I don't understand why this is even debated. I also agree it would have opened/closed an album side.

I used to argue against its inclusion, but that was more of a personal preference. I dont think it totally fits since it wasnt written by VDP and the instrumentation/tone doesnt match either of the two suites. But Brian actually is on record saying the new album would have 10 or 12 songs including GV and Heroes. So it WAS part of his vision back then. And yeah, in any case Capitol wouldve insisted. Anyway, it does kinda fit with the Life side too and Ive warmed up to it.