Your SMiLE mix...for the fun of it

[Bicyclerider]

There is also a January 5 1967 session for H&V Part 2 master #57045 that is on disc 3.

Is there one other than "Do You Like Worms: Bicycle Rider Overdubs (Heroes and Villains Part Two)"? I'd love to fix my info if it's wrong!

I'm not saying there wasn't a proposed two part Heroes and Villains single, there's a lot of evidence for it, I just don't really see how the Master #s point in that direction.

I have to agree with this conclusion now that I've seen a list. And yeah, to reiterate, nobody doubts a 2 sided Heroes was the plan at one point

Yes the idea of a sampler Bside just doesn't work.  And the two master numbers are a red herring - the recordings with the 045 number don't make any kind of coherent B-side, and the first session with that number, the Jan 5 session overdubbing lead vocals and fuzz bass on the Bicycle Rider section from Worms, was obviously intended for the A side as a replacement for Great Shape which had been pulled to its own track.  The vocal mixes on Unsurpased Masters with the 2 verses edited into the beginning of bicycle Rider (these are the verses with Brian on lead and Mike echoing/doubling on the last three words of each verse) demonstrate that.  So BR was to be Part 2 of the Aside replacing the previous Part Two, IIGS ( with a subsequently abandoned Part 3, the chimes "Intro" from December).  Also there's a test edit in circulation of the verse music hard edited into the Bicycle Rider music WITH the backing vocals of the Worms version before the lead was added on Jan 5.

So that means the new master number was being used for Part 2 of the A side, perhaps a new master number because Brian was planningg several parts to Part 2 and wanted to keep them distinct for ease in editing later.  Another reason why the master numbers are a red herring- the "Part 2" sections that we associate with a Bside or part 2 of an extended 7 minute single - Gee/dit dit dit heroes and villains/the fast heroes and villains with handclaps/"Animals"/Swedish Frog/slow dum dum dum heroes and villains - were recorded under the 020 master number, which would be the Aside.  Even with Brian's deteriorating mental state, I find it hard to believe that he would consider 2 minutes plus of repetitive "the heroes the heroes the heroes and villains" chanting as a commercial Aside.  So in this case the 020 master is in fact for the Bside.  So I think the assignment of master number, initially starting with the new master number for Part 2 of the Aside, becomes somewhat random and not Indicative of Brian's intent.  And didn't Good Vibrations sections that ended up in the final single have different master numbers?  So there's precedent for that.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

There is also a January 5 1967 session for H&V Part 2 master #57045 that is on disc 3.

Is there one other than "Do You Like Worms: Bicycle Rider Overdubs (Heroes and Villains Part Two)"? I'd love to fix my info if it's wrong!

I'm not saying there wasn't a proposed two part Heroes and Villains single, there's a lot of evidence for it, I just don't really see how the Master #s point in that direction.

I have to agree with this conclusion now that I've seen a list. And yeah, to reiterate, nobody doubts a 2 sided Heroes was the plan at one point

Yes the idea of a sampler Bside just doesn't work.  And the two master numbers are a red herring - the recordings with the 045 number don't make any kind of coherent B-side, and the first session with that number, the Jan 5 session overdubbing lead vocals and fuzz bass on the Bicycle Rider section from Worms, was obviously intended for the A side as a replacement for Great Shape which had been pulled to its own track.  The vocal mixes on Unsurpased Masters with the 2 verses edited into the beginning of bicycle Rider (these are the verses with Brian on lead and Mike echoing/doubling on the last three words of each verse) demonstrate that.  So BR was to be Part 2 of the Aside replacing the previous Part Two, IIGS ( with a subsequently abandoned Part 3, the chimes "Intro" from December).  Also there's a test edit in circulation of the verse music hard edited into the Bicycle Rider music WITH the backing vocals of the Worms version before the lead was added on Jan 5.

So that means the new master number was being used for Part 2 of the A side, perhaps a new master number because Brian was planningg several parts to Part 2 and wanted to keep them distinct for ease in editing later.  Another reason why the master numbers are a red herring- the "Part 2" sections that we associate with a Bside or part 2 of an extended 7 minute single - Gee/dit dit dit heroes and villains/the fast heroes and villains with handclaps/"Animals"/Swedish Frog/slow dum dum dum heroes and villains - were recorded under the 020 master number, which would be the Aside.  Even with Brian's deteriorating mental state, I find it hard to believe that he would consider 2 minutes plus of repetitive "the heroes the heroes the heroes and villains" chanting as a commercial Aside.  So in this case the 020 master is in fact for the Bside.  So I think the assignment of master number, initially starting with the new master number for Part 2 of the Aside, becomes somewhat random and not Indicative of Brian's intent.  And didn't Good Vibrations sections that ended up in the final single have different master numbers?  So there's precedent for that.

Very well stated. The mystery continues.

[ThreeCats]

Just one example, he says the wood sawing and hammering was part of Brian's "barnyard" or farm concept, along with doing You Are My Sunshine in some kind of Old McDonald Had A Farm scenario...it came from Brian playing "Sunshine" while they were high (according to Vosse) in that slow sad way, then it started spinning into the barnyard direction that included the woodworking/building noises and the animal noises as heard in the actual piece "Barnyard". So it was Brian's sonic version of Old McDonald's Farm, if you take Vosse's word. And I do. 

So Barnyard, OMP/Sunshine, and Workshop were meant to be the Barnyard Suite? But I've also read that IWBA and Workshop were meant to go with Great Shape, and since OMP and Great Shape are listed as different tracks on the Capitol tracklist that kinda creates a contradiction (Smile is full of contradictions though so that's not really surprising). Maybe You Are My Sunshine only gave Brian the idea of the Barnyard Suite and wasn't actually meant to be a part of it? So the actual Barnyard Suite would have been Barnyard, Great Shape, IWBA, and Workshop?

[guitarfool2002]

Just one example, he says the wood sawing and hammering was part of Brian's "barnyard" or farm concept, along with doing You Are My Sunshine in some kind of Old McDonald Had A Farm scenario...it came from Brian playing "Sunshine" while they were high (according to Vosse) in that slow sad way, then it started spinning into the barnyard direction that included the woodworking/building noises and the animal noises as heard in the actual piece "Barnyard". So it was Brian's sonic version of Old McDonald's Farm, if you take Vosse's word. And I do.  

So Barnyard, OMP/Sunshine, and Workshop were meant to be the Barnyard Suite? But I've also read that IWBA and Workshop were meant to go with Great Shape, and since OMP and Great Shape are listed as different tracks on the Capitol tracklist that kinda creates a contradiction (Smile is full of contradictions though so that's not really surprising). Maybe You Are My Sunshine only gave Brian the idea of the Barnyard Suite and wasn't actually meant to be a part of it? So the actual Barnyard Suite would have been Barnyard, Great Shape, IWBA, and Workshop?

That's according to Michael Vosse, and as I said I'd take his word at 99% accurate, because his descriptions line up with what we eventually heard as it came out decades later.

Keep in mind the preview Brian did for Humble Harve, he goes right from Heroes into Great Shape, no break, like a segue. Then they break, small talk, Brian says "another section..." and he kicks off Barnyard. It made me think Great Shape was more of a Heroes thing by design, especially since Brian does the horn's "flutter tone" link right into Great Shape. Part of the same album side perhaps, the Heroes "American" side, but IIGS more of a Heroes link than Barnyard. Maybe.

I think the fan mixes and compilations through the years have muddied the waters on this Barnyard music far more than it was at the time Vosse (for one) heard the plans as they were being made. If Barnyard weren't separated by Brian himself showing it to an outsider while he deliberately did a live segue right from Heroes into IIGS, it may have been harder to place.

[guitarfool2002]

Just to return to Dada for a second, where did the labeling of the Dec 1966 piano and Rhodes tracks Brian recorded originate? Was "Love To Say DaDa" on the 12/66 tape boxes? Because I don't think they were slated, yet they're labeled and grouped with the Dada tracks on the box set. When it was slated in the studio, for a full session, it was late January 1967 and titled "All Day". It was first slated "Love To Say Dada" in May 1967 after it got a second part and full instrumentation.

I mention this too because in between the taped piano recordings for "All Day", Brian says "In those spots we're going to have a bunch of talking, all of us together..." which adds another layer to what this fragment may have been as of January 1967.

Want to return to this again and ask again, where did these titles/labels come from?

[doinnothin]

Just to return to Dada for a second, where did the labeling of the Dec 1966 piano and Rhodes tracks Brian recorded originate? Was "Love To Say DaDa" on the 12/66 tape boxes? Because I don't think they were slated, yet they're labeled and grouped with the Dada tracks on the box set. When it was slated in the studio, for a full session, it was late January 1967 and titled "All Day". It was first slated "Love To Say Dada" in May 1967 after it got a second part and full instrumentation.

I mention this too because in between the taped piano recordings for "All Day", Brian says "In those spots we're going to have a bunch of talking, all of us together..." which adds another layer to what this fragment may have been as of January 1967.

Want to return to this again and ask again, where did these titles/labels come from?

It would be great to have a list of both the slated names of all the different sessions as well as their labels in tape documentation where that information is available (I know there's plenty of stuff where the assemblers of TSS just don't have anymore info)

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

And again, I had some extra time tonight so I made a point of reading the other big article I keep getting hounded to, that is, The Crawdaddy interview with David Anderle. As I read it, I'll list some thoughts Id like to get out, similar to what I did with the Fusion piece. These are my musings on Part I of that interview:

1-Its so sweet hearing him faun over Brian in the beginning. I agree with him, about Brian being ahead of the curve, the forerunner of Rock music, and SMiLE being one of the great albums of all time. What's significant is he too specifically mentions the band not believing in him, fighting about it, and Brian nervously awaiting their return, knowing theyd give him grief for what he was doing. I reiterate, I dont believe in the old "Mike killed SMiLE!" smear campaign, but I've seen the pendulum shift too far the other way lately. Clearly their animosity was a factor, if an over-emphasized one, for the album's collapse. He specifically mentions Mike as the most antagonistic and how Brian would dread going into the studio. Again the "all Mike did was innocently ask about CE once" apologism just doesnt ring true reading these old primary accounts
                        ^He predicts the next big thing from Brian wont come from the Beach Boys. I think this couldve been true had his illness not made leaving them and doing something new for himself next to impossible. I still think this is kinda true if youre like me and consider Love You a solo album featuring the Boys, or perhaps look at BWPS as the big thing.


2-Contrarily, his point about Brian getting bored and then instantly changing gears seems to give an alternate narrative why things happened as they did. Brian realized after 4, 5 months into 1967 that this thing wasnt going anywhere, was gonna take forever to finally get off the ground and got bored of the whole thing. So he pursued another direction as Anderle seems to say he was want to do. Interestingly tho, he accuses Brian of simply giving up with Wild Honey, of retreating to the basics and not progressing anymore. I have to agree personally; not a big fan of WH, I always saw it as a huge step backward after the innovation of SMiLE and Smiley. The interviewer offers the idea that Captiol released WH, and this must mean it doesnt count in Brian's eyes, which Anderle agrees with. Very fascinating.
                ^Its interesting he mentions Brian's tendency to drop people suddenly for the same reasons. Ive seen people on the board here mention that a lot.

3-Oh there it is AGAIN, talking about how important humor was to Brian, how he wanted to make the first pop humor LP, how he sent them to record humorous conversations. Some of you will argue theres no proof this is PS, no proof this first humor album would be SMiLE but rather a second project, etc. I have to say, I think you'd have to be grasping at straws at this point to argue against humor on SMiLE. In spite of how unfairly ignored they've been all these years, all the flak and accusations of "hobbyhorsing" Ive been getting for sticking up for them, how Ive recently had my arguments dismissed for not reading this article yet.... it seems increasingly undeniable that PS, in some capacity, would be on SMiLE. All the main sources you all agree are reliable and cite as the most important to read point to this very thing Ive been saying all along. It's undeniable that humor was important to Brian and intertwined with the SMiLE project. The very name, the cover and packaging Vosse mentions, desire for the group to be laughed at in the pictures, all the OTHER evidence Ive been talking about BEFORE I was aware of these articles, and now finally Anderle corroborating it. Its the very first thing he brings up once the topic turns to SMiLE and its catharsis. You cannot accuse me of playing double standards with evidence when the very evidence you seem to care about so much, and look down on me for not reading, supports my argument too.
          ^He goes back to this point again later, reiterating that Brian was all about humor--so much so that he couldnt work or function with someone he deemed humorless

4-He specifically seems to recreate one of these PS recordings, describing the chanting into the mic, how Brian put it to music after, and everyone agreeing it sounded great. Again, the PS seem to be rough working ideas. They almost certainly wouldnt be on SMiLE as is, but would be shortened, refined, probably rerecorded with the Boys or Wrecking Crew and set to music.
              ^Once again, this isnt such a bizarre idea as its made out to be. Think Smiley Smile and the Cantina Edit.

5-There's much ago made about a "second album" a "humor album" separate from SMiLE. People point to some of Brian's offhand experiments like the silverware thing, PS (erroneously in my opinion) and other things. I personally interpret this as NOT a humor album, at least not specifically, but as an experimental album. Things like, again, the silverware thing, Vosse's water recordings edited into a song and stuff like that. Im sure someone will disagree with me on this interpretation but the way Anderle describes it all makes me believe this to be the case. I dont think even Brian would think a whole album of nothing but "Argument"/"Bob's Real Trip"/"Smog" would be an enjoyable listen for anyone. Those recordings are interesting curiosities, but not something even I listen to for pleasure alone. They DO work brilliantly with the SMiLE context because of the matching themes explored and as accompaniments to that music. HOWEVER, I think an album of very experimental minimalist recordings like people playing a song with silverware and water would be very cool and enjoyable. I concede this point is mostly speculation, however.
                  ^It could very well be possible that the silverware thing and water recordings be worked into SMiLE too. Im not against that in any way. Its a moot point anyway, because they were either never preserved or never leaked.

EDIT: Furthermore, off that last point, alot of that describes Smiley too, the more I think about it. The glass of water poured in Vegetables, cork popped in Wind Chimes, etc. Now, whether you take this to mean SMiLE would have these oddball elements or Brian only felt free to work this in when free of the SMiLE framework is up to you. Personally, I choose the former.

[ThreeCats]

Just one example, he says the wood sawing and hammering was part of Brian's "barnyard" or farm concept, along with doing You Are My Sunshine in some kind of Old McDonald Had A Farm scenario...it came from Brian playing "Sunshine" while they were high (according to Vosse) in that slow sad way, then it started spinning into the barnyard direction that included the woodworking/building noises and the animal noises as heard in the actual piece "Barnyard". So it was Brian's sonic version of Old McDonald's Farm, if you take Vosse's word. And I do.  

So Barnyard, OMP/Sunshine, and Workshop were meant to be the Barnyard Suite? But I've also read that IWBA and Workshop were meant to go with Great Shape, and since OMP and Great Shape are listed as different tracks on the Capitol tracklist that kinda creates a contradiction (Smile is full of contradictions though so that's not really surprising). Maybe You Are My Sunshine only gave Brian the idea of the Barnyard Suite and wasn't actually meant to be a part of it? So the actual Barnyard Suite would have been Barnyard, Great Shape, IWBA, and Workshop?

That's according to Michael Vosse, and as I said I'd take his word at 99% accurate, because his descriptions line up with what we eventually heard as it came out decades later.

Keep in mind the preview Brian did for Humble Harve, he goes right from Heroes into Great Shape, no break, like a segue. Then they break, small talk, Brian says "another section..." and he kicks off Barnyard. It made me think Great Shape was more of a Heroes thing by design, especially since Brian does the horn's "flutter tone" link right into Great Shape. Part of the same album side perhaps, the Heroes "American" side, but IIGS more of a Heroes link than Barnyard. Maybe.

I think the fan mixes and compilations through the years have muddied the waters on this Barnyard music far more than it was at the time Vosse (for one) heard the plans as they were being made. If Barnyard weren't separated by Brian himself showing it to an outsider while he deliberately did a live segue right from Heroes into IIGS, it may have been harder to place.

I dunno, to me it just sounds like Brian couldn't think of a transition between Great Shape and Barnyard at the time. He calls it another "section," not another "song," so it's pretty ambiguous. And just a month later Great Shape was put down on the Capitol tracklist as its own separate track. I don't really see that as evidence of Great Shape having a stronger link to Heroes than Barnyard.

And it's interesting that every section that came out of that whole barnyard brainstorm (Barnyard, Sunshine, Workshop) ended up being recorded for different songs. Barnyard was recorded for Heroes, Sunshine was recorded for OMP, and Workshop was recorded for, well, something. Maybe Brian originally envisioned them together as some sort of Barnyard Suite but later decided that they would be better split up into different songs, sorta like how different sections that were originally meant for Heroes were split off into other tracks. I also found this Van Dyke Parks quote regarding Great Shape:

"Eggs and grits and lickety-split, I’m in the great shape — of the agriculture." Obviously Brian had come up with some more notes there, so the lyrics once again are following the notes. He decided not to include those notes or that section in "Heroes And Villains", but put them in another place later. But it’s interesting how there was, all of a sudden, this turning to eggs and grits. It’s because it had something to do with the thought of a barnyard, and that related to that place we were trying to come up with in "Heroes And Villains". All those lyrics were visual efforts.

So if Parks is to be believed, Great Shape did come from the whole barnyard concept that Brian was thinking up. Sure, Brian ended up trying to fit it into Heroes, but it probably originated from that barnyard brainstorm that Vosse was talking about. That means that the connection between Great Shape and Barnyard is a bit stronger than I originally thought.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

My thoughts on Part III of the same interview. Heres my source for finding this article: http://www.lysergia.com/LamaWorkshop/Crawd/lamaCrawd.htm It seems to skip the May issue which I assume contains Part II. Can anyone provide me with scans to that? I do own LLVS, but its at my parents house, and besides that I dont have the time to read and flip thru it right now. Thanks.

1-Love how he now points out that Brian was also first in the back to basics movement of 1968. He just did it *so* ahead of everyone that nobody noticed or gave him credit for it.
     ^However, I think Brian did that earlier than even Anderle gives him credit for, with Smiley, not WH.

2-Also find it sadly ironic how he goes on about Brian first recording Surfs Up on piano and how it blew everyone away. Gah...that should have just been the second single, dammit! 
          ^Funny that unlike Vosse, he doesnt weigh in on the single issue. Vosse mentions that he thought Heroes should be the single and that once the focus shifted to that, the album died a slow death.

3-I disagree with this lengthy discussion on how artists SHOULDNT innovate. Frankly, to me, the late 60s is by far the greatest period of pop music BECAUSE of all the innovation and competition going on. The production race and using the studio as an instrument, every release pushing the boundaries of what could be done...this, to me, created the best albums ever. I also disagree that SMiLE would be an extension of Pet Sounds, and that Brian must have thought it was unnecessary. I realize the reasons for its abandonment are multifaceted but I dont believe that was part of it. I realize the transition from SMiLE to Smiley was more smooth than we had previously believed but I still believe that collapse was indeed a collapse and crushed Brian's spirit in many ways. Overall, its interesting to note Anderle's change in perspective since the three months from the last interview. Somewhat casts doubt on his memory, then. Like, if his stance on WH and SMiLE did a near 180 here, what does that say?
           ^He makes a similar change of opinion on Mike, tho here it makes more sense since Mike recently got into TM

4-Very bizarre and sad in hindsight how Anderle believes Brian's dark period is over and hes back to where he was pre-Pet Sounds again. He says he imagines Brian must be happy...going into the studio and being as productive as before. Hey says he believes Brian will recapture the old audience and capture the newcomers in the near future. Its heartbreaking to read this section, knowing what we know now. And again, he returns to HUMOR and how important it is for Brian to explore that.
        ^You would think that he would see Smiley as something of a nervous breakdown, a cry for help, a sign of giving up, I would think. Its actually really annoying how much focus is given to WH and not Smiley

5-At the end, he seems to confirm that the main cause of SMiLE's death was Brian's need for instant gratification. Makes sense, yet not a theory you see put out by others. Interesting.
         ^Thats about the ONLY thing SMiLE-related in the whole piece, annoyingly.

So yeah. I really hope there was more SMiLE related discussion in the missing second part, otherwise I cannot for the life of me understand why it was so important for me to read this for my theories to be taken seriously, to prove Im not a bully, etc. It was interesting as a general character study of Brian from someone who knew him and clearly cares very deeply about him, but I didnt learn anything about SMiLE. Again, nothing that disproves anything I had been saying. Overall, this is a good read in general but very frustrating for someone like me looking for SMiLE information--particularly anecdotes that it was apparently so crucial I read to be worthy of commenting. Of far more interest to me is the story about The United States of America in that same June issue I look forward to reading soon. Love that band, my all-time favorite (completed) album, would kill to have footage of their sole tour. And regarding SMiLE, I think the Vosse piece is far more indispensable and revealing.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Just one example, he says the wood sawing and hammering was part of Brian's "barnyard" or farm concept, along with doing You Are My Sunshine in some kind of Old McDonald Had A Farm scenario...it came from Brian playing "Sunshine" while they were high (according to Vosse) in that slow sad way, then it started spinning into the barnyard direction that included the woodworking/building noises and the animal noises as heard in the actual piece "Barnyard". So it was Brian's sonic version of Old McDonald's Farm, if you take Vosse's word. And I do. 

So Barnyard, OMP/Sunshine, and Workshop were meant to be the Barnyard Suite? But I've also read that IWBA and Workshop were meant to go with Great Shape, and since OMP and Great Shape are listed as different tracks on the Capitol tracklist that kinda creates a contradiction (Smile is full of contradictions though so that's not really surprising). Maybe You Are My Sunshine only gave Brian the idea of the Barnyard Suite and wasn't actually meant to be a part of it? So the actual Barnyard Suite would have been Barnyard, Great Shape, IWBA, and Workshop?

That's according to Michael Vosse, and as I said I'd take his word at 99% accurate, because his descriptions line up with what we eventually heard as it came out decades later.

Keep in mind the preview Brian did for Humble Harve, he goes right from Heroes into Great Shape, no break, like a segue. Then they break, small talk, Brian says "another section..." and he kicks off Barnyard. It made me think Great Shape was more of a Heroes thing by design, especially since Brian does the horn's "flutter tone" link right into Great Shape. Part of the same album side perhaps, the Heroes "American" side, but IIGS more of a Heroes link than Barnyard. Maybe.

I think the fan mixes and compilations through the years have muddied the waters on this Barnyard music far more than it was at the time Vosse (for one) heard the plans as they were being made. If Barnyard weren't separated by Brian himself showing it to an outsider while he deliberately did a live segue right from Heroes into IIGS, it may have been harder to place.

I dunno, to me it just sounds like Brian couldn't think of a transition between Great Shape and Barnyard at the time. He calls it another "section," not another "song," so it's pretty ambiguous. And just a month later Great Shape was put down on the Capitol tracklist as its own separate track. I don't really see that as evidence of Great Shape having a stronger link to Heroes than Barnyard.

And it's interesting that every section that came out of that whole barnyard brainstorm (Barnyard, Sunshine, Workshop) ended up being recorded for different songs. Barnyard was recorded for Heroes, Sunshine was recorded for OMP, and Workshop was recorded for, well, something. Maybe Brian originally envisioned them together as some sort of Barnyard Suite but later decided that they would be better split up into different songs, sorta like how different sections that were originally meant for Heroes were split off into other tracks. I also found this Van Dyke Parks quote regarding Great Shape:

"Eggs and grits and lickety-split, I’m in the great shape — of the agriculture." Obviously Brian had come up with some more notes there, so the lyrics once again are following the notes. He decided not to include those notes or that section in "Heroes And Villains", but put them in another place later. But it’s interesting how there was, all of a sudden, this turning to eggs and grits. It’s because it had something to do with the thought of a barnyard, and that related to that place we were trying to come up with in "Heroes And Villains". All those lyrics were visual efforts.

So if Parks is to be believed, Great Shape did come from the whole barnyard concept that Brian was thinking up. Sure, Brian ended up trying to fit it into Heroes, but it probably originated from that barnyard brainstorm that Vosse was talking about. That means that the connection between Great Shape and Barnyard is a bit stronger than I originally thought.

Im of the camp that Barnyard was originally the fade to H&V, and got replaced. Now Im thinking it wouldve been the fade to IIGS. Who knows about Workshop. Personally, especially since Im starting to lean towards going back to my Olorin groupings and separating Veggies and Elements to different sides, I think Im leaning towards using it as a suitable standin for Earth again. I dont buy into this literal "building the barn/cart" interpretation. I think it works better as a humorous musical pun--rebuilding after the fire, rebuilding the girl's heart/confidence after Wonderful.

That quote from Parks is interesting. Id like to redo my effort at an IIGS track, this time using a more simple chorus/verse/chorus/verse/fade structure, using GS as the verse, Do A Lot as the chorus, and Barnyard as the fade.

Guitarfool, I agree that Vosse is a very good source, and I totally believe his account for how OMP/barnyard and possibly Workshop were related. I just...well...I think things changed since then. This was obviously incredibly early in the SMiLE sessions. By November/December I think those songs split up. I dont believe Workshop is really what he wanted for Earth, but its by far the most acceptable standin we have. And I think OMP is a standalone and Barnyard was worked into Heroes and then probably IIGS.

I agree fan mixes, boots and Priore have muddied the waters when conducting an informal investigation into the "real" SMiLE. I just dont think this is one of those cases. Not doubting Vosse, or what he experienced, just pointing out his witnessing of Brian's first playing of these songs was incredibly early in the albums recording, not an official recording, and it seems due to later evidence from that crucial Nov~Dec period point to these sections splitting up.

[buddhahat]

Just one example, he says the wood sawing and hammering was part of Brian's "barnyard" or farm concept, along with doing You Are My Sunshine in some kind of Old McDonald Had A Farm scenario...it came from Brian playing "Sunshine" while they were high (according to Vosse) in that slow sad way, then it started spinning into the barnyard direction that included the woodworking/building noises and the animal noises as heard in the actual piece "Barnyard". So it was Brian's sonic version of Old McDonald's Farm, if you take Vosse's word. And I do.  

So Barnyard, OMP/Sunshine, and Workshop were meant to be the Barnyard Suite? But I've also read that IWBA and Workshop were meant to go with Great Shape, and since OMP and Great Shape are listed as different tracks on the Capitol tracklist that kinda creates a contradiction (Smile is full of contradictions though so that's not really surprising). Maybe You Are My Sunshine only gave Brian the idea of the Barnyard Suite and wasn't actually meant to be a part of it? So the actual Barnyard Suite would have been Barnyard, Great Shape, IWBA, and Workshop?

That's according to Michael Vosse, and as I said I'd take his word at 99% accurate, because his descriptions line up with what we eventually heard as it came out decades later.

Keep in mind the preview Brian did for Humble Harve, he goes right from Heroes into Great Shape, no break, like a segue. Then they break, small talk, Brian says "another section..." and he kicks off Barnyard. It made me think Great Shape was more of a Heroes thing by design, especially since Brian does the horn's "flutter tone" link right into Great Shape. Part of the same album side perhaps, the Heroes "American" side, but IIGS more of a Heroes link than Barnyard. Maybe.

I think the fan mixes and compilations through the years have muddied the waters on this Barnyard music far more than it was at the time Vosse (for one) heard the plans as they were being made. If Barnyard weren't separated by Brian himself showing it to an outsider while he deliberately did a live segue right from Heroes into IIGS, it may have been harder to place.

I dunno, to me it just sounds like Brian couldn't think of a transition between Great Shape and Barnyard at the time. He calls it another "section," not another "song," so it's pretty ambiguous. And just a month later Great Shape was put down on the Capitol tracklist as its own separate track. I don't really see that as evidence of Great Shape having a stronger link to Heroes than Barnyard.

Yes this is how I always hear Barnyard in the demo - as part of Heroes & Villains. When he says "There's another section" I think he's either saying, "there's another section after Great Shape which we're still working on so let's miss it and jump straight to this cool other section: Barnyard" or he's saying "There's another section - and here it is: Barnyard". It just doesn't seem plausible to me that he's demoing Heroes and then plays Barnyard as part of a totally different song.

Actually, listening it sounds like he says "There's another section now" then moves into Barnyard. Although I might be mishearing that now - he could be saying "there's another section after"

Halfway through playing Barnyard he slows down and says "I haven't finished this" which suggests to me that when he says "We're still working - there's another section" he's more than likely talking about Barnyard - that's the section that still needs the work.

It seems like he's humming a lot of lyric parts so perhaps VDP was still working on lyrics and that's what the "We haven't finished this" refers to?

There's certainly a lot of space for lyrics if you listen to the backing track.

Listening to the demo there's a pause in the Barnyard section and a short exchange between Brian and maybe Danny Hutton and VDP? It sounds like this to my ears:
BW: "You're the lamb and he'll do the chicken ..."
Hutton(?): "... thing (or "ya think?" hard to hear) 'cause that's something he's having trouble with - You're still nowhere near."
VDP: "OK"

Are they talking about Brian having trouble with Heroes and Villains, the Barnyard section, or are they talking about the difficulty VDP is having writing lyrics for Barnyard or just the difficulty one of them is having making the animal sound(!)?

I'm rambling a bit but, listening to this demo, I wonder if Barnyard was more significant than is generally thought in that it was a part that Brian or VDP or both was having trouble with. Perhaps, if Barnyard was a substantial part of the song, after the flutter tone it was just to be Great Shape/tape explosion followed by Barnyard as the coda.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Just one example, he says the wood sawing and hammering was part of Brian's "barnyard" or farm concept, along with doing You Are My Sunshine in some kind of Old McDonald Had A Farm scenario...it came from Brian playing "Sunshine" while they were high (according to Vosse) in that slow sad way, then it started spinning into the barnyard direction that included the woodworking/building noises and the animal noises as heard in the actual piece "Barnyard". So it was Brian's sonic version of Old McDonald's Farm, if you take Vosse's word. And I do.  

So Barnyard, OMP/Sunshine, and Workshop were meant to be the Barnyard Suite? But I've also read that IWBA and Workshop were meant to go with Great Shape, and since OMP and Great Shape are listed as different tracks on the Capitol tracklist that kinda creates a contradiction (Smile is full of contradictions though so that's not really surprising). Maybe You Are My Sunshine only gave Brian the idea of the Barnyard Suite and wasn't actually meant to be a part of it? So the actual Barnyard Suite would have been Barnyard, Great Shape, IWBA, and Workshop?

That's according to Michael Vosse, and as I said I'd take his word at 99% accurate, because his descriptions line up with what we eventually heard as it came out decades later.

Keep in mind the preview Brian did for Humble Harve, he goes right from Heroes into Great Shape, no break, like a segue. Then they break, small talk, Brian says "another section..." and he kicks off Barnyard. It made me think Great Shape was more of a Heroes thing by design, especially since Brian does the horn's "flutter tone" link right into Great Shape. Part of the same album side perhaps, the Heroes "American" side, but IIGS more of a Heroes link than Barnyard. Maybe.

I think the fan mixes and compilations through the years have muddied the waters on this Barnyard music far more than it was at the time Vosse (for one) heard the plans as they were being made. If Barnyard weren't separated by Brian himself showing it to an outsider while he deliberately did a live segue right from Heroes into IIGS, it may have been harder to place.

I dunno, to me it just sounds like Brian couldn't think of a transition between Great Shape and Barnyard at the time. He calls it another "section," not another "song," so it's pretty ambiguous. And just a month later Great Shape was put down on the Capitol tracklist as its own separate track. I don't really see that as evidence of Great Shape having a stronger link to Heroes than Barnyard.

Yes this is how I always hear Barnyard in the demo - as part of Heroes & Villains. When he says "There's another section" I think he's either saying, "there's another section after Great Shape which we're still working on so let's miss it and jump straight to this cool other section: Barnyard" or he's saying "There's another section - and here it is: Barnyard". It just doesn't seem plausible to me that he's demoing Heroes and then plays Barnyard as part of a totally different song.

Actually, listening it sounds like he says "There's another section now" then moves into Barnyard. Although I might be mishearing that now - he could be saying "there's another section after"

Halfway through playing Barnyard he slows down and says "I haven't finished this" which suggests to me that when he says "We're still working - there's another section" he's more than likely talking about Barnyard - that's the section that still needs the work.

It seems like he's humming a lot of lyric parts so perhaps VDP was still working on lyrics and that's what the "We haven't finished this" refers to?

There's certainly a lot of space for lyrics if you listen to the backing track.

Listening to the demo there's a pause in the Barnyard section and a short exchange between Brian and maybe Danny Hutton and VDP? It sounds like this to my ears:
BW: "You're the lamb and he'll do the chicken ..."
Hutton(?): "... thing (or "ya think?" hard to hear) 'cause that's something he's having trouble with - You're still nowhere near."
VDP: "OK"

Are they talking about Brian having trouble with Heroes and Villains, the Barnyard section, or are they talking about the difficulty VDP is having writing lyrics for Barnyard or just the difficulty one of them is having making the animal sound(!)?

I'm rambling a bit but, listening to this demo, I wonder if Barnyard was more significant than is generally thought in that it was a part that Brian or VDP or both was having trouble with. Perhaps, if Barnyard was a substantial part of the song, after the flutter tone it was just to be Great Shape/tape explosion followed by Barnyard as the coda.

My speculation? Barnyard wasn't super important. It was the fade to Heroes and then a little later, it wasn't. Personally I think most of the other candidates for Heroes' fade work better and make more sense. The stolen OMP fade is probably the best, but if you want to keep that in its original track, there's a dozen others you can make from all the various sections.

I also think GS would be the interlude section that Cantina eventually became. It comes in like a dream, or a memory, and the tape explosion is like waking up or coming back to reality--ie the song proper.

Can we all just agree tho that the fact that we can take all these little sections and argue whether they're in Heroes/IIGS/OMP is significant? And that Brian going back and forth himself, as well as back and forth on CE/Worms and IIGS/Veggies too, is even more significant? You don't hear about this kind of jumbling of Heroes into Wonderful, Worms into Surfs Up or OMP in Wind Chimes for example. It's always between the songs we typically associate with Americana. I take this to be extremely compelling evidence those songs would go together on a side since they're all part of the same train of thought, and their individual pieces interchangeable. Furthermore, since its pretty clear the Americana idea was more VDP's thing, I wonder if this correlation means anything? If he was more prone to writing in snippets or rather, he had a lot of little ideas of vignettes of America he wanted to express but not so much full songs?

[Bicyclerider]

Vosse may have explained what Brian had in mind for Workshop (IWBA/FNB), OMP <with Sunshine Fade later used for the cantina Heroes) and Barnyard early on in the recording process, and it kind of makes sense - but we have two fades, Barnyard and Sunshine in one song, really three with Friday Night, so it's hard to understand how they would fit together.  And if there is a Barnyard suite, why isn't it on the list of tracks in Dember?  As someone pointed out, IIGS aand Barnyard are closely linked and I suspect they came out of Heroes together - so if there is still a Barnyard suite post the track list, it would have to be the IIGS track listing.  Putting the pieces together is still problematic.

Another possible piece of a Barnyard/Great Shape suite - Do A Lot, recorded Jan 3 at a Heroes session.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Vosse may have explained what Brian had in mind for Workshop (IWBA/FNB), OMP <with Sunshine Fade later used for the cantina Heroes) and Barnyard early on in the recording process, and it kind of makes sense - but we have two fades, Barnyard and Sunshine in one song, really three with Friday Night, so it's hard to understand how they would fit together.  And if there is a Barnyard suite, why isn't it on the list of tracks in Dember?  As someone pointed out, IIGS aand Barnyard are closely linked and I suspect they came out of Heroes together - so if there is still a Barnyard suite post the track list, it would have to be the IIGS track listing.  Putting the pieces together is still problematic.

Another possible piece of a Barnyard/Great Shape suite - Do A Lot, recorded Jan 3 at a Heroes session.

I agree with this post completely.

[Jason Penick]

Just to return to Dada for a second, where did the labeling of the Dec 1966 piano and Rhodes tracks Brian recorded originate? Was "Love To Say DaDa" on the 12/66 tape boxes? Because I don't think they were slated, yet they're labeled and grouped with the Dada tracks on the box set. When it was slated in the studio, for a full session, it was late January 1967 and titled "All Day". It was first slated "Love To Say Dada" in May 1967 after it got a second part and full instrumentation.

I mention this too because in between the taped piano recordings for "All Day", Brian says "In those spots we're going to have a bunch of talking, all of us together..." which adds another layer to what this fragment may have been as of January 1967.

Want to return to this again and ask again, where did these titles/labels come from?

I think somebody upthread mentioned the 12.22.66 tapes were labelled simply "Dada", and you're right in saying neither is slated on TSS. I think only C-Man can confirm what the December tapes say, unless it's mentioned in the booklet somewhere.

[Bicyclerider]

True about December but the All Day session is slated as "All Day" so that's where that title comes from.

[Jason Penick]

Does anybody buy into my latest admittedly specious theory that "I'm in Great Shape"/ "Barnyard" was meant to replace "Look" as the bridge between "Wonderful" and "Child Is the Father", once it was excised from "Heroes" in favor of the new chorus? Somebody did mention a quote from Darian earlier in the thread that the second movement of BWPS was "vintage", and that would seem to explain "Shape"'s inclusion on the track list, particularly given its placement (I know, see label for correct order).

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Does anybody buy into my latest admittedly specious theory that "I'm in Great Shape"/ "Barnyard" was meant to replace "Look" as the bridge between "Wonderful" and "Child Is the Father", once it was excised from "Heroes" in favor of the new chorus? Somebody did mention a quote from Darian earlier in the thread that the second movement of BWPS was "vintage", and that would seem to explain "Shape"'s inclusion on the track list, particularly given its placement (I know, see label for correct order).

Nope, not at all. The more Ive considered it since this thread started, Im convinced the sides would be grouped as such: Worms, Cabin, IIGS, Veggies, Heroes, OMP, and GV, WC, Wonderful, CIFOTM, Elements and SU. Not necessarily in that order. Reasons include all the tracks on the first side shuffled sections between each other frequently meaning they were all extremely inter-related and of the same train of thought. Instrumental/Thematic similarities among the songs on each respective side (the outliers being GV and Elements). The songs, when grouped thus, also work in an astrological context, with Side One representing the old Piscean Age and all the trappings of monotheism, colonialism and imperialism that are associated with it, while Side Two explores individuality, growth and personal expression more, associated with the coming Aquarian Age. Finally, if you follow numerology and add up all those song titles, they come out evenly on each side. Brian was really into astrology and numerology according to various sources, so those last two reasons MAY be reaching but I think they're plausible things he wouldve considered, and in any case they stay true to the influences of the album so it fits even if he specifically didnt think of it.

I dont believe in the linking tracks as we had in BWPS. I think, while the songs build on each other when grouped this way, each would still individually fade out and form its own complete thought. The songs stand alone, but still add up to a bigger message. 

[Jason Penick]

Nope, not at all. The more Ive considered it since this thread started, Im convinced the sides would be grouped as such: Worms, Cabin, IIGS, Veggies, Heroes, OMP, and GV, WC, Wonderful, CIFOTM, Elements and SU. Not necessarily in that order. Reasons include all the tracks on the first side shuffled sections between each other frequently meaning they were all extremely inter-related and of the same train of thought. Instrumental/Thematic similarities among the songs each respective side (the outliers being GV and Elements). The songs, when grouped thus, also work in an astrological context, with Side One representing the old Piscean Age and all the trappings of monotheism, colonialism and imperialism that are associated with it, while Side Two explores individuality, growth and personal expression more, associated with the coming Aquarian Age. Finally, if you follow numerology and add up all those song titles, they come out evenly on each side. Brian was really into astrology and numerology according to various sources, so those last two reasons MAY be reaching but I think they're plausible things he wouldve considered, and in any case they stay true to the influences of the album so it fits in any case.

I dont believe in the linking tracks as we had in BWPS. I think, while the songs build on each other when grouped this way, each would still individually fade out and form its own complete thought. The songs stand alone, but still add up to a bigger message. 

I think for somebody who claims to want the facts that you're engaging in some highly speculative lines of thought there, but fair enough. Admittedly my own theory was rather circumspect.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Nope, not at all. The more Ive considered it since this thread started, Im convinced the sides would be grouped as such: Worms, Cabin, IIGS, Veggies, Heroes, OMP, and GV, WC, Wonderful, CIFOTM, Elements and SU. Not necessarily in that order. Reasons include all the tracks on the first side shuffled sections between each other frequently meaning they were all extremely inter-related and of the same train of thought. Instrumental/Thematic similarities among the songs each respective side (the outliers being GV and Elements). The songs, when grouped thus, also work in an astrological context, with Side One representing the old Piscean Age and all the trappings of monotheism, colonialism and imperialism that are associated with it, while Side Two explores individuality, growth and personal expression more, associated with the coming Aquarian Age. Finally, if you follow numerology and add up all those song titles, they come out evenly on each side. Brian was really into astrology and numerology according to various sources, so those last two reasons MAY be reaching but I think they're plausible things he wouldve considered, and in any case they stay true to the influences of the album so it fits in any case.

I dont believe in the linking tracks as we had in BWPS. I think, while the songs build on each other when grouped this way, each would still individually fade out and form its own complete thought. The songs stand alone, but still add up to a bigger message. 

I think for somebody who claims to want the facts that you're engaging in some highly speculative lines of thought there, but fair enough. Admittedly my own theory was rather circumspect.

Again, I havent read LLVS yet, but I did finally read the two big articles harped on in this thread as THE things to read. I've done a lot of other research through the years--Beautiful Dreamer, websites, old Smile Shop essays, etc, played around with the music for myself to determine what "sounds right" as well as spent a lot of time here, seeing various quotes from LLVS and articles/sources as well as taking in other people's speculation and playing around with the ideas Ive gathered.

Ultimately, the sequence of SMiLE is nothing BUT speculation. There's no source that says "yes, this song goes here and that one goes there" so the best thing to do is weigh the evidence you're familiar with, be open to new sources presented, and admittedly a personal aesthetic preference factors in too to an extent. For all the accusations of speculation and double standards Ive gotten so far, Ive yet to hear anyone actually make a more compelling argument for an alternative sequence/groupings. And the articles that I was led to believe would shatter my understanding of SMiLE, and that I was a novice for not having read yet only really supported my ideas or else offered little insight I wasnt aware of from other sources already.

[Cam Mott]

RE. "H&V Part 2" #57045: I'm not going to argue with anyone's second guessing of Brian but if you accept a 2 sided H&V single, as per Vosse and Britz, how much more evidence do we need that H&V Part 2 #57045 "Side 2" was for that side 2 of H&V than a new master number with a separate H&V title of it's own marked as "Side 2" ?  It was marked as "Side 2" right? Is my memory playing tricks on me?

What was the master number for the side 2 if not #57045?

GV may have had multiple master numbers but they were all for the same title and no one has suggested that GV was to be a 2 sided single. #57020 was for the title H&V and #57045 was for the title H&V Part 2. So that and #57045 is marked as for a Side 2 are differences with GV. 

People heard this 2 sided version back in the day as I understand it. Someone on this board has heard it I believe. But no one seems to have a description. Bruce has claimed he has a copy of the recording, right? Unless it really is in a time capsule in a cornerstone in Hawaii or whatever, I wonder why it wasn't in TSS?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

RE. "H&V Part 2" #57045: I'm not going to argue with anyone's second guessing of Brian but if you accept a 2 sided H&V single, as per Vosse and Britz, how much more evidence do we need that H&V Part 2 #57045 "Side 2" was for that side 2 of H&V than a new master number with a separate H&V title of it's own marked as "Side 2" ?  It was marked as "Side 2" right? Is my memory playing tricks on me?

What was the master number for the side 2 if not #57045?

GV may have had multiple master numbers but they were all for the same title and no one has suggested that GV was to be a 2 sided single. #57020 was for the title H&V and #57045 was for the title H&V Part 2. So that and #57045 is marked as for a Side 2 are differences with GV. 

People heard this 2 sided version back in the day as I understand it. Someone on this board has heard it I believe. But no one seems to have a description. Bruce has claimed he has a copy of the recording, right? Unless it really is in a time capsule in a cornerstone in Hawaii or whatever, I wonder why it wasn't in TSS?

You and me both. MANY questionable omissions from the boxset, while a whole disc is wasted on useless GV outtakes. I want that, the Durrie Parks stuff thats new, any vintage test edits--especially the new CIFOTM one they found--as well as the sessions cut out from UM 17. Im probably alone, but I wouldve liked more Psychedelic Sounds too. Even the stuff we got, like the snippets of the Veggie Argument, were pretty useless. They didnt give us enough to actually work with.

[Bicyclerider]

RE. "H&V Part 2" #57045: I'm not going to argue with anyone's second guessing of Brian but if you accept a 2 sided H&V single, as per Vosse and Britz, how much more evidence do we need that H&V Part 2 #57045 "Side 2" was for that side 2 of H&V than a new master number with a separate H&V title of it's own marked as "Side 2" ?  It was marked as "Side 2" right? Is my memory playing tricks on me?

What was the master number for the side 2 if not #57045?

GV may have had multiple master numbers but they were all for the same title and no one has suggested that GV was to be a 2 sided single. #57020 was for the title H&V and #57045 was for the title H&V Part 2. So that and #57045 is marked as for a Side 2 are differences with GV. 

People heard this 2 sided version back in the day as I understand it. Someone on this board has heard it I believe. But no one seems to have a description. Bruce has claimed he has a copy of the recording, right? Unless it really is in a time capsule in a cornerstone in Hawaii or whatever, I wonder why it wasn't in TSS?

No one has specifically said they heard the two sided single, they have said Brian planned and was recording a two sided single.  Chuck Britz said both sides were completed and mixed, which means he must have heard both sides if he was involved in mixing Part 2 but he never described them.  From the tape evidence it appears no second side mix was in fact completed but if you listen to the test mixes on TSS a there is a mix of the "Part 2, revised"sections with the Animals/Swedish Frog section edited out.  Perhaps that's what Britz is referring to, but it's not a finished mix.  And if you are continuing to dogmatically assert that the master numbers means something, well those were recorded under the 020 "A side" number so that rules it out for the Bside according to your criteria.

The ONLY tape marked side 2 on the box is the instrumental version of what became the Heroes single chorus, and that was also marked as "Heroes Bridge with low spooky strings and percussion." 

[Bicyclerider]

I would add people (journalists) have claimed to have heard five to six minute versions of Heroes, as late as June 67 (LLVS), but no descriptions - you could suggest that such a mix might have been split between  two sides yet the journalists (nor Mike playing the tape)  don't mention anything about a 2 sided single at this point.

[guitarfool2002]

Vosse may have explained what Brian had in mind for Workshop (IWBA/FNB), OMP <with Sunshine Fade later used for the cantina Heroes) and Barnyard early on in the recording process, and it kind of makes sense - but we have two fades, Barnyard and Sunshine in one song, really three with Friday Night, so it's hard to understand how they would fit together.  And if there is a Barnyard suite, why isn't it on the list of tracks in Dember?  As someone pointed out, IIGS aand Barnyard are closely linked and I suspect they came out of Heroes together - so if there is still a Barnyard suite post the track list, it would have to be the IIGS track listing.  Putting the pieces together is still problematic.

Another possible piece of a Barnyard/Great Shape suite - Do A Lot, recorded Jan 3 at a Heroes session.

I agree with this post completely.

It is possible "Heroes" became the catch-all for all these fragments that seem to be stray. Put it this way, of all the Smile tracks, all of the stray fragments with odd or unrelated names (Soul Made Beautiful, etc), is it more than coincidence that almost all of them can be shoehorned into a "Heroes" box of some kind? When Brian got these ideas, when he put these fragments on tape, they got put into Heroes, labeled as parts of Heroes.

There are also more test edits, some very rough that sound like Brian did them himself by stopping and starting a tape recorder rather than doing actual razorblade tape edits, under the Heroes name than any other known track from Smile. Second place would be Vegetables with similar test edits from the period.

It might go to show that in the bigger picture, he needed a single that was to be similar in construction to Good Vibrations, and he had reel after reel of sections to work with. It was in a state of flux as to sequencing and order. Then Vegetables was announced as the single to replace Heroes which he wasn't pleased with, and coincidentally that had a number of test edits done with the sequencing and order too.

And the only hard evidence we have unless an acetate or undiscovered tape surfaces is Chuck Britz who actually did the mixdown and editing work and Michael Vosse who was there hearing all of this stuff saying there was to be a two-sided Heroes single, and via Chuck's so-called "Cantina" mixdown we know what that was at least one point in time. Everything else is trying to make or prove points without any actual hard evidence or even memories of those who were there to back it up.