Summer in Paradise Recalled

[guitarfool2002]

You're saying the same thing about fans who don't like SIP! They're just out to bash Mike, so what version of your logic are you going to apply? It either applies across the spectrum or it's flawed from the get-go. If fans posting opinions here about SIP are out to humiliate Mike as part of a campaign, then fans posting similar opinions about Brian's album are out to humiliate Brian as part of a campaign. That's what you're saying.

[KDS]

And my opinion is that the argument would be valid if those fans said that's their reason, but to make a general statement that the reason why the SIP album flopped and is considered the worst recorded product to ever carry the Beach Boys name smacks of trying to soften the impact a failure like this might have on the "legacy" of either the band or individual members.

Try the blind test, like the Pepsi Challenge. Show someone who wouldn't know or wouldn't care who is or isn't involved from the band the Baywatch video posted above, maybe play a few cuts from the album (US or UK mix, whatever) for them, and gauge their reactions. I think the results may be pretty obvious to predict, and it won't have much to do with Brian Wilson's involvement.

I agree.

But I think Mike's Beard made my point better than I did, saying that some Brian fans will rate SIP as worst album ever made and a testament to the failure of Mike Love.

After all, the Beach Boys put out a few duds when Brian was involved with the group. 

[guitarfool2002]

And my opinion is that the argument would be valid if those fans said that's their reason, but to make a general statement that the reason why the SIP album flopped and is considered the worst recorded product to ever carry the Beach Boys name smacks of trying to soften the impact a failure like this might have on the "legacy" of either the band or individual members.

Try the blind test, like the Pepsi Challenge. Show someone who wouldn't know or wouldn't care who is or isn't involved from the band the Baywatch video posted above, maybe play a few cuts from the album (US or UK mix, whatever) for them, and gauge their reactions. I think the results may be pretty obvious to predict, and it won't have much to do with Brian Wilson's involvement.

I agree.

But I think Mike's Beard made my point better than I did, saying that some Brian fans will rate SIP as worst album ever made and a testament to the failure of Mike Love.

After all, the Beach Boys put out a few duds when Brian was involved with the group. 

And so what? Find me a band or an artist that has a 100% pure track record of having slam-bang, corking good songs with no clunkers to speak of in a 5-decade long career. That's life, not everything is "great", right?

So what do *you* think about fans who declared openly on this and other boards that the latest Brian Wilson album was "unlistenable", "horrible", whatever the adjectives? Would you be willing to step up and apply the same logic to explain some of that hyperbole and say maybe those fans were trying to make NPP a testament to what they'd want to portray as failure of Brian Wilson? It's the same formula, if it plugs in and works for SIP and Mike then surely it applies to NPP and Brian as well.

Does it?

[Mike's Beard]

You're saying the same thing about fans who don't like SIP! They're just out to bash Mike, so what version of your logic are you going to apply? It either applies across the spectrum or it's flawed from the get-go. If fans posting opinions here about SIP are out to humiliate Mike as part of a campaign, then fans posting similar opinions about Brian's album are out to humiliate Brian as part of a campaign. That's what you're saying.

Never said people can't not like SIP, I'm not exactly a gushing fan of it myself. But there are times when it's criticism reads a tad suspect. In all your years as a fan, with all the dreck that is posted on sites such as youtube, you honestly don't think that there are times when a certain 'type' of Brian fan ramps up their dislike of SIP to the extreme in a misguided defense of their idol?

[Mike's Beard]

And my opinion is that the argument would be valid if those fans said that's their reason, but to make a general statement that the reason why the SIP album flopped and is considered the worst recorded product to ever carry the Beach Boys name smacks of trying to soften the impact a failure like this might have on the "legacy" of either the band or individual members.

Try the blind test, like the Pepsi Challenge. Show someone who wouldn't know or wouldn't care who is or isn't involved from the band the Baywatch video posted above, maybe play a few cuts from the album (US or UK mix, whatever) for them, and gauge their reactions. I think the results may be pretty obvious to predict, and it won't have much to do with Brian Wilson's involvement.

I agree.

But I think Mike's Beard made my point better than I did, saying that some Brian fans will rate SIP as worst album ever made and a testament to the failure of Mike Love.

After all, the Beach Boys put out a few duds when Brian was involved with the group. 

And so what? Find me a band or an artist that has a 100% pure track record of having slam-bang, corking good songs with no clunkers to speak of in a 5-decade long career. That's life, not everything is "great", right?

So what do *you* think about fans who declared openly on this and other boards that the latest Brian Wilson album was "unlistenable", "horrible", whatever the adjectives? Would you be willing to step up and apply the same logic to explain some of that hyperbole and say maybe those fans were trying to make NPP a testament to what they'd want to portray as failure of Brian Wilson? It's the same formula, if it plugs in and works for SIP and Mike then surely it applies to NPP and Brian as well.

Does it?

There's not any reason though for people not to like Brian's new stuff, unless of course it is actually sh*t. Do you honestly think anyone would not be delighted for Brian to regain his 1963-73 genius peak?

[guitarfool2002]

OK, we'll plug that logic into the formula. You don't think there are fans who would have liked to see a new Beach Boys album at the time SIP was released regain the magic of the Beach Boys' earlier albums, the 63-73 "classics"? Instead they got SIP. But according to your previous statements, the rejection of that album and criticisms had more to do with wanting to bash Mike Love, never mind the fact that you had SIP stocked in the same record shops next to one of the finest catalogs of albums from the 60's, all with the name "The Beach Boys" on their covers. But it's still all about bashing Mike?

Maybe fans would have wanted (or expected) a Beach Boys album to be of a certain quality and having a certain sound that SIP sorely lacked, whether Mike or Brian or whoever else was listed in the credits.

[drbeachboy]

Well, I hear Let It Be as bringing the Beatles to a close, Yes, I know it was recorded before Abby Road, and yes I know the Beach Boys can't touch the Beatles as a class act, but the song does, in its way, pass the torch.

Cannot understand the bitter denunciations of this album.

While I'm not a fan of the SIP record by any means, one of the big reasons for the hate that this album gets is because Brian Wilson is not on it and had nothing to do with it.  Same reason many hate Kokomo.  Same reason many will not go see the touring version of The Beach Boys.  

1000% agree with everything you just typed.

So you're all saying that a fan not liking the SIP album wouldn't have more to do with the fact that they might think the production is weak, the songs and songwriting is weak, and the whole project overall seemed to miss the mark by a few million miles?

Ahh, but it's all because Brian Wilson isn't on the album, though...right? That's a pretty bold statement to make, not to mention "explaining" why fans don't like it and ignoring the fact they might really, really think it sounds like doggie doo whether Brian Wilson or the King of Siam were involved.

In here, if you would ask or even read all the stuff over the years you will find most people in this forum that don't like SIP, don"t like it because Brian isn't on it, first and foremost. Also, not all of the songwriting is bad, at least in my opinion, it isn't. I will agree with your production assessment, but there are a few people here who don't even mind that. We're all entitled to like what we want. And your statement that it is "doggie doo" is just as bold to my senses as having no Brian Wilson on it is to you. Singing-wise it doesn't bother me a bit that Brian isn't on it, but songwriting-wise, it could have been so much better with him than what we got without him.

[Mike's Beard]

OK, we'll plug that logic into the formula. You don't think there are fans who would have liked to see a new Beach Boys album at the time SIP was released regain the magic of the Beach Boys' earlier albums, the 63-73 "classics"? Instead they got SIP. But according to your previous statements, the rejection of that album and criticisms had more to do with wanting to bash Mike Love, never mind the fact that you had SIP stocked in the same record shops next to one of the finest catalogs of albums from the 60's, all with the name "The Beach Boys" on their covers. But it's still all about bashing Mike?

Maybe fans would have wanted (or expected) a Beach Boys album to be of a certain quality and having a certain sound that SIP sorely lacked, whether Mike or Brian or whoever else was listed in the credits.

I don't think anybody in their right mind was expecting another Pet Sounds quality record from the guys by 1992.

[guitarfool2002]

Well, I hear Let It Be as bringing the Beatles to a close, Yes, I know it was recorded before Abby Road, and yes I know the Beach Boys can't touch the Beatles as a class act, but the song does, in its way, pass the torch.

Cannot understand the bitter denunciations of this album.

While I'm not a fan of the SIP record by any means, one of the big reasons for the hate that this album gets is because Brian Wilson is not on it and had nothing to do with it.  Same reason many hate Kokomo.  Same reason many will not go see the touring version of The Beach Boys.  

1000% agree with everything you just typed.

So you're all saying that a fan not liking the SIP album wouldn't have more to do with the fact that they might think the production is weak, the songs and songwriting is weak, and the whole project overall seemed to miss the mark by a few million miles?

Ahh, but it's all because Brian Wilson isn't on the album, though...right? That's a pretty bold statement to make, not to mention "explaining" why fans don't like it and ignoring the fact they might really, really think it sounds like doggie doo whether Brian Wilson or the King of Siam were involved.

In here, if you would ask or even read all the stuff over the years you will find most people in this forum that don't like SIP, don"t like it because Brian isn't on it, first and foremost. Also, not all of the songwriting is bad, at least in my opinion, it isn't. I will agree with your production assessment, but there are a few people here who don't even mind that. We're all entitled to like what we want. And your statement that it is "doggie doo" is just as bold to my senses as having no Brian Wilson on it is to you. Singing-wise it doesn't bother me a bit that Brian isn't on it, but songwriting-wise, it could have been so much better with him than what we got without him.

Then there is a justification for those who would suggest they know the reasons why someone really dislikes an album like SIP and that can be pinpointed to "Brian isn't on it" and taken further to imply they're out to bash Mike? Then where does that leave those who described Brian's new album as "unlistenable"? Using this logic, they're obviously saying that about NPP as much to bash Brian as it is expressing an opinion, and behind the comments like those "unlistenable" type opinions is the implication that they probably don't like it because Mike and Bruce aren't on the album. It's the same formula, we're just plugging in different names. If it's valid, then it should work for every variable.

Right? Some of those fans who didn't like NPP were doing so because first and foremost, Mike and Bruce were not on it and the same songs were not on a "Beach Boys" album, and among them they're out to "bash" Brian because of it. That's the logic, it would seem. is that valid?

[KDS]

And my opinion is that the argument would be valid if those fans said that's their reason, but to make a general statement that the reason why the SIP album flopped and is considered the worst recorded product to ever carry the Beach Boys name smacks of trying to soften the impact a failure like this might have on the "legacy" of either the band or individual members.

Try the blind test, like the Pepsi Challenge. Show someone who wouldn't know or wouldn't care who is or isn't involved from the band the Baywatch video posted above, maybe play a few cuts from the album (US or UK mix, whatever) for them, and gauge their reactions. I think the results may be pretty obvious to predict, and it won't have much to do with Brian Wilson's involvement.

I agree.

But I think Mike's Beard made my point better than I did, saying that some Brian fans will rate SIP as worst album ever made and a testament to the failure of Mike Love.

After all, the Beach Boys put out a few duds when Brian was involved with the group.  

And so what? Find me a band or an artist that has a 100% pure track record of having slam-bang, corking good songs with no clunkers to speak of in a 5-decade long career. That's life, not everything is "great", right?

So what do *you* think about fans who declared openly on this and other boards that the latest Brian Wilson album was "unlistenable", "horrible", whatever the adjectives? Would you be willing to step up and apply the same logic to explain some of that hyperbole and say maybe those fans were trying to make NPP a testament to what they'd want to portray as failure of Brian Wilson? It's the same formula, if it plugs in and works for SIP and Mike then surely it applies to NPP and Brian as well.

Does it?

I don't have the time to search this forum for specific posts, but I've seen it written here, and other forums, that fans openly expressed their dislike for Kokomo, SIP, and the current version of The Beach Boys because of the absence of Brian Wilson.  Not because Summer of Love is an awful attempt at rap.  Not because Kokomo is a cheesy Buffett-esque song.  Not because they don't care for Scott Totten's guitar playing.  But because Brian Wilson wasn't there.  I've seen it written, multiple times.  And when these fans criticize the record, they don't usually criticize Carl, or Bruce, or Al.  It's always Mike (and sometimes John Stamos). 

If any Brian Wilson fan thinks No Pier Pressure is unlistenable, I think that's their opinion.  But I haven't seen anyone post that they don't like NPP because they don't like Brian Wilson.  Not once.  They don't like the slickness, or the guest stars, or the adult contemporary feel, etc etc.  

I'm just summarizing what I've seen on this and other forums.  That's all.  

[guitarfool2002]

OK, we'll plug that logic into the formula. You don't think there are fans who would have liked to see a new Beach Boys album at the time SIP was released regain the magic of the Beach Boys' earlier albums, the 63-73 "classics"? Instead they got SIP. But according to your previous statements, the rejection of that album and criticisms had more to do with wanting to bash Mike Love, never mind the fact that you had SIP stocked in the same record shops next to one of the finest catalogs of albums from the 60's, all with the name "The Beach Boys" on their covers. But it's still all about bashing Mike?

Maybe fans would have wanted (or expected) a Beach Boys album to be of a certain quality and having a certain sound that SIP sorely lacked, whether Mike or Brian or whoever else was listed in the credits.

I don't think anybody in their right mind was expecting another Pet Sounds quality record from the guys by 1992.

I doubt they were either. But having experienced it firsthand as a Beach Boys fan like everyone else when SIP hit the stores, I and I'm sure many others were expecting something that sounded at least close to what the Beach Boys sounded like and why we all got to be such devoted fans. Quite frankly, speaking for me and me only, hearing SIP sounded like a simultaneous kick in the ass, punch in the gut, and a Moe Howard style eye poke because it was really, really jarring to hear those sounds labeled as "The Beach Boys". And SIP just brought all of the bad stuff together in one place which no previous album had done, no matter how questionable. It wasn't the Beach Boys.

Again, just play it for "outsiders" who have no deep investment into the fandom of the band, and see what they think.

[Mike's Beard]

Well, I hear Let It Be as bringing the Beatles to a close, Yes, I know it was recorded before Abby Road, and yes I know the Beach Boys can't touch the Beatles as a class act, but the song does, in its way, pass the torch.

Cannot understand the bitter denunciations of this album.

While I'm not a fan of the SIP record by any means, one of the big reasons for the hate that this album gets is because Brian Wilson is not on it and had nothing to do with it.  Same reason many hate Kokomo.  Same reason many will not go see the touring version of The Beach Boys.  

1000% agree with everything you just typed.

So you're all saying that a fan not liking the SIP album wouldn't have more to do with the fact that they might think the production is weak, the songs and songwriting is weak, and the whole project overall seemed to miss the mark by a few million miles?

Ahh, but it's all because Brian Wilson isn't on the album, though...right? That's a pretty bold statement to make, not to mention "explaining" why fans don't like it and ignoring the fact they might really, really think it sounds like doggie doo whether Brian Wilson or the King of Siam were involved.

In here, if you would ask or even read all the stuff over the years you will find most people in this forum that don't like SIP, don"t like it because Brian isn't on it, first and foremost. Also, not all of the songwriting is bad, at least in my opinion, it isn't. I will agree with your production assessment, but there are a few people here who don't even mind that. We're all entitled to like what we want. And your statement that it is "doggie doo" is just as bold to my senses as having no Brian Wilson on it is to you. Singing-wise it doesn't bother me a bit that Brian isn't on it, but songwriting-wise, it could have been so much better with him than what we got without him.

Then there is a justification for those who would suggest they know the reasons why someone really dislikes an album like SIP and that can be pinpointed to "Brian isn't on it" and taken further to imply they're out to bash Mike? Then where does that leave those who described Brian's new album as "unlistenable"? Using this logic, they're obviously saying that about NPP as much to bash Brian as it is expressing an opinion, and behind the comments like those "unlistenable" type opinions is the implication that they probably don't like it because Mike and Bruce aren't on the album. It's the same formula, we're just plugging in different names. If it's valid, then it should work for every variable.

Right? Some of those fans who didn't like NPP were doing so because first and foremost, Mike and Bruce were not on it and the same songs were not on a "Beach Boys" album, and among them they're out to "bash" Brian because of it. That's the logic, it would seem. is that valid?

If you can find quotes of fans referring to Brian as a talentless, sleazy piece of sh*t who rode on the coattails of others, then absolutely. Until then...............  

[guitarfool2002]

Well, I hear Let It Be as bringing the Beatles to a close, Yes, I know it was recorded before Abby Road, and yes I know the Beach Boys can't touch the Beatles as a class act, but the song does, in its way, pass the torch.

Cannot understand the bitter denunciations of this album.

While I'm not a fan of the SIP record by any means, one of the big reasons for the hate that this album gets is because Brian Wilson is not on it and had nothing to do with it.  Same reason many hate Kokomo.  Same reason many will not go see the touring version of The Beach Boys.  

1000% agree with everything you just typed.

So you're all saying that a fan not liking the SIP album wouldn't have more to do with the fact that they might think the production is weak, the songs and songwriting is weak, and the whole project overall seemed to miss the mark by a few million miles?

Ahh, but it's all because Brian Wilson isn't on the album, though...right? That's a pretty bold statement to make, not to mention "explaining" why fans don't like it and ignoring the fact they might really, really think it sounds like doggie doo whether Brian Wilson or the King of Siam were involved.

In here, if you would ask or even read all the stuff over the years you will find most people in this forum that don't like SIP, don"t like it because Brian isn't on it, first and foremost. Also, not all of the songwriting is bad, at least in my opinion, it isn't. I will agree with your production assessment, but there are a few people here who don't even mind that. We're all entitled to like what we want. And your statement that it is "doggie doo" is just as bold to my senses as having no Brian Wilson on it is to you. Singing-wise it doesn't bother me a bit that Brian isn't on it, but songwriting-wise, it could have been so much better with him than what we got without him.

Then there is a justification for those who would suggest they know the reasons why someone really dislikes an album like SIP and that can be pinpointed to "Brian isn't on it" and taken further to imply they're out to bash Mike? Then where does that leave those who described Brian's new album as "unlistenable"? Using this logic, they're obviously saying that about NPP as much to bash Brian as it is expressing an opinion, and behind the comments like those "unlistenable" type opinions is the implication that they probably don't like it because Mike and Bruce aren't on the album. It's the same formula, we're just plugging in different names. If it's valid, then it should work for every variable.

Right? Some of those fans who didn't like NPP were doing so because first and foremost, Mike and Bruce were not on it and the same songs were not on a "Beach Boys" album, and among them they're out to "bash" Brian because of it. That's the logic, it would seem. is that valid?

If you can find quotes of fans referring to Brian as a talentless, sleazy piece of sh*t who rode on the coattails of others, then absolutely. Until then...............  

Now it's onto the straw-man portion of the show. Totally irrelevant. Or maybe to play along, let's consider some of those who have said Brian sat back and loafed for a few decades and just collected the money while Mike did all the "heavy lifting" on the road...would those comments also imply that a negative review of NPP was more about "bashing" Brian than it would be an actual opinion about the music on the album?

See, it works many ways. If something is attempted to be used as a formula, then it either works or doesn't work no matter what variables are run through it.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Another thread bites the dust

[filledeplage]

I think the issue with SIP is more with the quality of songs rather than the production. 

I don't think there's a producer alive or dead that could make Summer of Love into something good. 

SIP came too late in the Baywatch phenomenon, just as HCTN came with a disco version. It would be hard to convince me that The Bee Gees were more talented songwriters than the Boys.  Had they jumped into disco early, it might have been a niche resurrgence in a new area, but they had their own thing going with the Spirit of America phenomenon in the bicentennial of the U.S. circa 1975.

SIP also has a now-dated "electro-tech" feel that was perhaps construed as cutting edge, at that time. It isn't bad music but like everything else is a function of timing in the marketplace. I bought it and quite enjoyed it for the vocals. And it is the last of Carl's vocals. That, alone makes it a little treasure for me.  

[drbeachboy]

My biggest issue with Brian's new album is also with Production. I love most of the songs and love most of the singing. I like  Runaway Dancer as a song, but I do not care much for the arrangement. I do think it would have made a great Beach Boys album, but that is just from hearing what Al, Blondie and David added to it. You can't help making that connection. Again, what I dislike it about has nothing to do with Mike & Bruce, but more from what Brian did production-wise. It sounds too Joe Thomas-y, and that is also my only dislikes with TWGMTR and C50 Live. As to your first sentence, there is nothing to be inferred if you read what is posted in here, the very vocal anti-Mike faction make it abundantly clear that with no Brian, the album must then be sh*t. To my ears that just isn't so.

[Bean Bag]

I like salad.  But I don't like the salad without salad dressing.  Therefore I don't like salad?  Is that what's going on here?   

[guitarfool2002]

And my opinion is that the argument would be valid if those fans said that's their reason, but to make a general statement that the reason why the SIP album flopped and is considered the worst recorded product to ever carry the Beach Boys name smacks of trying to soften the impact a failure like this might have on the "legacy" of either the band or individual members.

Try the blind test, like the Pepsi Challenge. Show someone who wouldn't know or wouldn't care who is or isn't involved from the band the Baywatch video posted above, maybe play a few cuts from the album (US or UK mix, whatever) for them, and gauge their reactions. I think the results may be pretty obvious to predict, and it won't have much to do with Brian Wilson's involvement.

I agree.

But I think Mike's Beard made my point better than I did, saying that some Brian fans will rate SIP as worst album ever made and a testament to the failure of Mike Love.

After all, the Beach Boys put out a few duds when Brian was involved with the group.  

And so what? Find me a band or an artist that has a 100% pure track record of having slam-bang, corking good songs with no clunkers to speak of in a 5-decade long career. That's life, not everything is "great", right?

So what do *you* think about fans who declared openly on this and other boards that the latest Brian Wilson album was "unlistenable", "horrible", whatever the adjectives? Would you be willing to step up and apply the same logic to explain some of that hyperbole and say maybe those fans were trying to make NPP a testament to what they'd want to portray as failure of Brian Wilson? It's the same formula, if it plugs in and works for SIP and Mike then surely it applies to NPP and Brian as well.

Does it?

I don't have the time to search this forum for specific posts, but I've seen it written here, and other forums, that fans openly expressed their dislike for Kokomo, SIP, and the current version of The Beach Boys because of the absence of Brian Wilson.  Not because Summer of Love is an awful attempt at rap.  Not because Kokomo is a cheesy Buffett-esque song.  Not because they don't care for Scott Totten's guitar playing.  But because Brian Wilson wasn't there.  I've seen it written, multiple times.  And when these fans criticize the record, they don't usually criticize Carl, or Bruce, or Al.  It's always Mike (and sometimes John Stamos). 

If any Brian Wilson fan thinks No Pier Pressure is unlistenable, I think that's their opinion.  But I haven't seen anyone post that they don't like NPP because they don't like Brian Wilson.  Not once.  They don't like the slickness, or the guest stars, or the adult contemporary feel, etc etc.  

I'm just summarizing what I've seen on this and other forums.  That's all.  

And I'm trying to figure out the logic in all of this. Saying NPP is unlistenable is a fan's opinion, but saying the same about SIP comes from an inherent desire to either bash or humiliate Mike Love? Are there different standards to apply when validating or dismissing fan opinions that change based on which band member's name is on the work? It looks like there is, and I don't buy it for a second.

Summing it up, based on this logic: Fans bashing SIP are doing it because they don't like Mike, and it's more about bashing Mike instead of the SIP album's slickness (synths, sequencing, early digital recording residue, vocal futzing), the guest stars (Stamos), the adult contemporary feel ( or confused mix of 'feels' overall from rap to bubblegum to A.C.). It wasn't about the music mostly, instead it was people out to get Mike.

But fans bashing NPP do it for more "pure" or justifiable reasons? There was nothing else at play there except a genuine desire across the board to express negative opinions based only on the music?

That seems to be the implication, and again I don't buy it. The formula and the template are flawed.

[KDS]

I think you're reading too much into this GF.  You're a mod.  You had to have seen posts like this, I know I have:

1.  SIP is a steaming pile.  Brian's not on it, and Mike proves himself to be a sleaze.

2.  Kokomo is terrible.  The Spanish version with Brian is much better.  

3.  There's no way I'm paying to see The Beach Boys.  No Brian.  No Wilsons.  No Beach Boys.  

This forum has been littered with these posts (especially #3).  

Quite frankly, I'm not sure why my observation that some fans chose to dismiss SIP purely for the fact that BW isn't on it has gotten you so fired up.

[filledeplage]

I like salad.  But I don't like the salad without salad dressing.  Therefore I don't like salad?  Is that what's going on here?   

And, I think you are, bar none, the funniest poster on this forum!

It's Friday, Bean Bag!

One for you!   

[Cam Mott]

I think it is wrong to hold Brian accountable to Joe Thomas production and Mike accountable for Terry Melcher production.

[Mike's Beard]

Well, I hear Let It Be as bringing the Beatles to a close, Yes, I know it was recorded before Abby Road, and yes I know the Beach Boys can't touch the Beatles as a class act, but the song does, in its way, pass the torch.

Cannot understand the bitter denunciations of this album.

While I'm not a fan of the SIP record by any means, one of the big reasons for the hate that this album gets is because Brian Wilson is not on it and had nothing to do with it.  Same reason many hate Kokomo.  Same reason many will not go see the touring version of The Beach Boys.  

1000% agree with everything you just typed.

So you're all saying that a fan not liking the SIP album wouldn't have more to do with the fact that they might think the production is weak, the songs and songwriting is weak, and the whole project overall seemed to miss the mark by a few million miles?

Ahh, but it's all because Brian Wilson isn't on the album, though...right? That's a pretty bold statement to make, not to mention "explaining" why fans don't like it and ignoring the fact they might really, really think it sounds like doggie doo whether Brian Wilson or the King of Siam were involved.

In here, if you would ask or even read all the stuff over the years you will find most people in this forum that don't like SIP, don"t like it because Brian isn't on it, first and foremost. Also, not all of the songwriting is bad, at least in my opinion, it isn't. I will agree with your production assessment, but there are a few people here who don't even mind that. We're all entitled to like what we want. And your statement that it is "doggie doo" is just as bold to my senses as having no Brian Wilson on it is to you. Singing-wise it doesn't bother me a bit that Brian isn't on it, but songwriting-wise, it could have been so much better with him than what we got without him.

Then there is a justification for those who would suggest they know the reasons why someone really dislikes an album like SIP and that can be pinpointed to "Brian isn't on it" and taken further to imply they're out to bash Mike? Then where does that leave those who described Brian's new album as "unlistenable"? Using this logic, they're obviously saying that about NPP as much to bash Brian as it is expressing an opinion, and behind the comments like those "unlistenable" type opinions is the implication that they probably don't like it because Mike and Bruce aren't on the album. It's the same formula, we're just plugging in different names. If it's valid, then it should work for every variable.

Right? Some of those fans who didn't like NPP were doing so because first and foremost, Mike and Bruce were not on it and the same songs were not on a "Beach Boys" album, and among them they're out to "bash" Brian because of it. That's the logic, it would seem. is that valid?

If you can find quotes of fans referring to Brian as a talentless, sleazy piece of sh*t who rode on the coattails of others, then absolutely. Until then...............  

Now it's onto the straw-man portion of the show. Totally irrelevant. Or maybe to play along, let's consider some of those who have said Brian sat back and loafed for a few decades and just collected the money while Mike did all the "heavy lifting" on the road...would those comments also imply that a negative review of NPP was more about "bashing" Brian than it would be an actual opinion about the music on the album?

See, it works many ways. If something is attempted to be used as a formula, then it either works or doesn't work no matter what variables are run through it.

Of course it's relevant. If people were constantly saying nasty things about Brian as both a person and his place in the history of music then one could argue that it colours how some people may review a release by him. As nobody does, your argument has zero logic.

[Bean Bag]

I like salad.  But I don't like the salad without salad dressing.  Therefore I don't like salad?  Is that what's going on here?   

And, I think you are, bar none, the funniest poster on this forum!

It's Friday, Bean Bag!

One for you!   

[Cam Mott]

I think the issue with SIP is more with the quality of songs rather than the production. 

I don't think there's a producer alive or dead that could make Summer of Love into something good. 

SIP came too late in the Baywatch phenomenon, just as HCTN came with a disco version. It would be hard to convince me that The Bee Gees were more talented songwriters than the Boys.  Had they jumped into disco early, it might have been a niche resurrgence in a new area, but they had their own thing going with the Spirit of America phenomenon in the bicentennial of the U.S. circa 1975.

SIP also has a now-dated "electro-tech" feel that was perhaps construed as cutting edge, at that time. It isn't bad music but like everything else is a function of timing in the marketplace. I bought it and quite enjoyed it for the vocals. And it is the last of Carl's vocals. That, alone makes it a little treasure for me.  

That Baywatch episode was like 3 years after the album came out wasn't it?

[filledeplage]

I like salad.  But I don't like the salad without salad dressing.  Therefore I don't like salad?  Is that what's going on here?   

And, I think you are, bar none, the funniest poster on this forum!

It's Friday, Bean Bag!

One for you!   

What an amateur! We know you wouldn't spill a drop!