Non-Instrumentalist Songwriters

[the captain]

Obviously it comes up from time to time regarding Mike Love on the main forum, though I believe it's been established he can play some rudimentary guitar and/or piano, at least. But I'm listening to a podcast with Nate Ruess in which, while it's focused on the business of the industry, Ruess mentioned that he doesn't play any instruments, but just writes songs more or less in his head and then works with others to get the ideas out. I believe it came out in the press for her album last year that Lana Del Rey works similarly, as did Desmond Child (who wrote quite a few hits in the '80s for Bon Jovi and such acts).

Are there other prominent examples of people who are not just non-instrumentalist singers--which seems reasonable enough--but actually songwriters, too? (Beyond just lyricists, I mean.)

[rab2591]

Jim Morrison comes to mind. As I recall before The Doors even formed he could hear music/concerts in his head. He'd write lyrics and sometimes melodies would come to mind. Of course he had great help/ideas from his band.

A side note: the digital age has made it incredibly easier for people to write songs without having to learn an instrument. I have a program that allows you to basically paint a melody, as well as select certain notes to play whatever chords you want, with whatever instrument you want...all with the use of a mouse/trackpad.

[the captain]

A side note: the digital age has made it incredibly easier for people to write songs without having to learn an instrument.

I was just thinking that while posting, as well: it has never been easier to pull off this previously problematic career path.

[rab2591]

Indeed. It makes for a lot of lousy music being released to the world, but it also gives a chance for a promising songwriter the ability to express more clearly what they hear inside of them. It'll be interesting to watch the music landscape over the next 10-20 years for this reason alone.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Carnie and Wendy Wilson.

[the captain]

How do you all view such songwriters?

When I was in college as a music major, the instrumentalists mostly looked down even on vocal performance majors as not being "real" musicians: they "just" sang! We'd chuckle because it seemed as we coasted through theory or sight-singing courses, these singers struck us as illiterate. (Never mind that they could fucking sing well.) To us, it was a lesser craft.

Do you respect a songwriter who plays an instrument--or several--more than one who doesn't? I'll admit, while I don't want to, I think I probably do.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't know if respect is the term I would use, maybe "appreciate their instrumental talent" is more in line for me. Frankly, because I (like you I'm sure) listen to the music for enjoyment first, the question of "did the writer of the song compose it on an instrument?" doesn't come into play often. The only time I do think of the topic is on threads/discussions like these. Seriously.

In line with this thinking, there were a couple of others which came to mind - Michael Jackson, Art Garfunkel, Smokey Robinson, Al Green, Debbie Harry, Frank Sinatra, Madonna - who I was going to list, but knew that somebody would quickly point out that they all did or do play an instrument. Yes, technically they did or do. However, I have to wonder if they wrote their songs using an instrument or did it "the Jim Morrison way".

[the captain]

Frankly, because I (like you I'm sure) listen to the music for enjoyment first, the question of "did the writer of the song compose it on an instrument?" doesn't come into play often. The only time I do think of the topic is on threads/discussions like these. Seriously.

I think that's exactly correct, actually. My reminiscence is of one of those times when such things matter oh so much, with competitive 18-to-22-year-olds vying for spots and (mostly) trying to prove to the objects of their sexual affections that they are indeed really, really impressive (and that guy over there isn't). I feel bad for anyone who, if in daily listening, thinks "well unfortunately this song's a piece of garbage, as the songwriter can't even play piano!"

[JK]

I feel bad for anyone who, if in daily listening, thinks "well unfortunately this song's a piece of garbage, as the songwriter can't even play piano!"

Too true! Indeed, playing piano can be a distinct disadvantage as it inevitably locks you into writing pianistically.

The only great composer (okay, different genre) to my knowledge who couldn't play piano was Hector Berlioz----and goodness me it shows.

[the captain]

I feel bad for anyone who, if in daily listening, thinks "well unfortunately this song's a piece of garbage, as the songwriter can't even play piano!"

Too true! Indeed, playing piano can be a distinct disadvantage as it inevitably locks you into writing pianistically.

The only great composer (okay, different genre) to my knowledge who couldn't play piano was Hector Berlioz----and goodness me it shows.

As for the former, not at all what I meant but certainly true (as would be the same critique of a guitar-playing composer).

But more interesting to me: is that true about Berlioz? I had no idea. My tuition was at least in part wasted, goddamnit. (Even more so when I admit I was about to express astonishment about "Tottentanz" ... before remembering it was Lizst, not Berlioz.)

[JK]

The only great composer (okay, different genre) to my knowledge who couldn't play piano was Hector Berlioz----and goodness me it shows.

But more interesting to me: is that true about Berlioz? I had no idea. My tuition was at least in part wasted, goddamnit. (Even more so when I admit I was about to express astonishment about "Tottentanz" ... before remembering it was Lizst, not Berlioz.)

This is from Berlioz's Memoires (in translation----not by me, I should add):

"I had mastered three majestic, incomparable instruments, the flageolet, the flute and the guitar. Who could fail to recognise in this judicious choice the impulse of nature which was driving me towards the most immense orchestral effects and music on the scale of Michelangelo! The flute, the guitar and the flageolet!… I have never had any other skills as an instrumentalist, though these seem to me respectable enough as it is. But I am not being fair to myself: I could also play the drum.

"My father was against letting me start studying the piano, otherwise I would probably have become a formidable pianist, like countless others. He had absolutely no intention of making an artist of me, and was probably worried that the piano might establish too strong a hold on me and lead me deeper into music than he wished.

 "I have often regretted not being able to play the piano; this skill could be of great use to me in many circumstances. But when I think of the frightening number of trivia that are produced with such ease day-in day-out – disgraceful compositions that would be beyond the reach of their authors if they had to rely on pen and paper and were deprived of their musical kaleidoscope – I have to thank my lucky stars for having been obliged to learn to compose in silence and with complete freedom. This has preserved me from the tyranny of fingering patterns, which are so damaging for creative composition, and from the seduction of commonplaces to which composers are exposed most of the time."

This is a good example of early Berlioz, written, astonishingly, a mere three years after Beethoven's death: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cao6WyF-61s

But i digress... 

[the captain]

Thanks so much. You've taught me something.

[Please delete my account]

Noel Coward springs to mind.

[RangeRoverA1]

Indeed. It makes for a lot of lousy music being released to the world, but it also gives a chance for a promising songwriter the ability to express more clearly what they hear inside of them. It'll be interesting to watch the music landscape over the next 10-20 years for this reason alone.

What other programs you're aware of that "cover all bases"? Except UJAM mentioned in this Ego thread?

[rab2591]

Indeed. It makes for a lot of lousy music being released to the world, but it also gives a chance for a promising songwriter the ability to express more clearly what they hear inside of them. It'll be interesting to watch the music landscape over the next 10-20 years for this reason alone.

What other programs you're aware of that "cover all bases"? Except UJAM mentioned in this Ego thread?

Logic Pro X is what I currently use (http://www.apple.com/logic-pro/). Pretty much does everything and more when it comes to recording and exporting a song. There are 100s of drums, probably thousands of synths, and most likely millions of ways to program these instruments and synths. There are millions of ways to master your song. Effects including reverb, echo, distortion, and hundreds more are possible for every track (with limitless ways to adjust each effect). The recording options are amazing too - you can choose whether you're recording vocals, piano, drums, guitar, even a flute and a pre-arranged track will appear with the best mastering options for those instruments. Well worth the $200.

Garageband is another program that works well, it is fairly cheap (under $20, and possibly free with a new Mac) and incredibly easy to use. It is very much like Logic Pro X only many, many features are missing.

These are all for Mac computers, I'm not sure of any Windows programs that are like this. A lot of others on this board use programs like this for both platforms, hopefully they can weigh in as well.

[JK]

Garageband is another program that works well, it is fairly cheap (under $20, and possibly free with a new Mac) and incredibly easy to use. It is very much like Logic Pro X only many, many features are missing.

I have Garageband----as you say, free with my new Mac----but so far it's all Ancient Greek to me. I may grapple with it yet, if I find myself with a lot of time on my hands.

Needless to say, I'm utterly awed by people who can actually make these things work, incredibly easy to use or not.