Don't F**k With the Formula

[rab2591]

if Mike had doubts about the "new" music around the time of Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations, and the Smile Sessions, on things like alienating the band's fanbase and changing the sound and direction of the music, he had an ally who thought the same way and also wasn't shy about expressing it.

Murry Wilson.

But did he? Could he? How could the vocals have been "that good" if there was a conflict?

So if there was no conflict I'd love to know why 'Hang On To Your Ego' wasn't on Pet Sounds. If there was no conflict I'd love to know why Van Dyke Parks and Mike Love talk about some of the lyrics on Smile being questioned.

Brian was playing with fire on the outer fringes of what the Beach Boys could remotely get away with releasing, imo. Bruce's reaction when he heard 'Good Vibrations' for the first time (paraphrasing) "We'll either go down in flames or this will be a number 1 hit". I would hope that the second most forward thinking member of the band at the time was hesitant about the direction Brian was taking the band...especially since all of their hits, their entire reputation was based on a slew of hits about surfing, cars, and love that had nothing to do with ego death or a line in a William Wordsworth poem.

I'm really not sure about the "f*** with the formula" line - Tony Asher also apparently attests that he heard Mike saying it as well. Who really knows. But like Chocolate Shake Man said, I think given the facts we can all agree there was hesitancy, and opposition from Mike to certain things Brian was doing at the time.

[Empire Of Love]

But regardless of whether or not those exact words were uttered, we can agree that Brian's music from about Pet Sounds forward was met with considerable hostility and opposition and that this has been largely downplayed in the years since, right?

Nope.

About as solid as your other pro-Mike arguments.

EoL

[filledeplage]

But regardless of whether or not those exact words were uttered, we can agree that Brian's music from about Pet Sounds forward was met with considerable hostility and opposition and that this has been largely downplayed in the years since, right?

A listen to vocals on Pet Sounds Sessions tells that the band's vocals were "putting forth best effort" (as the old report cards say) so, where is the next place to look for a source?

The consistent comments made by numerous people who were in a position to know.

Position to know? Or, position to agree on an adopted false narrative, that had taken on a life of it's own?

Well, those two things are not mutually exclusive. But if you have evidence that Brian Wilson, Marilyn Wilson, Al Jardine, Bruce Johnston, Danny Hutton, Tony Asher, David Anderle, Van Dyke Parks, and Derek Taylor conspired to agree on a false narrative, I'd be curious to see it.

Besides, we know for sure that it's not an entirely false narrative since we have key members such as Jardine and Johnston outwardly talking negatively about big Brian projects such as the Breakaway single and the entire Friends album.

OK - I'm trying to consider all the possibilities.  

In Badman's book, page 182,  (which we know is flawed) has an interesting quote...post April 28th in 1967, at Back Bay Theatre show. Boston, MA...

This was in response to the UK release of Then I Kissed Her/Mountain of Love.  "...Mike tells the New Musical Express: 'the record company did not even have the decency to put out one of Brian's compositions.'"

Does that sound like Mike had any problem with Brian's work? Not to me.  Bruce is also quoted..." It's really ridiculous. The record is in no way representative of things we are doing now or were even doing a year ago...I've got some tapes at home of the new tracks on the Smile LP (note, not Smiley) which would blow your mind. All the ideas are new and Brian is coming up with fantastic ideas all the time."

Even the British press was baffled.  Capitol even financed and released a promo clip to accompany the release for the BBC. Then I Kissed Her/Mountain of Love.   At least two years after they were released in the US.

There is more detail on the page.  

Now, who is undermining Brian and the band? This is the handiwork of Capitol.  

[filledeplage]

if Mike had doubts about the "new" music around the time of Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations, and the Smile Sessions, on things like alienating the band's fanbase and changing the sound and direction of the music, he had an ally who thought the same way and also wasn't shy about expressing it.

Murry Wilson.

But did he? Could he? How could the vocals have been "that good" if there was a conflict?

So if there was no conflict I'd love to know why 'Hang On To Your Ego' wasn't on Pet Sounds. If there was no conflict I'd love to know why Van Dyke Parks and Mike Love talk about some of the lyrics on Smile being questioned.

Brian was playing with fire on the outer fringes of what the Beach Boys could remotely get away with releasing, imo. Bruce's reaction when he heard 'Good Vibrations' for the first time (paraphrasing) "We'll either go down in flames or this will be a number 1 hit". I would hope that the second most forward thinking member of the band at the time was hesitant about the direction Brian was taking the band...especially since all of their hits, their entire reputation was based on a slew of hits about surfing, cars, and love that had nothing to do with ego death or a line in a William Wordsworth poem.

I'm really not sure about the "f*** with the formula" line - Tony Asher also apparently attests that he heard Mike saying it as well. Who really knows. But like Chocolate Shake Man said, I think given the facts we can all agree there was hesitancy, and opposition from Mike to certain things Brian was doing at the time.

Johnston was right. It was a gamble. This was 1966. No one could predict if it would fly or fall.

And Winchester Cathedral won best record nudging out GV.  A complete fluke. 1966.

[Empire Of Love]

But regardless of whether or not those exact words were uttered, we can agree that Brian's music from about Pet Sounds forward was met with considerable hostility and opposition and that this has been largely downplayed in the years since, right?

Nope.

In that case, do you think that the comments for the band since, say, 2000, have generally reaffirmed these quotes?

Pet Sounds

Tony Asher: And they didn’t know I was even there. And they’d say things like, I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway. And I thought, why am I sitting here listening to that? I don’t need to.

Al: Mike was very confused by [Pet Sounds]. I wasn’t exactly thrilled with the change, but I grew to appreciate it as soon as we started to work on it. … Mike’s a formula hound – if it doesn’t have a hook in it, if he can’t hear a hook in it, he doesn’t want to know about it.

Brian: Mike said, “Gee, this is too much of a departure.” And I said, but Mike I got to do it this way for just one album. He goes, “All right. One album.”

Good Vibrations

Did everybody support what you were trying to do?
BRIAN: No, not everybody. There was a lot of "oh you can't do this, that's too modern" or "that's going to be too long a record." I said no, it's not going to be too long a record, it's going to be just right.
Who resisted you? Your manager? The record company?
BRIAN: No, people in the group, but I can't tell ya who. We just had resisting ideas. They didn't quite understand what this jumping from studio to studio was all about. And they couldn't conceive of the record as I did. I saw the record as a totality piece.

Smile

Anderle: The Beach Boys as a band were in England at the time, they were having a great time there, throwing The Beatles out of the number one spot. When they got back, and Brian started playing them the music he had done for the Smile album, and they started to question Brian about the lyric content … and suddenly everything that been a year and a half, 2 years of complete positive vibes, now became very negative vibes.

Parks: The friction was so great that, as he was just achieving the apex of his creative arc, he abandoned the project, I think in the interests of…social harmony? And Smile was left unfinished, for that reason.

Anderle: [Smile] wasn’t done mainly because he had to put their voices on it – he had to get them to sing those Van Dyke Parks lyrics, and it wasn’t easy for Carl, and Mike and the boys to sing some of those – strange lyrics.

Parks: I wasn’t close enough to the other guys. I was in a position of defending my lyrics … Mike Love said to me one day: “Explain this: Over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield.” And it was an American Gothic trip that Brian and I were working on. I said, “I don’t know what these lyrics are all about. They’re not important. Throw them away.” And so they did.

Derek Taylor:  "A key factor in the breakdown had to be the Beach Boys themselves, whose stubbornness by this time had seemingly twisted itself into a grim determination to undermine the very foundations of this 'new music' in order to get back to the old accepted, dumb formulas."

Marilyn: I think it was like ‘OK you assholes, you think you can do as good as me or whatever – go ahead, you do it. You think it’s so easy? You do it.” … and I don’t think ever really came back. I don’t think he ever had the need…he was just torn down, he really was. They slowly tore him down. I hate to say it, but they did.

Friends

Bruce: It’s not a bunch of great songs. They’re pretty light. … No, that’s a pretty lightweight album. I mean, I love “Friends.” I love the songs “Friends.” … But the album – I’m surprised it got to 126. Maybe 1026 might be more appropriate.

Breakaway

Al: I was really disappointed and frustrated by how this one ended up. We knew we had 90% of a good record, but typical of his late 60s mentality, Brian underproduced and undersold the ending of the record.

Til I Die

Johnston remembers Brian “playing it for the band and one member of the band didn't understand it and put it down, and Brian just decided not to show it to us for a few months. He just put it away. I mean, he was absolutely crushed. This other person just didn't like it.”


[/quote

But I thought Andrew might have once asked Voyle Giilmore and so the discussion was over?

[Mike's Beard]

There's a rather large gulf between questioning something's commercial viability and outright dissmissing it. If Mike or any of the other guys were so against Brian's material in 66/67, why did they learn their parts and record them? Lots of finger pointing but has anybody ever produced any documented proof of a 'Beach Boys Smile Vocal Session' cancelled because the guys point blank flat out refused to sing?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There's a rather large gulf between questioning something's commercial viability and outright dissmissing it.

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

If Mike or any of the other guys were so against Brian's material in 66/67, why did they learn their parts and record them? Lots of finger pointing but has anybody ever produced any documented proof of a 'Beach Boys Smile Vocal Session' cancelled because the guys point blank flat out refused to sing?

No. We do have audio of Brian during the Smile sessions threatening to cancel if he didn't get cooperation, though.

As for why the band recorded the vocals, you'd have to ask them. Just as you'd have to ask the many actors who perform roles in films and tv shows that they probably don't like very much. Why did Chevy Chase do such a great performance in Community for four seasons when he is on record as not liking the show?

While we're at it, how many non-Brian lead vocals do we have from the Smile era? And how many songs do we have without lead vocals?

[filledeplage]

There's a rather large gulf between questioning something's commercial viability and outright dissmissing it.

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

If Mike or any of the other guys were so against Brian's material in 66/67, why did they learn their parts and record them? Lots of finger pointing but has anybody ever produced any documented proof of a 'Beach Boys Smile Vocal Session' cancelled because the guys point blank flat out refused to sing?

No. We do have audio of Brian during the Smile sessions threatening to cancel if he didn't get cooperation, though.

And we have Brian's quotes on shelving it. And starting from scratch with Smiley with the band. 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There's a rather large gulf between questioning something's commercial viability and outright dissmissing it.

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

If Mike or any of the other guys were so against Brian's material in 66/67, why did they learn their parts and record them? Lots of finger pointing but has anybody ever produced any documented proof of a 'Beach Boys Smile Vocal Session' cancelled because the guys point blank flat out refused to sing?

No. We do have audio of Brian during the Smile sessions threatening to cancel if he didn't get cooperation, though.

And we have Brian's quotes on shelving it. And starting from scratch with Smiley with the band. 

I'm not sure I see the relevance of that. Can you elaborate?

[rab2591]

If Mike or any of the other guys were so against Brian's material in 66/67, why did they learn their parts and record them?

Yet again, 'Hang On To Your Ego' is a perfect example.

Al Jardine: "Mike just didn't feel it was something that people could to relate to, so he pretty much said "Hey Brian, I'm not gonna sing on this more than likely"...if the lead singer don't wanna sing it I guess you have to rewrite the lyrics."
Bruce Johnston: "I think Mike didn't like the idea that in the drug era, as you were on one of those acid journeys...and you were supposed to hang on to your ego, well in Mike's mind the Beach Boys were not about drugs and was just adamantly against the lyric direction."
Al Jardine specifically recalls Brian saying "Forget it. I'm changing the lyrics. There's too much controversy."

So it appears Mike wasn't always up for learning his parts.

[filledeplage]

There's a rather large gulf between questioning something's commercial viability and outright dissmissing it.

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

If Mike or any of the other guys were so against Brian's material in 66/67, why did they learn their parts and record them? Lots of finger pointing but has anybody ever produced any documented proof of a 'Beach Boys Smile Vocal Session' cancelled because the guys point blank flat out refused to sing?

No. We do have audio of Brian during the Smile sessions threatening to cancel if he didn't get cooperation, though.

And we have Brian's quotes on shelving it. And starting from scratch with Smiley with the band. 

I'm not sure I see the relevance of that. Can you elaborate?

Just bumped the quoted sections in the Smiley Likely commercial performance (or lack of ) in 1967?

[Mike's Beard]

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

Those are both fairly mild statements. With all the Surf and Hot Rod knockoff material Bruce helped out on in the 60s, I'm sure there are many things he played on that he didn't think was all that great. Still I have no doubt he gave it his all every time.

As for why the band recorded the vocals, you'd have to ask them. Just as you'd have to ask the many actors who perform roles in films and tv shows that they probably don't like very much. Why did Chevy Chase do such a great performance in Community for four seasons when he is on record as not liking the show?

I'm guessing in Chevy's case, it was because he needed the money.

[Mike's Beard]

If Mike or any of the other guys were so against Brian's material in 66/67, why did they learn their parts and record them?

Yet again, 'Hang On To Your Ego' is a perfect example.

Al Jardine: "Mike just didn't feel it was something that people could to relate to, so he pretty much said "Hey Brian, I'm not gonna sing on this more than likely"...if the lead singer don't wanna sing it I guess you have to rewrite the lyrics."
Bruce Johnston: "I think Mike didn't like the idea that in the drug era, as you were on one of those acid journeys...and you were supposed to hang on to your ego, well in Mike's mind the Beach Boys were not about drugs and was just adamantly against the lyric direction."
Al Jardine specifically recalls Brian saying "Forget it. I'm changing the lyrics. There's too much controversy."

So it appears Mike wasn't always up for learning his parts.

But there is none of that happening for the Smile material, if not there'd be Wilson/Love credits. We do have Mike singing the lyrics he didn't like on the finished recording(s).
Also the lyrics for Hang on to Your Ego sucked the hairy pipe, wouldn't you agree?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

Those are both fairly mild statements. With all the Surf and Hot Rod knockoff material Bruce helped out on in the 60s, I'm sure there are many things he played on that he didn't think was all that great. Still I have no doubt he gave it his all every time.

Well, the second one is mild. I'm not sure if I would appreciate someone referring to the work I worked hard on as "stupid" though. And furthermore, what's important is the consistency. One or two "mild statements" can build up.

I'm guessing in Chevy's case, it was because he needed the money.

And I'm sure that the band considered themselves to be financially dependent on Brian's music in 1966 too.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There's a rather large gulf between questioning something's commercial viability and outright dissmissing it.

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

If Mike or any of the other guys were so against Brian's material in 66/67, why did they learn their parts and record them? Lots of finger pointing but has anybody ever produced any documented proof of a 'Beach Boys Smile Vocal Session' cancelled because the guys point blank flat out refused to sing?

No. We do have audio of Brian during the Smile sessions threatening to cancel if he didn't get cooperation, though.

And we have Brian's quotes on shelving it. And starting from scratch with Smiley with the band. 

I'm not sure I see the relevance of that. Can you elaborate?

Just bumped the quoted sections in the Smiley Likely commercial performance (or lack of ) in 1967?

I read them and was already aware of them but I'm afraid I still don't understand the relevance. I'm just a bit dim -- can you explain it?

[guitarfool2002]

Read the Paul Williams interview(s) with David Anderle from 1967.

[Empire Of Love]

There's a rather large gulf between questioning something's commercial viability and outright dissmissing it. If Mike or any of the other guys were so against Brian's material in 66/67, why did they learn their parts and record them? Lots of finger pointing but has anybody ever produced any documented proof of a 'Beach Boys Smile Vocal Session' cancelled because the guys point blank flat out refused to sing?

So we discard all of be statements quoted by those who were there because there is no documented evidence?  Brian was the gravy train, whoo whoo...alllllllll aboard.  They had no choice.  Capital was still paying them.  What was Mike going to do, go solo?  Let's be serious...Brian was the music, they had to follow, kicking and screaming perhaps, but they had to follow.  Drop Brian and goodbye Capital and goodbye meal ticket.  Their compliance proves they were aware of reality, not that they supported Brian or the music.

EoL

[Empire Of Love]

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

Those are both fairly mild statements. With all the Surf and Hot Rod knockoff material Bruce helped out on in the 60s, I'm sure there are many things he played on that he didn't think was all that great. Still I have no doubt he gave it his all every time.

As for why the band recorded the vocals, you'd have to ask them. Just as you'd have to ask the many actors who perform roles in films and tv shows that they probably don't like very much. Why did Chevy Chase do such a great performance in Community for four seasons when he is on record as not liking the show?

I'm guessing in Chevy's case, it was because he needed the money.

And so we have our answer.  You must admit that at the time of Pet Sounds recording and release no Brian meant no Beach Boys which meant huge income cut for Mike.

[Mike's Beard]

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

Those are both fairly mild statements. With all the Surf and Hot Rod knockoff material Bruce helped out on in the 60s, I'm sure there are many things he played on that he didn't think was all that great. Still I have no doubt he gave it his all every time.

Well, the second one is mild. I'm not sure if I would appreciate someone referring to the work I worked hard on as "stupid" though. And furthermore, what's important is the consistency. One or two "mild statements" can build up.

No doubt they can and it's clear that there was friction at times during this period. But we can only make guesses as to their magnitude overall. Only one guy knows for sure and he's changed his story so many times you can't take anything he says about the subject as gospel.

[Empire Of Love]

Well, the second one is mild. I'm not sure if I would appreciate someone referring to the work I worked hard on as "stupid" though. And furthermore, what's important is the consistency. One or two "mild statements" can build up.

No doubt they can and it's clear that there was friction at times during this period. But we can only make guesses as to their magnitude overall. Only one guy knows for sure and he's changed his story so many times you can't take anything he says about the subject as gospel.

I disagree, I don't think Mike is the only one that knows.

[Mike's Beard]

Well, the second one is mild. I'm not sure if I would appreciate someone referring to the work I worked hard on as "stupid" though. And furthermore, what's important is the consistency. One or two "mild statements" can build up.

No doubt they can and it's clear that there was friction at times during this period. But we can only make guesses as to their magnitude overall. Only one guy knows for sure and he's changed his story so many times you can't take anything he says about the subject as gospel.

I disagree, I don't think Mike is the only one that knows.

I was actually talking about Brian there.

[Mike's Beard]

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

Those are both fairly mild statements. With all the Surf and Hot Rod knockoff material Bruce helped out on in the 60s, I'm sure there are many things he played on that he didn't think was all that great. Still I have no doubt he gave it his all every time.

As for why the band recorded the vocals, you'd have to ask them. Just as you'd have to ask the many actors who perform roles in films and tv shows that they probably don't like very much. Why did Chevy Chase do such a great performance in Community for four seasons when he is on record as not liking the show?

I'm guessing in Chevy's case, it was because he needed the money.

And so we have our answer.  You must admit that at the time of Pet Sounds recording and release no Brian meant no Beach Boys which meant huge income cut for Mike.

They were all in it for the money.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

Those are both fairly mild statements. With all the Surf and Hot Rod knockoff material Bruce helped out on in the 60s, I'm sure there are many things he played on that he didn't think was all that great. Still I have no doubt he gave it his all every time.

Well, the second one is mild. I'm not sure if I would appreciate someone referring to the work I worked hard on as "stupid" though. And furthermore, what's important is the consistency. One or two "mild statements" can build up.

No doubt they can and it's clear that there was friction at times during this period. But we can only make guesses as to their magnitude overall. Only one guy knows for sure and he's changed his story so many times you can't take anything he says about the subject as gospel.

How they affected Brian is not my point in this discussion really. There are those who have been close to Brian such as Ray Lawlor and Marilyn (who stated that the band "tore him down,") who have spoken about the band's behaviour affected Brian. What I'm more concerned about is the question of whether or not this behaviour existed at all -- and it seems to me that there's too many sources who say that it did that it's impossible to deny at this point. And the claims made by the people who were responsible for this behaviour generally tend to not match what these sources say.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

Those are both fairly mild statements. With all the Surf and Hot Rod knockoff material Bruce helped out on in the 60s, I'm sure there are many things he played on that he didn't think was all that great. Still I have no doubt he gave it his all every time.

As for why the band recorded the vocals, you'd have to ask them. Just as you'd have to ask the many actors who perform roles in films and tv shows that they probably don't like very much. Why did Chevy Chase do such a great performance in Community for four seasons when he is on record as not liking the show?

I'm guessing in Chevy's case, it was because he needed the money.

And so we have our answer.  You must admit that at the time of Pet Sounds recording and release no Brian meant no Beach Boys which meant huge income cut for Mike.

They were all in it for the money.

But on point, you agree then that there are reasons why a performer can perform material very well other than them liking and supporting the material.

[filledeplage]

There's a rather large gulf between questioning something's commercial viability and outright dissmissing it.

True. But is saying, "I don’t know why we’re recording this these stupid songs anyway," questioning something's commercial viability? Or "It’s not a bunch of great songs. ... that’s a pretty lightweight album"?

If Mike or any of the other guys were so against Brian's material in 66/67, why did they learn their parts and record them? Lots of finger pointing but has anybody ever produced any documented proof of a 'Beach Boys Smile Vocal Session' cancelled because the guys point blank flat out refused to sing?

No. We do have audio of Brian during the Smile sessions threatening to cancel if he didn't get cooperation, though.

And we have Brian's quotes on shelving it. And starting from scratch with Smiley with the band. 

I'm not sure I see the relevance of that. Can you elaborate?

Just bumped the quoted sections in the Smiley Likely commercial performance (or lack of ) in 1967?

I read them and was already aware of them but I'm afraid I still don't understand the relevance. I'm just a bit dim -- can you explain it?

http://youtu.be/cVltbEJBkJM
Hope this opens.

Dennis Wilson with Pete Fornatale. 1976.  It is on YouTube if it doesn't.

I doubt you're "dim."  

What the non-band people have to say is of little consequence to me. They editorialize.