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Author Topic: Don't F**k With the Formula  (Read 19816 times)
CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2015, 06:09:25 PM »

Until someone gets comments from them, on the record, as to whether this statement attributed to  Mike is real, my sense is David rules.

I haven't seen Brian comment on it but I'm pretty sure there is a published interview where Mike says he never said it and I think AGD said Mike also denied it in an interview with him. There is also Mike's contemporaneous interview where he is complaining about Capitol trying to promote the band in England as a surf band or something and I've seen other interviews where he complains about the same thing being done by Capitol I believe.

Do you really believe, honestly, that Mike doesn't try to downplay past actions of his which are widely seen as being worthy of criticism? And that sometimes he may go too far in that regard? Not saying it's not understandable for someone who is as picked on as he is to be defensive, but don't you think that it's possible to go too far with that? Ever?
Why do you not believe anything Mike has stated? You look for reasons not believe his comments. Mike has stated that he never said it and I will take him at his word, especially after reading Stephen's statements on the subject.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I do not "not believe anything Mike has stated", and I don't believe I said anything like that.  

Regarding the quote and time period in question: it's one thing for Mike to state that a few issues "issues with a few lyrics" (I'm paraphrasing) were reasons for his actions. And I am sure that they were in fact part of the reasons, so I believe that statement has truth to it; now were those reasons the ONLY reasons? Not sure about that. Are you so sure? If there are a few things that were not addressed in his reasons, because they are tough emotional things to discuss, that simply means that I think there's additionally more to the story than what he said, not that the reasons he offered are patently false.  

Am I certain he never said the infamous quote (or that he DID in fact say it)? Certainly not. I do, however, think it's quite likely that if he didn't say it, that he implied it in so many words.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 06:14:47 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2015, 06:13:04 PM »

What does Mike Love being a disenting member to BW's new creative direction to the point of "don't f*** with the formula" have to do with BRI. The L&M movie shows him opposed to the new direction even if he doesn't use those exact words. Mike wanted the fame and easy money of the early hits with him on lead to continue. Not the Wilsons singing songs of H&V and cabinessence.
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2015, 06:25:34 PM »

What does Mike Love being a disenting member to BW's new creative direction to the point of "don't f*** with the formula" have to do with BRI. The L&M movie shows him opposed to the new direction even if he doesn't use those exact words. Mike wanted the fame and easy money of the early hits with him on lead to continue. Not the Wilsons singing songs of H&V and cabinessence.
It is disrespectful to Brian, who was in a growth process from Day one.  Each album was building up to Pet Sounds (and beyond) - and this is all contemporaneous.  

The "formula issue" is attributed to the record company who threw them under the bus.  

The L & M movie shows that Mike was "reasonable under the circumstances" and if you want to find some other interpretation, that is your right.  Brian is on record saying Mike's character was treated well and exactly the opposite of what you are asserting.  

Having six people agree to pull away and form their own company midstream is "telling" in that there was a bigger problem than lyrics and /or artistic differences.  One of six members just doesn't have that kind of drag.  That's just not democratic.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 06:26:49 PM by filledeplage » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2015, 06:31:30 PM »

This is like the 3rd Mike Love PR whitewash this week. Roll Eyes
So, you are saying Mike is lying and Stephen's comments hold no weight in your eyes?
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And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2015, 06:31:56 PM »

What does Mike Love being a disenting member to BW's new creative direction to the point of "don't f*** with the formula" have to do with BRI. The L&M movie shows him opposed to the new direction even if he doesn't use those exact words. Mike wanted the fame and easy money of the early hits with him on lead to continue. Not the Wilsons singing songs of H&V and cabinessence.
It is disrespectful to Brian, who was in a growth process from Day one.  Each album was building up to Pet Sounds (and beyond) - and this is all contemporaneous.  

The "formula issue" is attributed to the record company who threw them under the bus.  

The L & M movie shows that Mike was "reasonable under the circumstances" and if you want to find some other interpretation, that is your right.  Brian is on record saying Mike's character was treated well and exactly the opposite of what you are asserting.  

Having six people agree to pull away and form their own company midstream is "telling" in that there was a bigger problem than lyrics and /or artistic differences.  One of six members just doesn't have that kind of drag.  That's just not democratic.

There is absolutely no reason why a band, by definition, needs to be democratic. Some bands are and some bands are not. Nobody complains when a director calls the shots on a film. One thing is for sure… Guilt trips shouldn't be used as leverage.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 06:33:07 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2015, 06:36:53 PM »

What does Mike Love being a disenting member to BW's new creative direction to the point of "don't f*** with the formula" have to do with BRI. The L&M movie shows him opposed to the new direction even if he doesn't use those exact words. Mike wanted the fame and easy money of the early hits with him on lead to continue. Not the Wilsons singing songs of H&V and cabinessence.
It is disrespectful to Brian, who was in a growth process from Day one.  Each album was building up to Pet Sounds (and beyond) - and this is all contemporaneous.  

The "formula issue" is attributed to the record company who threw them under the bus.  

The L & M movie shows that Mike was "reasonable under the circumstances" and if you want to find some other interpretation, that is your right.  Brian is on record saying Mike's character was treated well and exactly the opposite of what you are asserting.  

Having six people agree to pull away and form their own company midstream is "telling" in that there was a bigger problem than lyrics and /or artistic differences.  One of six members just doesn't have that kind of drag.  That's just not democratic.

There is absolutely no reason why a band, by definition, needs to be democratic. Some bands are and some bands are not. Nobody complains when a director calls the shots on a film.
The fact remains  that this group of guys made a conscious decision in that time frame, to reform as a new business, and legally reduced to writing, a new organization. 
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2015, 06:37:05 PM »

Yeah the "democratic" BBs forced BW to give up redwood on brother records through guilt tripping BW to tears at Wally heider's. Somebody should ask Mike if he regrets giving up three dog night and signing the pickle brothers instead to brother records.
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2015, 06:39:56 PM »

  Oh gosh, I sense another 30 pages of Mike Love bashing in the offing. Is he really worth your time? LOL
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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2015, 06:41:53 PM »

Yeah the "democratic" BBs forced BW to give up redwood on brother records through guilt tripping BW to tears at Wally heider's. Somebody should ask Mike if he regrets giving up three dog night and signing the pickle brothers instead to brother records.
Smile Brian - I was not at whatever this event was and neither were you.  I had no idea what the Pickle Brothers has to do with this.  But I did see them.

Do you mean signing to tour as a warm up act?

Thanksgiving Tour 1967
Buffalo Springfield
Strawberry Alarm Clock
Soul Survivors
Pickle Brothers - who had already been on Ed Sullivan on 5/28/1967.  Those other three warm up bands were very impressive in their own right.  Especially The Buffalo Springfield.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 06:59:54 PM by filledeplage » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2015, 07:20:36 PM »

This is background info that has been covered extensively on this board, regarding BRI, how The Pickle Brothers came into the fold and who they were, what "Brother" was being set up to become for the band members, the whole nine yards.

But to sum up, one of the key elements in setting up BRI was to allow the individual band members to scout, sign, and produce/develop outside artists with the goal of having them release records on the Brother label (distributed by Capitol as part of the 1967 lawsuit settlement that concerned money owed the band due to a practice exposed by David Anderle, involving accountant Nick Grillo and attorney Abe Sommers), and those projects would make money for the label and therefore the band.

Brian wanted to sign Redwood and started producing what was intended to be an album for them. We know how that turned out, eventually Mike approached Redwood with a compromise to do a single instead, as the Beach Boys did not want Brian producing an album for Redwood and using original songs as part of it.

Mike brought in The Pickle Brothers. Have you heard the actual recordings? A parody of Ode To Billy Joe and another forgettable track that has the young narrator saying how much he hates everything. Comedy gold. The Pickle Brothers themselves had a showbiz connection in that one of their relatives happened to be one of the bigger power brokers in showbiz in the 60's, a very known figure in the world of agents and representation. How did they get TV gigs? Put it this way...I doubt it was their "Dracula Skit" that won them that slot. That's one to investigate. This board has some of the most detailed info you'll find on the Pickle Brothers minus the members themselves.

Carl a few years later brought in The Flame as his signing. That one it could be argued ended up being the best one of the bunch, since the Beach Boys picked up two new members who could play their asses off and soon joined the live band for one of its best eras ever. And Blondie got the lead on Sail On Sailor, perhaps the most successful single they had during this time.

So that was it. Apart from Mike's Pickle Brothers attempt, he didn't add much that lasted to the Brother label. That version of Let The Wind Blow by "Amy"? Some dabbling with Craig Vincent Smith who took his songwriting royalties from getting the song Salesman on a Monkees album and traveled the globe seeking enlightenment only to return to LA sorta/kinda spaced out and looking for a record deal?

Brian went with the plan, he brought in Redwood, they had at least one full-blown production on tape but it got short-circuited when the band essentially said they didn't want him producing Redwood.

Yeah, so...isn't that why Brother was set up in the first place?

Anyway.

Another person involved from the beginning was Michael Vosse. Contrary to the revisionists and outright misinformed souls who try to paint him as a hanger-on, Vosse had a background in television production, graphic design and freelance writing. That was him selling interviews with Brian and Zappa to Capitol to publish in Teen Set. Vosse was to head up Brother Films, which as an arm of the larger Brother corporation being planned (mostly structured in real-world terms by Anderle and Grillo) was to have released film and video media as another profit-generating arm of the Brother structure. That didn't happen either. By May 1967 Vosse left, saying he had nothing to do. He soon joined forces with another graphic artist, they went to the then-new A&M label with Alpert and Moss, and started an in-house design department. Vosse also began working on the Monterey Pop project, designing the official program and doing other organizational tasks to stage the festival.

Hardly a hanger-on...and had it been followed through, he would have been overseeing the film department at Brother.

So that's that, in a nutshell as small as I could make it.

Brother was set up to give the freedom to the band members to work with outside artists, produce and record both outside and within "The Beach Boys", produce and release films, and a host of other related things.

Think of it as the template for what the Beatles tried to do with Apple Corps a year or so later. Because that's what it was to have been built into.

Any corrections are welcome, as usual. But that's a surface-level rundown of what went into Brother and how it was being planned to take shape as 1966 turned into 1967. I stand by this info and will gladly provide more if necessary to set the record straight.



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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2015, 07:37:12 PM »

It'd be nice if if someone could find the members of the Pickle brothers and get them to sit for interviews. I'm thinking they're all not really in tyouch with each other after all this time.
Maybe they'd have saved some memorabilia/pictures of their time with the BBs...

I can't remember: has there ever been a definite take on AMY?
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2015, 07:41:32 PM »

You talk up and Anderle and Vosse, yet these guys did a terrible job running Brother Records. These guys got nothing accomplished. Did a shitty job running interference for Brian. Let the guys sign dubious talent. These guys had no managerial skills. Sounds more like they used the band as a pay day. They may have or may not have been good at AR or other technical aspects, but ran Brother into the ground before it could get off the ground.
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Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2015, 07:43:22 PM »

This is background info that has been covered extensively on this board, regarding BRI, how The Pickle Brothers came into the fold and who they were, what "Brother" was being set up to become for the band members, the whole nine yards.

But to sum up, one of the key elements in setting up BRI was to allow the individual band members to scout, sign, and produce/develop outside artists with the goal of having them release records on the Brother label (distributed by Capitol as part of the 1967 lawsuit settlement that concerned money owed the band due to a practice exposed by David Anderle, involving accountant Nick Grillo and attorney Abe Sommers), and those projects would make money for the label and therefore the band.

Brian wanted to sign Redwood and started producing what was intended to be an album for them. We know how that turned out, eventually Mike approached Redwood with a compromise to do a single instead, as the Beach Boys did not want Brian producing an album for Redwood and using original songs as part of it.

Mike brought in The Pickle Brothers. Have you heard the actual recordings? A parody of Ode To Billy Joe and another forgettable track that has the young narrator saying how much he hates everything. Comedy gold. The Pickle Brothers themselves had a showbiz connection in that one of their relatives happened to be one of the bigger power brokers in showbiz in the 60's, a very known figure in the world of agents and representation. How did they get TV gigs? Put it this way...I doubt it was their "Dracula Skit" that won them that slot. That's one to investigate. This board has some of the most detailed info you'll find on the Pickle Brothers minus the members themselves.

Carl a few years later brought in The Flame as his signing. That one it could be argued ended up being the best one of the bunch, since the Beach Boys picked up two new members who could play their asses off and soon joined the live band for one of its best eras ever. And Blondie got the lead on Sail On Sailor, perhaps the most successful single they had during this time.

So that was it. Apart from Mike's Pickle Brothers attempt, he didn't add much that lasted to the Brother label. That version of Let The Wind Blow by "Amy"? Some dabbling with Craig Vincent Smith who took his songwriting royalties from getting the song Salesman on a Monkees album and traveled the globe seeking enlightenment only to return to LA sorta/kinda spaced out and looking for a record deal?

Brian went with the plan, he brought in Redwood, they had at least one full-blown production on tape but it got short-circuited when the band essentially said they didn't want him producing Redwood.

Yeah, so...isn't that why Brother was set up in the first place?

Anyway.

Another person involved from the beginning was Michael Vosse. Contrary to the revisionists and outright misinformed souls who try to paint him as a hanger-on, Vosse had a background in television production, graphic design and freelance writing. That was him selling interviews with Brian and Zappa to Capitol to publish in Teen Set. Vosse was to head up Brother Films, which as an arm of the larger Brother corporation being planned (mostly structured in real-world terms by Anderle and Grillo) was to have released film and video media as another profit-generating arm of the Brother structure. That didn't happen either. By May 1967 Vosse left, saying he had nothing to do. He soon joined forces with another graphic artist, they went to the then-new A&M label with Alpert and Moss, and started an in-house design department. Vosse also began working on the Monterey Pop project, designing the official program and doing other organizational tasks to stage the festival.

Hardly a hanger-on...and had it been followed through, he would have been overseeing the film department at Brother.

So that's that, in a nutshell as small as I could make it.

Brother was set up to give the freedom to the band members to work with outside artists, produce and record both outside and within "The Beach Boys", produce and release films, and a host of other related things.

Think of it as the template for what the Beatles tried to do with Apple Corps a year or so later. Because that's what it was to have been built into.

Any corrections are welcome, as usual. But that's a surface-level rundown of what went into Brother and how it was being planned to take shape as 1966 turned into 1967. I stand by this info and will gladly provide more if necessary to set the record straight.
Thanks very much for that.   I had no idea that unsavory practices resulted in a suit in 1967.  And there is no question, I'm no big fan of warm up acts.  That team (minus the comedians) had major hits in that window.

And even if you weren't a BB fan, you might want to see The Buffalo Springfield, Soul Survivors or Strawberry Alarm Clock.  It reduced the setlist of hits they (BB's) could perform live.  And, many would not believe it, but often they would be horrified that Barbara Ann was one of the first numbers in the set.

Most would not know that BRI had "signing" or some version of "promotion of other acts" that seems to have given them some latitude to "horizontally" expand their business.  But a lot of business expansion is "trial and error."
 
Who knew that Teen Set was an extension of the business?  LOL

You explained a lot, and well.  Thanks again!
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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2015, 07:58:54 PM »

You talk up and Anderle and Vosse, yet these guys did a terrible job running Brother Records. These guys got nothing accomplished. Did a shitty job running interference for Brian. Let the guys sign dubious talent. These guys had no managerial skills. Sounds more like they used the band as a pay day. They may have or may not have been good at AR or other technical aspects, but ran Brother into the ground before it could get off the ground.

Even by the board's standards, that's nuts. Totally inaccurate. Do you know the story, do you know the background? For the record...and this may sting a bit...

Brother Records is still in existence and is a multi-million dollar corporate interest with a board of directors and a viable name. It's now called BRI, Brother Records. Plain and simple. Every Beach Boys product, tour program, t-shirt and bumper sticker has the Brother imprint. It makes and generates money.

If there were no David Anderle, there would be no BRI today. If there were no Brian bringing David Anderle in to form Brother records, there would be no BRI. If David Anderle had not brought Nick Grillo and Abe Sommers among others into the planning stages of Brother Records, it's possible no one would have even thought about the questionable practices Capitol was using on artists like The Beach Boys to skim money owed to them and being done through an antiquated "breakage" clause in contracts that dated back to the era of 78rpm discs but which was used as a contract loophole to essentially cheat artists.

Anderle-Grillo-Sommers found it through audits of the books, and THAT was the whole foundation of the lawsuit that led to Capitol agreeing to distribute Brother Records and be on board with it in 1967. Major label distribution clout, a structure getting put in place...see how important that major label involvement is to any new label, or any artist, or venture.

The same logo that was chosen for Brother in 1967 is still in use. That's me standing in front of the statue in my board avatar, outside the MFA in Boston.

Without Anderle, it wouldn't have developed. Period. End of story.

Vosse's involvement ended quite simply, he was originally given a job to do at Brother and the job ended up not existing when he left in April/May 1967 to find other work with record labels and related interests. He eventually got into TV news production, and was an Emmy-winning TV news producer in California for decades until he retired. Ever see his rock history documentary? The one he produced that got screened on TV? That's good stuff.

So again, there is the way it happened in reality and that's what most consider "the facts". That is what i laid out, the facts. Very few opinions mixed in, other than that the Pickle Brothers weren't funny.

Brother Records still exists as BRI. Who was there to set it up? How did it get set up and funded in the first place? Them's the facts. Not what's in your reply above.
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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2015, 08:24:49 PM »

You talk up and Anderle and Vosse, yet these guys did a terrible job running Brother Records. These guys got nothing accomplished. Did a shitty job running interference for Brian. Let the guys sign dubious talent. These guys had no managerial skills. Sounds more like they used the band as a pay day. They may have or may not have been good at AR or other technical aspects, but ran Brother into the ground before it could get off the ground.

thats pretty harsh. I think it's pretty unfair to blame them when Brian was becoming increasingly withdrawn and aimless and erratic. What were they supposed to do? Isnt there that anecdote about him trying desperately to plan business with him and Brian locking him out? And in any case, regardless of whether they were good at their jobs or not, they obviously cared deeply about what Brian was doing based on their interviews about SMiLE and performing Brian's offbeat skits.

I cant claim to say, obviously Im in no position to know Brian's state of mind, but I think its possible thats at least part of the reason why he must feel so badly about that era.
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« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2015, 08:25:18 PM »

Until someone gets comments from them, on the record, as to whether this statement attributed to  Mike is real, my sense is David rules.

I haven't seen Brian comment on it but I'm pretty sure there is a published interview where Mike says he never said it and I think AGD said Mike also denied it in an interview with him. There is also Mike's contemporaneous interview where he is complaining about Capitol trying to promote the band in England as a surf band or something and I've seen other interviews where he complains about the same thing being done by Capitol I believe.

I don't know enough about this to opine as to what Mike said.  However, I would like to point out again that there is no contradiction between saying "Don't eff with the formula" and not wanting to be known as a surf group.  "Don't eff..." means "keep writing hits not artsy stuff" while not wanting to be marketed as a surf band means not wanting to be marketed as a surf band.  Brian (and Mike) wrote catchy songs about things other than surfing pre-Pet Sounds.  Don't eff means keep that up, don't write downer music, don't write obscure stuff no one understands, etc.  The "don't eff" comment need not refer to surf music, so appealing to anti-surf music quotes by Mike does not argue against the likelihood he made the statement.

EoL
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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2015, 08:47:03 PM »

Changing the name of the band that deep into a career would have been a terrible mistake. Maybe not an obvious one, in say 1970, but ultimately a career killer. Please.

Yeah, because their career past Good Vibrations was sooo successful.

I doubt it would have mattered. People still think the Small Faces and Faces are the same band with a name change. Same goes for Jefferson Airplane/Starship.

After they made a 5 star or close LP in Sunflower with Brian heavily involved and the record company promoting it strongly and it flopped, there was no chance for extended success ever again, and it never happened either.
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« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2015, 08:53:40 PM »

Until someone gets comments from them, on the record, as to whether this statement attributed to  Mike is real, my sense is David rules.

I haven't seen Brian comment on it but I'm pretty sure there is a published interview where Mike says he never said it and I think AGD said Mike also denied it in an interview with him. There is also Mike's contemporaneous interview where he is complaining about Capitol trying to promote the band in England as a surf band or something and I've seen other interviews where he complains about the same thing being done by Capitol I believe.

I don't know enough about this to opine as to what Mike said.  However, I would like to point out again that there is no contradiction between saying "Don't eff with the formula" and not wanting to be known as a surf group.  "Don't eff..." means "keep writing hits not artsy stuff" while not wanting to be marketed as a surf band means not wanting to be marketed as a surf band.  Brian (and Mike) wrote catchy songs about things other than surfing pre-Pet Sounds.  Don't eff means keep that up, don't write downer music, don't write obscure stuff no one understands, etc.  The "don't eff" comment need not refer to surf music, so appealing to anti-surf music quotes by Mike does not argue against the likelihood he made the statement.

EoL

I think it's clear that none of us know what was meant by "formula" except that what has been the common interpretation up until today isn't a good fit.  

Again, still to me Good Vibrations alone would argue against "formula" as meaning not artsy or hits like the past (including surf music).
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 09:02:31 PM by Cam Mott » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2015, 08:57:07 PM »

Here's how Al defined it:

Mike was very confused by [Pet Sounds]. I wasn’t exactly thrilled with the change, but I grew to appreciate it as soon as we started to work on it. … Mike’s a formula hound – if it doesn’t have a hook in it, if he can’t hear a hook in it, he doesn’t want to know about it.
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Kurosawa
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« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2015, 09:25:21 PM »

Mike is technically right-as soon as they went away from the formula, the band was no longer successful. But Brian didn't want to write that sort of stuff and was not strong enough as a leader, partially thanks to his problems, to control the band the way it needed to be controlled. What Mike or Al or any of them needed to be told during SMiLE was to either contribute or leave, or Brian should have just left himself. But Brian was too sick to finish anything, and he's had a ton of unfinished projects since then.
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Ron
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« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2015, 10:12:40 PM »

My thoughts


 - "The Beach" would have worked very well.  It wouldn't have been career suicide, because it's literally the first half of the name anyways, there wouldn't have been any confusion in the market and most people would have logically been able to follow that it was the same band as "The Beach Boys".  I think it would have worked wonderfully and would have probably given them more legitimacy.


- Michael saying "Don't f*** With The Formula" isn't some great crime, it was his opinion and many would argue he was right.  Even if you feel he was completely wrong, you can't hate on somebody for having a different opinion than yours, people should be able to discuss things they disagree with, that's how we all learn.  I don't see anything egregious about that statement if he ever even made it.  It's just an opinion, man.

I think ultimately too time proved that Michael was plenty willing to f*** with the formula.  His two biggest lyrical achievements that the fans herald completely destroy the formula, "Good Vibrations" changed music, and "Big Sur" is amazingly outside the box. 


I've never understood the need to villify Mike.  Even Brian doesn't, Brian's critical, in a fair way, of some of Mike's faults, but he never pretends that Mike screwed everything up.  It took a lot of hard work from just about all 5 of them to screw up all the things the Beach Boys screwed up. 
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2015, 10:20:47 PM »

I fail to see how changing the name to "The Beach" would have helped. I can see some DJ spinning some new record and saying "here's the latest by The Beach" and everyone would hear - in their head - "Boys". The Young Rascals became the Rascals; Paul Revere and the Raiders featuring Mark Lindsay became just Raiders. Did either move save the bands' career? I don't think so, although the Rascals did have "People Got to Be Free" and the Raiders had "Indian Reservation" after the name change.
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« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2015, 10:22:06 PM »

No use arguing about it...
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SurfRiderHawaii
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« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2015, 10:33:10 PM »

They went back to the formula with "Do it Again". Which shot to #1 with a bullet, oh, sorry, it didn't. (I do love the song).

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"Brian is The Beach Boys. He is the band. We're his f***ing messengers. He is all of it. Period. We're nothing. He's everything" - Dennis Wilson
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« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2015, 10:33:36 PM »

My thoughts


 - "The Beach" would have worked very well.  It wouldn't have been career suicide, because it's literally the first half of the name anyways, there wouldn't have been any confusion in the market and most people would have logically been able to follow that it was the same band as "The Beach Boys".  I think it would have worked wonderfully and would have probably given them more legitimacy.


- Michael saying "Don't f*** With The Formula" isn't some great crime, it was his opinion and many would argue he was right.  Even if you feel he was completely wrong, you can't hate on somebody for having a different opinion than yours, people should be able to discuss things they disagree with, that's how we all learn.  I don't see anything egregious about that statement if he ever even made it.  It's just an opinion, man.

I think ultimately too time proved that Michael was plenty willing to f*** with the formula.  His two biggest lyrical achievements that the fans herald completely destroy the formula, "Good Vibrations" changed music, and "Big Sur" is amazingly outside the box.  


I've never understood the need to villify Mike.  Even Brian doesn't...

1. The Beach: I think that three name change  alone would have been a positive.  If it had represented the collective agreement of the band to head in the direction Brian had in mind I think it would have resulted in a second wave of success for the band.  It would have meant Brian had more support, which it seems he needed, and that there was less friction and an overall healthy, creative environment.  The change alone would not have had any magical powers.

2. Don't eff: I agree.  It is one perspective and not necessarily a wrong one.  I don't think "the" formula would have continued to work, because the world/music was quickly and radically changing, but something approximating the formula would have worked.  There is always room on the charts for a catchy song.  I do disagree with the overall sentiment, I prefer a bit if adventure and creativity, but as you said, it's just one man's opinion.

3. I don't think Good Vibrations proves Mike was willing to eff with the formula.  That song has hit/money written all over it, and I think that was/is Mike's primary concern.  It may be Brian's too, but I think he cares about other things as well, and at least for a time wanted to experiment.

4. I don't know why people need to say that some need to vilify Mike, as if the problem is with the person observing him being a jackass.  I don't think anyone needs to vilify him.  He acts like a villain, people point it out.  He proves them right over and over again.  I believe even the staunchest Mike-hater wishes he would change his ways so they could embrace him.  In fact, around the time of C50 people did exactly that.  Then he went back to his old ways (and I'm not talking about blaming him for the end of C50).

Also, I don't think you can take Brian's kindness toward Mike as evidence of his thoughts toward Mike.  I believe those that know Brian best have said he generally doesn't talk badly about people.  He also handles the media far better than Mike.  I think he could hate Mike and we wouldn't know it.  Brian has hardly bad mouthed Landy or his Father, and by most accounts both men deserved it far more than Mike.  If he says very little negative about those two, what makes you think he would bad mouth Mike, who has caused less damage to Brian than either Landy or Murry?

EoL

Edit: Sorry, I became very comma happy in that post .
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 10:38:55 PM by Empire Of Love » Logged

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