Rolling Stone's 100 Greatest Songwriters - Brian at #12

[Smilin Ed H]

I don't think Brian should be behind Stevie Wonder, but Bob Marley really deserves to be ahead. My test for how strong a melody is is how good it sounds on acoustic guitar and voice only. Bob Marley beats Brian there.
The worst thing in this list is Taylor Swift in and Freddie Mercury out

No. Marley did not, probably could not, produce the type of complex music Brian did, nor has his music been so influential on such a scale (note the choice of words), nor - on a more simple scale - had he that amount of hits. And if you want to talk about the simplicity of man and guitar or man and keyboard, say, there are plenty of other artists who do that. I like Marley's music, but except for carrying the flag for Reggae (virtually single-handedly in America) and being its poster boy around the world to the extent you used to get dumb white kids listening to his music, wearing dreads and smoking herb thinking they knew what it was like to be a brother in Johnstown (and then they'd go back home to their mothers for for tea), Marley is far too high up this list.

[Smilin Ed H]

Unless I missed them...

No Freddie Mercury
No Dennis Wilson
No Rufus Wainwright (or maybe his mother & aunt, the McGarrigle Sisters)
No Nina Simone
No Warren Zevon
No Ron Sexsmith
No Tori Amos

I understand you've got to leave some people out, but there are a few on the list who maybe don't deserve it as much. I won't knock Taylor Swift's inclusion because I'm not familiar with her songs, except Shake It Off.
But...it's just a list. 

Was Rufus' dad there? I couldn't be arsed to scroll through the whole list, but I'd take him over Rufus even if the only thing he ever did was The Mast Man on Earth album, He should be there at least as much as Warren Zevon and Jackson Browne. Good shout out for Ron too!

[felipe]

I agree with your latter assertion.... Taylor Swift has no business being on this list.... but not the former. If the barometer of a strong melody, and, by extension, song, is how good it sounds on an acoustic guitar with voice only, then "Good Vibrations," which IMO is still the most astonishing, greatest song ever recorded, and a good portion of Brian's catalog in turn would not make the cut. I know you said melody, not song, but this is a list of greatest songwriters, not just melody writers. Not that I agree with the RS list, but they, and most others, would argue there is more to a good song than just a good melody. One might argue that Paul McCartney is at the top when it comes to melody making, but I believe Brian is at the top when it comes to songwriting - all the parts of it put together. Another amazing example of this: Let's Go Away for Awhile.

Here's a link to an interesting piece by Suzanne Vega, who says it better than I did. One quote from her article: "a great song does not need a well-crafted, “memorable” melody to work. There are a million examples of this — blues songs, folk songs, three-chord rock songs, rock poetry, rap music."

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/06/whats-a-melody-for/?_r=0

great article. Our only substantial difference is in the concept of the word. I think the songwriter's work ends in the chord sheet. From there, come in the arrangers, the singers and the musicians. It only happens Brian was all of them too. For me, Brian's uniqueness was in the arranging departament. He was the best in harmony too, but often repeated himself in the melody patterns, though they were all great. For me the best in melody skill was this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53W3u-74Nz0, who could do anything above shitty harmony and arrangements. The funny thing is his biggest idol was Brian Wilson, whom he said was the best of all time either in harmony or melody

No. Marley did not, probably could not, produce the type of complex music Brian did, nor has his music been so influential on such a scale (note the choice of words), nor - on a more simple scale - had he that amount of hits. And if you want to talk about the simplicity of man and guitar or man and keyboard, say, there are plenty of other artists who do that. I like Marley's music, but except for carrying the flag for Reggae (virtually single-handedly in America) and being its poster boy around the world to the extent you used to get dumb white kids listening to his music, wearing dreads and smoking herb thinking they knew what it was like to be a brother in Johnstown (and then they'd go back home to their mothers for for tea), Marley is far too high up this list.

To me, harmony+melody+lyric-the rest, Bob Marley is more consistent than Brian Wilson, though he could never write anything better than God Only Knows or When I Grow Up.

[Smilin Ed H]

Well, we'll have to agree to differ and leave it at that. There's too much asshattery on this board as it is and life's too short.

[Amy B.]

Taylor Swift has no business being on this list....

How many of us on this board are really in a position to judge whether Taylor Swift belongs on the list? Personally, I think I've heard two of her songs...and my judgment of them may be clouded by her teenagery voice (I know she's in her 20s). I read that Ryan Adams is doing an entire album of Taylor Swift covers. It will be interesting to see how her songs hold up when performed by someone else (another interesting measure of a song's quality). Check it out:
http://www.nme.com/news/ryan-adams/87546

[Amy B.]

Was Rufus' dad there? I couldn't be arsed to scroll through the whole list, but I'd take him over Rufus even if the only thing he ever did was The Mast Man on Earth album, He should be there at least as much as Warren Zevon and Jackson Browne. Good shout out for Ron too!

I might have missed it, but I did not see any members of the Wainwright-McGarrigle-Roche clan on the list. (Except Leonard Cohen, if you want to count him, as he's the grandfather of Rufus's daughter.  ) Maybe Rufus didn't make it because his main influences are less rock/pop and more classical and the Great American Songbook. I noticed that this list of "all time" greatest songwriters had no Tin Pan Alley but did have the likes of Woody Guthrie, so maybe one measure is whether you can draw a line through rock and roll influence to get to or from a particular songwriter.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Taylor Swift has no business being on this list....

How many of us on this board are really in a position to judge whether Taylor Swift belongs on the list? Personally, I think I've heard two of her songs...and my judgment of them may be clouded by her teenagery voice (I know she's in her 20s). I read that Ryan Adams is doing an entire album of Taylor Swift covers. It will be interesting to see how her songs hold up when performed by someone else (another interesting measure of a song's quality). Check it out:
http://www.nme.com/news/ryan-adams/87546

Because there's objectively better songwriters who were left off? Yes, I know music is subjective and all...But to leave off Frank goshdarn Zappa for example is just plain criminal. The man released 62 albums, 100 if we include posthumous, of mostly original compositions. And it just so happens he wrote some of the most unique and innovative music ever, across a variety of genres.

Not dissing Swift (I don't know or have any intention of knowing her work) but you can see why it bothers people then, surely? I don't even know why I'm letting it bother me tho. The list is junk and not worth talking about. I should stop replying.

[Smilin Ed H]

Was Rufus' dad there? I couldn't be arsed to scroll through the whole list, but I'd take him over Rufus even if the only thing he ever did was The Mast Man on Earth album, He should be there at least as much as Warren Zevon and Jackson Browne. Good shout out for Ron too!

I might have missed it, but I did not see any members of the Wainwright-McGarrigle-Roche clan on the list. (Except Leonard Cohen, if you want to count him, as he's the grandfather of Rufus's daughter.  ) Maybe Rufus didn't make it because his main influences are less rock/pop and more classical and the Great American Songbook. I noticed that this list of "all time" greatest songwriters had no Tin Pan Alley but did have the likes of Woody Guthrie, so maybe one measure is whether you can draw a line through rock and roll influence to get to or from a particular songwriter.

Standard thing for RS, really. I think I'd put Chuck top, odious though he may be, then Bob, L & M, then Brian and then... Simon, Goffin & King, Joni? Gaye? Dunno.

[the captain]

I didn't work my way through the list, because it just doesn't matter much. But I have read snippets of the thread and just have a few comments.

As is inevitably stated (after a few pages of hand-wringing) on these sorts of threads, they don't matter. Part of what makes these threads so funny is how people often pile on how stupid Rolling Stone (or whoever) is, getting all bent out of shape, while knowing full well that these sorts of lists literally cannot be done objectively. There is no such thing as a ranking of songwriters that could possibly mean anything at all. It isn't a race where a time is a time and that's that. The list wins when people visit it and talk about it.

Taylor Swift is a good songwriter. Mujan's comment that there are "objectively better songwriters" is a tricky one for me because I wonder what criteria of objectivity there are he's referring to. Don't get me wrong, you can identify your criteria and no doubt there will be people who fit that description. But by other criteria, she belongs. After all, she's had plenty of massive hits. Isn't popularity of your songs one good objective measure of a songwriter's quality? Maybe the challenge for including her is that she's still in what is presumably the early stage of her career, whereas other people's careers--Zappa's, also mentioned by Mujan--are set and more easily assessed. Is Swift's inclusion on her existing work or a projection of where she'll end up in 20, 30, 50 years?

Anyway, blah blah so and so was left off blah blah. It doesn't matter. I couldn't make a list that I confidently agree with myself, so I don't see much reason in worrying about one put together by a magazine.

[Amy B.]

Because there's objectively better songwriters who were left off? Yes, I know music is subjective and all...But to leave off Frank goshdarn Zappa for example is just plain criminal. The man released 62 albums, 100 if we include posthumous, of mostly original compositions. And it just so happens he wrote some of the most unique and innovative music ever, across a variety of genres.

Not dissing Swift (I don't know or have any intention of knowing her work) but you can see why it bothers people then, surely? I don't even know why I'm letting it bother me tho. The list is junk and not worth talking about. I should stop replying.

Objectively better? I'm not sure what that means, when you say you haven't heard her music and have no intention of listening to it. What if it's...good?? I'll just throw out there that I just looked up her discography and she's had 5 albums, to Kurt Cobain's 3. She's been making music for 9 years. So...you could say that she's too new, but on the other hand, she's not THAT new. I can see why people think others deserve her slot more (simply because there were legends left off), but I'm playing devil's advocate a bit, because I do feel that it's interesting when people think someone doesn't belong on the list because she is seen as making music for teenage girls. What if it's Madonna--not Taylor Swift--who doesn't belong? Doesn't she usually use collaborators? I think Swift works alone. Or how about R. Kelly? I Believe I Can Fly and Trapped in a Closet are great songwriting?

[Misterlou]

Taylor Swift has no business being on this list....

How many of us on this board are really in a position to judge whether Taylor Swift belongs on the list? Personally, I think I've heard two of her songs...and my judgment of them may be clouded by her teenagery voice (I know she's in her 20s).

Me! (raising my right hand high in the air, with a smug look on my face). Having three daughters, one of them still in her teens (this same daughter is going to Taylor's concert tonight in Santa Clara - and guess who gets to drive her there, a 2-3 hour trip each way, while being forced to listen to "1989" on endless loop), I believe I'm well qualified to make that judgment!

I'm not saying she isn't very talented, I'm just saying, IMO, she doesn't belong on this list.

[If Mars had life on it...]

What about "The Big O", Roy Orbison?  "Blue Bayou", "Crying", "In Dreams", "It's Over", "Oh, Pretty Woman", "Only the Lonely", "Running Scared", among many others should have earned him a spot somewhere. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Taylor Swift has no business being on this list....

How many of us on this board are really in a position to judge whether Taylor Swift belongs on the list? Personally, I think I've heard two of her songs...and my judgment of them may be clouded by her teenagery voice (I know she's in her 20s). I read that Ryan Adams is doing an entire album of Taylor Swift covers. It will be interesting to see how her songs hold up when performed by someone else (another interesting measure of a song's quality). Check it out:
http://www.nme.com/news/ryan-adams/87546

I would say she actually is a pretty good writer herself (and I've heard some pretty great covers of her songs). My only beef with her inclusion is that it is FAR too early to include her in any list like this; I personally feel a 10-15 year period is needed for perspective.

[Mike's Beard]

My take is these kind of lists have to cover all bases with every demographic. So a few current artists are thrown on the list for the kids. If nobody (relatively) new was included it would sort of be like RS was conceding that (gasp) modern songwriters are not a patch on artists from 50, 40, 30 or even 20 years ago.
Let's just be thankful that Brian was not languishing in the bottom 10 like the Gibb brothers or ABBA.

[Gohi]

I cant object to much about most of the people on the list but.. placing Madonna and prince ahead of tom petty.. ray davies.. pete  townsend is insane.. so the list to me has no meaning..

Prince is an amazing musician and a fantastic songwriter. Don't place him with Madonna.

[Lonely Summer]

What? No Dave Davies on this list? Hello? No Death of a Clown, Susannah's Still Alive or Living on A Thin Line?

[dombanzai]

The Bee Gees at 95? I remain continually puzzled how people who love pop music and especially the lost art of melodic writing continually only think of them as gold wearing clowns in white disco suits and don't recognize their consistent output of indelible tunes and peculiarly original lyrics (especially on the mid-late 60's work). Their first run of albums - the Bee Gees First, Horizontal, Idea, Odessa (their "Pepper" with some instrumental filler), Cucumber Castle, Trafalgar and 2 Years On - are marvelous records of consistently original songwriting, beautiful harmonies and and gorgeous (if sometimes overwrought) arrangements, with an output to rival most of their peers. The disco stuff, which I abhorred at the time, now sounds quite fresh and rich to me, one after another uncanny tune that seem somehow made "inevitable" in the writing and producing - that Saturday Night Fever run of singles took over the pop melodic world as they completely re-invented themselves for another era. The image is ridiculous, but the music making is quite beautiful.

A huge falloff in the spotty later years (the 80's were rather unkind to the surviving 60's groups in general), but I place their overall output over four decades just under the first tier greats, certainly in the top 20. I never tire of listening to them and treasure their peculiar gift for writing great tunes (and they are another band whose sound is so distinct that it's impossible to cover). Not just the singles folks. Check out those early albums and listen to the songwriting. Melodramatic, yes, but also striving for a great, emotional swell of sound. That fraternal thing in the distinctive harmonies that render as a single voice. I recognize that it might just be that it's the pop music I grew up on, one by one as they came out, and simply has no relevance to contemporary audio imaginations or senses of pleasure - I almost never see them mentioned around here, for example. where harmonies and great tunes are welcomed at the door and truly appreciated. The hip/unhip thing is something I care little about, but I know that's a huge part of the problem in appreciating the greatness of their achievement.

Here's to you, Barry, Robin, and Maurice.

I agree with this 100%. To be at 95 with Bob Marley above them is quite frankly, f***ed. Barry shares the record for most consecutive number ones with Lennon/McCartney, he wrote arguably the most popular mainstream country song of all time (Islands in the Stream), opened up Streisand to a whole new audience and revitalized her career + Kenny Rogers + Dionne Warwicke. 50 years of work spanning blues, psychedelia, folk rock, R&B, blue-eyed soul and country and they are 95th???! How ridiculous. They are the only group in HISTORY to write, produce and record those 6 Number #1's. Barry Gibb had 5 top ten songs at the SAME TIME at one point. Wayne Newton recorded one of his songs he wrote in Australia at 18. That's incredible. His songs were Number #1 for 27 out of 37 weeks from 1977 to 1978. Very unappreciated and unnecessarily critically maligned group. Wordsmiths in the true sense of the word.

A fabulous band, although much of their 60s work seems to get forgotten about due to their 'disco reawakening' in the 70s. They wrote so much material and gave so many of their songs away to other artists – Cowman Milk Your Cow is one of the great 'forgotten' songs of the 60s, sung excellently by the majestic Adam Faith, but written by the Bee Gees. And Four Faces West, sung by an 11-year-old Lori Balmer in 1968. Check out that tune, immense for a girl of that age to sing like that.

Was Harry Braff the Bee Gees' only real stab at the version of a surf-hot rod tune? A fantastic track, although a very British incarnate of the genre, not too dissimilar to The Majority's 'Shut Em Down in London Town'.

[Shady]

Rolling Stone's opinion means nothing.

[SMiLE-addict]

I nearly stopped reading when I saw Taylor Swift's name, even if it was in the low 90s.

A bit off-topic, but I've always gotten an impression Taylor Swift has a lot more talent than she lets show. I'd really like to see her do some sort of "experimental" album, I really think she could pull off an interesting one if she really wanted to.

Anyway, while I'll probably want to quibble with some of the rankings in the list, overall I think it's pretty good. Even some of the artists I'm not all that fond of (like, Dylan) I can appreciate their influence and talent even though it's not my thing, and so I can understand why they're at a certain point on the list.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

A bit off-topic, but I've always gotten an impression Taylor Swift has a lot more talent than she lets show. I'd really like to see her do some sort of "experimental" album, I really think she could pull off an interesting one if she really wanted to.

She really does. I'm not like a fan or anything, and she seems to have a massive ego, but I've heard enough cover versions (some in completely different genres) to prove to me that she does have good writing chops.

[the captain]

A bit off-topic, but I've always gotten an impression Taylor Swift has a lot more talent than she lets show. I'd really like to see her do some sort of "experimental" album, I really think she could pull off an interesting one if she really wanted to.

She really does. I'm not like a fan or anything, and she seems to have a massive ego, but I've heard enough cover versions (some in completely different genres) to prove to me that she does have good writing chops.

I am (somewhat) a fan. And while I understand quibbling with her making a best-of list, she's absolutely a legit songwriting talent. This isn't someone who's just a "pretty face" positioned to cross-market Nickelodeon tween shows or branded lunch boxes.

[Kurosawa]

I love how they include Jay Z and Kanye West but exclude the Gershwins, Gene Clark, and so many others.

and I'm reminded of how they put Charlie Sheen on the cover of the issue with the C50 article.


fukk RS

Exactly. It's just Jann Wenner trying desperately to be hip. F him and f RS.  I would say the guy needs his butt kicked, but that's abuse of feet.

[Ron]

I've never been able to understand lists like this.... I guess ultimately you just have to conclude that they're completely useless.  It's the only way I can make any logical sense of it.


Just a couple throwaway thoughts about it.... I basically agree with a lot of the top 10, but like a poster above said, I've had many other songwriters move me much more than several of the top ten, so what is this even based on?  I love Carol King but in my world she's not even in the same league as Merle Haggard, and I'm not sure she even sold more records than Merle. 

Or guys like Woodie Guthrie, hell he started the foundation of what guys like Dylan did, yet Dylan's #1 (maybe deservedly so) but Guthrie's #28?  How?

Also we're giving props to Tom T. Hall but completely ignore the completely superior Roger Miller?  Tom T. Hall still wishes he was as talented as Roger Miller.  Where's Marty Robbins?  Where's Bill Monroe?  We give Johnny Cash #43, and yeah he was of course great, but there's 100 songwriters in Nashville who wrote better songs than Johnny ever dreamed of, and he'd be the first to tell you that if he was still alive.  Hell you could make a bigger case for Ira Louvin being on the list than Johnny Cash!  Waylon Jennings was 5X the songwriter Johnny Cash was, you could argue that Waylon was more talented and did more than even Kristoferson... but he's not one of L.A.'s favorites so we leave Waylon off. 

Whole list is pointless. 

[Ron]

I nearly stopped reading when I saw Taylor Swift's name, even if it was in the low 90s.

A bit off-topic, but I've always gotten an impression Taylor Swift has a lot more talent than she lets show.

This This This 100% This.

I noticed it when she first started out.  Remember she started in country, and obviously I'm a big country fan, when she first came out she was a country darling.  So she was on all the shows, and it was obvious to me that the girl is extremely intelligent.  Like next level intelligent.  VERY intelligent.  So intelligent that in my opinion, she's constantly working an angle with the entire room. 

First off, she's a very talented songwriter.  She's young, so her songs are perfect... for people her age.  That leaves most of us out... but ultimately, if a 16 year old girl has an ability to write songs that other 16 year old girls relate to in a big, huge way, that makes her a really great songwriter in my opinion.  Her music has matured because she has, but nobody should think for a minute that this woman (now) isn't incredibly talented.  She's not just a lyricist either, she writes the whole shebang and I think if people looked at the clever stuff she's done objectively... they'd have to admit that she's written solid, good songs, many, many times over already. 

One of the most incredible things she did to help launch her career was name her first big single "Tim McGraw".  So if you've never heard it, it's about how she hopes when her ex hears a Tim McGraw song, he thinks of her.  Well, the novelty of the title made the song a big hit... and then they set up this performance somewhere where it was the single of the year or whatever, and when the song was done, she walked out into the audience, shook Tim McGraw's hand and said "Hi, I'm Taylor... Nice to meet you".

The girl is a marketing GENIUS, the last time someone did what she's done in Country was Dolly Parton... also a great songwriter, also a marketing genius. 

You can tell it too when she accepts awards; it's hard for her to completely fake it when she gets an award, she always goes a little over the top pretending to be shocked or modest... but she can't quite pull it off because her massive ego pokes through a little bit when they hand her something shiny.

She's definitely someone to watch; talented, genius level in many ways... driven, intelligent, and beautiful.  I love watching people like that, you can learn so much about humanity watching people like her. 

[Awesoman]

Criminal omissions:

Peter Gabriel
David Crosby
Isely-Jasper-Isely
Stephen Stills
Neil Finn
k. d. lang

Toss Robert Lamm in there...but there was no way he's get in.