How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime?

[Amanda Hart]

Is abuse apologism as rampant in general society as it is among Beach Boys fans?

I don't think anyone is trying to apologize away Murry's abuse; but rather trying to paint a realistic picture of a person to illustrate how he was able to be both a physically and emotionally abusive father and also loving, caring and this sons' biggest fan. He clearly was all of those things at once and learning about how and why can be one way to stop the cycle of abuse from continuing from generation to generation.

[Lee Marshall]

I don't think that describes Murry.  The Beach Boys made it because of Murry.  They'd have been nothing w/o his guidance and music biz knowhow.  He MADE them and any degree of talent that either Brian or Carl had they got entirely from Murry.  Dennis got none because Dennis was utterly stupid and a lost cause...A veritable waste of time.

Audree consumed ever-so-many beverages in an effort to make Murry's caring, loving nature and the hero-worship of the group stop.  [at least temporarily]  He was over the top with his effusive wonderfulness.

Murry cared soley about Murry.  'IT' was ALL about Murry.  Murry's lucky to have lived as long as he did.  REALLY lucky.

Murry, Mike and then Gene...Brian's ship had surely come in.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh ya...and when he literally sold Brian out...'cause Murry KNEW that the gravy train had left the station and that the sale of Sea of Tunes was a wise thing to do...THAT demonstarted entirely what a peach of a dad he was[N'T]

[SMiLE Brian]

Wise words Lee!

[Amanda Hart]

Over the top sarcasm aside, I honestly believe Murry did think he was helping his kids. He was a huge narcissist and his thinking was probably along the lines of "I'm a strong man, because my father pushed me, if I want my boys to be strong like me, I need to push them". Obviously he was horribly misguided, and sometimes did make selfish decisions, but he was a guy who thought he had all the answers and tried to force his will on his kids because he believed that was what was best for them.

[Lee Marshall]

I  guess you 'might' be right partly Amanda.  Murry may have 'thought', in his own unusual and convoluted way, that he was doing the right thing but he was a sicko..  He pounded on those boys like they were meat.  He was both a bully and an incessant whiner...a close to constant cry baby who set the standard for wallowing at length in his own bed.  Whoa, whoa poor poor pitiful me.  You did this to ME.  I got the short end of the stick.  Triumphs were his alone.  The man needed help and he was not able or qualified to be the man you appear to think he was.

Maybe he became the way he was due to the way he was handled as a child.  Maybe Brian did too.  I'm going to give Murry a failing grade on every count as a parent.  Other than supplying a strong swimming sperm cell [and his interest in music...notice I didn't call it his love of music because Murry had no clue about how to love anything]...the guy was close to useless...a broken unit.  I'd say that Brian and his brothers pretty much achieved what they did and honed their various talents in SPITE of him.

[Emily]

I gotta say, strong as Add Some's take is, it equals mine. I don't actually think it's hyperbolic at all. I think it's right on.
I don't think there's any reason to believe that the Wilson bros would not have been successful if they had been adopted at birth by a decent human.
I also don't see any reason to interpret abuse as an expression of love. I read the letter, I heard the tape, I've read the interviews, I don't hear love there. I hear abuse.

[Emily]

Is abuse apologism as rampant in general society as it is among Beach Boys fans?

I don't think anyone is trying to apologize away Murry's abuse; but rather trying to paint a realistic picture of a person to illustrate how he was able to be both a physically and emotionally abusive father and also loving, caring and this sons' biggest fan. He clearly was all of those things at once and learning about how and why can be one way to stop the cycle of abuse from continuing from generation to generation.

By the way, Amanda, I changed the post you quoted above soon after I wrote it because I realized it was rude. I got a little exercised there and to anyone I've offended, I apologize.

[Andrew G. Doe]

David Leaf, I think in his book, made a very powerful, and tragic, observation. He wrote (I paraphrase slightly), "Brian wrote music to make himself feel better: imagine how bad he must have been feeling to compose such powerful songs".

Not defending him at all, but Murry's notions concerning parenting had to be irrevocably coloured by his having to pull his drunken father off of his mother to stop him beating her, have a stand up fist fight with him and throw him out of the house.

Totally unconnected, but I've always wondered - has anyone ever seen a photo of Murry post 1967 ?

[Amanda Hart]

Not defending him at all, but Murry's notions concerning parenting had to be irrevocably coloured by his having to pull his drunken father off of his mother to stop him beating her, have a stand up fist fight with him and throw him out of the house.

I'm not defending his actions either; there's no situation where hitting anyone, especially a child, is defensible. I think you can actually liken this situation to Adrian Peterson's from last year. Peterson did not think he was abusing his child, he thought he was being a good father by physically disciplining his son in a way that would teach him a lesson and toughen him up. Most people that have been abused carry that to their children because that's how they were raised and they truly believe they turned out to be the person they are because of that style of parenting and want to be that type of parent. Outside of disciplinary issues, parent to child abuse typically stems from feelings or frustration or loss of control.

It's not excusable, but it's explainable, and if we can explain why a person like Murry Wilson parented the way he did, we can educate people and give them the tools they need to avoid abuse in the future. As far as this discussion, I don't think Add Some, Emily and I are ever going to see it eye to eye, because I really do think Murry's abuse came from a place of frustration when he felt like he was losing control of his sons and extremely misguided attempts to toughen them up.

[Komera]

I might as well throw in another two bits.

Murry's idea of parenting was always skewed, and his letter to Brian (which surely he was drunk when he dictated that load, because there were clearly no filters turned on between his brain and mouth) demonstrates just how badly skewed he was.  It is pretty sad to think that he saw Audree's love for the three kids as proof that she no longer loved him.  Reading between the lines, he was clearly lonely and hungry for love, and his attempt to shake Brian's nerves and get the old Brian back was to try and get Brian's love.  The thought was always doomed to failure because what Murry most wanted in a son was a clone of himself, someone who thought identically to himself.  Someone who would forge success through pure hard work and loneliness.  Someone just as lonely as he was.

But at least the three brothers knew Murry did love them.  That is the small gem that can be taken.  A parent trying to turn a kid into a clone is a far better parent than one whose love is conditional, as Grandpa Wilson's was.  I'm not excusing Murry, though.  He did exactly what a lot of abusive parents wind up doing; he emotionally disarmed his kids, made them incapable of withstanding the world.  Only certain kind of people could have taken Murry's parenting and come out stronger.  Alas, if only Murry had any idea that his attempt to make his kids stronger would have the opposite effect.  But of course if he could fathom that, he wouldn't BE Murry.

This comes courtesy of my husband, who as a child suffered at the hands of his step-father.

[Douchepool]

That was an excellent post, Komera. Well said.

[Emily]

I withdraw.

[rasmus skotte]

> There once came one 'Gage' from 'KANtucket'

This 'Old Man' whom 'Douglas' was 'Bugged At'

Gage's boys got a scare...

each time HE made them stare

as he plucked out his glass eye from sucket!<

[Amanda Hart]

I might as well throw in another two bits.

Murry's idea of parenting was always skewed, and his letter to Brian (which surely he was drunk when he dictated that load, because there were clearly no filters turned on between his brain and mouth) demonstrates just how badly skewed he was.  It is pretty sad to think that he saw Audree's love for the three kids as proof that she no longer loved him.  Reading between the lines, he was clearly lonely and hungry for love, and his attempt to shake Brian's nerves and get the old Brian back was to try and get Brian's love.  The thought was always doomed to failure because what Murry most wanted in a son was a clone of himself, someone who thought identically to himself.  Someone who would forge success through pure hard work and loneliness.  Someone just as lonely as he was.

But at least the three brothers knew Murry did love them.  That is the small gem that can be taken.  A parent trying to turn a kid into a clone is a far better parent than one whose love is conditional, as Grandpa Wilson's was.  I'm not excusing Murry, though.  He did exactly what a lot of abusive parents wind up doing; he emotionally disarmed his kids, made them incapable of withstanding the world.  Only certain kind of people could have taken Murry's parenting and come out stronger.  Alas, if only Murry had any idea that his attempt to make his kids stronger would have the opposite effect.  But of course if he could fathom that, he wouldn't BE Murry.

This comes courtesy of my husband, who as a child suffered at the hands of his step-father.

^This. Maybe it just takes someone whose been through it to understand, I'm sorry to hear that your husband had that difficulty though.

[Emily]

I might as well throw in another two bits.

Murry's idea of parenting was always skewed, and his letter to Brian (which surely he was drunk when he dictated that load, because there were clearly no filters turned on between his brain and mouth) demonstrates just how badly skewed he was.  It is pretty sad to think that he saw Audree's love for the three kids as proof that she no longer loved him.  Reading between the lines, he was clearly lonely and hungry for love, and his attempt to shake Brian's nerves and get the old Brian back was to try and get Brian's love.  The thought was always doomed to failure because what Murry most wanted in a son was a clone of himself, someone who thought identically to himself.  Someone who would forge success through pure hard work and loneliness.  Someone just as lonely as he was.

But at least the three brothers knew Murry did love them.  That is the small gem that can be taken.  A parent trying to turn a kid into a clone is a far better parent than one whose love is conditional, as Grandpa Wilson's was.  I'm not excusing Murry, though.  He did exactly what a lot of abusive parents wind up doing; he emotionally disarmed his kids, made them incapable of withstanding the world.  Only certain kind of people could have taken Murry's parenting and come out stronger.  Alas, if only Murry had any idea that his attempt to make his kids stronger would have the opposite effect.  But of course if he could fathom that, he wouldn't BE Murry.

This comes courtesy of my husband, who as a child suffered at the hands of his step-father.

^This. Maybe it just takes someone whose been through it to understand, I'm sorry to hear that your husband had that difficulty though.

I said "I withdraw" because I'm not interested in arguing, but I have to say that it's pretty arrogant to assume that if someone disagrees with you it means they "haven't been through it" so don't "understand". Trust me, people can be abused and NOT end up with a wistful affection and empathy for the abuser.

[Amanda Hart]

I said "I withdraw" because I'm not interested in arguing, but I have to say that it's pretty arrogant to assume that if someone disagrees with you it means they "haven't been through it" so don't "understand". Trust me, people can be abused and NOT end up with a wistful affection and empathy for the abuser.

I wasn't trying to be alienating, and that probably was a little out of bounds for me to post. Maybe I'm not getting my point across well, but it's not some sort of wistful affection, I just wanted to shed light on this not being such a black and white issue.

[Emily]

I said "I withdraw" because I'm not interested in arguing, but I have to say that it's pretty arrogant to assume that if someone disagrees with you it means they "haven't been through it" so don't "understand". Trust me, people can be abused and NOT end up with a wistful affection and empathy for the abuser.

I wasn't trying to be alienating, and that probably was a little out of bounds for me to post. Maybe I'm not getting my point across well, but it's not some sort of wistful affection, I just wanted to shed light on this not being such a black and white issue.

Didn't find an emoji for peace, so I'll just say it: peace.

[Junkstar]

Not to make any excuses for Murry and his abusive nature, but in the new Carl book the author suggests that Murry suffered at the hands of his own father quite badly. Might explain a few things.

[Ian]

That info is not new to that book, Timothy white discussed murry's family history at length in his book

[Vernon Surfer]

That info is not new to that book, Timothy white discussed murry's family history at length in his book

The author of the Carl book does quote the previous source in his book. I just started reading it this afternoon

[Junkstar]

I wasn't claiming this was new info. No slight to White. Just trying to ref something recent.