Why do you hate Mike Love?

[Gerry]

I think that if you are a serious fan of the Beach Boys and that doesn't lead you smack-dab into an admirer of the genius that is Brian Wilson then you at best missing the point, at worst , wasting your time. You might as well follow someone like, well, Oasis. Apparently they have no use for Brian Wilson either.

[rab2591]

you criticized the album in a pretty disrespectful way...so it's not surprising a couple people got offended by it. And no one is crying about it, just pointing out the absolutely childish manner in which you knocked the album.

A turd by any other name is still a turd. And I only mentioned NPP in the first place because YOU used SIP poor sales figures as a reflection of it's musical content. Well NPP has only sold twice as much as that did and that's with all the internet hype and coming off the back of a #3 reunion record. Yet you no doubt think NPP is a great record, so your argument falls apart.

Funny because NPP actually charted....did SIP? Uhhhh no. I used poor sales figures and other examples as a reflection of SIP's musical content - but let's ignore the other examples because they completely refute your point. Coming off the back of a #3 reunion record? One thing missing from NPP that TWGMTR had was the name 'The Beach Boys'....no sh*t it went to #3 with that name, whereas Brian Wilson's name and music is lesser known to the public.

I might add that NPP has deservedly gotten a fair amount of airplay on satellite radio as did TWGMTR whereas SIP garnered absolutely none that I am aware of in this market.

Agreed. This review of SIP from 2011 pretty much sums up all my thoughts about why SIP is atrocious, and (surprise!) it has nothing to do with Brian not being apart of it: https://tuneinrockon.wordpress.com/2011/03/27/when-bad-songs-happen-to-good-bands-5/

The writer sums it up perfectly in one sentence: "Summer In Paradise is a justly forgotten cornucopia of utterly terrible ideas." True that.

[Mike's Beard]

you criticized the album in a pretty disrespectful way...so it's not surprising a couple people got offended by it. And no one is crying about it, just pointing out the absolutely childish manner in which you knocked the album.

A turd by any other name is still a turd. And I only mentioned NPP in the first place because YOU used SIP poor sales figures as a reflection of it's musical content. Well NPP has only sold twice as much as that did and that's with all the internet hype and coming off the back of a #3 reunion record. Yet you no doubt think NPP is a great record, so your argument falls apart.

Funny because NPP actually charted....did SIP? Uhhhh no. I used poor sales figures and other examples as a reflection of SIP's musical content - but let's ignore the other examples because they completely refute your point.

Errrrm, I did argue all your other examples.

Errrrm, your initial argument was that "SIP is a middling latter day release such as KTSA, BB85 and Still Crusin' and would be viewed as such by many Brianistas if Brian had even minimal involvement in it"

The fact that SIP was the first Beach Boys studio album that failed to chart, the fact it had no singles that charted, the fact that it sold less than 10,000 copies upon release, the fact that Beach Boy historians Andrew G Doe and John Tobler called it "the absolute nadir of their recording career", the fact that it isn't sold anymore, the fact that no one in Beach Boys management seems to be eager to re-release it makes it an entirely different animal from KTSA, BB85, and Still Cruisin.

It's completely laughable that you think Brianistas hate SIP because Brian wasn't a part of it.

Do you think even a great Beach Boys record would have sold by the bucketload in 1992? The nostalgia wave had long peaked, the interest from fluking a hit with Kokomo had been and gone, the artistic reappraisal of Brian and the band from a new generation of fans had yet to happen..... by '92 the band as a commercial act was dead in the water.

[guitarfool2002]

Some things I didn't include in the Stars & Stripes mega-post, again comments and corrections/suggestions welcome. And other stuff too.

Besides Willie Nelson's involvement lending the project some record biz and Nashville credibility which allowed the project to go forward, it has also been said that parties investing in the project wanted to ensure Brian Wilson was involved in the project. His name appearing with a producer's credit carried a lot of weight, as it still does. It seems part of the early negotiations involved getting Brian on board, and part of the give-and-take was first bringing Brian into the fold, which Mike did, and then Brian making the condition that Willie not only come in (as negotiated already by Mike and Joe in return for getting Willie on the record), but also that Willie cover Warmth Of The Sun. Willie agreed, Brian was in, and that was the first session and song they recorded.

After that, as I said, ask around how the other sessions went. Some reports have said Brian was not as hands-on with the production due in part to how the other band members were dealing with him being back in the studio with them. I used the word overcompensation, maybe even patronizing would apply, but it wasn't what might be assumed. Again, just check around and get some more details on that one. See what the process of recording these songs was like after the first sessions at Willie's studio in Texas when they did Warmth Of The Sun, at Brian's request and condition on him getting involved.

Then there were the public appearances, like the Nashville "Fan Fest" which tied into promoting the album. Some have said other band members didn't necessarily want Brian doing much on stage, maybe for fear of him not giving a good performance? Again, ask around on that one too, get some more reports on how all of that went down.

Point is, the project needed backers, funding, all of the usual stuff that Joe and Mike had to do in order to pitch the idea. Getting Brian Wilson's guaranteed involvement no matter how large or small that would be was one of the key points needed to green-light the project. It's similar to what Warner-Reprise did when they signed the BB's after leaving Capitol, it's similar to what CBS did when they signed a deal with the group. Brian had to be involved in making the music or else there was no deal.

So all of the doubters and skeptics, why do you think that is?

Consider Summer In Paradise. No Brian involvement, in fact there may even be reports that Brian was deliberately kept away from some of the sessions...or am I confusing that with another BB's album project? Anyway, Brian had no involvement in that record, no credit to be listed on the album.

And it could be said as a result of that, partially and in conjunction with the quality and marketability of the music itself, SIP couldn't find a major-label distributor to pick up the album. It had to go pretty much the indie/unknown route, "Brother Entertainment" headed by Mike Love rather than Capitol or any other name label or entity.

No Brian, no label. No sales, either.

Fast Forward...The reunion album. Capitol signs the deal, again ensuring Brian Wilson would be involved in the writing, production, and performance on this new Beach Boys album. And tour. And he was, and it went to #3 the week it was released. Major label release, major tour with major promotion, a success all around. Beach Boys with Brian back in the fold along with all surviving members...look at the results.

And that's what some can't seem to grasp or process, whatever the case. You get Brian involved, it's a different deal altogether. It's bargaining power for one thing, not to mention the cache and clout that translates into when negotiating these deals. Stars and Stripes had Brian on board, but beyond the Willie Nelson track, ask around how much hands-on work he actually did on the tracks rather than speculating. Or use your ears - How much beyond Willie's track sounds like a Brian arrangement or production? Or was that the idea? I'm not going to make a definitive claim on that, but just listen.

Point is, SIP couldn't find a label. Stars & Stripes was able to move forward after Brian's involvement was inked into the deal, along with Willie's. TWGMTR was on Capitol as part of a bigger deal. SIP and TWGMTR are the only two new, non-compilation or non-tribute BB's albums of note from 1990 to 2015, and what one notable element did one have that the other did not? Hint: The initials are BW. And look at the results. It wouldn't have happened without that element.

Note the differences in quality and public/sales reception of the two as well.  

[Autotune]

I'm not creating any situation only what I encounter here every day. My point in the previous rant and probably not said very well is that in terms of talent and influence Mike is not even in the same universe as Brian . To compare Mike with Brian in any way ,shape or form is an insult to the legacy of the Beach Boys and music in general.

No one pretends to compare their musical contributions. Nobody here purports that Mike is Brian's musical equal. But the reason for the hatred is not related to people praising Mike's music above Brian. It's about sides taken in a history that is told as the struggle of pure genius against mediocrity. And it's just bullshit.

[Cam Mott]

Didn't S&S v.1 do very well on the Billboard Country charts/sales?

[rab2591]

you criticized the album in a pretty disrespectful way...so it's not surprising a couple people got offended by it. And no one is crying about it, just pointing out the absolutely childish manner in which you knocked the album.

A turd by any other name is still a turd. And I only mentioned NPP in the first place because YOU used SIP poor sales figures as a reflection of it's musical content. Well NPP has only sold twice as much as that did and that's with all the internet hype and coming off the back of a #3 reunion record. Yet you no doubt think NPP is a great record, so your argument falls apart.

Funny because NPP actually charted....did SIP? Uhhhh no. I used poor sales figures and other examples as a reflection of SIP's musical content - but let's ignore the other examples because they completely refute your point.

Errrrm, I did argue all your other examples.

Errrrm, your initial argument was that "SIP is a middling latter day release such as KTSA, BB85 and Still Crusin' and would be viewed as such by many Brianistas if Brian had even minimal involvement in it"

The fact that SIP was the first Beach Boys studio album that failed to chart, the fact it had no singles that charted, the fact that it sold less than 10,000 copies upon release, the fact that Beach Boy historians Andrew G Doe and John Tobler called it "the absolute nadir of their recording career", the fact that it isn't sold anymore, the fact that no one in Beach Boys management seems to be eager to re-release it makes it an entirely different animal from KTSA, BB85, and Still Cruisin.

It's completely laughable that you think Brianistas hate SIP because Brian wasn't a part of it.

Do you think even a great Beach Boys record would have sold by the bucketload in 1992? The nostalgia wave had long peaked, the interest from fluking a hit with Kokomo had been and gone, the artistic reappraisal of Brian and the band from a new generation of fans had yet to happen..... by '92 the band as a commercial act was dead in the water.

I won't even begin to speculate and it's beside the point. Brian fans (and overall Beach Boys fans) dislike SIP because it is "the absolute nadir of their recording career", not because Brian had nothing to do with it.

[Autotune]

But isn't it like a cool thing from Mike to want to have Brian on board for the project he alledgedly led (i.e. S&S)? Wasn't Mike supportive of the Was-produced material (which Mike did not co-write btw)?


If anything, Mike can be blamed for being the one guy in the group to always want to have Brian on board. If anything, he regarded Brian's talent as high as anyone. I suppose this should be cool with some people, but it will be debunked by the end of the day ("Mike wants Brian only on his terms", etc.).

[guitarfool2002]

Do you think even a great Beach Boys record would have sold by the bucketload in 1992? The nostalgia wave had long peaked, the interest from fluking a hit with Kokomo had been and gone, the artistic reappraisal of Brian and the band from a new generation of fans had yet to happen..... by '92 the band as a commercial act was dead in the water.

You've said what I said earlier regarding the 88-97 era. A fluke was taken as a mandate, decisions were made based on the thinking that "The Beach Boys" which fans wanted to see were the Beach Boys that had done Kokomo. Sounds, image, themes, appearances, etc. Kokomo was a #1 hit, as you said it was a fluke of a hit. But some thought it was the way the band needed to go to remain a hit. And that was a critical error, if anyone doubts it just look back on those years.

And, having jumped into the deep end of the Beach Boys pool by 1992 and seeing it all unfold as I described in my rant yesterday on that topic, The Beach Boys as of that time were like Superman and Bizarro, Jekyll and Hyde...etc. Within these same years, the Pet Sounds reissue CD was still influencing people and getting the buzz. The two-fers...all original albums remastered and released with bonus tracks...in some stores I used to frequent, certain titles would sell immediately when they came in. These were popular, and people were rediscovering and discovering these original albums via the two-fers. Then the two-fers got replaced by the single-album reissues. 1993 - The box set gets released, 5-star review in Rolling Stone the same issue Dr Dre and Snoop were on the cover.

The buzz was happening, people were talking and referencing and being influenced by and loving this music again. Or in the case of the Smile material on the box, those who didn't have the bootlegs prior to this were pretty much in awe and wanting to know more. Again, 1992-93, there was the same exact buzz and excitement and recognition that you said wasn't there.

And the Beach Boys as a commercial entity, mostly led by Mike (although Carl vetoed some potentially great ideas too), chose to keep finding the follow-up to Kokomo or at least to keep the Kokomo Tiki-torches lit by doing things a certain way to appeal to the public. Full House, etc too. All the while the credibility and acknowledgement and acceptance was right there for the taking. People who bought Pet Sounds or the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey two-fer might go looking for a Beach Boys album, see Summer In Paradise in the bins and perhaps buy it, and it was Superman versus Bizarro.

It's all in retrospect now, but how did those choices end up working out?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

But isn't it like a cool thing from Mike to want to have Brian on board for the project he alledgedly led (i.e. S&S)? Wasn't Mike supportive of the Was-produced material (which Mike did not co-write btw)?


If anything, Mike can be blamed for being the one guy in the group to always want to have Brian on board. If anything, he regarded Brian's talent as high as anyone. I suppose this should be cool with some people, but it will be debunked by the end of the day ("Mike wants Brian only on his terms", etc.).

I'd argue it's because he knows Brian's involvement boosts sales. Hence the deplorable "Brian is Back!" Campaign

[guitarfool2002]

But isn't it like a cool thing from Mike to want to have Brian on board for the project he alledgedly led (i.e. S&S)? Wasn't Mike supportive of the Was-produced material (which Mike did not co-write btw)?


If anything, Mike can be blamed for being the one guy in the group to always want to have Brian on board. If anything, he regarded Brian's talent as high as anyone. I suppose this should be cool with some people, but it will be debunked by the end of the day ("Mike wants Brian only on his terms", etc.).

Did you miss what I wrote about this, are you just ignoring it so you can apply the term "allegedly", or is it a case of not being familiar with pitching ideas for a project, getting backers, and negotiating the terms?

Brian's involvement was part of the negotiations from when Joe first mentioned Willie Nelson to Mike as they were planning it out, and Brian's participation was essential for some of the backers to invest in the project so it could move forward. Simple as that. No Brian, no backing, no project.

[Mike's Beard]

The buzz was happening, people were talking and referencing and being influenced by and loving this music again. Or in the case of the Smile material on the box, those who didn't have the bootlegs prior to this were pretty much in awe and wanting to know more. Again, 1992-93, there was the same exact buzz and excitement and recognition that you said wasn't there.

The buzz may have been building but clearly in 1992 that had yet to translate into upward swings in sales of new material. That would take the 30 Years box, the Pet Sounds box and a raised profile of Brian Wilson after the whole Landy thing. Even then Stars & Stripes sold very little (and has rarely been in print since it's initial release). Personally, I think despite not sinking to the lows of the Stamosied Forever it is a much poorer record than SIP overall.

[Cam Mott]

So Brian was or was not a Producer with Joe on S & S v.1 doing the creative and content work that Producers do?  Is the Producer credit a fabrication and was Brian pretending on the video?  I may not remember the video too well but memory is it showed Brian at work and seemingly enjoying himself.

[elnombre]

The buzz was happening, people were talking and referencing and being influenced by and loving this music again. Or in the case of the Smile material on the box, those who didn't have the bootlegs prior to this were pretty much in awe and wanting to know more. Again, 1992-93, there was the same exact buzz and excitement and recognition that you said wasn't there.

The buzz may have been building but clearly in 1992 that had yet to translate into upward swings in sales of new material. That would take the 30 Years box, the Pet Sounds box and a raised profile of Brian Wilson after the whole Landy thing. Even then Stars & Stripes sold very little (and has rarely been in print since it's initial release). Personally, I think despite not sinking to the lows of the Stamosied Forever it is a much poorer record than SIP overall.

Well, that leads us back to your own question - would a good album of new BBs material have sold well in 1992? If you're acknowledging that there was indeed a buzz around the band's, shall we say, more serious side then I think the answer is most likely yes. Lot's of 60s influenced bands doing very well, springing up, having hit albums, name-checking....this was an age where indie respectability would have sold. Cartoonish plastic sounding power ballads and rap attempts which frankly were at least 5 years out of date by the time SIP was released, not so much.

Everyone should have spent a little more time looking at the La's and a little less at Bart Simpson and Vanilla Ice.

[ontor pertawst]

So Brian was or was not a Producer with Joe on S & S v.1 doing the creative and content work that Producers do?  Is the Producer credit a fabrication and was Brian pretending on the video?  I may not remember the video too well but memory is it showed Brian at work and seemingly enjoying himself.

When Mike Love brought JT in, Cam... do you think they talked about Stars and Stripes...OR discussed it first? I'm curious. There's a big difference and we have to get our terminology straight.

[Autotune]

But isn't it like a cool thing from Mike to want to have Brian on board for the project he alledgedly led (i.e. S&S)? Wasn't Mike supportive of the Was-produced material (which Mike did not co-write btw)?


If anything, Mike can be blamed for being the one guy in the group to always want to have Brian on board. If anything, he regarded Brian's talent as high as anyone. I suppose this should be cool with some people, but it will be debunked by the end of the day ("Mike wants Brian only on his terms", etc.).

Did you miss what I wrote about this, are you just ignoring it so you can apply the term "allegedly", or is it a case of not being familiar with pitching ideas for a project, getting backers, and negotiating the terms?

Brian's involvement was part of the negotiations from when Joe first mentioned Willie Nelson to Mike as they were planning it out, and Brian's participation was essential for some of the backers to invest in the project so it could move forward. Simple as that. No Brian, no backing, no project.

I didn't miss it. I read the whole post through. All 4000 words of it. And I followed the making of it and the interviews back then.

Will you submit that Mike's sole reason for getting Brian involved was getting backers for the album? You Believe that otherwise they would have done without Brian? They they had been working together, WITH Brian, since like a year before.

I will not defend S&S. It's the biggest turd of an album Brian Wilson ever produced.

[Cam Mott]

So Brian was or was not a Producer with Joe on S & S v.1 doing the creative and content work that Producers do?  Is the Producer credit a fabrication and was Brian pretending on the video?  I may not remember the video too well but memory is it showed Brian at work and seemingly enjoying himself.

When Mike Love brought JT in, Cam... do you think they talked about Stars and Stripes...OR discussed it first? I'm curious. There's a big difference and we have to get our terminology straight.

I would imagine Haddad talked to Mike about his idea and Mike discussed it with the rest of the band.

[guitarfool2002]

So Brian was or was not a Producer with Joe on S & S v.1 doing the creative and content work that Producers do?  Is the Producer credit a fabrication and was Brian pretending on the video?  I may not remember the video too well but memory is it showed Brian at work and seemingly enjoying himself.

When Mike Love brought JT in, Cam... do you think they talked about Stars and Stripes...OR discussed it first? I'm curious. There's a big difference and we have to get our terminology straight.

I would imagine Haddad talked to Mike about his idea and Mike discussed it with the rest of the band.

Again, did you bother to read my mega-post, at least the first 350 words or so? Haddad told Joe Thomas he thought it would be a good idea to get Hank Jr to cover Help Me Rhonda. Joe got in touch with Mike, and they talked it over, the Hank Jr thing wasn't the deal-clincher, but when Joe mentioned Willie Nelson, Mike in return called Brian who agreed to work if Willie cut WOTS, etc and so on and so forth.

Where do you get the idea that Haddad was the one who went to Mike when Joe was the one who took the idea to Mike and then started negotiating and planning with Mike? It's not that complex of an issue, Cam.

[guitarfool2002]

The buzz was happening, people were talking and referencing and being influenced by and loving this music again. Or in the case of the Smile material on the box, those who didn't have the bootlegs prior to this were pretty much in awe and wanting to know more. Again, 1992-93, there was the same exact buzz and excitement and recognition that you said wasn't there.

The buzz may have been building but clearly in 1992 that had yet to translate into upward swings in sales of new material. That would take the 30 Years box, the Pet Sounds box and a raised profile of Brian Wilson after the whole Landy thing. Even then Stars & Stripes sold very little (and has rarely been in print since it's initial release). Personally, I think despite not sinking to the lows of the Stamosied Forever it is a much poorer record than SIP overall.

Well, that leads us back to your own question - would a good album of new BBs material have sold well in 1992? If you're acknowledging that there was indeed a buzz around the band's, shall we say, more serious side then I think the answer is most likely yes. Lot's of 60s influenced bands doing very well, springing up, having hit albums, name-checking....this was an age where indie respectability would have sold. Cartoonish plastic sounding power ballads and rap attempts which frankly were at least 5 years out of date by the time SIP was released, not so much.

Everyone should have spent a little more time looking at the La's and a little less at Bart Simpson and Vanilla Ice.

Bingo. Not just Lee Mavers, but the numerous alternative bands and artists who were talking about and name-checking The Beach Boys, Brian, Pet Sounds, etc. It reached a point that by 1994-95, at least in Boston, there was hardly a review printed in the Tab or other papers and local mags that didn't name-check the BB's or Brian if a band featured a song with vocal harmonies. It was actually something of a running joke among a few of us who actively read and followed that stuff.

The buzz was *there*, but it felt like those calling the shots for The Beach Boys were completely unaware of it. You're right, Bart Simpson, WTF?

[Cam Mott]

So Brian was or was not a Producer with Joe on S & S v.1 doing the creative and content work that Producers do?  Is the Producer credit a fabrication and was Brian pretending on the video?  I may not remember the video too well but memory is it showed Brian at work and seemingly enjoying himself.

When Mike Love brought JT in, Cam... do you think they talked about Stars and Stripes...OR discussed it first? I'm curious. There's a big difference and we have to get our terminology straight.

I would imagine Haddad talked to Mike about his idea and Mike discussed it with the rest of the band.

Again, did you bother to read my mega-post, at least the first 350 words or so? Haddad told Joe Thomas he thought it would be a good idea to get Hank Jr to cover Help Me Rhonda. Joe got in touch with Mike, and they talked it over, the Hank Jr thing wasn't the deal-clincher, but when Joe mentioned Willie Nelson, Mike in return called Brian who agreed to work if Willie cut WOTS, etc and so on and so forth.

Where do you get the idea that Haddad was the one who went to Mike when Joe was the one who took the idea to Mike and then started negotiating and planning with Mike? It's not that complex of an issue, Cam.

OK, Joe talked to Mike about Haddad's idea.  I assume Mike discussed it with the band for their approval.  Was Brian a Producer?

[guitarfool2002]

But isn't it like a cool thing from Mike to want to have Brian on board for the project he alledgedly led (i.e. S&S)? Wasn't Mike supportive of the Was-produced material (which Mike did not co-write btw)?


If anything, Mike can be blamed for being the one guy in the group to always want to have Brian on board. If anything, he regarded Brian's talent as high as anyone. I suppose this should be cool with some people, but it will be debunked by the end of the day ("Mike wants Brian only on his terms", etc.).

Did you miss what I wrote about this, are you just ignoring it so you can apply the term "allegedly", or is it a case of not being familiar with pitching ideas for a project, getting backers, and negotiating the terms?

Brian's involvement was part of the negotiations from when Joe first mentioned Willie Nelson to Mike as they were planning it out, and Brian's participation was essential for some of the backers to invest in the project so it could move forward. Simple as that. No Brian, no backing, no project.

I didn't miss it. I read the whole post through. All 4000 words of it. And I followed the making of it and the interviews back then.

Will you submit that Mike's sole reason for getting Brian involved was getting backers for the album? You Believe that otherwise they would have done without Brian? They they had been working together, WITH Brian, since like a year before.

I will not defend S&S. It's the biggest turd of an album Brian Wilson ever produced.

I won't submit a sole reason for any of that, because it's not a sole reason situation. Was Brian's involvement in the project a key factor in getting the project from idea to pitch to actual reality? YES times 1,000. If anyone doubts that, they're ignoring the facts of what happened. The people who would be funding it all but demanded Brian's name on the credits. It gave automatic credibility that SIP for one lacked, especially anything labeled "Beach Boys". Still holds true today. No Brian, no project, period. Assume what you like about Mike's reasons, but that was a major factor.

Mike and Brian were writing songs when Don Was and Andy Paley were on board, yes. What was Carl's reason for scuppering that arrangement? Because it seemed everyone from Mike to Brian to Was to Paley was into cutting the song Soul Searchin and moving forward with it as a release, then Carl balked. Why did Carl also nix the idea of the orchestral Pet Sounds tour that was on the table? Ask around, see what folks say about those issues.

Tell us how much of that record you think Brian was hands-on with the production and arranging.

[guitarfool2002]

So Brian was or was not a Producer with Joe on S & S v.1 doing the creative and content work that Producers do?  Is the Producer credit a fabrication and was Brian pretending on the video?  I may not remember the video too well but memory is it showed Brian at work and seemingly enjoying himself.

When Mike Love brought JT in, Cam... do you think they talked about Stars and Stripes...OR discussed it first? I'm curious. There's a big difference and we have to get our terminology straight.

I would imagine Haddad talked to Mike about his idea and Mike discussed it with the rest of the band.

Again, did you bother to read my mega-post, at least the first 350 words or so? Haddad told Joe Thomas he thought it would be a good idea to get Hank Jr to cover Help Me Rhonda. Joe got in touch with Mike, and they talked it over, the Hank Jr thing wasn't the deal-clincher, but when Joe mentioned Willie Nelson, Mike in return called Brian who agreed to work if Willie cut WOTS, etc and so on and so forth.

Where do you get the idea that Haddad was the one who went to Mike when Joe was the one who took the idea to Mike and then started negotiating and planning with Mike? It's not that complex of an issue, Cam.

OK, Joe talked to Mike about Haddad's idea.  I assume Mike discussed it with the band for their approval.  Was Brian a Producer?

Maybe you'll have to wait for Mike's book to find out how much hands-on producing Brian did or didn't do for the project if that even gets mentioned.

As I already said, the most invested Brian was in the project was The Warmth Of The Sun which was the first song and the catalyst that got the ball rolling, maybe give your ears a chance to weigh in and listen to the other tracks to see if any of the answers become clear through the music. I think Warmth Of The Sun is a standout track, my own opinion it's the best thing on the whole album and I think there are many fans who agree. What do you think?

[Autotune]

But isn't it like a cool thing from Mike to want to have Brian on board for the project he alledgedly led (i.e. S&S)? Wasn't Mike supportive of the Was-produced material (which Mike did not co-write btw)?


If anything, Mike can be blamed for being the one guy in the group to always want to have Brian on board. If anything, he regarded Brian's talent as high as anyone. I suppose this should be cool with some people, but it will be debunked by the end of the day ("Mike wants Brian only on his terms", etc.).

Did you miss what I wrote about this, are you just ignoring it so you can apply the term "allegedly", or is it a case of not being familiar with pitching ideas for a project, getting backers, and negotiating the terms?

Brian's involvement was part of the negotiations from when Joe first mentioned Willie Nelson to Mike as they were planning it out, and Brian's participation was essential for some of the backers to invest in the project so it could move forward. Simple as that. No Brian, no backing, no project.

I didn't miss it. I read the whole post through. All 4000 words of it. And I followed the making of it and the interviews back then.

Will you submit that Mike's sole reason for getting Brian involved was getting backers for the album? You Believe that otherwise they would have done without Brian? They they had been working together, WITH Brian, since like a year before.

I will not defend S&S. It's the biggest turd of an album Brian Wilson ever produced.

I won't submit a sole reason for any of that, because it's not a sole reason situation. Was Brian's involvement in the project a key factor in getting the project from idea to pitch to actual reality? YES times 1,000. If anyone doubts that, they're ignoring the facts of what happened. The people who would be funding it all but demanded Brian's name on the credits. It gave automatic credibility that SIP for one lacked, especially anything labeled "Beach Boys". Still holds true today. No Brian, no project, period. Assume what you like about Mike's reasons, but that was a major factor.

Mike and Brian were writing songs when Don Was and Andy Paley were on board, yes. What was Carl's reason for scuppering that arrangement? Because it seemed everyone from Mike to Brian to Was to Paley was into cutting the song Soul Searchin and moving forward with it as a release, then Carl balked. Why did Carl also nix the idea of the orchestral Pet Sounds tour that was on the table? Ask around, see what folks say about those issues.

Tell us how much of that record you think Brian was hands-on with the production and arranging.

My point is that, as you mention, Brian and Mike and the rest of the guys were already collaborating; it wasn't a stretch for Mike to look for Brian to produce it. Regarding Carl's reasons for nixing some of those ideas, I've heard several reasons-- none of them entirely convincing... perhaps it was a combination of different reasons. But if it's a rethorical question, go ahead and answer it yourself.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

You know I really don't get why some of you waste your time coming to this board. People like drbeachboy and Mike's beard(you know what that makes you right?) This whole Brian vs. Mike thing is futile. It's art vs. commerce. I have always subscribed to Dennis' thoughts about Brian;"He is the Beach Boys,we're just his fucking messengers". I do think Mike gets blamed too much but his personality encourages it. Things like sitting there when Carl got punched by Rocky Pamplin or saying that Brian's first solo album was sh*t in the Goldmine article. Doing the 1981 Long Beach concert without Carl which did a fair amount of harm to their reputation. The cheerleaders onstage in the '90's, yes I know that the other Boys signed off on it but Mike came up with the idea.By the way, comparing SIP with those other albums is just sheer ignorance and bad taste. SIP would've been a better if Brian had been involved with it. Go listen to the Sea of Tunes stuff if you are wondering who the Beach Boys were. Somebody else knocked Brian's solo albums, only in America would people criticize an artist of Brian's magnitude. I don't know if you take Mike's side because you feel somebody has to or you really believe it, but I wish you a lot of luck.

But here it's you purporting this Brian vs. Mike bullshit. Why are there supposed to be two factions? Why is it an x vs. y situation? It is you and others making it that way. Reality is more intricate and subtle than that.

Who are you trying to kid?

1. Mike makes anti-Brian comments publicly and people here read them, you've read and commented on them.

2. Mike has initiated lawsuits against Brian (and Al) and I'm not just talking about the song writing credits lawsuit.  Are you unaware of these lawsuits?  I am pretty sure you've commented in those threads as well.

I don't think people here are making it that way.  I think Mike is making it that way.  Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is Mike.
 

I'm pretty sure you're absolutely right on all counts, EOL, and the myKe luHv apologists just keep on getting their backs closer to that wall of no quarter.  

[guitarfool2002]

But isn't it like a cool thing from Mike to want to have Brian on board for the project he alledgedly led (i.e. S&S)? Wasn't Mike supportive of the Was-produced material (which Mike did not co-write btw)?


If anything, Mike can be blamed for being the one guy in the group to always want to have Brian on board. If anything, he regarded Brian's talent as high as anyone. I suppose this should be cool with some people, but it will be debunked by the end of the day ("Mike wants Brian only on his terms", etc.).

Did you miss what I wrote about this, are you just ignoring it so you can apply the term "allegedly", or is it a case of not being familiar with pitching ideas for a project, getting backers, and negotiating the terms?

Brian's involvement was part of the negotiations from when Joe first mentioned Willie Nelson to Mike as they were planning it out, and Brian's participation was essential for some of the backers to invest in the project so it could move forward. Simple as that. No Brian, no backing, no project.

I didn't miss it. I read the whole post through. All 4000 words of it. And I followed the making of it and the interviews back then.

Will you submit that Mike's sole reason for getting Brian involved was getting backers for the album? You Believe that otherwise they would have done without Brian? They they had been working together, WITH Brian, since like a year before.

I will not defend S&S. It's the biggest turd of an album Brian Wilson ever produced.

I won't submit a sole reason for any of that, because it's not a sole reason situation. Was Brian's involvement in the project a key factor in getting the project from idea to pitch to actual reality? YES times 1,000. If anyone doubts that, they're ignoring the facts of what happened. The people who would be funding it all but demanded Brian's name on the credits. It gave automatic credibility that SIP for one lacked, especially anything labeled "Beach Boys". Still holds true today. No Brian, no project, period. Assume what you like about Mike's reasons, but that was a major factor.

Mike and Brian were writing songs when Don Was and Andy Paley were on board, yes. What was Carl's reason for scuppering that arrangement? Because it seemed everyone from Mike to Brian to Was to Paley was into cutting the song Soul Searchin and moving forward with it as a release, then Carl balked. Why did Carl also nix the idea of the orchestral Pet Sounds tour that was on the table? Ask around, see what folks say about those issues.

Tell us how much of that record you think Brian was hands-on with the production and arranging.

My point is that, as you mention, Brian and Mike and the rest of the guys were already collaborating; it wasn't a stretch for Mike to look for Brian to produce it. Regarding Carl's reasons for nixing some of those ideas, I've heard several reasons-- none of them entirely convincing... perhaps it was a combination of different reasons. But if it's a rethorical question, go ahead and answer it yourself.

It's not a rhetorical question, so what's your take on it?