The miracl of WIBN(TLA)

[Marty Castillo]

Uh...you know it was Dennis who took WIBNTLA off the Surf's Up album, right? CARL pissed him off, not Mike..though it seems you think Love had something o do with it (he did not)...and, it is Dennis who sings the wonderful tag line on the end of "It's OK", so he must have liked it (more than Sail On Sailer, which he bailed out of) Personally, I think WIBNTLA is mediocure (and the MIC version mercifully cuts it back from the full version).   He also was kicked out of The Beach Boys several times, so he got some distance-trouble was, Dennis was a manic drug addicted alcoholic. His disease is what took the life out of him. The one-octive croon his voice was reduced to was attributed to cociane, etc...

Uh...(God that smug modern prefix annoys me) yes I am aware that it was a dispute between he and Carl that was the main reason for Dennis's impulsive and regrettable yanking of his two superb tracks from SU. One factor in Dennis' gradual disillusionment during the '70s, however, was extreme jealousy of his brilliant offerings from Mike and Bruce, mainly (even Al, who sided with the other "clean livers" and later regretted it). He had to fight to get his material on the albums, and by the time of his last best efforts (Love Surrounds Me, Baby Blue etc.) the situation had turned around and he wanted to keep them for his solo offerings but was pressured into letting them be put onto albums that he despised wholeheartedly, such as MIU and L.A. WIBNTLA is patently NOT mediocre IMO. He hated Mike with a passion, for good reason IMO. Obviously he was drug & alcohol-dependent and an unreliable individual, but those problems were exacerbated by inter-band tensions and adversity, such as the loss of Brother Studios, his recording and music-making creative refuge and womb.

Essentially, it was everybody's fault, but Dennis.

Typical snarky sarcasm, can always rely on it here. I didn't mean to imply that Dennis's volatility was not a central factor in the inter-band friction and tension, but his innate sensitivity and idealism, often eclipsed by his more crass behavior, masculine desires and acting out, was eventually thwarted by ML's heavy-handed, controlling nature. If you want to be one of the new breed of MK defenders-at-all-costs, that's of course your prerogative but it's basically a currently fashionable, knee-jerk overreaction to the steady Mike-bashing over the years. Basically, his increasing frustration with the relentless drive towards oldies revue status instead of a coexisting continued progressive element, + the loss of his studio, finally drove him off the deep end and into the arms of the subsance demons.

I'm not sure where you pulled the Mike Love defending from my post. You have blamed Carl, Mike, Bruce and Al in your various screeds, yet only give passing blame to his alcohol and substance abuse. Dennis had a serious disease that took his life. The disease also hindered his judgement and musical abilities. He was the ultimate victim of his disease, but that doesn't give him a free pass to act like an asshole. His alcohol and substance dependencies had a lethal effect on his personal relationships and his standing in the band. To diminish the destruction it caused, is to diminish Dennis' struggle. He had immense talent.

Go ahead and keep blaming everyone else...

[Mike's Beard]

Uh...you know it was Dennis who took WIBNTLA off the Surf's Up album, right? CARL pissed him off, not Mike..though it seems you think Love had something o do with it (he did not)...and, it is Dennis who sings the wonderful tag line on the end of "It's OK", so he must have liked it (more than Sail On Sailer, which he bailed out of) Personally, I think WIBNTLA is mediocure (and the MIC version mercifully cuts it back from the full version).   He also was kicked out of The Beach Boys several times, so he got some distance-trouble was, Dennis was a manic drug addicted alcoholic. His disease is what took the life out of him. The one-octive croon his voice was reduced to was attributed to cociane, etc...

Uh...(God that smug modern prefix annoys me) yes I am aware that it was a dispute between he and Carl that was the main reason for Dennis's impulsive and regrettable yanking of his two superb tracks from SU. One factor in Dennis' gradual disillusionment during the '70s, however, was extreme jealousy of his brilliant offerings from Mike and Bruce, mainly (even Al, who sided with the other "clean livers" and later regretted it). He had to fight to get his material on the albums, and by the time of his last best efforts (Love Surrounds Me, Baby Blue etc.) the situation had turned around and he wanted to keep them for his solo offerings but was pressured into letting them be put onto albums that he despised wholeheartedly, such as MIU and L.A. WIBNTLA is patently NOT mediocre IMO. He hated Mike with a passion, for good reason IMO. Obviously he was drug & alcohol-dependent and an unreliable individual, but those problems were exacerbated by inter-band tensions and adversity, such as the loss of Brother Studios, his recording and music-making creative refuge and womb.

Essentially, it was everybody's fault, but Dennis.

Typical snarky sarcasm, can always rely on it here. I didn't mean to imply that Dennis's volatility was not a central factor in the inter-band friction and tension, but his innate sensitivity and idealism, often eclipsed by his more crass behavior, masculine desires and acting out, was eventually thwarted by ML's heavy-handed, controlling nature. If you want to be one of the new breed of MK defenders-at-all-costs, that's of course your prerogative but it's basically a currently fashionable, knee-jerk overreaction to the steady Mike-bashing over the years. Basically, his increasing frustration with the relentless drive towards oldies revue status instead of a coexisting continued progressive element, + the loss of his studio, finally drove him off the deep end and into the arms of the subsance demons.

Some people just can't accept that the Wilson brothers liked drugs. Trying to blame a guy's alcoholism on Mike is f***ed up even by this board's standards.

[Mike's Beard]

Yes remember folks, the bandmember who collaborated with Dennis more than any other bandmember was also the guy who strove to keep his songs off albums! Makes perfect sense. It had nothing to do with Dennis not turning up for the MIU and KTSA sessions. And it must have been a different Dennis Wilson with songwriting credits on LA Light.

I do agree that WIBNTLA is a very good song and it's a shame it was pulled from Surf's Up.

Are you saying it's unfathomable that there was still some deep-rooted jealousy happening even though some collabs between them still nonetheless happened? Collaborations and jealousy aren't mutually exclusive; do you think they are?

Why would he be jealous? The BBs had 6 (and for a while 7) songwriters in the band, it's only natural that there would be a scrabble at times for each member to get all their songs on an album.

[CenturyDeprived]

Yes remember folks, the bandmember who collaborated with Dennis more than any other bandmember was also the guy who strove to keep his songs off albums! Makes perfect sense. It had nothing to do with Dennis not turning up for the MIU and KTSA sessions. And it must have been a different Dennis Wilson with songwriting credits on LA Light.

I do agree that WIBNTLA is a very good song and it's a shame it was pulled from Surf's Up.

Are you saying it's unfathomable that there was still some deep-rooted jealousy happening even though some collabs between them still nonetheless happened? Collaborations and jealousy aren't mutually exclusive; do you think they are?

Why would he be jealous? The BBs had 6 (and for a while 7) songwriters in the band, it's only natural that there would be a scrabble at times for each member to get all their songs on an album.

Well, having a discussion of the reasons why a person could be jealous is a positive step; there needs to not be some sort of assumption that jealousy was so far-fetched as to be an impossibility.

As for the reasons why? Well, IMO, to name a few: Mike became more and more marginalized around this time of the band; unlike all other band members, he didn't have an instrument to fall back on, and Denny just with a drop of a hat could attain lots of public adoration (much moreso than Mike) based on his looks/charisma alone (talent aside); Denny had great hair, Mike didn't... not to mention, Mike had a giant "victim of underappreciation" chip on his shoulder based on the songwriting crediting snafu from a decade earlier - not Denny's fault, but it probably understandably made the Lovester more sensitive about a lot of unrelated band stuff.

I highly doubt these were all absolute, unequivocal non-issues, as some might like to think, and as you seem to all but imply. Not trying to rip on anyone, just trying to inject a dose of probable reality into the convo.

[GhostyTMRS]

It's always tempting to point to a specific person or cause to explain away someone's descent into drugs. I've known people who were casual users who never had a problem and others in the same family who've gone right off the deep end and destroyed themselves (literally). In one particular case, my friend's main reason for getting wrapped up in drugs was that he REALLY liked the feeling of being high....not necessarily to escape any emotional pain, or because he had a hard life, was depressed, etc (quite the opposite, actually) ...he just liked being high ALL THE DAMN TIME and it killed him.

IMO there's also a strong possibility that same mentality killed Dennis.

[Dove Nested Towers]

Uh...you know it was Dennis who took WIBNTLA off the Surf's Up album, right? CARL pissed him off, not Mike..though it seems you think Love had something o do with it (he did not)...and, it is Dennis who sings the wonderful tag line on the end of "It's OK", so he must have liked it (more than Sail On Sailer, which he bailed out of) Personally, I think WIBNTLA is mediocure (and the MIC version mercifully cuts it back from the full version).   He also was kicked out of The Beach Boys several times, so he got some distance-trouble was, Dennis was a manic drug addicted alcoholic. His disease is what took the life out of him. The one-octive croon his voice was reduced to was attributed to cociane, etc...

Uh...(God that smug modern prefix annoys me) yes I am aware that it was a dispute between he and Carl that was the main reason for Dennis's impulsive and regrettable yanking of his two superb tracks from SU. One factor in Dennis' gradual disillusionment during the '70s, however, was extreme jealousy of his brilliant offerings from Mike and Bruce, mainly (even Al, who sided with the other "clean livers" and later regretted it). He had to fight to get his material on the albums, and by the time of his last best efforts (Love Surrounds Me, Baby Blue etc.) the situation had turned around and he wanted to keep them for his solo offerings but was pressured into letting them be put onto albums that he despised wholeheartedly, such as MIU and L.A. WIBNTLA is patently NOT mediocre IMO. He hated Mike with a passion, for good reason IMO. Obviously he was drug & alcohol-dependent and an unreliable individual, but those problems were exacerbated by inter-band tensions and adversity, such as the loss of Brother Studios, his recording and music-making creative refuge and womb.

Essentially, it was everybody's fault, but Dennis.

Typical snarky sarcasm, can always rely on it here. I didn't mean to imply that Dennis's volatility was not a central factor in the inter-band friction and tension, but his innate sensitivity and idealism, often eclipsed by his more crass behavior, masculine desires and acting out, was eventually thwarted by ML's heavy-handed, controlling nature. If you want to be one of the new breed of MK defenders-at-all-costs, that's of course your prerogative but it's basically a currently fashionable, knee-jerk overreaction to the steady Mike-bashing over the years. Basically, his increasing frustration with the relentless drive towards oldies revue status instead of a coexisting continued progressive element, + the loss of his studio, finally drove him off the deep end and into the arms of the subsance demons.

I'm not sure where you pulled the Mike Love defending from my post. You have blamed Carl, Mike, Bruce and Al in your various screeds, yet only give passing blame to his alcohol and substance abuse. Dennis had a serious disease that took his life. The disease also hindered his judgement and musical abilities. He was the ultimate victim of his disease, but that doesn't give him a free pass to act like an asshole. His alcohol and substance dependencies had a lethal effect on his personal relationships and his standing in the band. To diminish the destruction it caused, is to diminish Dennis' struggle. He had immense talent.

Go ahead and keep blaming everyone else...

I pulled your ML defense from "it's everybody else's fault", ML usually being chief among that "everybody else" who are sometimes blamed for some of his frustrations and addiction problems. And I'll admit (have already) that a lot of it stemmed from his own growing dysfunctionality, a lot of which I think arose from escaping the pain of his childhood experiences with Murry. I think that having to deal with Mike daily, even to listen to his arrogant patter onstage, would drive a lot of people to drink though, whether in this case it was partially to blame or not. I don't give a rat's ass how fashionable it is to "love" him now, and I know that he contributed a great deal musically (in reality, not just in his own mind), but I don't care much for the guy. Peace.