Priore's Claim that The Beatles heard Smile tapes in early 1967

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't think Brian abandoned using the Wreckin' Crew because it wasn't cool. He was simply too burned out to record using that method and he could use the home studio to work at a slower pace. Also, look at the pay rates AGD posted above. They were not affordable for a band whose new albums kept bombing commercially.

I can see the "coolness" factor coming into it post-Monterey and the rise to national prominence of Jimi Hendrix, Big Brother and the Doors. But before that, I don't see why it should have been a big deal either. It wasn't with Pet Sounds and GV. I know pop music was changing in '67 but for the first half of it when SMiLE was supposed to come out I don't think it would have mattered that much.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I'll never understand some fans (Priore) of... whatever band (in this case the BB's) insistence on belittling the accomplishments the Beatles achieved. 

The Beatles were a great band, and Sgt. Pepper's was a great album, they were very talented and extremely creative.  None of that diminishes the Beach Boys or Brian Wilson in any way. 

I think there's a legitimate conversation to be had about whether the Beatles were really *quite* as amazing as everyone states. If you let the same talking points run rampant for decades without question it runs the risk of obscuring history. I also think there are strong arguments against Pepper as the "greatest" album.

That being said, I agree that the people spreading this myth are unfairly trying to discredit the band. It's ironic too, that such an accusation "It's a copy of SMiLE" only serves to insult SMiLE itself and prop up Pepper.  

[SenorPotatoHead]

There's many Beatle related podcasts out there, but my favorite is Something About The Beatles,  hosted by (author) Robert Rodriguez and some other Brit guy whom I can't remember the name of just now.  It is really fun, interesting, thought provoking etc.  (though it has sort of a stupid theme song  )
I would love to see/hear such a podcast devoted to the Beach Boys, and thus far I haven't been able to locate one that exists - so the window of opportunity to be the first is there. 

[37!ws]

There's many Beatle related podcasts out there, but my favorite is Something About The Beatles,  hosted by (author) Robert Rodriguez and some other Brit guy whom I can't remember the name of just now.  It is really fun, interesting, thought provoking etc.  (though it has sort of a stupid theme song  )
I would love to see/hear such a podcast devoted to the Beach Boys, and thus far I haven't been able to locate one that exists - so the window of opportunity to be the first is there. 

I actually thought about doing this and even approached some folks into cohosting it with me, but we could never coordinate schedules to get it off the ground.    (So I had to settle for a classic video game podcast instead.)

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Howie just blew my mind in a way by describing how un "hip" it would have been to be using The Wrecking Crew in the late 60s. We never think in those terms. Kind of puts the Smile saga in perspective.

Also Macca is way more obsessed with Little Richard than anything else.

It may serve to explain why he never came back to it post-Smiley as originally intended. I actually think he gave it up more because he was stuck in the past rather than trying to keep up with the future. He was still concerned about being mainstream/commercial, with the idea of a killer single, instead of keeping focused on the avant-garde album he had in front of him. It was this conflict between crazy album that broke a lot of rules and had a lot of uncommercial pieces (Workshop, comedy, high concept subject matter) and who he had been up to that point (one man hit machine singing about things everyone could relate to) that he couldn't overcome. He made his choice in 1967 by focusing on the singles instead.

[guitarfool2002]

There's many Beatle related podcasts out there, but my favorite is Something About The Beatles,  hosted by (author) Robert Rodriguez and some other Brit guy whom I can't remember the name of just now.  It is really fun, interesting, thought provoking etc.  (though it has sort of a stupid theme song  )
I would love to see/hear such a podcast devoted to the Beach Boys, and thus far I haven't been able to locate one that exists - so the window of opportunity to be the first is there. 

I actually thought about doing this and even approached some folks into cohosting it with me, but we could never coordinate schedules to get it off the ground.    (So I had to settle for a classic video game podcast instead.)

Have you featured the Vectrex in the podcast yet? 

[chaki]

I don't think Brian abandoned using the Wreckin' Crew because it wasn't cool. He was simply too burned out to record using that method and he could use the home studio to work at a slower pace. Also, look at the pay rates AGD posted above. They were not affordable for a band whose new albums kept bombing commercially.

I can see the "coolness" factor coming into it post-Monterey and the rise to national prominence of Jimi Hendrix, Big Brother and the Doors. But before that, I don't see why it should have been a big deal either. It wasn't with Pet Sounds and GV. I know pop music was changing in '67 but for the first half of it when SMiLE was supposed to come out I don't think it would have mattered that much.

Seriously?

Dude was hanging in Laurel Canyon with The Turtles, The Mothers, probably The Croz and all those guys who were all about jamming and being great "players." Using hired guns was very looked down upon by this time. Peter Tork was probably at Brian's house trying to wash the stink of The Monkees off in Brian's pool.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't think Brian abandoned using the Wreckin' Crew because it wasn't cool. He was simply too burned out to record using that method and he could use the home studio to work at a slower pace. Also, look at the pay rates AGD posted above. They were not affordable for a band whose new albums kept bombing commercially.

I can see the "coolness" factor coming into it post-Monterey and the rise to national prominence of Jimi Hendrix, Big Brother and the Doors. But before that, I don't see why it should have been a big deal either. It wasn't with Pet Sounds and GV. I know pop music was changing in '67 but for the first half of it when SMiLE was supposed to come out I don't think it would have mattered that much.

Seriously?

Dude was hanging in Laurel Canyon with The Turtles, The Mothers, probably The Croz and all those guys who were all about jamming and being great "players." Using hired guns was very looked down upon by this time. Peter Tork was probably at Brian's house trying to wash the stink of The Monkees off in Brian's pool.

Yes, seriously. No, I was making a joke comment. I mean it's possible I'm mistaken in my analysis, but I'm serious when I put the idea out there. To answer your question.

[harrisonjon]

Would it have been possible in late 66/early 67 for Brian and VDP to sit down and work out an itinery to get the album finished by a particular date? The open-ended nature of the process seems odd in an age where deadlines were so tight.

This in turn leads to a flaw in Priore's book: IIRC at no point does he criticize the working method as being a cause of the album's non-completion. It seems to be everyone else's fault except Brian (& VDP).

[Nile]

Here you go!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/blhdrj7zlr9nt2q/CCF10092012_00011.jpg?dl=0

It´s pretty clear when PM was in LA with BW! I think we can trust Derek Taylor!

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Here you go!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/blhdrj7zlr9nt2q/CCF10092012_00011.jpg?dl=0

It´s pretty clear when PM was in LA with BW! I think we can trust Derek Taylor!

What am I looking at?

[Cam Mott]

Here you go!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/blhdrj7zlr9nt2q/CCF10092012_00011.jpg?dl=0

It´s pretty clear when PM was in LA with BW! I think we can trust Derek Taylor!

So Sir Paul probably heard something like the version of GV on TSS disc 5 track 24 in late August 1966 I guess?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Here you go!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/blhdrj7zlr9nt2q/CCF10092012_00011.jpg?dl=0

It´s pretty clear when PM was in LA with BW! I think we can trust Derek Taylor!

Trust Derek Taylor ? After he arranged for The Beatles, all four, to listen to the Smile tapes in April 1967 behind Brian's back ??  I wouldn't trust him to tell me the time with a sundial in the Sahara. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Here you go!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/blhdrj7zlr9nt2q/CCF10092012_00011.jpg?dl=0

It´s pretty clear when PM was in LA with BW! I think we can trust Derek Taylor!

What am I looking at?

First meeting, circa 8/26 or 27/66, Taylor's house (Dodger Stadium show was 8/28, Candlestick Park was the next day).

Second meeting, 4/10/67, Sound Recorders studio ("Vega-Tables" session)

[puni puni]

Now, this is just my reading of it and nothing else, he says “we were trying to compete with the Beach Boys” almost as if he’s repeating what *others* have said about it.

There is a less than 1% chance of the Beach Boys being mentioned in any article about the Beatles for the last fifty years. Pet Sounds is barely a footnote in books about Sgt. Pepper. I seriously doubt George was parroting anybody, and I didn't get that impression in his tone.

[GhostyTMRS]

There's many Beatle related podcasts out there, but my favorite is Something About The Beatles,  hosted by (author) Robert Rodriguez and some other Brit guy whom I can't remember the name of just now.  It is really fun, interesting, thought provoking etc.  (though it has sort of a stupid theme song  )
I would love to see/hear such a podcast devoted to the Beach Boys, and thus far I haven't been able to locate one that exists - so the window of opportunity to be the first is there. 

I actually thought about doing this and even approached some folks into cohosting it with me, but we could never coordinate schedules to get it off the ground.    (So I had to settle for a classic video game podcast instead.)

I thought the same, but all of the Beatles podcasts (and there are many) tend to judge the guys pretty fairly. My trepidation with starting a Beach Boys podcast is that I wouldn't be able to find partners or a crew (like the "Fab 4 Free 4 All" podcast) who would treat the individual Beach Boys the same way.

[puni puni]

I once read a claim by somebody from the industry -- don't remember who, don't remember where, but I think it was in a book -- that all four Beatles would spend weekends dropping acid and listening to Pet Sounds over and over again. Maybe somebody can find where that story originates... I've been unsuccessful.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Now, this is just my reading of it and nothing else, he says “we were trying to compete with the Beach Boys” almost as if he’s repeating what *others* have said about it.

There is a less than 1% chance of the Beach Boys being mentioned in any article about the Beatles for the last fifty years. Pet Sounds is barely a footnote in books about Sgt. Pepper. I seriously doubt George was parroting anybody, and I didn't get that impression in his tone.

I have posted this elsewhere but it bears repeating here:

McCartney has said this:

The other thing that really made me sit up and take notice was the bass lines on Pet Sounds. If you were in the key of C, you would normally use---the root note would be, like, a C on the bass (demonstrates vocally). You'd always be on the C. I'd done a little bit of work, like on 'Michelle,' where you don't use the obvious bass line. And you just get a completely different effect if you play a G when the band is playing in C. There's a kind of tension created.
 
I don't really understand how it happens musically, because I'm not very technical musically. But something special happens. And I noticed that throughout that Brian would be using notes that weren't the obvious notes to use. As I say, 'the G if you're in C---that kind of thing. And also putting melodies in the bass line. That I think was probably the big influence that set me thinking when we recorded Pepper, it set me off on a period I had then for a couple of years of nearly always writing quite melodic bass lines.

And on Pet Sounds influence in general:

I played it to John so much that it would be difficult for him to escape the influence. If records had a director within a band, I sort of directed Pepper. And my influence was basically the Pet Sounds album. John was influenced by it, perhaps not as much as me. It was certainly a record we all played – it was the record of the time, you know?

And from George Martin:

I think "Pet Sounds" was one of the most influential albums we'd heard. It was a wonderful album, and we admired everything about it. Everything that the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson did seemed to be thoughtless. You know, "Good Vibrations" was one from the combination of voices. A song like "God Only Knows" was, I think, marvelous stuff, and I know that Paul and the others admired it too. They wanted to be able to write music as good as that or better than that. It was their yardstick. It was a competitive thing. And I learned later that Brian felt that what we were doing was a competitive thing, too. So, it was jolly good.

[GhostyTMRS]

It should be noted that in Pete Shotton's book "John Lennon In My Life" ("The Beatles: Lennon and Me" in paperback) Pete said that John told him he didn't share Paul and George's love of the Beach Boys. While it's possible that Pet Sounds rubbed off on him via Paul's enthusiasm for it (which Paul claims in the quote cited above) I don't think John was as knocked out by it, although we do have him on record enthusing about "The Little Girl I Once Knew".

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I don't think John was as knocked out by it, although we do have him on record enthusing about "The Little Girl I Once Knew".

Do we!? I'd love to see/hear that quotation. Where can I find it?

[harrisonjon]

Citations for Lennon quote:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/beach-boys-song-the-little-girl-i-once-knew.208567/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Girl_I_Once_Knew

Lambert, Philip. Inside the Music of Brian Wilson. p. 218.

Seems to be a Beatles Xmas fan club event (single was released 11.22.65)

[GhostyTMRS]

I don't think John was as knocked out by it, although we do have him on record enthusing about "The Little Girl I Once Knew".

Do we!? I'd love to see/hear that quotation. Where can I find it?

This was from a Melody Maker interview (and evidently reprinted in the Beatles Monthly fan magazine) - regarding The Little Girl I Once Knew - "This is the greatest! Turn it up, turn it right up. It's got to be a hit. It's the greatest record I've heard for weeks. It's fantastic. I hope it will be a hit. It's all Brian Wilson. He just uses the voices as instruments. He never tours or anything. He just sits at home thinking up fantastic arrangements out of his head. Doesn't even read music. You keep waiting for the fabulous breaks. Great arrangement. It goes on and on with all different things. I hope it's a hit so I can hear it all the time."  

[GhostyTMRS]

Lennon may have been like Keith Moon, who didn't really "get" Pet Sounds like his peers did, but nonetheless was a fan. 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Thanks to both of you for those quotes! That's great.  I have been doing my best to research the music the Beatles were listening to throughout the 60s but Melody Maker seems like a treasure trove that I don't have access to.

[GhostyTMRS]

Thanks to both of you for those quotes! That's great.  I have been doing my best to research the music the Beatles were listening to throughout the 60s but Melody Maker seems like a treasure trove that I don't have access to.

I know he doesn't have many fans around these parts, but Keith Badman's "The Beatles Off The Record" books are exactly what you're looking for. There are two volumes. One covering the 60's and one covering the solo years. The 60's volume is great, because it's a collection of interviews and quotes just from the 60's, rather than things the Beatles said after the fact through rose-colored glasses and faulty memories. A terrible book title though, because all of the quotes were actually on the record and printed in newspapers and magazines at the time.