Priore's Claim that The Beatles heard Smile tapes in early 1967

[harrisonjon]

This seems highly tendentious to me. I don't hear much of Smile in Pepper, and in case the template for Pepper was laid down with Strawberry Fields/Penny Lane, recorded late 66. Also I doubt all 4 Beatles were traveling together in early 67. I assume that a check of Lewisohn on Beatles day by day activities could debunk this.

[Andrew G. Doe]

This was investigated shortly after the book was published (can't recall if it was here or another forum - someone will recall) and it swiftly emerged that, unless The Beatles, individually or collectively, entered the US illegally, no-one was in the right place at the right time. As I recall, the source was VDP and when later pressed he merely noted that both albums used sound effects. Except that Smile didn't, unless you count "Fire".

[WickedWaters]

This was investigated shortly after the book was published (can't recall if it was here or another forum - someone will recall) and it swiftly emerged that, unless The Beatles, individually or collectively, entered the US illegally, no-one was in the right place at the right time. As I recall, the source was VDP and when later pressed he merely noted that both albums used sound effects. Except that Smile didn't, unless you count "Fire".

Plus the animal sound effects on Barnyard.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Possibly. Have to listen again, but last time I did (granted back in 2011) my impression was that they were people making animal noises as opposed to actual animal SFX

[guitarfool2002]

This has been a topic raised several times on the board, but it's always worth a revisit! Has some if it gone into conspiracy-theory territory, I'd say yes. But there are still some interesting points to run through the machine and see what comes out when new eyes and ears get on it.

First - There is a wild card that hasn't been mentioned yet, again one that has been raised before. Derek Taylor. He was working for both Brian and The Beatles in various capacities in 1966-67, he and his wife had moved to Los Angeles but he would still travel to the UK as part of his work. Anyone, feel free to post the exact dates and travelogues of Derek Taylor, but he was in fact doing press releases for Brian during Smile, he's in the "Sloop" pool film, and he was still involved personally with The Beatles as he had been throughout the 60's despite his relocation to the US.

Now it is known that Derek heard Brian's works in progress during Smile, and was actively writing pieces which would appear as news reports and PR releases as Smile was being made, right? And it is also known that Brian up to a point was far more open with letting people hear his studio work, whether it was inviting them into the studio for actual sessions, inviting groups to his house for listening parties or just to get their opinions on his work, and he would play either acetates or tape dubs of various music he had recorded whether it was for a neighbor like Mark Volman who would drop in and listen through headphones to Brian's recordings or through things like the acetate listening party described by Jules, or through playing these things for friends as Vosse described he and David asking him to play certain sections of Smile again and again, things like a Wind Chimes dub that blew them away.

So he played this stuff, again up to a point where some reported he felt his ideas were being nicked by some of those who heard them. There is even the case of Jules saying Brian actually gave him some of these rough acetates, so who knows who else may have received a disc or two or five from Brian as a gift.

Now factor in Derek Taylor. Was he there as often as Vosse, Anderle, Volman, Hutton, et al? Someone answer that question definitively, because at this point minus a day-by-day journal we don't know who exactly was around and how often they were around. But it could be said putting together what we do know that Derek was at least a presence, and was working in a professional capacity to write and then publish reports from the sessions working as a PR agent or even as a journalist for hire along the lines of what Vosse did for Teen Set in '66.

Now what if...Derek Taylor reported back to the Beatles, one or all four, what Brian was doing in the studio as a simple case of McCartney asking him as a fan of Brian and the Beach Boys "so what's Brian up to with this new record?" and Derek would let him know what he knew? Nothing malicious, nothing underhanded, just a mutual friend passing on the word of what two groups who mutually admired one another have been recording. What if...Derek like Jules had been given an actual recording, acetate, tape, whatever, of something Brian had done and could speak more specifically on what Brian was doing, and vice versa? Look at the Smile boots, look at the Beatles boots...they would get dubs made of what they did and take them home. The Lennon estate had stacks of these recordings of John's for one, the Beach Boys archives had copies of home tapes, test edits, and acetates of one-off Smile mixes.

Could there be a possibility that at some point at least word of or a description of something being tracked in LA circa Fall 1966 had gotten back to the UK? There may be quotes like "we never heard a note", which would stand up. But what if someone said "Paul, man, you should have heard Brian cutting this piano track, he put all kinds of tape echo and reverb on it and then deliberately made it feed back into noise, then he added another piano on top, and it was spectacular, then he put clips of a conversation among the musicians on top of those tracks and put effects on that too..."

Possible, right?

Now this has been posted here before as well, but listen to this Beatles (mostly McCartney) session tape from the second week of January 1967. It's a combination of sessions for Penny Lane, but mostly McCartney playing piano and the various woodwind overdubs being rehearsed with studio conversations left intact. keep in mind I've said numerous times before and stand by this 100% no matter what some have said:

Penny Lane's instrumental track was McCartney's attempt to do what Brian did on Wouldn't It Be Nice. Shuffle rhythm, similar "walking" bass line, steady pounding quarter notes on multiple keyboard instruments, throw in some exotic winds and sounds like Cor Anglais and piccolo trumpet...it's a UK version of Brian's WIBN.

Yet listen to this Jan '67 session especially from about 2 minutes in. That piano is being treated to multiple studio effects. Someone is "warbling" the sound via that Abbey Road ADT method, messing with the tape oscillator and speed to get the flanging, detuning, and warble. There is also tape echo sometimes being over-applied to the point of near feedback, similar to what Brian's fans know as the "tape explosion" effects from Smile. The piano tracks and the conversations are being effected at various times, sound familiar?

So the point is, January 1967 - Listen to that Penny Lane tape and consider if McCartney had been playing different chords it could have sounded like a Smile outtake minus the ADT-flanging-warbling (which Brian wasn't really doing in the studio). Yes, of course McCartney and Brian could have been listening to some of the same electronic composers who had been working with tape loops and manipulating sound via tape machines and effects, but doesn't it sound at least similar to a Smile outtake to hear McCartney at work in early '67? Where else in the Beatles history previous to this was there such a sound being attempted, and at this point Brian had already done work like this months prior.

Food for thought, that's all.  

Penny Lane extended session, early January 1967:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17BmJHUECFU

[harrisonjon]

VDP unfortunately displays some conspiracism in the book, like it's the JFK assassination

[37!ws]

I gotta say....I really like Dom; he's a nice guy, and I personally find his taste in music impeccable, but...man, whenever I see "priore" and "claim" in the same sentence, I get out my salt shaker.

[Andrew G. Doe]

This has been a topic raised several times on the board, but it's always worth a revisit! Has some if it gone into conspiracy-theory territory, I'd say yes. But there are still some interesting points to run through the machine and see what comes out when new eyes and ears get on it.

First - There is a wild card that hasn't been mentioned yet, again one that has been raised before. Derek Taylor. He was working for both Brian and The Beatles in various capacities in 1966-67, he and his wife had moved to Los Angeles but he would still travel to the UK as part of his work. Anyone, feel free to post the exact dates and travelogues of Derek Taylor, but he was in fact doing press releases for Brian during Smile, he's in the "Sloop" pool film, and he was still involved personally with The Beatles as he had been throughout the 60's despite his relocation to the US.

Now it is known that Derek heard Brian's works in progress during Smile, and was actively writing pieces which would appear as news reports and PR releases as Smile was being made, right? And it is also known that Brian up to a point was far more open with letting people hear his studio work, whether it was inviting them into the studio for actual sessions, inviting groups to his house for listening parties or just to get their opinions on his work, and he would play either acetates or tape dubs of various music he had recorded whether it was for a neighbor like Mark Volman who would drop in and listen through headphones to Brian's recordings or through things like the acetate listening party described by Jules, or through playing these things for friends as Vosse described he and David asking him to play certain sections of Smile again and again, things like a Wind Chimes dub that blew them away.

So he played this stuff, again up to a point where some reported he felt his ideas were being nicked by some of those who heard them. There is even the case of Jules saying Brian actually gave him some of these rough acetates, so who knows who else may have received a disc or two or five from Brian as a gift.

Now factor in Derek Taylor. Was he there as often as Vosse, Anderle, Volman, Hutton, et al? Someone answer that question definitively, because at this point minus a day-by-day journal we don't know who exactly was around and how often they were around. But it could be said putting together what we do know that Derek was at least a presence, and was working in a professional capacity to write and then publish reports from the sessions working as a PR agent or even as a journalist for hire along the lines of what Vosse did for Teen Set in '66.

Now what if...Derek Taylor reported back to the Beatles, one or all four, what Brian was doing in the studio as a simple case of McCartney asking him as a fan of Brian and the Beach Boys "so what's Brian up to with this new record?" and Derek would let him know what he knew? Nothing malicious, nothing underhanded, just a mutual friend passing on the word of what two groups who mutually admired one another have been recording. What if...Derek like Jules had been given an actual recording, acetate, tape, whatever, of something Brian had done and could speak more specifically on what Brian was doing, and vice versa? Look at the Smile boots, look at the Beatles boots...they would get dubs made of what they did and take them home. The Lennon estate had stacks of these recordings of John's for one, the Beach Boys archives had copies of home tapes, test edits, and acetates of one-off Smile mixes.

Could there be a possibility that at some point at least word of or a description of something being tracked in LA circa Fall 1966 had gotten back to the UK? There may be quotes like "we never heard a note", which would stand up. But what if someone said "Paul, man, you should have heard Brian cutting this piano track, he put all kinds of tape echo and reverb on it and then deliberately made it feed back into noise, then he added another piano on top, and it was spectacular, then he put clips of a conversation among the musicians on top of those tracks and put effects on that too..."

Possible, right?

Now this has been posted here before as well, but listen to this Beatles (mostly McCartney) session tape from the second week of January 1967. It's a combination of sessions for Penny Lane, but mostly McCartney playing piano and the various woodwind overdubs being rehearsed with studio conversations left intact. keep in mind I've said numerous times before and stand by this 100% no matter what some have said:

Penny Lane's instrumental track was McCartney's attempt to do what Brian did on Wouldn't It Be Nice. Shuffle rhythm, similar "walking" bass line, steady pounding quarter notes on multiple keyboard instruments, throw in some exotic winds and sounds like Cor Anglais and piccolo trumpet...it's a UK version of Brian's WIBN.

Yet listen to this Jan '67 session especially from about 2 minutes in. That piano is being treated to multiple studio effects. Someone is "warbling" the sound via that Abbey Road ADT method, messing with the tape oscillator and speed to get the flanging, detuning, and warble. There is also tape echo sometimes being over-applied to the point of near feedback, similar to what Brian's fans know as the "tape explosion" effects from Smile. The piano tracks and the conversations are being effected at various times, sound familiar?

So the point is, January 1967 - Listen to that Penny Lane tape and consider if McCartney had been playing different chords it could have sounded like a Smile outtake minus the ADT-flanging-warbling (which Brian wasn't really doing in the studio). Yes, of course McCartney and Brian could have been listening to some of the same electronic composers who had been working with tape loops and manipulating sound via tape machines and effects, but doesn't it sound at least similar to a Smile outtake to hear McCartney at work in early '67? Where else in the Beatles history previous to this was there such a sound being attempted, and at this point Brian had already done work like this months prior.

Food for thought, that's all.  

Penny Lane extended session, early January 1967:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17BmJHUECFU

I've not read the book for a few years, but it sticks in my mind that the "Beatles-covertly-heard-Smile-tapes" claim was very specific in that they heard them when they were being stored at Armin Steiner's Sound Recorders, the 2nd (3rd ?) studio in LA with an 8-track facility. Not down the phone... not on a pilfered acetate... they went into Sound Recorders and listened to the original session tapes. To my mind, the biggest piece of evidence against any such thing having happened is the complete and utter silence of one James Paul McCartney on this topic. Given his very nature, surely in 1993, and above all in 2011, he'd have popped up somewhere chirping "y'know I heard all this stuff back in the sixties, man, it was gear, groovy" (winks, thumbs up). That and the timeline which precludes anyone listening to anything in time for ti to inform Pepper. It may be that my recall is imperfect, but that's how I remember it.

And I'm sorry, but by saying this...

So the point is, January 1967 - Listen to that Penny Lane tape and consider if McCartney had been playing different chords it could have sounded like a Smile outtake minus the ADT-flanging-warbling (which Brian wasn't really doing in the studio).

...you're just inviting general mirth, if not actual ridicule by stating that if Paulie was playing something completely different to what he was playing, it might have sounded like a Smile outtake ?  Seriously ??  That's more qualifications than a room full of astrophysicists.

[Howie Edelson]

With all due respect, this is such a dumb topic. And really, shame on those who’ve mislead or blindly perpetrated this myth -- which is all connected to the hangup that The Beach Boys weren’t The Beatles and that Brian Wilson wasn’t Lennon/McCartney. It all stems from fan hangups. (e.g. My team was robbed of the pennant!)

Knowing what I know about Paul McCartney and The Beatles I can honestly say, that as much as McCartney loved Pet Sounds and Brian Wilson’s work, he really only had a passing interest in it. The same as Lennon had with Dylan. It was a case of “Wow, this is my peer. One of my ONLY peers. They get it, too.” But Paul McCartney had so much magic pouring out of him in 1966/1967, that he didn’t need to crib ideas -- and as we all know, he’s gone on record stating he wasn’t so hot on “Good Vibrations.”

The only artist Paul McCartney was ever chomping at the bit to hear their new works was John Lennon.
And that’s that.

[Andrew G. Doe]

That's what I love about Howie (aside from his being a damn fine journalist and writer: I loved the liners on the latest Who comp before I knew they were his): he sits back and watches the rest of us rage and dance ourselves into a state of exhaustion then, as we lay gasping and red-faced on the ground, concisely informs us as to exactly why we're wrong, or - more often - why it really doesn't matter. He's a living exponent of "less-is-more". Also a very nice guy, even when he's telling me I'm talking enhanced bollocks. Especially when he's telling me that, actually. 

[Mr. Verlander]

And, you usually both come off sounding like a couple of dicks. So you have that in common, too.

[Howie Edelson]

Wow.

Where's THAT coming from grown-up man with a make-believe name on a message board about his favorite singing group?

I've never even heard of you before.
(Maybe that's your beef with me. NOW I know you. But now I know you as the guy who called me a d ick.)

And AGD, thank you.
Kind words -- one might even say "mature" words.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

And, you usually both come off sounding like a couple of dicks. So you have that in common, too.

Hey now...there was no need for that at all.

[Andrew G. Doe]

And, you usually both come off sounding like a couple of dicks. So you have that in common, too.

You funny little man.  

Could resort to the ol' snappy comeback, "takes one to know one", but that would be unworthy of my current radiant state of being. Now wouldn't it ?   

[Cam Mott]

Didn't Taylor tell a story about McCartney hearing a pre-release dub of GV (?) played by Brian for him at Taylor's home and Paul asked if he could keep the dub but Brian declined? How confused/wrong am I?

[sea of tunes]

What Howie says makes complete sense. 

Lennon/McCartney were already on a trajectory to write what ended up as "Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band".  They were sprinkling in the experimentation with stuff like "Rain" and "Tomorrow Never Knows" that was so very groundbreaking.  They may have been inspired by what Brian was doing but most definitely in an aspirational way.  Like, "let's see where we can push this".

The only thing that will always amaze me though is that, regarding Brian, he could do all of it.  Lennon/McCartney were a tag team that probably wrote a lot on their own after the early days while occasionally bouncing ideas.  But they also had George Martin producing.  That's not a knock on them at all, just more reason to be astonished by Brian's prowess.  And yes, I know Van Dyke was part of the songwriting process..

[Misterlou]

Possibly. Have to listen again, but last time I did (granted back in 2011) my impression was that they were people making animal noises as opposed to actual animal SFX

2011 was your last listen to Smile? You're kidding, right? Please tell me you are. Granted, the lyrics aren't by Mike Love, but you ought to give it another listen sometime. There are some pretty decent songs on it that I think you'll like. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

I immersed myself in the box for, oh, two, three months.

[bgas]

I immersed myself in the box for, oh, two, three months.

OH! Are there photos?

[Howie Edelson]

Don't get me wrong, I love and respect George Martin, and as an orchestrator to McCartney's ideas (which includes Lennon's) he was immensely valuable. But I believe that WAY too much credit has been given to him over the years. Geoff Emerick was the true star behind the boards for that LP -- but it was all due to the ears and imaginations of Lennon/McCartney. Martin and Emerick were just as much technicians for hire as the Wrecking Crew were (e.g. no sheet music, no music.)

And as far as doing it all, McCartney could, too. Given the proper technology, McCartney could've performed very inch of Pepper's basic tracks and vocals. Brian could not have done that for any of his LP's. Not a tit for tat -- just a fact. Yes, McCartney would bring in an outside orchestrator like Mike Leander or Martin, but I'd say 85 percent of all those parts were based on McCartney top lines give to them (the most glaring example "Martha My Dear.") Both Lennon and Harrison -- publicly and privately -- always took umbrage at the fact that Martin was so quick to take credit for the group's innovations. Harrison particularly had nothing but scorn for Emerick.

The Beatles' TRUE producer was McCartney.
Not that Lennon or Harrison would ever dare admit it.

Re: Brian, I DON'T believe he could do it all, which is why -- I believe -- he felt the need to morph Smile into Smiley.
Emotional and professional troubles aside, I think he realized that "bringing it all back home" and actually PLAYING the music yourself (playing and singing, just like The Beatles) was truly the way to realize music in 1967.
I've always believed that a part of Smile's demise was that having a bunch of (albeit talented) middle-aged dudes playing your music just wasn't cool.

I think that the end of Smile , rather than the beginning of it, was when Brian Wilson, a guy from the 1950's -- smashed hard into the 1960's.

[harrisonjon]

Technically nobody "can listen to Smile" because the album of that name by The Beach Boys was never finished. We listen to many things that were intended for Smile, often in the running order that has become the "accepted" running order, or we listen to Brian Wilson's 2004 reconstruction of Smile.

My guess is that AGD has listened to some Smile elements since 2011.

[harrisonjon]

Beatles songs from c.1967 that would be very difficult to play live are probably all John's, such as Strawberry Fields and Walrus. I think Paul always wrote with the idea that his songs could be played live in future, as I don't think he ever abandoned the ambition to do more Beatles concerts.

I'd guess that probably about half of Smile could have been played live in 1967, in some form. Maybe the songs that were reworked for Smiley Smile, plus Surf's Up.

[guitarfool2002]

I'll agree to disagree to be polite about it. How's that?

What I know is Geoff Emerick said there was a turntable brought in as the Beatles were working on Pepper so Pet Sounds could be played. I know and would be more than happy to do a more deep and thorough musical dissection and analysis of the musical traits that Penny Lane shares with Wouldn't It Be Nice and how elements of WIBN form the backbone of Penny Lane in more ways than I already mentioned, but leave that to your ears to hear for themselves. Or simply dismiss it altogether. No skin off my back.

We could go through and cite specific songs and sounds and production elements that were influenced between the two bands and which the two bands shared perhaps as a result of those influences, some which have been cited specifically by various band members who have said variations of "I got that from the Beach Boys" or "that was something influenced by The Beatles". Anything from a groove to a chord progression to a vocal harmony to an overall feel. It's all there in the record grooves for anyone to hear, and it's neither a grand mystery, nor some scholarly overly complex reasoning along the lines of Bach scholars poring over his manuscripts, nor is it all that hard to find on a simple A/B listening comparison.

And it is not, I repeat NOT, suggesting musicians having stolen ideas or nicked others' sounds maliciously or underhandedly, or anything except the fact that these musicians both influenced and were *influenced by* one another's work, and in some cases they wore it on their sleeves proudly and said as much, or they had enough of a similarity to pick up on with a simple listen. If we want to argue that, let's go for it, I'm all in.

And I'm not pushing any Beatles versus Beach Boys competition agenda except for me having enough of an ego to say sometimes I do know what the hell I'm talking about and can back it up, and I enjoy discussing these things and especially pointing them out to listeners who may not have noticed them before.

Andrew - Below the belt, man. Ridicule? I put that outtake up for people to hear for themselves if they never have. *I* thought it shared some similarities with a few Smile outtakes I've heard which have similar studio techniques being applied to a basic quarter note piano groove playing chords and trying ideas. As noted, the main difference is the manipulation of the pitch and the comb filtering effect to create what I call relevant to 1967 "The Abbey Road Warble", that had a tape op manually adjusting the tape speed via an oscillator in real time as the track played to generate that comb filter effect. Remember the outtake from Smile where Brian asks about vari-speeding a tape to speed up or slow down to record or play back at a different pitch? The one where the engineer explains the process to Brian after Brian suggests the vari-speed technique to record a part, and that engineer tells him how they do it with an oscillator to control the motor which affects the speed of the machine? I do.

And that in a different setup is how the Beatles via Abbey Road's staff ended up flanging so many tracks throughout 1967 and up to and including Clapton's guitar solo on "While My Guitar..." after Clapton said it wasn't "Beatle-y" enough. Messing with tape speed and oscillators and all of that goes back to Les Paul into the Goldstar studios, but here you have both Beatles sessions and Brian sessions doing similar things with tape echo, reverb, tape speed, and messing with various similar effects on piano tracks. Should we catalog the Smile session tapes that have similar sounds just so it's not ridiculed?

I put it out there for people to consider and to hear. It had little or nothing to do with whatever book was cited, or Van Dyke Parks' claims, or anything other than putting things on the table and inviting anyone who chooses to take a listen and have a read through the post and just consider a "what if?" kind of possibility. That's why I ended with saying food for thought, because it's pie in the sky speculation that's just laying out some words and audio for consideration, and offering the possibility of Derek Taylor's involvement with tongue in cheek based on the rampant theorizing of the past and also as a fun kind of exercise.

I guess the fun and informational part of it got lost in the sarcasm and bile that followed. Nope, can't say that, can't suggest that, let's totally shred someone's words for reasons other than having a discussion about actual music and musical ideas that people can check out?

And people talk about the board being f***ed up? Sure.

[SMiLE Brian]

Exactly GF, we need more scholars and GENTlEMEN like you.

[Misterlou]

Don't get me wrong, I love and respect George Martin, and as an orchestrator to McCartney's ideas (which includes Lennon's) he was immensely valuable. But I believe that WAY too much credit has been given to him over the years. Geoff Emerick was the true star behind the boards for that LP -- but it was all due to the ears and imaginations of Lennon/McCartney. Martin and Emerick were just as much technicians for hire as the Wrecking Crew were (e.g. no sheet music, no music.)

And as far as doing it all, McCartney could, too. Given the proper technology, McCartney could've performed very inch of Pepper's basic tracks and vocals. Brian could not have done that for any of his LP's. Not a tit for tat -- just a fact. Yes, McCartney would bring in an outside orchestrator like Mike Leander or Martin, but I'd say 85 percent of all those parts were based on McCartney top lines give to them (the most glaring example "Martha My Dear.") Both Lennon and Harrison -- publicly and privately -- always took umbrage at the fact that Martin was so quick to take credit for the group's innovations. Harrison particularly had nothing but scorn for Emerick.

The Beatles' TRUE producer was McCartney.
Not that Lennon or Harrison would ever dare admit it.

Re: Brian, I DON'T believe he could do it all, which is why -- I believe -- he felt the need to morph Smile into Smiley.
Emotional and professional troubles aside, I think he realized that "bringing it all back home" and actually PLAYING the music yourself (playing and singing, just like The Beatles) was truly the way to realize music in 1967.
I've always believed that a part of Smile's demise was that having a bunch of (albeit talented) middle-aged dudes playing your music just wasn't cool.

I think that the end of Smile , rather than the beginning of it, was when Brian Wilson, a guy from the 1950's -- smashed hard into the 1960's.

Welcome to the forum, Sir Paul. Or may we call you Paul? We're an informal bunch here, so I'm assuming that'll be okay. By the way, you almost had us fooled, referring to yourself in the third person. Very clever you are. And hacking into Howie's account? Well, that's a whole 'nother matter that I think the moderators (and Howie) are going to have to take up with you, but in the meantime, kick off your shoes, look around, and make yourself comfortable. You're among friends here... as long as you keep referring to God Only Knows as the greatest song ever.