Depictions of Dennis, Melcher and Gregg Jakobson in Jeff Guinn Manson Biography

[harrisonjon]

I flicked through the Jeff Guinn book and was rather appalled by some unsupported allegations being put forward as fact. Most outrageously Guinn claims on page 158 that Dennis was a racist, which instantly makes Guinn a scumbag given that he was unwilling/unable to source the allegation.

Guinn is on more solid ground with his portrayal of their sexual conduct, which just seems to be like dogs on heat. Whilst I realize that many males are penis-driven in their twenties, you look at the Manson women and think, why would anyone with the sexual opportunities of a celebrity need to descend into this STD/drug-addled hell-hole just for sex?

Finally it's still not clear to me, even though Guinn interviews Jakobson extensively, whether or not Dennis or Gregg ever bought into any of Manson's "philosophy". Gregg seems to have "gone native" to some degree, but Dennis was on his own path too much to buy into Manson's.

Here's the Amazon link. I'd welcome comments from any other members who've flicked through the tome.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1451645171/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

[Fire Wind]

Yeah, this might've been the tome I flicked through recently.  It was only a flicking through, as I was at a WH Smiths at a train station.  I looked in the index for W, then had a look and saw, probably to completely paraphrase, stuff about Dennis having a strong racist streak and that was a point of connection for him and Manson.

I know it's been noted before about Dennis and possible dislike of blacks and a possible rape by a black man (the last according to Dennis, I think).  It would be good to know if there are credible sources for everything to do with it, though.  It doesn't particularly bother me if Dennis had a racist streak, but there should be proper sources if people are gonna say this stuff.

[harrisonjon]

Agreed, 'racism' is too explosive a word to throw around.

I dunno what Dennis's views were on race but his link to black music is pretty clear, and he was at a party with Billy Preston when You Are So Beautiful was written. Then there's the fact that he had two black bandmates in the early 70s.

[SBonilla]

Agreed, 'racism' is too explosive a word to throw around.

I dunno what Dennis's views were on race but his link to black music is pretty clear, and he was at a party with Billy Preston when You Are So Beautiful was written. Then there's the fact that he had two black bandmates in the early 70s.

If you mean Ricky and Blondie, you're wrong. Ricky is of Malay descent, Blondie is mixed race. In South Africa they were both considered Coloured.

I was at a nightclub and briefly shared a table with Benny Carter. What could that possibly prove?

[harrisonjon]

That's why I say "I dunno" at the beginning. It's evidence but not proof.

You could, for example, cite Eric Clapton, a lover of the blues but notoriously a supporter of Enoch Powell.

[Mike's Beard]

I've read several accounts that Dennis came very close to quitting the band at one point to be with the Family. Melcher was way into Charlie more than he liked to let on also, it was only after witnessing Manson beat the crap out of a rancher that he cut his ties with the guy.

As for the implied racism - well we all know have much Manson loved the blacks, so Dennis must have at least tolorated such viewpoints to an extent. Also it's worth considering that what may be considered racist today may not have been so much by 1960s standards.

[Komera]

I haven't read/skimmed it, but I probably wouldn't put much in store by it.  For me, personally, I feel that Manson's appeal to Dennis was that he talked with Dennis, and more importantly LISTENED to Dennis.  That is a pretty powerful pull to someone who is dismissed as simply a crazy trouble maker by others.  Especially if everyone's attention is elsewhere (read: on Brian).  I'm sure that Manson was fulfilling a deep need of Dennis to be listened to and taken seriously in every way that the other boys simply weren't.  It makes a lot more sense to me that Dennis would house Manson and his girls for a year because Dennis felt Manson actually understood him, than to think that the sex was just that good and the drugs were premium.

[SBonilla]

That's why I say "I dunno" at the beginning. It's evidence but not proof.

You could, for example, cite Eric Clapton, a lover of the blues but notoriously a supporter of Enoch Powell.

I don't think what you said earlier is evidence of anything.

I will say one more thing about Benny Carter. During our conversation we talked about the music business and, in particular, Capitol Records. He told me how he produced the first million selling singles the label had (Smoke Smoke Smoke & Cow Cow Boogie) and how he was never credited as  a producer. He was an A&R person in the original sense of the word.
 
His stature in American Music could not be much enhanced by him having a credit as a producer of cosmopolitan hillbilly records, he's a giant in American Music. But I think his name not being on the list of some of the great early producers of American pop records is a shame. A dozen and some years later, staff A&R men such as Pete Rugolo and Quincy Jones would be given the credit that was unheard of and maybe even unthinkable in the early 40's.

[joshferrell]

I think that Manson should write his own autobiography titled "My life with Pigs"  and it would read something like this..

"I was born in a dirty, stinking dungeon, where dragons lived and rats crawled over my body. my mother was a jackal and my dad was a turkey. I was raised in the woods where I lived amongst the thorn bushes. that's when I met Xarxiblleuy from the planet tbeeejvc. He had 3 arms 10 eyes, he was 2 inches tall, I was placed in his 4 inch tall space ship and he took me up to the moon, where I stepped off and he pointed at the earth and said "Gluck, Gluck xerbado", which I understood as "There will be a race war on the earth, and you must start it, because us aliens don't like Negros, so it's up to you to be our messiah, we will be placing hidden messages in music for you to find when you are older, you must play it backwards, the band will be known as the Beatles, but first you must go to a man named Terry Melcher and another named Dennis Wilson of a future band named the Beach Boys and they will sign you up for a record deal and you will be the most famous musician ever, you will be their Messiah and everyone will love and worship you." this when I was 2. after the alien brought me back down I killed my parents and lived out in the woods from 2 until my 20's."    (To be continued in his autobiography)

[Komera]

I think that Manson should write his own autobiography titled "My life with Pigs"  and it would read something like this..

"I was born in a dirty, stinking dungeon, where dragons lived and rats crawled over my body. my mother was a jackal and my dad was a turkey. I was raised in the woods where I lived amongst the thorn bushes. that's when I met Xarxiblleuy from the planet tbeeejvc. He had 3 arms 10 eyes, he was 2 inches tall, I was placed in his 4 inch tall space ship and he took me up to the moon, where I stepped off and he pointed at the earth and said "Gluck, Gluck xerbado", which I understood as "There will be a race war on the earth, and you must start it, because us aliens don't like Negros, so it's up to you to be our messiah, we will be placing hidden messages in music for you to find when you are older, you must play it backwards, the band will be known as the Beatles, but first you must go to a man named Terry Melcher and another named Dennis Wilson of a future band named the Beach Boys and they will sign you up for a record deal and you will be the most famous musician ever, you will be their Messiah and everyone will love and worship you." this when I was 2. after the alien brought me back down I killed my parents and lived out in the woods from 2 until my 20's."    (To be continued in his autobiography)

This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread subject...  But my dad's best friend was Ron Walton.  Many many times in my childhood I'd answer the phone, and then run off to tell my dad that Ron was on the phone.  Ron has a brother, Travis.  There used to be a picture of Travis Walton holding me as a baby.  Yes, THAT Travis Walton.

[joshferrell]

I think that Manson should write his own autobiography titled "My life with Pigs"  and it would read something like this..

"I was born in a dirty, stinking dungeon, where dragons lived and rats crawled over my body. my mother was a jackal and my dad was a turkey. I was raised in the woods where I lived amongst the thorn bushes. that's when I met Xarxiblleuy from the planet tbeeejvc. He had 3 arms 10 eyes, he was 2 inches tall, I was placed in his 4 inch tall space ship and he took me up to the moon, where I stepped off and he pointed at the earth and said "Gluck, Gluck xerbado", which I understood as "There will be a race war on the earth, and you must start it, because us aliens don't like Negros, so it's up to you to be our messiah, we will be placing hidden messages in music for you to find when you are older, you must play it backwards, the band will be known as the Beatles, but first you must go to a man named Terry Melcher and another named Dennis Wilson of a future band named the Beach Boys and they will sign you up for a record deal and you will be the most famous musician ever, you will be their Messiah and everyone will love and worship you." this when I was 2. after the alien brought me back down I killed my parents and lived out in the woods from 2 until my 20's."    (To be continued in his autobiography)

This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread subject...  But my dad's best friend was Ron Walton.  Many many times in my childhood I'd answer the phone, and then run off to tell my dad that Ron was on the phone.  Ron has a brother, Travis.  There used to be a picture of Travis Walton holding me as a baby.  Yes, THAT Travis Walton.

it was meant to be a joke, what Manson's autobiography may look like if he wrote one.... 

[clack]

I don't find it at all astonishing that at one point at least in his life, Dennis had some dumb opinions about black people.

[Komera]

I think that Manson should write his own autobiography titled "My life with Pigs"  and it would read something like this..

"I was born in a dirty, stinking dungeon, where dragons lived and rats crawled over my body. my mother was a jackal and my dad was a turkey. I was raised in the woods where I lived amongst the thorn bushes. that's when I met Xarxiblleuy from the planet tbeeejvc. He had 3 arms 10 eyes, he was 2 inches tall, I was placed in his 4 inch tall space ship and he took me up to the moon, where I stepped off and he pointed at the earth and said "Gluck, Gluck xerbado", which I understood as "There will be a race war on the earth, and you must start it, because us aliens don't like Negros, so it's up to you to be our messiah, we will be placing hidden messages in music for you to find when you are older, you must play it backwards, the band will be known as the Beatles, but first you must go to a man named Terry Melcher and another named Dennis Wilson of a future band named the Beach Boys and they will sign you up for a record deal and you will be the most famous musician ever, you will be their Messiah and everyone will love and worship you." this when I was 2. after the alien brought me back down I killed my parents and lived out in the woods from 2 until my 20's."    (To be continued in his autobiography)

This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread subject...  But my dad's best friend was Ron Walton.  Many many times in my childhood I'd answer the phone, and then run off to tell my dad that Ron was on the phone.  Ron has a brother, Travis.  There used to be a picture of Travis Walton holding me as a baby.  Yes, THAT Travis Walton.

it was meant to be a joke, what Manson's autobiography may look like if he wrote one.... 

I meant MY reply had nothing to do with the thread.  At least yours mentioned Manson.  Mine was about the "family's space cadet", as dad liked to call him.

[joshferrell]

I think that Manson should write his own autobiography titled "My life with Pigs"  and it would read something like this..

"I was born in a dirty, stinking dungeon, where dragons lived and rats crawled over my body. my mother was a jackal and my dad was a turkey. I was raised in the woods where I lived amongst the thorn bushes. that's when I met Xarxiblleuy from the planet tbeeejvc. He had 3 arms 10 eyes, he was 2 inches tall, I was placed in his 4 inch tall space ship and he took me up to the moon, where I stepped off and he pointed at the earth and said "Gluck, Gluck xerbado", which I understood as "There will be a race war on the earth, and you must start it, because us aliens don't like Negros, so it's up to you to be our messiah, we will be placing hidden messages in music for you to find when you are older, you must play it backwards, the band will be known as the Beatles, but first you must go to a man named Terry Melcher and another named Dennis Wilson of a future band named the Beach Boys and they will sign you up for a record deal and you will be the most famous musician ever, you will be their Messiah and everyone will love and worship you." this when I was 2. after the alien brought me back down I killed my parents and lived out in the woods from 2 until my 20's."    (To be continued in his autobiography)

This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread subject...  But my dad's best friend was Ron Walton.  Many many times in my childhood I'd answer the phone, and then run off to tell my dad that Ron was on the phone.  Ron has a brother, Travis.  There used to be a picture of Travis Walton holding me as a baby.  Yes, THAT Travis Walton.

it was meant to be a joke, what Manson's autobiography may look like if he wrote one.... 

I meant MY reply had nothing to do with the thread.  At least yours mentioned Manson.  Mine was about the "family's space cadet", as dad liked to call him.

lol 

[retrokid67]

I hope it wasn't true (being a black fan myself).  I remember reading an article (it's on the message board somewhere) where he was talking about how he was tired of rock or something and then he said "I like blacks."  I hate it when people categorize music like that.  Music has no color.

[Smilin Ed H]

Dennis is the high profile star that got stuck with Manson. There's an interview with Neil Young somewhere in which he talks about many other people from the (broadly speaking) entertainment industry who went out to see Manson because they'd been sold the idea he was the next big thing, but who quickly denied all knowledge after the Tate killings. I'd lke to think Dennis wasn't racist. We all want our heroes to be better,  I guess. He was a fan of Marvin Gaye and Sam Cooke, wasn't he? This was after the BB's soulful experiments with Wild Honey? Maybe Jon Stebbins could tell us.

[Fire Wind]

Usually, if wild claims are made that are unsubstantiated, they get challenged on this board by the knowledgable.  That this topic receives no such challenge or confirmation leads me to think there's probably a degree of truth there, but folk would rather not talk about it for various reasons.  That doesn't leave us with much of substance.  But that's okay.  I'm semi-inclined to take the Manson author at his word, as it helps to explain Dennis's attraction to Manson.

[Juice Brohnston]

It's strange, but in the last week, I have read three different stories that paint Terry in a less than flattering light.

[Bicyclerider]

There's an article I believe in Teen Set where Dennis praises Manson and calls him "the Wizard" and talks like Manson is his guru.  So yeah, I think at some point Dennis was buying into the Manson philosophy.  As for why Dennis would be interested in the Manson girls - they were "hippies" and fairly dishevelled but not bad looking girls.  And they were available.

[harrisonjon]

The Gaines book claims that Dennis repeatedly told friends he had been raped by black guys, but the details changed several times; of course this was drunk/drug-addled talk by a man descending into a paranoid worldview but it might interest a shrink.

[jeffh]

There were many more racists back in the 60s. Statistically, they came from the "blue collar " land lower levels of society. It was almost a common thing to know several people who didn't like a different race. It was more "open" then, and didn't carry the stigma that it does today. That being said, it would not be unthinkable for Dennis to have been a racist. A lot of people were. There is still too much racism today, but it is more subtle. People just aren't as open to acknowledge being racist in this day and age.  I'm certainly not saying that Dennis was a racist, just that the 60s presented a much more condusive atmosphere for that hatred. As with a lot of things, you had to be there. I was.