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Author Topic: Van Dyke Barks  (Read 85740 times)
DonnyL
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« Reply #450 on: July 01, 2015, 09:57:11 PM »

Brian also hasn't made an album like Pet Sounds since Pet Sounds or an album like All Summer Long since All Summer Long.

Are you kidding?

No. What album has he done like Pet Sounds or All Summer Long?

Hmm ... here is my original quote:

The "Americana" musical streak is something I don't hear in any other BB work, yet is present on most VDP material.

... point being, there is a definable "Van Dyke Parks" vibe to Smile.

... and ... well, you could argue that much of the Beach Boys' career has consisted of attempts to make records like All Summer Long and Pet Sounds, quite frankly.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 09:58:26 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #451 on: July 01, 2015, 09:59:44 PM »

Brian also hasn't made an album like Pet Sounds since Pet Sounds or an album like All Summer Long since All Summer Long.

I'd argue the pre-today albums are very similar to each other and today and pet sounds are very similar. But nothing else in their canon sounds quite like GV or SMiLE. To be fair tho, I'd say the same for Love You, which is VDP-less

Well, Brian created Rio Grande without Van Dyke Parks's help and as far as music that evokes a sense of place (which is what I assume people mean here when they use the term Americana) then That Lucky Old Sun is an example of that. To me, those share far more in common than Today and Pet Sounds, given that one has fairly traditional rock and roll songs and ballads (albeit great ones) and the other is a huge advancement in popular music. People have a hard enough time accepting Sloop John B. on Pet Sounds. Try telling the same people that if you replace Caroline No, You Still Believe in Me, and I Just Wasn't Made for These Times with Don't Hurt My Little Sister, Dance Dance Dance, and Bull Session with Big Daddy you'd still end up with something "very similar."
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« Reply #452 on: July 01, 2015, 10:04:26 PM »

The "Americana" musical streak is something I don't hear in any other BB work, yet is present on most VDP material.

I'm not sure what you mean by an Americana musical streak in Smile - Brian certainly nods to Americana when he remakes Ol' Man River; how about something like Diamond Head? Or how about Brian's solo forays that include Rio Grande and an album devoted to Gershwin songs.

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... and ... well, you could argue that much of the Beach Boys' career has consisted of attempts to make records like All Summer Long and Pet Sounds, quite frankly.

You could also argue that man faked the moon landings.
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DonnyL
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« Reply #453 on: July 01, 2015, 10:08:51 PM »

You could also argue that man faked the moon landings.

Or you could just argue.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #454 on: July 01, 2015, 10:11:46 PM »

You could also argue that man faked the moon landings.

Or you could just argue.

 Cheesy

Or you could just.

Hey, I agree, Van Dyke Parks made an important contribution to Smile but as he notes himself, he followed Brian's musical direction completely.
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Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #455 on: July 01, 2015, 10:17:01 PM »

Brian also hasn't made an album like Pet Sounds since Pet Sounds or an album like All Summer Long since All Summer Long.

I'd argue the pre-today albums are very similar to each other and today and pet sounds are very similar. But nothing else in their canon sounds quite like GV or SMiLE. To be fair tho, I'd say the same for Love You, which is VDP-less

Well, Brian created Rio Grande without Van Dyke Parks's help and as far as music that evokes a sense of place (which is what I assume people mean here when they use the term Americana) then That Lucky Old Sun is an example of that. To me, those share far more in common than Today and Pet Sounds, given that one has fairly traditional rock and roll songs and ballads (albeit great ones) and the other is a huge advancement in popular music. People have a hard enough time accepting Sloop John B. on Pet Sounds. Try telling the same people that if you replace Caroline No, You Still Believe in Me, and I Just Wasn't Made for These Times with Don't Hurt My Little Sister, Dance Dance Dance, and Bull Session with Big Daddy you'd still end up with something "very similar."

Just because Pet Sounds was a massive step up from Today doesn't mean they aren't similar. Taxman or Eleanor Rigby wouldn't work on Sgt Pepper but those are still related.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
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« Reply #456 on: July 01, 2015, 10:21:03 PM »

Just because Pet Sounds was a massive step up from Today doesn't mean they aren't similar. Taxman or Eleanor Rigby wouldn't work on Sgt Pepper but those are still related.

They are similar, yes. But I'd argue that Today shares more in common, musically, with All Summer Long than it does with Pet Sounds. Pet Sounds, like Smile, really sounds like nothing else in their catalogue. Also, I'd say the same thing about the other example that while Revolver and Sgt. Pepper are related, they are completely unique entities as well and, in fact, I'd say Revolver has much more in common with Rubber Soul than it does with Pepper. Ah, well, I guess this is why they say music is subjective.
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Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #457 on: July 01, 2015, 10:26:35 PM »

Just because Pet Sounds was a massive step up from Today doesn't mean they aren't similar. Taxman or Eleanor Rigby wouldn't work on Sgt Pepper but those are still related.

They are similar, yes. But I'd argue that Today shares more in common, musically, with All Summer Long than it does with Pet Sounds. Pet Sounds, like Smile, really sounds like nothing else in their catalogue. Also, I'd say the same thing about the other example that while Revolver and Sgt. Pepper are related, they are completely unique entities as well and, in fact, I'd say Revolver has much more in common with Rubber Soul than it does with Pepper. Ah, well, I guess this is why they say music is subjective.

Indeed, because all I can say is I completely disagree. Especially that last point. Revolver is psychedelic. At least "proto-psychedelic." It's much closer stylistically to Pepper than the folk rock RS.

But this is irrelevant. VDP decided the thematic direction of most of SMiLE, wrote the lyrics, and possibly helped arrange the music. He was essential to the project, hence why it all went to hell when he quit.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 10:28:12 PM by Mujan, B@st@rd Son of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #458 on: July 01, 2015, 10:34:02 PM »

I don't think anyone denies that Parks was influential to SMiLE. I don't think the film denies that. It just doesn't elaborate on it.

But, to please Van Dyke Parks and some members here, apparently Love and Mercy should have included a 15 minute segment on how important Parks was to SMiLE. So, since we're at it, let's also throw in 15 minutes each on Murry, Roger Christian, Jan Berry, and Terry Asher. Oh, and let's not forget another 10 minutes on Carol Kaye.  Heck, let's just drop the whole Wrecking Crew movie right smack down in the middle of it. And after everyone who's ever done anything gets publicly credited, lets just throw out the entire premise of this gem of a movie, which is to take a look into the mind of Brian Wilson so we can better understand how someone at his creative peak can come undone, become ensnared by an unscrupulous therapist, and still survive to tour this summer.

The movie wasn't about SMiLE. It wasn't about Pet Sounds. It wasn't even about the Beach Boys.  It was about Brian's Wilson's personal struggles. He spent more years with Al Jardine than he ever spent with Van Dyke Parks, and that character was barely onscreen.  Not because Al wasn't important. But, because this isn't about Al Jardine.  It's about Brian's personal pain, and it took some guts for him to expose that to the world. But, instead seeing the big picture and showing some empathy, we have adult people acting like teenagers and making catty comments on social media about cello riffs and fire hats. Geez.

My advice to Mr. Parks: quit whining, put your big boy britches on and deal with it.




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« Reply #459 on: July 01, 2015, 10:47:28 PM »

I don't think anyone denies that Parks was influential to SMiLE. I don't think the film denies that. It just doesn't elaborate on it.

But, to please Van Dyke Parks and some members here, apparently Love and Mercy should have included a 15 minute segment on how important Parks was to SMiLE. So, since we're at it, let's also throw in 15 minutes each on Murry, Roger Christian, Jan Berry, and Terry Asher. Oh, and let's not forget another 10 minutes on Carol Kaye.  Heck, let's just drop the whole Wrecking Crew movie right smack down in the middle of it. And after everyone who's ever done anything gets publicly credited, lets just throw out the entire premise of this gem of a movie, which is to take a look into the mind of Brian Wilson so we can better understand how someone at his creative peak can come undone, become ensnared by an unscrupulous therapist, and still survive to tour this summer.

The movie wasn't about SMiLE. It wasn't about Pet Sounds. It wasn't even about the Beach Boys.  It was about Brian's Wilson's personal struggles. He spent more years with Al Jardine than he ever spent with Van Dyke Parks, and that character was barely onscreen.  Not because Al wasn't important. But, because this isn't about Al Jardine.  It's about Brian's personal pain, and it took some guts for him to expose that to the world. But, instead seeing the big picture and showing some empathy, we have adult people acting like teenagers and making catty comments on social media about cello riffs and fire hats. Geez.

My advice to Mr. Parks: quit whining, put your big boy britches on and deal with it.






You're right of course. It's not that I need 15 minutes of VDP's brilliance. But a few extra minutes showing that Brian's arguably most sophisticated work was more than crazy stoned shenanigans and mental breakdown would be nice. SMiLE is the turning point of his career and deserves a sizeable chunk of time, I would argue. It's also a fascinating story in its own right. Not 15 minutes, but maybe an extra 5~10 I'd say. It's the climax of Brian's Icarus arc.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 10:49:36 PM by Mujan, B@st@rd Son of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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« Reply #460 on: July 02, 2015, 02:23:27 AM »

Any scene depicting Van Dyke or Carl coming up with the idea would have seemed extraneous, forced and unneeded.

This was the exact thought looming over me during the Good Vibes piano scene. I was preparing to cringe my hardest for when "Mike" says: "...I got it! 'I'm picking up good vibrations'!" I am so glad he didn't. It would have really thrown the film into clichés.
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« Reply #461 on: July 02, 2015, 02:32:19 AM »

I would have called the film Love & Cello and focused on Mike's gift for the hook and the triplets VDP is said to have fathered.
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« Reply #462 on: July 02, 2015, 04:13:47 AM »

I would have called the film Love & Cello and focused on Mike's gift for the hook and the triplets VDP is said to have fathered.

 LOL

Or Cello & Mercy, lol.
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« Reply #463 on: July 02, 2015, 04:30:01 AM »

I'm not interested in commenting on the Twitter stuff, but ...

It's pretty obvious to me that Van Dyke Parks had a strong musical influence on the Smile recordings. And that influence I think is notably missing from Smiley Smile (minus the older sessions). Just something to think about ... let's give credit where credit is due. I don't think BW would deny it either. The "Americana" musical streak is something I don't hear in any other BB work, yet is present on most VDP material. I'm sure BW would confirm.

Anyway, just to balance what seems to be a lot of discrediting going on in this thread.

Agreed.  It's frustrating to read so many posts minimizing his contributions.  If you don't hear it, you're not listening.

So, what did he do?

Did he write any music?

Did he craft any arrangements?

Van Dyke said he didn't. Or, at least before the last couple of months he said he didn't.

Do you guys knows better than the guy who actually co-wrote the songs with Brian?

I wrote "musical influence" for a reason. That is what he did. He influenced Brian, and he collaborated with him. "Come to the Sunshine" (pre-Smile) and Song Cycle are both in a similar vein to Smile in my opinion. In fact, I think Song Cycle is the closest thing to a completed Smile-type album released in the '60s. That is not to say Smiley Smile is not great (it's one of my favorite records of all-time), but it's something different entirely. I'm not saying that BW wasn't 100% in charge of Smile, and that is wasn't his record ... or comparing the talents of the two. What I am saying though, is that Smile was a collaboration. I find it strange that we are discussing this on a board that spent much of it's life obsessing about minute details of this record ... it should be taken for granted that Van Dyke Parks was a co-creator of Smile. Personally, I think more than Tony Asher was a co-creator of Pet Sounds. Perhaps that's the distinction. I saw a number of posts earlier that seemed to suggest Van Dyke handed over some lyric sheets to Brian, then Brian moved on to the next guy or something (the term one poster used was "glorified scribe"). Van looms larger than any of Brian's other co-writers (aside from Mike Love) in the Beach Boys saga.

I used the term "glorified scribe" because Van himself used it in a famous quote. Just as he, for decades, claimed to have been a sort of word soldier to Brian's request for lyrics. Wirestone put a link up in this thread in which he states this again. To be fair, he also claims to have contributed the odd musical idea, the cello triplets being specifically mentioned.

Thing is, Van has every right in the world to claim due credit for ideas such as the cello triplets. The movie-makers had every right in the world not to include a scene depicting Van coming up with such idea because that was not the point of the scene that included such triplets.

In the end, who has been proven right? The makers of An American Family, of course. Those guys (God bless them and their silly product) left Van Dyke's name out of the movie. They invented a Van-like character, and did not quote any of his lyrics. Gross story-telling, indeed. But they knew that VDP can be a pain up your ass.

I will say that Van has issues with Brian (and Brian has issues with Van) that date from many years ago. VDP probably thought and thinks that the "genius" campaign by Derek Taylor and the whole BW worshipping is overstated. He probably doesn't buy the "troubled genius" thing either: he's talked about spanking Brian out of an alledged craziness, and he's never talked seriously about any mental issue that I know of. There must have been other quibbles, like during the making of TLOS. And Van is a guy that sometimes can't let go. His unncessary mentions of Mike Love for decades show that.

Anyhow, here's a troubled relationship, and Van seems to be at a stage in his life that he'll keep no bullets.
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« Reply #464 on: July 02, 2015, 06:29:30 AM »

I'm not interested in commenting on the Twitter stuff, but ...

It's pretty obvious to me that Van Dyke Parks had a strong musical influence on the Smile recordings. And that influence I think is notably missing from Smiley Smile (minus the older sessions). Just something to think about ... let's give credit where credit is due. I don't think BW would deny it either. The "Americana" musical streak is something I don't hear in any other BB work, yet is present on most VDP material. I'm sure BW would confirm.

Anyway, just to balance what seems to be a lot of discrediting going on in this thread.

Agreed.  It's frustrating to read so many posts minimizing his contributions.  If you don't hear it, you're not listening.

So, what did he do?

Did he write any music?

Did he craft any arrangements?

Van Dyke said he didn't. Or, at least before the last couple of months he said he didn't.

Do you guys knows better than the guy who actually co-wrote the songs with Brian?

I wrote "musical influence" for a reason. That is what he did. He influenced Brian, and he collaborated with him. "Come to the Sunshine" (pre-Smile) and Song Cycle are both in a similar vein to Smile in my opinion. In fact, I think Song Cycle is the closest thing to a completed Smile-type album released in the '60s. That is not to say Smiley Smile is not great (it's one of my favorite records of all-time), but it's something different entirely. I'm not saying that BW wasn't 100% in charge of Smile, and that is wasn't his record ... or comparing the talents of the two. What I am saying though, is that Smile was a collaboration. I find it strange that we are discussing this on a board that spent much of it's life obsessing about minute details of this record ... it should be taken for granted that Van Dyke Parks was a co-creator of Smile. Personally, I think more than Tony Asher was a co-creator of Pet Sounds. Perhaps that's the distinction. I saw a number of posts earlier that seemed to suggest Van Dyke handed over some lyric sheets to Brian, then Brian moved on to the next guy or something (the term one poster used was "glorified scribe"). Van looms larger than any of Brian's other co-writers (aside from Mike Love) in the Beach Boys saga.

I used the term "glorified scribe" because Van himself used it in a famous quote. Just as he, for decades, claimed to have been a sort of word soldier to Brian's request for lyrics. Wirestone put a link up in this thread in which he states this again. To be fair, he also claims to have contributed the odd musical idea, the cello triplets being specifically mentioned.

Thing is, Van has every right in the world to claim due credit for ideas such as the cello triplets. The movie-makers had every right in the world not to include a scene depicting Van coming up with such idea because that was not the point of the scene that included such triplets.

In the end, who has been proven right? The makers of An American Family, of course. Those guys (God bless them and their silly product) left Van Dyke's name out of the movie. They invented a Van-like character, and did not quote any of his lyrics. Gross story-telling, indeed. But they knew that VDP can be a pain up your ass.

I will say that Van has issues with Brian (and Brian has issues with Van) that date from many years ago. VDP probably thought and thinks that the "genius" campaign by Derek Taylor and the whole BW worshipping is overstated. He probably doesn't buy the "troubled genius" thing either: he's talked about spanking Brian out of an alledged craziness, and he's never talked seriously about any mental issue that I know of. There must have been other quibbles, like during the making of TLOS. And Van is a guy that sometimes can't let go. His unncessary mentions of Mike Love for decades show that.

Anyhow, here's a troubled relationship, and Van seems to be at a stage in his life that he'll keep no bullets.


Is the "glorified scribe" self- description any different from Dennis referring to The BB's as Brian's messengers?  I guess that I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference.  Except that maybe Dennis' version was fully deferential to Brian.  And maybe the other fellow's characterization had a hint of disparagement to the role. 

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« Reply #465 on: July 02, 2015, 07:03:48 AM »

I would have called the film Love & Cello and focused on Mike's gift for the hook and the triplets VDP is said to have fathered.

 LOL

Or Cello & Mercy, lol.

Maybe someone will do a movie about Park's SMiLE contributions and Brian's obsession with Phil Spector. They can call it "Cello My Baby."
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« Reply #466 on: July 02, 2015, 07:13:57 AM »

Hang On To Your Cello
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« Reply #467 on: July 02, 2015, 07:24:00 AM »

Hang On To Your Cello
Hang on to your triplets!  Violin
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« Reply #468 on: July 02, 2015, 12:19:17 PM »

Smart Cellos?

Or how about "Gettin' In Over My Cellos"?

No?

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« Reply #469 on: July 02, 2015, 12:51:53 PM »

California Cellos.
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« Reply #470 on: July 02, 2015, 06:44:14 PM »

Is it hot as cello in here or is it me? It really is a mystery...
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« Reply #471 on: July 02, 2015, 06:57:32 PM »

Goodbye, sure thing, cello god.
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« Reply #472 on: July 02, 2015, 07:01:41 PM »

Clang Of The Yankee Twitter
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« Reply #473 on: July 02, 2015, 08:00:20 PM »

LOL ^ LOL
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« Reply #474 on: July 02, 2015, 09:00:35 PM »

Okay, one more then I'll leave the poor guy alone.

Bad Vibrations
(cello triplets by VDP. Bass by Carol Kaye)

I... I love to twit on Twitter now
And opinionate on Facebook every day
I haven't seen this film anyhow
But that won't stop me having my own say
 
I'm sending out bad vibrations
Film didn't meet my expectations
I'm sending out bad vibrations
caustic comments, irritations
Bad, bad, bad, bad vibrations
Bad, bad, bad, bad vibrations

Close your eyes
You can hear my cellos now
Softly tickling triplets in your ear
When it's a bass you hear
It's Carol even when she wasn't there

I'm sending out bad vibrations
Film didn't meet my expectations
I'm sending out bad vibrations
caustic comments, irritations
Bad, bad, bad, bad vibrations
Bad, bad, bad, bad vibrations

Ahhhhhh....

I don't know why but I'm an old fart now

(ah my, my what a sensation)

(ah my, my what elations)

Gotta keep those twitt'ring bad vibrations poking atcha, Brian
Gotta keep those twitt'ring bad vibrations poking atcha, Brian

Ahhhh….

Bad, bad, bad, bad vibrations
Bad, bad, bad, bad vibrations


Columnated ruins domino
Columnated ruins domino
Columnated ruins domino
Columnated ruins domino
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