Van Dyke Barks

[D Cunningham]

I've always disliked the cello bit in Good Vibrations.  I would have used rapid, descending
bass guitar (higher notes) arpeggios.  But I will always love Parks' statement in the American
Band video about the legitimacy of a band that sang about the place where the ocean water touched
the shore.  Very Shakespearean that.  Don't care much for what gets said today.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

This appears to be a follow up, but it doesn't make anything any clearer:

https://twitter.com/thevandykeparks/status/612320604876767232

Sounds like a lame cop-out. "Oh, it was just a satire!" Umm...how?

[Mike's Beard]

Even without Smile, VDP is a great artist. But what I really wanted to add, considering his tweets (I follow him, a true gent) is that he is also hurt by Love and Mercy not giving him credit for the cello on GV.

Didn't Brian say in an interview during C50 that the cello was Carl's idea?

[SMiLE Brian]

Nice 1970s BW look!

[kermit27]

Even without Smile, VDP is a great artist. But what I really wanted to add, considering his tweets (I follow him, a true gent) is that he is also hurt by Love and Mercy not giving him credit for the cello on GV.

Didn't Brian say in an interview during C50 that the cello was Carl's idea?

Yeah, he must have, because I was thinking the exact same thing.

[If Mars had life on it...]

yes, on the "Doin' it Again" DVD

[Hank Briarstem]

True? Untrue? I am an old man, but Brian makes the claim about Carl and the GV cello use in this article from 1988.

https://web.archive.org/web/19980630154219/http://www.petsounds.com/bam.pdf

[Gregg]

This appears to be a follow up, but it doesn't make anything any clearer:

https://twitter.com/thevandykeparks/status/612320604876767232

Oh, the unmitigated gall of that alliterating fool!

[puni puni]

If he claims to have made contributions other than lyrics, well that's new. He's made those "glorified scribe", "I got a Volvo out of the deal", "Brian gave me dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah.... and I gave him lyrics for that" quotes for years. He never claimed credit for the music before. And I don't think he's doing so now.

His only other claims include the cello suggestion and playing some instruments. Unfortunately I've not heard any corroborations for VDP regarding the cello bit. During C50, Brian said to Mike that Carl suggested the cello, which surprised Mike. I'm sure there are other people who could say "Yes, the cello was thanks to VDP" but I'm not sure how many of them are still alive.

Brian says it was Carl on most occasions. During the Theremin Odyssey documentary, he also claimed that the theremin was added after the cello. We know this doesn't add up chronologically. Other time he says he doesn't remember a single thing about writing or recording Good Vibrations. So it's not impossible that he's mistaken.

Brian has people heaping praise upon his genius everywhere he turns.  Who knows, maybe when something a little irreverent comes from someone Brian actually knows, the guy steps back and has himself a laugh?

I don't know.  I guess I don't see the same malicious intend behind it that some others do.  To me, it came off simply as VDP having a little fun of noting Brian's birthday.

That sounds about right.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If he claims to have made contributions other than lyrics, well that's new. He's made those "glorified scribe", "I got a Volvo out of the deal", "Brian gave me dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah.... and I gave him lyrics for that" quotes for years. He never claimed credit for the music before. And I don't think he's doing so now.

His only other claims include the cello suggestion and playing some instruments. Unfortunately I've not heard any corroborations for VDP regarding the cello bit. During C50, Brian said to Mike that Carl suggested the cello, which surprised Mike. I'm sure there are other people who could say "Yes, the cello was thanks to VDP" but I'm not sure how many of them are still alive.

Brian says it was Carl on most occasions. During the Theremin Odyssey documentary, he also claimed that the theremin was added after the cello. We know this doesn't add up chronologically. Other time he says he doesn't remember a single thing about writing or recording Good Vibrations. So it's not impossible that he's mistaken.

Brian has people heaping praise upon his genius everywhere he turns.  Who knows, maybe when something a little irreverent comes from someone Brian actually knows, the guy steps back and has himself a laugh?

I don't know.  I guess I don't see the same malicious intend behind it that some others do.  To me, it came off simply as VDP having a little fun of noting Brian's birthday.

That sounds about right.

Why are we surprised? Brian's memory is notoriously faulty especially regarding this period

[puni puni]

Yeah but I'm expecting some people to use this as the sole exception where Brian is the absolute authority on what went down 50 years ago -- just to spite VDP.

[guitarfool2002]

For the record there is a Brian interview in Harvey Kubernik's book where he credits both Carl and Van Dyke with the ideas for a cello on GV.

And here is Carl interview from 1989 from a Guitar magazine I scanned and posted here a few years ago:

[Cam Mott]

I think I find VDP's claim is more credible maybe unless Brian and Carl mean it in some way I don't get.

“For example, Good Vibrations, the cello. The man played the fundamental to the chords, and this is Jesse Ehrlich, he came in and played the cello, see, to make it right. Now I couldn’t play the cello. Brian went into the talkback  in the control booth, the first string player that he had ever assailed of such veteran ability and he said 'Barko, Barko, the man played Good Vibrations, Sound Sound the studio sensation'. It was no longer the performance, something tremendously individual happened that only improved the value of the group, to enforce the performance. I have a feeling that Good Vibrations is what guides me…”  VDP [LLVS p. 68]


“I worked as a studio musician for Brian Wilson during Pet Sounds, playing what he dictated on keyboards and marimba. I've always been gratified he accepted my suggestion for the cello triplets on 'Good Vibrations', so it can be said that I made one  clear musical contribution.” VDP 12/25/98

"I suggested to Brian Wilson that he put a cello on 'Good Vibrations.' He did, and it became a signature sound of that song. I also suggested the triplet fundamentals in the music. I did that." VDP  http://www.newtimesla.com/issues/2000-04-06/music.html


“I didn't casually suggest the cello in "Good Vibrations". In fact, the triplets in this pedal point became a signature part of the production. There was nothing casual about it. And it worked.” VDP  http://www.l-m-c.org.uk/texts/parks.html

Those links might be obsolete now.

[Dave in KC]

Credit is everything in the music and movie business. I think Van Dyke Parks was in sort of a Wag The Dog situation with Brian and Smile. He was under credited for his some of his contributions and uncredited for others; orchestration for one.

If he has feelings about that, it is perfectly natural and understandable. I don't have a problem with him airing his opinions, observations and feelings on his social media site.

But then...just be an adult and honestly say so. I dont care if he and Brian are friends or what. But if you dont like him, either keep it to yourself or explain why. Dont just fling barbs whenever you get the chance, its not going to get you any respect. However, if he really was the mastermind behind a lot of the arrangements (and not just lyrics) for SMiLE, thats awesome and Id have a lot more respect for him if he just said so. Id believe it too, itd really explain why Brian says hes his best collaborator--because he challenged Brian and forced him to create better music than if he were left to his own devices.

Could you elaborate a bit on the possibility of Van Dyke being the possible mastermind behind the Smile arrangements? I have never heard him contributing more than the lyrics on the project, much less potentially being the mastermind behind the arrangements.  

I was just responding to someone else's theory that maybe he feels gyped that no one credits the whole of his contribution to SMiLE. I don't think he's the mastermind behind the arrangements per se, but it was his idea to include cellos in GV.Supposedly one other point of contention between the two was his feelings that Brian wasn't going far enough. That his arrangements should be more complex.  And Brian thought VDP was asking for too much. I don't have a source for this tho. Anyway, it stands to reason VDP would shoot off ideas about this kind of thing to Brian. Unlike Asher, he was a seasoned, trained musician. And he was willing to be just as out there as Brian wanted to go.

Considering one of them is a R&R Hall of Famer with numerous songs classified both as massive hits AND artistically significant, and the other is Van Dyke Parks, well...time has borne out which was 'right'.

Perhaps. I do think the two of them together was a match made in heaven in any case. I liked a song or two on Song Cycle but overall it rubbed me the wrong way. Haven't listened to VDPs other stuff. Pet Sounds is amazing but I think SMiLE is still head and shoulders above it and VDP is to be credited for writing lyrics as layered as the instrumentation. And if it turns out some of *that* was his idea too...so much the better. He obviously pushed Brian to be better because he (Brian) never made anything half as great since, and Brian reigned in his pretentiousness and gave it a catchy sincerity to make it relatable. I'd say they were both right. Or neither was right.

I'm pretty sure I read about that disagreement here on the forum. An earlier thread discussing some article from LLVS

Pick up VDP Recorded Live at the Ash Grove. Very good.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Yeah but I'm expecting some people to use this as the sole exception where Brian is the absolute authority on what went down 50 years ago -- just to spite VDP.

 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Credit is everything in the music and movie business. I think Van Dyke Parks was in sort of a Wag The Dog situation with Brian and Smile. He was under credited for his some of his contributions and uncredited for others; orchestration for one.

If he has feelings about that, it is perfectly natural and understandable. I don't have a problem with him airing his opinions, observations and feelings on his social media site.

But then...just be an adult and honestly say so. I dont care if he and Brian are friends or what. But if you dont like him, either keep it to yourself or explain why. Dont just fling barbs whenever you get the chance, its not going to get you any respect. However, if he really was the mastermind behind a lot of the arrangements (and not just lyrics) for SMiLE, thats awesome and Id have a lot more respect for him if he just said so. Id believe it too, itd really explain why Brian says hes his best collaborator--because he challenged Brian and forced him to create better music than if he were left to his own devices.

Could you elaborate a bit on the possibility of Van Dyke being the possible mastermind behind the Smile arrangements? I have never heard him contributing more than the lyrics on the project, much less potentially being the mastermind behind the arrangements.  

I was just responding to someone else's theory that maybe he feels gyped that no one credits the whole of his contribution to SMiLE. I don't think he's the mastermind behind the arrangements per se, but it was his idea to include cellos in GV.Supposedly one other point of contention between the two was his feelings that Brian wasn't going far enough. That his arrangements should be more complex.  And Brian thought VDP was asking for too much. I don't have a source for this tho. Anyway, it stands to reason VDP would shoot off ideas about this kind of thing to Brian. Unlike Asher, he was a seasoned, trained musician. And he was willing to be just as out there as Brian wanted to go.

Considering one of them is a R&R Hall of Famer with numerous songs classified both as massive hits AND artistically significant, and the other is Van Dyke Parks, well...time has borne out which was 'right'.

Perhaps. I do think the two of them together was a match made in heaven in any case. I liked a song or two on Song Cycle but overall it rubbed me the wrong way. Haven't listened to VDPs other stuff. Pet Sounds is amazing but I think SMiLE is still head and shoulders above it and VDP is to be credited for writing lyrics as layered as the instrumentation. And if it turns out some of *that* was his idea too...so much the better. He obviously pushed Brian to be better because he (Brian) never made anything half as great since, and Brian reigned in his pretentiousness and gave it a catchy sincerity to make it relatable. I'd say they were both right. Or neither was right.

I'm pretty sure I read about that disagreement here on the forum. An earlier thread discussing some article from LLVS

Pick up VDP Recorded Live at the Ash Grove. Very good.

Thanks, I'll give it a shot

[Shady]

If smile did come out way back when it probably would have been heralded as the greatest album of all time, lord knows how many millions it would have sold and what it would have done for Van's career.

Maybe as he get's older it's been bothering him more that smile got shelved and holds some resentment towards Brian for it.

I don't know, in my opinion it's the only way to explain Van's cheap shots at Brian.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If smile did come out way back when it probably would have been heralded as the greatest album of all time, lord knows how many millions it would have sold and what it would have done for Van's career.

Maybe as he get's older it's been bothering him more that smile got shelved and holds some resentment towards Brian for it.

I don't know, in my opinion it's the only way to explain Van's cheap shots at Brian.

100% agree with that first paragraph.

For the speculation...I can see it. Makes sense.

[clack]

If smile did come out way back when it probably would have been heralded as the greatest album of all time, lord knows how many millions it would have sold and what it would have done for Van's career.

Maybe as he get's older it's been bothering him more that smile got shelved and holds some resentment towards Brian for it.

I don't know, in my opinion it's the only way to explain Van's cheap shots at Brian.

It would have been a commercial disappointment -- too arty for the mainstream, too pop for the counterculture. I can see it having become a cult hit critically, though, along the lines of 'Forever Changes'.

Much better for Brian's rep that it went unreleased, so as to develop its legend as a lost masterpiece.

[Shady]

If smile did come out way back when it probably would have been heralded as the greatest album of all time, lord knows how many millions it would have sold and what it would have done for Van's career.

Maybe as he get's older it's been bothering him more that smile got shelved and holds some resentment towards Brian for it.

I don't know, in my opinion it's the only way to explain Van's cheap shots at Brian.

It would have been a commercial disappointment -- too arty for the mainstream, too pop for the counterculture. I can see it having become a cult hit critically, though, along the lines of 'Forever Changes'.

Much better for Brian's rep that it went unreleased, so as to develop its legend as a lost masterpiece.

I disagree, with Good Vibes on there it could've been a huge hit

[Komera]

No one has seemingly noticed that Van Dyke posted four tweets on the 20th to celebrate famous people that celebrated their birthday that day. In every tweet he said something about the genius of the people (f.e. Chet Atkins and Eroll Flynn), but Brian's tweet was just a shred of I Get Around. Like he wanted to make a point that the other people were really geniuses and modest people and Brian wasn't.

I noticed.  That's why I mentioned it in black in the Happy Birthday, Brian thread.

[CenturyDeprived]

If smile did come out way back when it probably would have been heralded as the greatest album of all time, lord knows how many millions it would have sold and what it would have done for Van's career.

Maybe as he get's older it's been bothering him more that smile got shelved and holds some resentment towards Brian for it.

I don't know, in my opinion it's the only way to explain Van's cheap shots at Brian.

100% agree with that first paragraph.

For the speculation...I can see it. Makes sense.

Also 100% agree with that first paragraph.

As for the recent Van/Brian apparent falling out... I am guessing (based on pure speculation) that it has to do with money/credits or something of that nature, a circumstance specifically relating to the release of TSS in 2011 in which perhaps Van felt he got the short end of the stick in some way. The details/parameters are of course shrouded in complete mystery to us, but I would be very surprised if it were anything other than something in the ballpark of what I've described. I also suspect that the release of TSS and C50 were in some way interconnected, so who knows how that could (or maybe not, if I'm utterly wrong) have affected Van's point of view, if bargaining chips were maneuvered around in a way that affected him negatively. Maybe promises were broken in some way, and Van didn't get his version of a "room" with Brian. I dunno. I have a feeling I'd have some empathy for Van's gripes if I knew what they were specifically.

But it really must ultimately come down to feeling slighted and shortchanged in some fashion.

Mike and Van are perhaps the two guys in BB history who got shafted the most, though obviously in very different ways. For all the ways that Mike felt slighted for his being deprived of credits for decades, at least Mike was nonetheless a multimillionaire many times over from touring, as well as for making money of the other hit songs he was in fact credited on.  That had to have significantly eased the pain of his legitimate gripes from the credits.

Comparatively, Van really must have fallen on hard times to do session work on Summer in Paradise, and I don't blame him for probably having quite a lot of resentment (which perhaps has gotten way worse over time, and apparently has magnified since whenever the recent falling out happened) surely over the factors (and people) he blames at least in part for why SMiLE never came out originally. It sucks that he has found no other way to express himself but to vent in the way that he has apparently chosen. I'm sure he has his reasons, though I can't say he's doing himself any favors, and I wonder if he knows, or at 72, if he gives a hoot about that either.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If smile did come out way back when it probably would have been heralded as the greatest album of all time, lord knows how many millions it would have sold and what it would have done for Van's career.

Maybe as he get's older it's been bothering him more that smile got shelved and holds some resentment towards Brian for it.

I don't know, in my opinion it's the only way to explain Van's cheap shots at Brian.

It would have been a commercial disappointment -- too arty for the mainstream, too pop for the counterculture. I can see it having become a cult hit critically, though, along the lines of 'Forever Changes'.

Much better for Brian's rep that it went unreleased, so as to develop its legend as a lost masterpiece.

I'm sorry but this myth really needs to die.

Pet Sounds went top ten and its sales were underreported by Capitol so it probably did even better. They were voted the #1 group in the world. GV was #1 and their biggest hit yet. They were just as hot as they ever were. Capitol hyped up SMiLE big time. The Brian is a genius mantra was ramping up and getting people excited. SMiLE very well could have went #1 had it come out in January as planned. It probably would have went top ten as long as it came out prior to June and was at least released neck and neck with Pepper.

I'm not sure why the "Pet Sounds flopped"/"SMiLE would have flopped" talking points are so prevalent but they have no basis in fact. Sgt Pepper is pop. I'd say even outright fluff. And it went number one and for reasons I still can't figure out, got hailed as some innovative masterpiece. SMiLE is ten times are innovative. It's also more daring, in how it tackles mature themes in an unapologetic way while seamlessly merging them with the classic Beach Boys sound.

It may not have been as impactful at the time as Pepper just because the Beatles are the Beatles. But it would have been a hit. People who appreciate great music would have respected it over Pepper. And as time wore on, it's stature would grow, similar to Pet Sounds, to where it would be hailed as the best album from 1967. Of that, I'm sure.

SMiLE not coming out in 1967 isn't good. It severely damaged Brian's confidence and the band's reputation. It robbed the musical world of a masterpiece and the counterculture of a more worthy banner to rally behind.  

[CenturyDeprived]

If smile did come out way back when it probably would have been heralded as the greatest album of all time, lord knows how many millions it would have sold and what it would have done for Van's career.

Maybe as he get's older it's been bothering him more that smile got shelved and holds some resentment towards Brian for it.

I don't know, in my opinion it's the only way to explain Van's cheap shots at Brian.

It would have been a commercial disappointment -- too arty for the mainstream, too pop for the counterculture. I can see it having become a cult hit critically, though, along the lines of 'Forever Changes'.

Much better for Brian's rep that it went unreleased, so as to develop its legend as a lost masterpiece.

I'm sorry but this myth really needs to die.

Pet Sounds went top ten and its sales were underreported by Capitol so it probably did even better. They were voted the #1 group in the world. GV was #1 and their biggest hit yet. They were just as hot as they ever were. Capitol hyped up SMiLE big time. The Brian is a genius mantra was ramping up and getting people excited. SMiLE very well could have went #1 had it come out in January as planned. It probably would have went top ten as long as it came out prior to June and was at least released neck and neck with Pepper.

I'm not sure why the "Pet Sounds flopped"/"SMiLE would have flopped" talking points are so prevalent but they have no basis in fact. Sgt Pepper is pop. I'd say even outright fluff. And it went number one and for reasons I still can't figure out, got hailed as some innovative masterpiece. SMiLE is ten times are innovative. It's also more daring, in how it tackles mature themes in an unapologetic way while seamlessly merging them with the classic Beach Boys sound.

It may not have been as impactful at the time as Pepper just because the Beatles are the Beatles. But it would have been a hit. People who appreciate great music would have respected it over Pepper. And as time wore on, it's stature would grow, similar to Pet Sounds, to where it would be hailed as the best album from 1967. Of that, I'm sure.

SMiLE not coming out in 1967 isn't good. It severely damaged Brian's confidence and the band's reputation. It robbed the musical world of a masterpiece and the counterculture of a more worthy banner to rally behind.  

+1.

Even if SMiLE hadn't been as culturally or chartwise Earth-shattering upon its initial release in 1967 (if it had come out then), I have little doubt that in a few short years from that point, that it would have really, majorly be seen as a complete masterpiece of innovation and psychedelia by the early 70s. It would have been a game-changer for the BBs, as well as influential on pop music + other bands for decades.

[clack]

If smile did come out way back when it probably would have been heralded as the greatest album of all time, lord knows how many millions it would have sold and what it would have done for Van's career.

Maybe as he get's older it's been bothering him more that smile got shelved and holds some resentment towards Brian for it.

I don't know, in my opinion it's the only way to explain Van's cheap shots at Brian.

It would have been a commercial disappointment -- too arty for the mainstream, too pop for the counterculture. I can see it having become a cult hit critically, though, along the lines of 'Forever Changes'.

Much better for Brian's rep that it went unreleased, so as to develop its legend as a lost masterpiece.

I'm sorry but this myth really needs to die.

Pet Sounds went top ten and its sales were underreported by Capitol so it probably did even better. They were voted the #1 group in the world. GV was #1 and their biggest hit yet. They were just as hot as they ever were. Capitol hyped up SMiLE big time. The Brian is a genius mantra was ramping up and getting people excited. SMiLE very well could have went #1 had it come out in January as planned. It probably would have went top ten as long as it came out prior to June and was at least released neck and neck with Pepper.

I'm not sure why the "Pet Sounds flopped"/"SMiLE would have flopped" talking points are so prevalent but they have no basis in fact. Sgt Pepper is pop. I'd say even outright fluff. And it went number one and for reasons I still can't figure out, got hailed as some innovative masterpiece. SMiLE is ten times are innovative. It's also more daring, in how it tackles mature themes in an unapologetic way while seamlessly merging them with the classic Beach Boys sound.

It may not have been as impactful at the time as Pepper just because the Beatles are the Beatles. But it would have been a hit. People who appreciate great music would have respected it over Pepper. And as time wore on, it's stature would grow, similar to Pet Sounds, to where it would be hailed as the best album from 1967. Of that, I'm sure.

SMiLE not coming out in 1967 isn't good. It severely damaged Brian's confidence and the band's reputation. It robbed the musical world of a masterpiece and the counterculture of a more worthy banner to rally behind.  

Did I say that SMiLE would have flopped? I said it would have been a commercial disappointment -- a couple of weeks in the top ten, say, and not a #1, and certainly not selling "millions and millions". Sgt Pepper didn't sell millions.

Sure, the Beach Boys were hot late '66, but were they really the #1 band in the world? Talk about myths. Some UK music mag voted them the #1 vocal group, that's all.