Van Dyke Barks

[shadownoze]

Oh, and was there a session that was cancelled because Brian wandered the studio for two hours not liking "the vibrations"? If so, I can't recall reading about one. The last, cancelled "Dada" date maybe? Does anyone have a source for this scene?

Yes, this happened. It was in the Goodbye Surfing, Hello God article by Jules Siegel that appeared in Crawdaddy magazine...the one with the Mama Cass centerfold.

[SBonilla]

...a guy no one here would know, had Brian not invited him to work on an album 50 years ago.

Speak for yourself.

[Robbie Mac]

I'd never thought I would see the day where Mike Love is more popular than Van Dyke Parks.

[Robbie Mac]

...a guy no one here would know, had Brian not invited him to work on an album 50 years ago.

Speak for yourself.

This. Pretty sure his gigs with the Byrds and Disney predated SMILE.

[Komera]

I'd never thought I would see the day where Mike Love is more popular than Van Dyke Parks.

I was actually thinking that last night.

[The_Holy_Bee]

At the same time, I don't want to come off as one of those people that just comes here to troll and rag on someone.

Hi Paul, I didn't think you were trolling, and I appreciate where you're coming from. As it happens, I was into Van Dyke Parks before I knew he co-wrote the Smile tracks (this is back in the late nineties when I was in my teens), but I admit this is probably untrue of most people, especially here.

But Brian did invite him to work on that album 50 years ago, and then again eleven years ago, and they did work on it together both times. (Incidentally, does anyone know the financial arrangements in 2004? I believe Parks was salaried in '66, right, as well as receiving writing royalties?) Van Dyke might think that that - as well as "Sail On Sailor", OCA, TLOS contributions etc - should mean he has earned some consideration and due credit when those collaborations are covered in an authorised Brian Wilson product such as this movie. Whether you or I are here because of Brian Wilson or Van Dyke Parks or Mike Love or Darian's Astonishingly Tall Hair is really beside the point.

As a matter of fact, I came here when the old Smile Shop Boards shut down (which indeed was largely why these forums were created), so no - I'm not here because of Brian Wilson. I'm here because of the SMiLE album, which is primarily a collection of songs conceived of and written by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, with documented musical input from both. Who approached or paid who in 1966 simply isn't relevant. I'm here because of a thing they did together. And even if I wasn't, this is a thread devoted to Brian-focussed activity on Van Dyke Parks' personal Twitter account. Am I not understanding the internet again? Isn't this a reasonable place to talk about this, in an open, reasonable and reasoned way?

Do you actually feel this thread shouldn't be open to a more considered or balanced discussion of those tweets than just "[Van Dyke] is behaving like... a horse's ass"? Or are you simply not interested in any position less equivocal than "Brian is great, Van Dyke is being mean"? Which is totally fair enough - that's completely your call, and I suspect quite a few folk agree with you. But - and I'm really not trying to be a jerk here - if that's the case, maybe a thread dedicated to exactly the subject matter making you so disgruntled isn't the best place to hang out? Or should I have seen the Thread title and realised this probably wasn't the place for the kind of discourse I think's worth having? Quite possibly.

Anyway, I thought NPP was a total blinder too - just fantastic.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Oh, and was there a session that was cancelled because Brian wandered the studio for two hours not liking "the vibrations"? If so, I can't recall reading about one. The last, cancelled "Dada" date maybe? Does anyone have a source for this scene?

Yes, this happened. It was in the Goodbye Surfing, Hello God article by Jules Siegel that appeared in Crawdaddy magazine...the one with the Mama Cass centerfold.

Thank you! Good to have that clarified.

[Hank Briarstem]

At the same time, I don't want to come off as one of those people that just comes here to troll and rag on someone.

Hi Paul, I didn't think you were trolling, and I appreciate where you're coming from. As it happens, I was into Van Dyke Parks before I knew he co-wrote the Smile tracks (this is back in the late nineties when I was in my teens), but I admit this is probably untrue of most people, especially here.

But Brian did invite him to work on that album 50 years ago, and then again eleven years ago, and they did work on it together both times. (Incidentally, does anyone know the financial arrangements in 2004? I believe Parks was salaried in '66, right, as well as receiving writing royalties?) Van Dyke might think that that - as well as "Sail On Sailor", OCA, TLOS contributions etc - should mean he has earned some consideration and due credit when those collaborations are covered in an authorised Brian Wilson product such as this movie. Whether you or I are here because of Brian Wilson or Van Dyke Parks or Mike Love or Darian's Astonishingly Tall Hair is really beside the point.

As a matter of fact, I came here when the old Smile Shop Boards shut down (which indeed was largely why these forums were created), so no - I'm not here because of Brian Wilson. I'm here because of the SMiLE album, which is primarily a collection of songs conceived of and written by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, with documented musical input from both. Who approached or paid who in 1966 simply isn't relevant. I'm here because of a thing they did together. And even if I wasn't, this is a thread devoted to Brian-focussed activity on Van Dyke Parks' personal Twitter account. Am I not understanding the internet again? Isn't this a reasonable place to talk about this, in an open, reasonable and reasoned way?

Do you actually feel this thread shouldn't be open to a more considered or balanced discussion of those tweets than just "[Van Dyke] is behaving like... a horse's ass"? Or are you simply not interested in any position less equivocal than "Brian is great, Van Dyke is being mean"? Which is totally fair enough - that's completely your call, and I suspect quite a few folk agree with you. But - and I'm really not trying to be a jerk here - if that's the case, maybe a thread dedicated to exactly the subject matter making you so disgruntled isn't the best place to hang out? Or should I have seen the Thread title and realised this probably wasn't the place for the kind of discourse I think's worth having? Quite possibly.

Anyway, I thought NPP was a total blinder too - just fantastic.

Ah yes. "Barks" was employed as a verb in much the same way VDP might have done. And I do believe he is doing some barking.

[Wirestone]

It makes me sad. I like Van Dyke very much, and I wish he felt better about his association with BW.

[The Shift]

It makes me sad. I like Van Dyke very much, and I wish he felt better about his association with BW.

Same here. I hope they don't live out their time with this estrangement unresolved (and maybe explained to the rest of us watching from the sidelines). That hyphen threw me…

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

It makes me sad. I like Van Dyke very much, and I wish he felt better about his association with BW.

Same here. I hope they don't live out their time with this estrangement unresolved (and maybe explained to the rest of us watching from the sidelines). That hyphen threw me…

Thirded. SMiLE is my favorite work of art from anyone in any medium. It's a shame the men who made it aren't on good terms.

Slightly off-topic, and I haven't seen it yet either, but it's a shame that the SMiLE scenes in the movie supposedly only focus on the "craziness" too if that really is the case. It deserves better, and while it's not the focus of it, the movie could have done a lot to introduce people to that material and show how brilliant it is. That Brian didn't just make Pet Sounds and disappear. I can understand vdp's beef if that's what's bugging him, but I don't think it is, and in any case he's going about it in the worst way possible. Just be honest, Van, if you're reading. Be sincere and eloquent about it. But the snarky tweets are so beneath him it's pathetic.

[ash]

It makes me sad. I like Van Dyke very much, and I wish he felt better about his association with BW.

 Couldn't agree more.

[SBonilla]

Before this thread appeared how many people here ever used the word, "snarky?"

[SBonilla]

...But Brian did invite him to work on that album 50 years ago,...

 Who approached or paid who in 1966 simply isn't relevant. I'm here because of...

Wasn't it David Anderle, as Van Dyke Parks manager,  who brought Brian and Van together?

And, did David Anderle fully act with his client's best interest in mind? Could there have been a conflict of interest? Could his hands have been somewhat tied with regard to what he could have gotten for Van Dyke? Meaning, co-production credits, his own publishing for the songs written for the project.


Van Dyke Parks put a ton of sweat equity into Smile. He got the legal minimum in return: co-songwriting credit.

Carl Wilson did the same thing for The Beach Boys and Brian Wilson on Love You. When the producer of the LP could not deliver a finished product. Carl stepped in as a Producer (be it, Associate, Co- or some other title) to finish it so that WB would accept it.  Earle Mankey was also a co-producer on more than one track.
They were both uncredited. Did it matter to either one? I can't say. But, a producer credit means points; points mean ownership, recognition and another potential revenue source. 

[Cam Mott]

The Vosse Posse told us that Brian and Van Dyke got along at first then they didn't get along and Van Dyke didn't like being dominated or told "no" and Brian would tell him "no" just because he could and they "clashed" with Van Dyke thinking Brian's music wasn't sophisticated enough and Brian thinking Van Dyke's lyrics were too sophisticated and eventually they couldn't work together. (paraphrasing)

So conflicted and/or hard feelings toward each other aren't exactly news imo.

[Paul J B]

First, there is something wrong with that quote box, cause my name is there but no quote from me.

Olmec, so you and Bee are both big Parks fans and that's a prime reason why you are here? OK. Most everyone here comes to discuss Brian and the Beach Boys. Were there no Brian there would have been no Beach Boys, were there no Beach Boys, people HERE would not exist as there would be no Smiley Smile Dot Net message board to discuss Parks. You seem to imply that I don't think Parks would have had a career without Brian/Smile. Not at all, and I don't care one way or the other.

Parks has overstepped his bounds and is looking for way too much credit or wants to marginalize Brian or some freakish thing because of some apparent beef with Melinda, Brian and who knows whom else. And yes, I will say again he his being an absolute horses ass. I was never real big on Parks but I also never felt any animosity towards him until recently.

You in particular Olmec, seem to be going out of your way to defend the indefensible. You remind me of the parent that gets a call from their child's school because their child has done something wrong, and then you blame your child's teacher, friends, or what have you instead of your own child that did the wrong thing.

Have you been reading carefully all of the posts by other people that are pretty big on Parks and how they are really disappointed or downright disgusted as well?

The career of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys did not begin and end with Smile, and certainly not with Parks.

Also, if you believe like Parks, that his 'tweets' are justified then why don't you contact him and the two of you can lay it out and explain just how he is/has gotten the shaft from Brian these past 50 years. Is it all about the money? Did he want to be onstage singing beside Brian when he toured Smile ten years ago? Did he want BWPS to be titled VDP presents Smile? Was he promised a big pile of cash from Melinda and then she didn't deliver? I'm serious...please enlighten us.

I can see this will be like a Love/Wilson thread where people dig in their heels so I'm pretty much done commenting on Parks. He has lost credibility and respect with me. I'm sure he's all broken up about that.

[SBonilla]

First, there is something wrong with that quote box, cause my name is there but no quote from me.

Olmec, so you and Bee are both big Parks fans and that's a prime reason why you are here? OK. Most everyone here comes to discuss Brian and the Beach Boys. Were there no Brian there would have been no Beach Boys, were there no Beach Boys, people HERE would not exist as there would be no Smiley Smile Dot Net message board to discuss Parks. You seem to imply that I don't think Parks would have had a career without Brian/Smile. Not at all, and I don't care one way or the other.

Parks has overstepped his bounds and is looking for way too much credit or wants to marginalize Brian or some freakish thing because of some apparent beef with Melinda, Brian and who knows whom else. And yes, I will say again he his being an absolute horses ass. I was never real big on Parks but I also never felt any animosity towards him until recently.

You in particular Olmec, seem to be going out of your way to defend the indefensible. You remind me of the parent that gets a call from their child's school because their child has done something wrong, and then you blame your child's teacher, friends, or what have you instead of your own child that did the wrong thing.

Have you been reading carefully all of the posts by other people that are pretty big on Parks and how they are really disappointed or downright disgusted as well?

The career of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys did not begin and end with Smile, and certainly not with Parks.

Also, if you believe like Parks, that his 'tweets' are justified then why don't you contact him and the two of you can lay it out and explain just how he is/has gotten the shaft from Brian these past 50 years. Is it all about the money? Did he want to be onstage singing beside Brian when he toured Smile ten years ago? Did he want BWPS to be titled VDP presents Smile? Was he promised a big pile of cash from Melinda and then she didn't deliver? I'm serious...please enlighten us.

I can see this will be like a Love/Wilson thread where people dig in their heels so I'm pretty much done commenting on Parks. He has lost credibility and respect with me. I'm sure he's all broken up about that.

First, sorry about the quotes.

I have been a Brian Wilson and Beach Boys fan since Surfin' Safari. This is why I come here.

I am not defending Van Dyke Parks' recent tweets that reference Brian, Melinda, the movie, or Smile.

[filledeplage]

It makes me sad. I like Van Dyke very much, and I wish he felt better about his association with BW.

Same here. I hope they don't live out their time with this estrangement unresolved (and maybe explained to the rest of us watching from the sidelines). That hyphen threw me…

Thirded. SMiLE is my favorite work of art from anyone in any medium. It's a shame the men who made it aren't on good terms.

Slightly off-topic, and I haven't seen it yet either, but it's a shame that the SMiLE scenes in the movie supposedly only focus on the "craziness" too if that really is the case. It deserves better, and while it's not the focus of it, the movie could have done a lot to introduce people to that material and show how brilliant it is. That Brian didn't just make Pet Sounds and disappear. I can understand vdp's beef if that's what's bugging him, but I don't think it is, and in any case he's going about it in the worst way possible. Just be honest, Van, if you're reading. Be sincere and eloquent about it. But the snarky tweets are so beneath him it's pathetic.

He did this to himself; all by himself.

[Paul J B]

Billyman..thanks. We seem to be on the same page .

I've been playing the Hawthorne CD a lot this week. It really drives home what an incredible, gifted person Brian was/is.

When the film ends and he's there with his new band having survived Landy, drugs, the bedroom years...  I was at his show in Milwaukee in '99 and that clip drove it all home fresh again. I never expected to see Brian stage front like that in the 80's or 90's. It was a small miracle right before our eyes. Melinda had quite a bit to do with that...and I will be forever grateful.

[Autotune]

Olmec, I have a hard time quoting you. But: where is it documented that Van worked equally on music issues during Smile. Not questioning you, just asking.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Delete

[SBonilla]

Olmec, I have a hard time quoting you. But: where is it documented that Van worked equally on music issues during Smile. Not questioning you, just asking.

Good question! I'll get back to you on that.

[Wirestone]

(paraphrasing)

Well, that's putting it mildly.

[chaki]

This Paul dude lost all credibility with me when he said Lindsey Buckingham wasn't a genius.

Check out VDP doing a cool version of H&V recently. Talk about arranging a track towards your strengths!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFxdAkfjeVg&list=RDAFxdAkfjeVg

[Paul J B]

This Paul dude lost all credibility with me when he said Lindsey Buckingham wasn't a genius.

Check out VDP doing a cool version of H&V recently. Talk about arranging a track towards your strengths!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFxdAkfjeVg&list=RDAFxdAkfjeVg

The name is Paul J B not Paul dude. I was going to explain that I'm a Buckingham fan but then I realized you are trolling based on that fact that all of your 5 posts are on this thread and more so the content of them.

Be advised.....if the mods don't run you off some of the hardcore dudes here will.