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Author Topic: Van Dyke Barks  (Read 85734 times)
joshferrell
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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2015, 07:26:11 PM »

thanks  lol.....not sure what to think about it...
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« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2015, 08:06:59 PM »

The video is pretty f#@king funny.
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« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2015, 08:27:27 PM »

The video is pretty f#@king funny.
yes I like the video...just not sure if he posted it because he's just being silly or if he's trying to make a statement...lol...
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« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2015, 08:34:53 PM »

Credit is everything in the music and movie business. I think Van Dyke Parks was in sort of a Wag The Dog situation with Brian and Smile. He was under credited for his some of his contributions and uncredited for others; orchestration for one.

If he has feelings about that, it is perfectly natural and understandable. I don't have a problem with him airing his opinions, observations and feelings on his social media site.

But then...just be an adult and honestly say so. I dont care if he and Brian are friends or what. But if you dont like him, either keep it to yourself or explain why. Dont just fling barbs whenever you get the chance, its not going to get you any respect. However, if he really was the mastermind behind a lot of the arrangements (and not just lyrics) for SMiLE, thats awesome and Id have a lot more respect for him if he just said so. Id believe it too, itd really explain why Brian says hes his best collaborator--because he challenged Brian and forced him to create better music than if he were left to his own devices.

Could you elaborate a bit on the possibility of Van Dyke being the possible mastermind behind the Smile arrangements? I have never heard him contributing more than the lyrics on the project, much less potentially being the mastermind behind the arrangements.  Huh
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« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2015, 09:29:00 PM »

Credit is everything in the music and movie business. I think Van Dyke Parks was in sort of a Wag The Dog situation with Brian and Smile. He was under credited for his some of his contributions and uncredited for others; orchestration for one.

If he has feelings about that, it is perfectly natural and understandable. I don't have a problem with him airing his opinions, observations and feelings on his social media site.

But then...just be an adult and honestly say so. I dont care if he and Brian are friends or what. But if you dont like him, either keep it to yourself or explain why. Dont just fling barbs whenever you get the chance, its not going to get you any respect. However, if he really was the mastermind behind a lot of the arrangements (and not just lyrics) for SMiLE, thats awesome and Id have a lot more respect for him if he just said so. Id believe it too, itd really explain why Brian says hes his best collaborator--because he challenged Brian and forced him to create better music than if he were left to his own devices.

Could you elaborate a bit on the possibility of Van Dyke being the possible mastermind behind the Smile arrangements? I have never heard him contributing more than the lyrics on the project, much less potentially being the mastermind behind the arrangements.  Huh

I was just responding to someone else's theory that maybe he feels gyped that no one credits the whole of his contribution to SMiLE. I don't think he's the mastermind behind the arrangements per se, but it was his idea to include cellos in GV. Supposedly one other point of contention between the two was his feelings that Brian wasn't going far enough. That his arrangements should be more complex. And Brian thought VDP was asking for too much. I don't have a source for this tho. Anyway, it stands to reason VDP would shoot off ideas about this kind of thing to Brian. Unlike Asher, he was a seasoned, trained musician. And he was willing to be just as out there as Brian wanted to go.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2015, 11:11:54 PM »

Credit is everything in the music and movie business. I think Van Dyke Parks was in sort of a Wag The Dog situation with Brian and Smile. He was under credited for his some of his contributions and uncredited for others; orchestration for one.

If he has feelings about that, it is perfectly natural and understandable. I don't have a problem with him airing his opinions, observations and feelings on his social media site.

But then...just be an adult and honestly say so. I dont care if he and Brian are friends or what. But if you dont like him, either keep it to yourself or explain why. Dont just fling barbs whenever you get the chance, its not going to get you any respect. However, if he really was the mastermind behind a lot of the arrangements (and not just lyrics) for SMiLE, thats awesome and Id have a lot more respect for him if he just said so. Id believe it too, itd really explain why Brian says hes his best collaborator--because he challenged Brian and forced him to create better music than if he were left to his own devices.

Could you elaborate a bit on the possibility of Van Dyke being the possible mastermind behind the Smile arrangements? I have never heard him contributing more than the lyrics on the project, much less potentially being the mastermind behind the arrangements.  Huh

I was just responding to someone else's theory that maybe he feels gyped that no one credits the whole of his contribution to SMiLE. I don't think he's the mastermind behind the arrangements per se, but it was his idea to include cellos in GV.Supposedly one other point of contention between the two was his feelings that Brian wasn't going far enough. That his arrangements should be more complex.  And Brian thought VDP was asking for too much. I don't have a source for this tho. Anyway, it stands to reason VDP would shoot off ideas about this kind of thing to Brian. Unlike Asher, he was a seasoned, trained musician. And he was willing to be just as out there as Brian wanted to go.

Considering one of them is a R&R Hall of Famer with numerous songs classified both as massive hits AND artistically significant, and the other is Van Dyke Parks, well...time has borne out which was 'right'.
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« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2015, 11:40:57 PM »

What is the Beach Boys secondmost acclaimed album again? Isn't it also Brian's firstmost acclaimed solo album? I forgot. Could have sworn he won his only two Grammys for it. Wasn't some guy named Parks heavily involved in its creation, direction, writing, and initial recording?
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« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2015, 11:44:10 PM »

Credit is everything in the music and movie business. I think Van Dyke Parks was in sort of a Wag The Dog situation with Brian and Smile. He was under credited for his some of his contributions and uncredited for others; orchestration for one.

If he has feelings about that, it is perfectly natural and understandable. I don't have a problem with him airing his opinions, observations and feelings on his social media site.

But then...just be an adult and honestly say so. I dont care if he and Brian are friends or what. But if you dont like him, either keep it to yourself or explain why. Dont just fling barbs whenever you get the chance, its not going to get you any respect. However, if he really was the mastermind behind a lot of the arrangements (and not just lyrics) for SMiLE, thats awesome and Id have a lot more respect for him if he just said so. Id believe it too, itd really explain why Brian says hes his best collaborator--because he challenged Brian and forced him to create better music than if he were left to his own devices.

Could you elaborate a bit on the possibility of Van Dyke being the possible mastermind behind the Smile arrangements? I have never heard him contributing more than the lyrics on the project, much less potentially being the mastermind behind the arrangements.  Huh

I was just responding to someone else's theory that maybe he feels gyped that no one credits the whole of his contribution to SMiLE. I don't think he's the mastermind behind the arrangements per se, but it was his idea to include cellos in GV.Supposedly one other point of contention between the two was his feelings that Brian wasn't going far enough. That his arrangements should be more complex.  And Brian thought VDP was asking for too much. I don't have a source for this tho. Anyway, it stands to reason VDP would shoot off ideas about this kind of thing to Brian. Unlike Asher, he was a seasoned, trained musician. And he was willing to be just as out there as Brian wanted to go.

Considering one of them is a R&R Hall of Famer with numerous songs classified both as massive hits AND artistically significant, and the other is Van Dyke Parks, well...time has borne out which was 'right'.

Perhaps. I do think the two of them together was a match made in heaven in any case. I liked a song or two on Song Cycle but overall it rubbed me the wrong way. Haven't listened to VDPs other stuff. Pet Sounds is amazing but I think SMiLE is still head and shoulders above it and VDP is to be credited for writing lyrics as layered as the instrumentation. And if it turns out some of *that* was his idea too...so much the better. He obviously pushed Brian to be better because he (Brian) never made anything half as great since, and Brian reigned in his pretentiousness and gave it a catchy sincerity to make it relatable. I'd say they were both right. Or neither was right.

I'm pretty sure I read about that disagreement here on the forum. An earlier thread discussing some article from LLVS
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 11:46:26 PM by Mujan, B@st@rd Son of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2015, 11:48:25 PM »

Supposedly one other point of contention between the two was his feelings that Brian wasn't going far enough. That his arrangements should be more complex. And Brian thought VDP was asking for too much.
According to Vosse in '69, VDP would suggest ideas which would then get shut down by Brian arbitrarily.

According to Brian sometime in '04, he didn't feel as though Smile was commercial because of the non-musical portions like Workshop which were mostly encouraged by Parks.

Van Dyke wanted the Beach Boys to release their Kid A. They didn't. The Beatles did instead, in the form of Sgt. Pepper. And we know how the rest ends.
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« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2015, 11:58:35 PM »

Supposedly one other point of contention between the two was his feelings that Brian wasn't going far enough. That his arrangements should be more complex. And Brian thought VDP was asking for too much.
According to Vosse in '69, VDP would suggest ideas which would then get shut down by Brian arbitrarily.

According to Brian sometime in '04, he didn't feel as though Smile was commercial because of the non-musical portions like Workshop which were mostly encouraged by Parks.

Van Dyke wanted the Beach Boys to release their Kid A. They didn't. The Beatles did instead, in the form of Sgt. Pepper. And we know how the rest ends.

That's what it was! The Vosse interview. Alrighty.

That's surprising that things like Workshop were VDPs idea. I honestly thought Brian was the one veering too far off course until Van had enough. Again, I don't have a specific source but I recall reading he was put off by the Psychedelic Sounds skits and Brian's behavior in general. I always had the impression that Brian would be recording random feels as he pleased while Van tried to get him to focus and eventually gave up.

Do you know if the Americana idea was VDP's ? I always suspected so. He saw the Boys themselves as modern Americana and he seems to be really into that subject in general. Again if that was his idea, he deserves a lot of credit for how great SMiLE is because those are the strongest tracks on the album, I think. They have a drive and energy that the moodier "life" tracks don't quite match. Plus I love the idea of challenging the British Invasion directly and reaffirming American culture while still openly acknowledging the horrors of our past.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2015, 12:16:02 AM »

What is the Beach Boys secondmost acclaimed album again? Isn't it also Brian's firstmost acclaimed solo album? I forgot. Could have sworn he won his only two Grammys for it. Wasn't some guy named Parks heavily involved in its creation, direction, writing, and initial recording?

One of those Grammy's was for Best Rock Instumental. No Parks involvement. Other was for Best Historical Album for the Smile Sessions boxed set, which technically doesn't count as Parks had no involvement with compiling the boxed set, but I'll grant you that one.

Now since we're using sarcasm to attempt to prove a point, answer me this....which of the two is constantly taking pot shots at people on Twitter or interviews (including yours truly)? Here's a hint...it's not Brian Wilson.  Which of the two seems to always take the high road and seemingly goes out of his way in order to avoid being too harsh towards someone? Here's a hint...his initials are BDW.
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« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2015, 12:29:56 AM »

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« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2015, 12:34:54 AM »

Brian never said VDP came up with Workshop, only that he encouraged him to put stuff like that on the album when Brian was having doubts. At least that's how I remember the quote. I remember Brian was speaking about the '60s sessions, but the tone suggests he was feeling it more from the BWPS sessions.

I've never seen VDP take a direct potshot at Brian. Indirect shots, maybe, but he's never outright said anything negative or bitter about the guy. The people around him? Absolutely.

---

VDP : "Manifest Destiny, Plymouth Rock, etc. were the last things on his mind when he asked me to take a free hand in the lyrics and the album’s thematic direction."

BDW : "We wanted to capture the mood of early Americana, Plymouth Rock and all that. Van Dyke had a lot of knowledge about America. I gave him hardly any direction. We wanted to get back to basics and try something simple. We wanted to capture something as basic as the mood of water and fire.
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« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2015, 01:38:36 AM »

Brian never said VDP came up with Workshop, only that he encouraged him to put stuff like that on the album when Brian was having doubts. At least that's how I remember the quote. I remember Brian was speaking about the '60s sessions, but the tone suggests he was feeling it more from the BWPS sessions.

I've never seen VDP take a direct potshot at Brian. Indirect shots, maybe, but he's never outright said anything negative or bitter about the guy. The people around him? Absolutely.

---

VDP : "Manifest Destiny, Plymouth Rock, etc. were the last things on his mind when he asked me to take a free hand in the lyrics and the album’s thematic direction."

BDW : "We wanted to capture the mood of early Americana, Plymouth Rock and all that. Van Dyke had a lot of knowledge about America. I gave him hardly any direction. We wanted to get back to basics and try something simple. We wanted to capture something as basic as the mood of water and fire.

I see. The interesting thing is I agree or disagree depending on whether he meant the 60s or 00s. The former I say put all that weird sh*t on there. Workshop, the Undersea Chant, the Veggie Fight...all of it. It would have been totally cutting edge, unexpected and psychedelic. It would have fit perfectly with the times and set the trend for what was to come in the Summer of Love. The latter? I say they screwed up big time by including as much material as they did. Who's idea was it to include scraps like Barnyard and Great Shape? It's too long, ruins the flow even for a live set and dilutes the message. I'd say some of the more secondary tracks like those and Holidays ought to have been cut.

Not surprising at all that the Americana theme was Van's idea. The direction of the "life" tracks is pure Brian tho. And they're fantastic, but I feel like that theme was explored already and better with Pet Sounds. It's really that dissection of America that sets SMiLE apart, and which adds new weight to the Life tracks. How wonderful could also be a metaphor for the raping of the Americas by the settlers for example. Or serving as exposition for Surfs Up which talks about how society is breaking down.

What stuns me is Brian saying they wanted to do something simple considering the insurmountable ambitions of the project. I guess the chords are relatively simple (from my extremely limited understanding) but the arrangement, lyrics and modular editing are anything but.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2015, 03:41:03 AM »

Brian never said VDP came up with Workshop, only that he encouraged him to put stuff like that on the album when Brian was having doubts. At least that's how I remember the quote. I remember Brian was speaking about the '60s sessions, but the tone suggests he was feeling it more from the BWPS sessions.

I've never seen VDP take a direct potshot at Brian. Indirect shots, maybe, but he's never outright said anything negative or bitter about the guy. The people around him? Absolutely.

---

VDP : "Manifest Destiny, Plymouth Rock, etc. were the last things on his mind when he asked me to take a free hand in the lyrics and the album’s thematic direction."

BDW : "We wanted to capture the mood of early Americana, Plymouth Rock and all that. Van Dyke had a lot of knowledge about America. I gave him hardly any direction. We wanted to get back to basics and try something simple. We wanted to capture something as basic as the mood of water and fire.

Yeah, but what else should have happened in order for Van to be pleased? Not much else IMO. They worked together, clashed in one way or another, collaboration's over, VDP is credited as lyricist.... What else? Apparently, like Mike, he wanted to work with Brian alone in a room for TLOS; but that cannot poison you for years.

If he claims to have made contributions other than lyrics, well that's new. He's made those "glorified scribe", "I got a Volvo out of the deal", "Brian gave me dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah.... and I gave him lyrics for that" quotes for years. He never claimed credit for the music before. And I don't think he's doing so now.
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« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2015, 04:10:29 AM »

If it wasn't for Brian Wilson, I wouldn't have the first clue who Van Dyke Barks was ...
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« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2015, 04:22:26 AM »

  Parks has become a miserable old man.
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« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2015, 05:41:39 AM »

The recent comments from Mr. Parks do not coincide with the "Southern Gentleman" persona he has cultivated over the years.  He had previously come across as a gracious and proud collaborator who expressed appreciation for his involvement in the ambitious project, and was always complementary of Brian. 


Conversely, I have not heard a peep from Tony Asher, a seemingly classy individual who doesn't feel the need to seek accolades and attention.

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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2015, 05:45:04 AM »

No one has seemingly noticed that Van Dyke posted four tweets on the 20th to celebrate famous people that celebrated their birthday that day. In every tweet he said something about the genius of the people (f.e. Chet Atkins and Eroll Flynn), but Brian's tweet was just a shred of I Get Around. Like he wanted to make a point that the other people were really geniuses and modest people and Brian wasn't.
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« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2015, 06:19:41 AM »

Alas Yorick, you have hit on the juxtaposition! While the “shred” is indeed humorous, and while in another context its inclusion could easily have been deemed innocuous and even fanciful, the positioning here is quaintly obvious and even puerile. It is surprising indeed that one glib as VDP would resort to such schoolboy antics.

And if I am correct – an old man often isn’t – it is improper etiquette to “sub-tweet” one who has a Twitter account. In this case, the posting is not linked to Brian Wilson, though he does indeed maintain such an account.

It seems that VDP is fit with the stuff to write in his rub – indeed through the recess, the chalk and numbers, a coy bump into the one, one, wonderful. “I knew him, Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.” And yet through the opera glass you see the pit and the pendulum drawn.
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« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2015, 07:21:10 AM »

If this tweet bothered Mr. Wilson half as much as some of us here, I think I'd actually be surprised.  Brian has people heaping praise upon his genius everywhere he turns.  Who knows, maybe when something a little irreverent comes from someone Brian actually knows, the guy steps back and has himself a laugh?

I don't know.  I guess I don't see the same malicious intend behind it that some others do.  To me, it came off simply as VDP having a little fun of noting Brian's birthday.

But maybe I'm reading things wrong.
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« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2015, 07:26:03 AM »

I'm never 100% sure how to take VDP.  A cube of salt helps.
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« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2015, 08:22:05 AM »

Even without Smile, VDP is a great artist. But what I really wanted to add, considering his tweets (I follow him, a true gent) is that he is also hurt by Love and Mercy not giving him credit for the cello on GV.
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« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2015, 08:47:25 AM »

This appears to be a follow up, but it doesn't make anything any clearer:

https://twitter.com/thevandykeparks/status/612320604876767232
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« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2015, 08:52:39 AM »

Even without Smile, VDP is a great artist. But what I really wanted to add, considering his tweets (I follow him, a true gent) is that he is also hurt by Love and Mercy not giving him credit for the cello on GV.

His latest "tweet" concerning Brian is anything but being a gent. As far as being hurt by love and mercy...did you read all the nonsense from Carol Kaye last week? Going off on a rant because she would not have been confused by or questioned two baselines. VDP and Ms. Kaye apparently have never seen a biopic and don't have the slightest idea about the way a movie is put together. Pohlad and company would not and did not contact and bring in every person that would have had something to do with Brian 20 or 50 years ago. The movie was not about Smile, VDP or Ms. Kaye. Maybe if VDP had been seated in the assistant directors chair and re-worked the script so that his character got equal screen time with Brian he would be telling us how great a movie it is.

I'm pretty sure neither of them have seen the movie and even if they have, they were both making snarky comments about it without having seen it. That's very childish, petty, and disrespectful to Brian.

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