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Author Topic: My take on Mike vs Brian  (Read 30182 times)
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« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2015, 02:54:39 PM »


I'm obviously missing a few contributions and appearances, however, during Dr. Landy's treatment, Brian was able to "walk that line" between being a Beach Boy and having a solo career. It was only after Landy was removed that Brian began to focus almost exclusively as a solo artist. I'm not saying why; you can come to your own conclusions. But, for some reason, Brian went from being a Beach Boy, albeit part-time, to NOT being one...

Carl Wilson's passing and the resultant changes in circumstances surrounding the group must be a large factor.

Ps thank goodness Brian and Mike didn't go with the "catch a wave" lyric for Isn't It Time.
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« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2015, 02:54:45 PM »

AGD - damn I love being a Beach Boys fan! Has anything changed in the last 30+ years? Weren't we having the same Mike/Brian squabbles back then (meaning US = fans, not you and I). Nothing ever changes.

Now imagine this happening on the C50 tour. Phone rings in Mike's room. "Mike, this is Brian. I have an idea for a song and there is a piano downstairs in the conference room. Wanna meet up?"

That is all that would have to happen. It used to happen, now it doesn't. It isn't age, it's Brian just saying been there, done that. Nothing against Mike except Brian finds it easier to work with someone who doesn't always want to work the words surfing/beach/honey into every song. Good Lord Mike, you wrote Warmth Of The Sun, Good vibrations, Big Sur and yes one of my personal faves, Goin' On. Write those type of lyrics and Brian would call in a heartbeat.

 
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« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2015, 03:08:47 PM »

Certainly, the “why didn’t they write on tour?” question works both ways; I haven’t heard any reports that Brian was knocking on Mike’s door specifically to write.  

But Brian has never complained that he's being denied access to Mike, or that he has a great unfulfilled desire to write with him. Only Mike has ever voiced these complaints; only Mike seemed to be unhappy with the situation.

In that case, one would expect Mike to take some action to remedy matters, especially given that Brian and he spent more time together in 2012 than they had for nearly 40 years. But it's easier for him to complain to the press and cast aspersions at Melinda.
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« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2015, 03:10:25 PM »

AGD - damn I love being a Beach Boys fan! Has anything changed in the last 30+ years? Weren't we having the same Mike/Brian squabbles back then (meaning US = fans, not you and I). Nothing ever changes.

Indeed, it was ever thus, the main difference being that back in they day - that is, pre-internet - our disagreements and debates were far more civilised. Trolls, f*ckwits and sh*tweasels were yet to evolve (or should that be devolve ?). It was a simpler, better time. Damn, but I miss it. The land of lost content. There were giants in those days, real fans. Now, we get mental midgets. It's enough to make the Pope cuss.
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« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2015, 03:14:07 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong but I think Scott Bennet has managed to get in the room alone with Brian to write.  Brian goes to the deli on his own.  I'm sure if he had any desire to write/visit Mike he would do so.  

And if Brian doesn't have that desire, he should quit telling Mike he does. IF that is true, I could see how it might be the source of some of Mike's suspicions about "those around Brian". Brian keeps saying he wants to do this with you but somehow it doesn't happen. Pure speculation.

When did Brian tell Mike he wanted to write with him, Cam? Your statement suggests he's still saying that, but I don't recall a single interview or public statement within the last nine years or so in which BW said he wanted to write new songs with Mike. Record with him, yes. Tour with him, yes. Otherwise, I'm stumped. Might you have a link?
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« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2015, 03:23:15 PM »

Brian goes to the deli on his own.  I'm sure if he had any desire to write/visit Mike he would do so.

Agreed. And if Mike lived closer than Nevada, I think things would still be the same way.

Is there a single collaborator in the entire history of the band, other than Mike, who consistently has made demands for a certain amount/type of participation, and put pressure in order to try and make a writing partnering a certain, specific way? To the point where during the 1960s when Brian was dealing with so much other emotional issues, that Brian had to additionally deal with the weight of a guilt trip, and felt the need to continually make promises to try and appease Mike and keep him off his back for the then-current project?

I think the answer is no.

Does any other collaborator, family or not, come close to that type of relationship? The only person who seemed to come close was Landy, who seemed to demand a level of participation, as well as use leverage to make sure he got his way come hell or high water. The comparison ends there, since obviously Landy used many unethical tactics, but my point is that it's a very rare thing for Brian to have to deal with, as far as I know.

In other words, Brian meeting up with just Mike (and nobody else present) would be Brian putting himself into a situation that is unlike most other songwriting situations he's used to being in. Yes, it worked for a number of years back in the 1960s, but guess what? People grow up and move on; relationships change. Is it any wonder that this is a situation which Brian may feel he'd like to avoid? Brian should not have a collaborator who is in any kind of political position (due to history, family, etc) to make demands.  I know Mike cowrote a lot of hits and feels this is "owed" to him; but Brian is the best songwriter of his generation (even without Mike), and Mike (despite being talented) is not... plus, Brian shouldn't have to deal with any "demands" type grief at this point, *especially* considering his history. Brian gets to have that privilege and Mike refuses to deal with that reality.

Do I know what the exact parameters of the Joe Thomas/ Brian Wilson songwriting team is like? No, I can't say I do. But I have a feeling that Joe, as well as virtually all other collaborators past and present, have no political power/leverage to make demands or to try and put pressure for things to be "their" way.  

The irony is that I'm sure (based on Mike's own previous comments) that Mike feels that Brian is being "manipulated" by his wife (an insulting insinuation), but it seems that Mike wants to be the one who gets to "manipulate" Brian. If Mike feels Brian is so susceptible to manipulation, why would Mike feel that Mike's own personality wouldn't also be able to (however inadvertently) "manipulate" Brian? Or is it okay when he does it, but not ok when everyone else supposedly does it?

Does Mike feel he has some special magic, ethical, soothing touch when it comes to interacting with Brian which makes Mike's own actions NOT quantifiable as manipulation, but that everyone elses' actions ARE manipulation? How does that work? Seriously. Oh I know: Mike is family, so he gets to feel absolved from ever being part of a manipulative contingent, even though he appears to also the ONLY guy besides Landy to ever make songwriting demands of the type he does. Hypocrisy seems to fuel his logic. Does anyone "get" it? I certainly don't. I feel sorry for Mike, but I don't get where he's coming from; there's ZERO self-awareness.

Ultimately, Brian just needs to be the guy who gets to decide who he works with (and the parameters of that relationship), and Brian gets to decide how much influence he absorbs from his wife's suggestions (just like Mike and his own wife's suggestions which are surely made regularly). It's not 1965 anymore, but somebody in the group forgot to grow up and realize that things change.

Well said!  Grin
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« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2015, 03:24:26 PM »

I'm pretty sure that Melinda's liberation of Brian from Landy was just a case of hopping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Judging by the quality of Brian's output over the past 20 years, I would disagree.
*Nothing* can compare to the Landy years ( thank God)
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« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2015, 03:29:16 PM »

BW was lucky to survive that! Sad
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« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2015, 03:29:46 PM »

I'm pretty sure that Melinda's liberation of Brian from Landy was just a case of hopping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Judging by the quality of Brian's output over the past 20 years, I would disagree.
*Nothing* can compare to the Landy years ( thank God)

Yes, and Brian looks happier.  His smile is natural and not forced like it was in the Landy years.  The talking out of the side of his mouth has also pretty much gone.  He is in a far better place now.  Grin
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« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2015, 03:32:22 PM »

I'm pretty sure that Melinda's liberation of Brian from Landy was just a case of hopping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I'm pretty sure that this is one of the most brainless observations in the entire history of this forum.

No... no that's unfair. I'm not pretty sure, or even probably sure: I'm certain.  Smiley

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« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2015, 03:34:22 PM »

Certainly, the “why didn’t they write on tour?” question works both ways; I haven’t heard any reports that Brian was knocking on Mike’s door specifically to write.  

But Brian has never complained that he's being denied access to Mike, or that he has a great unfulfilled desire to write with him. Only Mike has ever voiced these complaints; only Mike seemed to be unhappy with the situation.

In that case, one would expect Mike to take some action to remedy matters, especially given that Brian and he spent more time together in 2012 than they had for nearly 40 years. But it's easier for him to complain to the press and cast aspersions at Melinda.

Definitely. I wasn't trying to place any blame on Brian. I was just looking at the evidence at hand that indicates Brian doesn't seem to have a strong desire to write with Mike, and that may play into why Mike keeps talking about wanting to work with Brian without addressing Brian's feelings, because those feelings may not be something that makes Mike feel very good.

Mike hasn't talked much, especially lately, about Brian's position on whether he (Brian) wants to write with Mike.

To the degree it appears Mike didn't pursue a songwriting situation with Brian in 2012, a possible defense of his could actually be that Brian doesn't appear to want to do it, so he didn't pursue it. But in order to do that, he'd have to admit that Brian doesn't want to write with him.
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« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2015, 03:36:33 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong but I think Scott Bennet has managed to get in the room alone with Brian to write.  Brian goes to the deli on his own.  I'm sure if he had any desire to write/visit Mike he would do so.  

And if Brian doesn't have that desire, he should quit telling Mike he does. IF that is true, I could see how it might be the source of some of Mike's suspicions about "those around Brian". Brian keeps saying he wants to do this with you but somehow it doesn't happen. Pure speculation.

When did Brian tell Mike he wanted to write with him, Cam? Your statement suggests he's still saying that, but I don't recall a single interview or public statement within the last nine years or so in which BW said he wanted to write new songs with Mike. Record with him, yes. Tour with him, yes. Otherwise, I'm stumped. Might you have a link?

Not to mention, Brian probably doesn't want to deeply hurt Mike's feelings by outright saying that he doesn't desire to write with him.  That's a tough, heartbreaking thing to say, and Brian isn't good at that kind of stuff.

If Brian has been wishy-washy about not having outright said so (if he indeed feels that way), well then yes, that's on him (Brian) for not being fully honest and forthcoming. I doubt Brian felt in 2012 that he never wanted to write anything with Mike ever again. I just think Brian wants to not feel pressure about how much control Mike gets over the process, the lyrics, etc. That's why there's someone else there playing interference.

Brian probably just wants the process to be fun (like any songwriter would), and for the participants to not bring awkwardness to the table. Who wants to write in an awkward situation where a fellow bandmate (who's felt slighted for decades for both completely legit, as well as blown-out-of-proportions reasons) is perhaps putting on a half-smile because he's not getting his full way? Brian can sense that stuff, and it's gonna hinder the process.  And truthfully, Brian has people around him for better or for worse (usually for better) attempting to help him out a bit advice-wise in the quality control department.

Didn't someone say awhile back that it was a particular BW bandmate's job to make sure Brian no longer recycles the Shortenin' Bread riff into new material? I don't think Brian was sitting around getting butt-hurt and offended by a bandmate's polite comments and suggestions, but if someone from BW's band (an outsider! the horror!) dared question anything Mike brought to the table, I bet Mike would get relatively more hurt about it, and then again say that Brian is being "controlled" and that the controllers are screwing up the creative process. Brian has been to hell and back, and he has a carefully crafted safety net around him to help him out. That net took years to create a situation that Brian was comfortable in, and it needs to be respected, as Brian is a fragile guy; I do not think Mike respected that safety net whatsoever (if it meant compromising Mike's all-so-important "needs"), and that Mike probably largely viewed it as a threat. It's sad.

IMO, Brian's needs run deeper, and are far more important to his own well-being than Mike's needs are to Mike's own. Emotionally super-sensitive musical geniuses with a history of mental illness get to have priority. Sorry, but it's true. Alan seems to respect that. Mike not so much, and it's always everyone else's fault but his own.
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« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2015, 03:37:01 PM »

Seems like an agenda is being pushed to distract from the NPP tour and L&M movie. Next week's talking points will be how the NPP tour's setlist is not as good as the M&B UK shows.

I'll be able to do a firsthand comparison on setlist after next Tuesday Cool

I'm hoping to post Brian's opening night setlist by late Thursday, or at least Friday. Smiley

I'm going to have to scribble the whole thing down because I don't have earlier shows to work from. Normally (C50, etc.), I just write the most recent setlist down and make changes as they come.

Yes, I'm a nerd....
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« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2015, 03:49:44 PM »

I can't wait to see it! Cool
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« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2015, 03:58:56 PM »

Didn't someone say awhile back that it was a particular BW bandmate's job to make sure Brian no longer recycles the Shortenin' Bread riff into new material?

Reminds me of something Andy Paley said back in the days of the first solo album sessions, along the lines of "I've been brought in to keep Brian honest, to stop him reworking old riffs". That would be the same Andy Paley, then, who co-authored with BW "Desert Drive", an example of multiple copyright infringements so blatant that even Alan would have to applaud.  Grin
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« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2015, 03:59:56 PM »

I'm hoping to post Brian's opening night setlist by late Thursday, or at least Friday. Smiley

I'm going to have to scribble the whole thing down because I don't have earlier shows to work from. Normally (C50, etc.), I just write the most recent setlist down and make changes as they come.

Yes, I'm a nerd....

This forum needs more nerds. Nerds more needs. Whatever.  Grin
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« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2015, 04:03:09 PM »

Didn't someone say awhile back that it was a particular BW bandmate's job to make sure Brian no longer recycles the Shortenin' Bread riff into new material?

Reminds me of something Andy Paley said back in the days of the first solo album sessions, along the lines of "I've been brought in to keep Brian honest, to stop him reworking old riffs". That would be the same Andy Paley, then, who co-authored with BW "Desert Drive", an example of multiple copyright infringements so blatant that even Alan would have to applaud.  Grin

True, but perhaps without the riff-recycling police, it would be even worse!
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« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2015, 04:05:52 PM »

I ain't fallin' for THIS again.  The weekly Mike Bar B Q.

Brian has better hair.  And he writes better music.

Bye.
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« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2015, 04:08:17 PM »

My 2 cents. From the RS story in 2012

"Mike's an entertainer," says Foskett. "Brian is an artist. There's room for both, but it's a fundamental difference, and pretty hard to reconcile.".....

and

One afternoon in February, the Beach Boys crowd into the control room at Ocean Way to listen to the suite. John Stamos, the actor (a serious Beach Boys fan who often performs with Mike Love's band), stands in the back, twirling his sunglasses. When the music ends, the room falls silent. Finally, Stamos breaks the ice. "Magical," he says. Love, sitting next to me on a leather couch, has another reaction, which he demonstrates by putting his fingers into the shape of a gun, placing it under his chin and shooting himself in the head. "It's brilliant, beautiful, but I didn't write it, so it doesn't have that silver cloud on the cumulus nimbus," he says. "It's more cumulus than I probably would do."


http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-beach-boys-last-wave-20120621?page=3


Maybe he was there and saw Mike do it but after reading this in June of that year, is there any reason Brian would want to write with Mike? Probably the most insensitive action imaginable.
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« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2015, 04:08:56 PM »

Add some wins the thread! LOL
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« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2015, 04:26:35 PM »

The following words by Jon Stebbins have always rung truer to me than anything else as to why things are the way they are/why the C50 ended on a sour note/why Brian and Mike are working independently of one another now etc:

"“Since Carl died in the late ’90s, Mike has basically been the man.  He runs the operations, and he runs the show and I think for the 50th anniversary tour, he had to step back.  Night after night after night after night, Mike is making less money getting reminded that Brian is more popular than him and he has to answer to people instead of calling all the shots himself.”
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« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2015, 04:37:21 PM »

I'm pretty sure that Melinda's liberation of Brian from Landy was just a case of hopping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I'm pretty sure that this is one of the most brainless observations in the entire history of this forum.

No... no that's unfair. I'm not pretty sure, or even probably sure: I'm certain.  Smiley



Is it really though?
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« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2015, 04:44:51 PM »

I'm pretty sure that Melinda's liberation of Brian from Landy was just a case of hopping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I'm pretty sure that this is one of the most brainless observations in the entire history of this forum.

No... no that's unfair. I'm not pretty sure, or even probably sure: I'm certain.  Smiley



Is it really though?

Yes it REALLY is.
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« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2015, 04:48:13 PM »

I've always interpreted Mike's wish to write with Brian "in a room" to be in a studio setting. They collaborated together in the early/mid-1960's in various studios, in the late 1960's in Brian's home studio, in 1972 in Holland, in 1974 at Caribou, in the mid-1970's at Brother Studio, in 1977 at M.I.U., and on and on.

It didn't/doesn't seem practical OR REALISTIC for Mike and Brian to write new material while on the road during C50.  There was so much going on - interviews, photo sessions, rehearsals, TV appearances, travel, and other distractions that crop up with such a major tour. Also, there were family members present for some of the tour and you couldn't really blame anyone for wanting to take it in and enjoy as much of the festivities as possible. And, not to single out Brian, but I used to wonder how he even held up physically for the duration of the tour. We know he had some back issues, but just the shock his system must've been going through to undertake such a long tour after NOT touring like that for decades. It's hard for me to imagine that writing new songs with Mike or anyone would've been feasible or any kind of a priority.

The following has absolutely nothing to do with condoning, agreeing with, or supporting anything that Dr. Landy did to and with Brian. But...while under the care of Eugene Landy, Brian Wilson:

- produced 15 Big Ones
- composed and produced The Beach Boys Love You
- performed at a few concerts in 1983
- performed at The D.C. Beach Party in 1984
- contributed to The Beach Boys 1985 album and accompanying videos
- performed with the group at Live Aid in 1985
- appeared with the group on various TV shows during 1985-86
- appeared on the "Rock & Roll To The Rescue" and "California Dreamin" recordings and videos
- contributed to the "Wipe Out" recording and video
- contributed to the Still Cruisin' album
- appeared with the group on Full House
- appeared with the group on the 1989 syndicated TV series, Endless Summer

I'm obviously missing a few contributions and appearances, however, during Dr. Landy's treatment, Brian was able to "walk that line" between being a Beach Boy and having a solo career. It was only after Landy was removed that Brian began to focus almost exclusively as a solo artist. I'm not saying why; you can come to your own conclusions. But, for some reason, Brian went from being a Beach Boy, albeit part-time, to NOT being one...
To put it bluntly
Brian was not under the "care" of Landy.
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« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2015, 04:50:11 PM »

My 2 cents. From the RS story in 2012

"Mike's an entertainer," says Foskett. "Brian is an artist. There's room for both, but it's a fundamental difference, and pretty hard to reconcile.".....

and

One afternoon in February, the Beach Boys crowd into the control room at Ocean Way to listen to the suite. John Stamos, the actor (a serious Beach Boys fan who often performs with Mike Love's band), stands in the back, twirling his sunglasses. When the music ends, the room falls silent. Finally, Stamos breaks the ice. "Magical," he says. Love, sitting next to me on a leather couch, has another reaction, which he demonstrates by putting his fingers into the shape of a gun, placing it under his chin and shooting himself in the head. "It's brilliant, beautiful, but I didn't write it, so it doesn't have that silver cloud on the cumulus nimbus," he says. "It's more cumulus than I probably would do."


http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-beach-boys-last-wave-20120621?page=3


Maybe he was there and saw Mike do it but after reading this in June of that year, is there any reason Brian would want to write with Mike? Probably the most insensitive action imaginable.

I don't know if Jason Fine, the guy who wrote that article for Rolling Stone, is still the guy working on Brian's book (Brian recently said they had to switch guys, so I'm not sure if Fine is the before or after in that scenario), but as an aside, that was one of the best (and one of few) excellent pieces written on the reunion, and published as it happened no less. For a guy who went on to work on the "Brian Book", he seemed to do a good job of talking to Mike as well and getting Mike at ease.

It's funny, while I'm well aware of the precarious nature of any BB project and know they can blow anything at any time, I remember thinking the cover blurb for that issue ("The FRAGILE Beach Boys Reunion") and one of the lines in the story (referring to it being one of the most unlikely reunions ever mounted) seemed a bit hyperbolic. The end of the C50 tour proved that those words were far from hyperbolic.

Mike's reaction to Brian's suite is more symbolic to me than it is inflammatory. I've run into tons of people like this. They kind of appear to be joking, but they come across like a total d**k. I do appreciate that Mike followed up and explained his reaction, and it certainly underlines the differing opinions and philosophies about music. It's also telling that Mike doesn't just seem to be thrown by the suite because of its somber nature, but also specifically cites that *he* didn't write it. Who would have thought that John Stamos likes a Brian Wilson-penned album-ending suite on a Beach Boys album more than Mike Love.
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