My take on Mike vs Brian

[SMiLE Brian]

SJS, nevermind that scene where Landy bullies BW to make "let's go to heaven in my car" in L&M 

[KDS]

Before this thread devolves, I think there's some truth to the OP's statement.

Regarding Mike and Brian writing music, there are three songs on TWGMTR that credit Mike and Brian (among others) - Isn't It Time, Spring Vacation, and Beaches in Mind.  Does anybody know the extent of Brian and Mike's contributions to these songs?  Were they Brian / Joe Thomas songs that Mike tweaked a lyric to, thus earning a credit?  Maybe Brian and Joe instrumental tracks that Mike separately wrote lyrics for?  Maybe Mike ideas that Brian arranged at a later date?  

Mike supplied the lyric to "Spring Vacation" at Brian's request: the other two... not a clue. Anyone ?

Brian had also already written some of the "Spring Vacation" chorus lyrics -- IIRC, the "hallelujah" bit, and possibly the "easy money" line, too.

As for "Isn't It Time," I believe that was one of the few (only?) TWGMTR songs written at the session.  Millas and Peterik brought in the percussion / uke riff, and Brian, Mike and Joe built the rest of the song around it on the spot. I think this is one of the reasons Mike pushed the song so much, and supported the alternate version -- it was a song on the album where he had real buy-in from the beginning.

Jim Peterik put out a book recently. He devotes a few pages at the end to his association with Brian and the Beach Boys.  I believe that he basically says in that book that "Isn't It Time" originated with Millas, and then Peterik worked on it with him. Peterik doesn't it say it outright, but the strong implication is that a completed song of some kind was submitted to Brian and Mike, and then those two gave their opinions on the then-existing lyrics. Peterik says that the original lyric "isn't it time to catch another wave" was vetoed by Brian and Mike and was changed. I may not be relating this with 100% accuracy; check out Peterik's book for the exact wording.

For what it's worth, in the book (which I don't own, but quickly leafed through when I stumbled on it at a book sale) Peterik also offers the opinion that the remaining group members didn't want to do the reunion, and that Joe Thomas had to talk them all into it. Peterik says that this is because the Beach Boys "don't like each other," or something to that effect.

If you go on YouTube and look at the footage from the Wembley Show at the end of the C50 Tour, Brian is all smiles.  Maybe he was relieved that it was over. 

I think a book can be written on the whole 2012 BB Saga. 

[Shady]

Hurry, hurry, hurry folks step right up to the Beach Boy circus, The best show in town.

[HeyJude]

Again, though, Brian and Mike were on the road for dozens of dates in 2012. Brian was without Melinda or managers for large periods of time. If Mike ever wanted to work with Brian, or fool around with a song, all he had to do was go to Brian's dressing room and knock.

That didn't happen.

And I think this detail, mentioned by several folks now, is particularly damning in terms of the position that Mike wants to write with Brian alone.

It speaks, potentially, to a bunch of different possibilities. How much did/does Mike really want or need to write with Brian? How much does Brian want to write with Mike?

Given the tone and context of interviews Mike has given post-2012, my total guess is that if he had knocked on Brian’s door during the tour and tried time after time to write and Brian turned him down, he would mention that in some interviews. But who knows? I think, and again, just guessing, that much like many relationships in life, sometimes people don’t want to admit that someone is rejecting them in any form. Some of what may be going on is that Brian just doesn’t really want to write songs with Mike (though he has demonstrated he does want to perform and record with him), and Mike doesn’t want to admit that Brian, and not whatever “people around him”, doesn’t particularly want to write with Mike. Certainly, the “why didn’t they write on tour?” question works both ways; I haven’t heard any reports that Brian was knocking on Mike’s door specifically to write.  

[SMiLE Brian]

On the another point about the handlers. There are no people like that in BW's organization, they are just Mike's boogeymen for why BW wants nothing to do with him.

[Andrew G. Doe]

It really is sad but Mike and Brian have a relationship that's beyond repair.

Beg to differ, but according to what Paul Dano related late last year, Brian loves Mike, says he's a good man. I'd say their personal relationship - when they get a chance to exercise it - is more than amicable. The problem is between the camps, not the individuals. Probably.

[HeyJude]

I think, like many rich/famous/successful groups, there is also an element of not being confrontational in person. That is, they may get along reasonably well when talking about the past or shooting the s**t, but still have “issues”, but don’t really voice them face-to-face. Then manager and agents and partners get an ear full later on and sometimes end up having to be the bad guy.

There is usually an element of “camps” complicating a personal relationship. But I think, sometimes, the degree to which Brian and Mike get along and enjoy each other’s company may be slightly overstated. I don’t tend to think it’s *all* the “camps.” (And I’m not saying much of anyone here has made such a sweeping generalization). 

It was just an anecdote, but someone posted recently they had been to the Capitol tower and talked to someone who was there when the TWGMTR album was being recorded, and they seemed to get the sense that the guys all hate each other and “everything is an argument.” I weigh such anecdotes accordingly, but it’s something worth thinking about.

[CenturyDeprived]

Brian goes to the deli on his own.  I'm sure if he had any desire to write/visit Mike he would do so.

Agreed. And if Mike lived closer than Nevada, I think things would still be the same way.

Is there a single collaborator in the entire history of the band, other than Mike, who consistently has made demands for a certain amount/type of participation, and put pressure in order to try and make a writing partnering a certain, specific way? To the point where during the 1960s when Brian was dealing with so much other emotional issues, that Brian had to additionally deal with the weight of a guilt trip, and felt the need to continually make promises to try and appease Mike and keep him off his back for the then-current project?

I think the answer is no.

Does any other collaborator, family or not, come close to that type of relationship? The only person who seemed to come close was Landy, who seemed to demand a level of participation, as well as use leverage to make sure he got his way come hell or high water. The comparison ends there, since obviously Landy used many unethical tactics, but my point is that it's a very rare thing for Brian to have to deal with, as far as I know.

In other words, Brian meeting up with just Mike (and nobody else present) would be Brian putting himself into a situation that is unlike most other songwriting situations he's used to being in. Yes, it worked for a number of years back in the 1960s, but guess what? People grow up and move on; relationships change. Is it any wonder that this is a situation which Brian may feel he'd like to avoid? Brian should not have a collaborator who is in any kind of political position (due to history, family, etc) to make demands.  I know Mike cowrote a lot of hits and feels this is "owed" to him; but Brian is the best songwriter of his generation (even without Mike), and Mike (despite being talented) is not... plus, Brian shouldn't have to deal with any "demands" type grief at this point, *especially* considering his history. Brian gets to have that privilege and Mike refuses to deal with that reality.

Do I know what the exact parameters of the Joe Thomas/ Brian Wilson songwriting team is like? No, I can't say I do. But I have a feeling that Joe, as well as virtually all other collaborators past and present, have no political power/leverage to make demands or to try and put pressure for things to be "their" way.  

The irony is that I'm sure (based on Mike's own previous comments) that Mike feels that Brian is being "manipulated" by his wife (an insulting insinuation), but it seems that Mike wants to be the one who gets to "manipulate" Brian. If Mike feels Brian is so susceptible to manipulation, why would Mike feel that Mike's own personality wouldn't also be able to (however inadvertently) "manipulate" Brian? Or is it okay when he does it, but not ok when everyone else supposedly does it?

Does Mike feel he has some special magic, ethical, soothing touch when it comes to interacting with Brian which makes Mike's own actions NOT quantifiable as manipulation, but that everyone elses' actions ARE manipulation? How does that work? Seriously. Oh I know: Mike is family, so he gets to feel absolved from ever being part of a manipulative contingent, even though he appears to also the ONLY guy besides Landy to ever make songwriting demands of the type he does. Hypocrisy seems to fuel his logic. Does anyone "get" it? I certainly don't. I feel sorry for Mike, but I don't get where he's coming from; there's ZERO self-awareness.

Ultimately, Brian just needs to be the guy who gets to decide who he works with (and the parameters of that relationship), and Brian gets to decide how much influence he absorbs from his wife's suggestions (just like Mike and his own wife's suggestions which are surely made regularly). It's not 1965 anymore, but somebody in the group forgot to grow up and realize that things change.

[SMiLE Brian]

The room is Mike's code word for total control as it always has been.

[clack]

Let me preface this by saying that the following remarks are the rankest speculation:

I think Mike is nostalgic for the Wilson/Love mid-60s heyday, and believes that if he and Brian can just get alone somewhere around a piano, that they can regain that old magic. Mike is probably fooling himself here, that magic is forever gone along with his hair, but you can't fault a guy for dreaming, can you? Brian, on the other hand, has moved on.

[drbeachboy]

Let me preface this by saying that the following remarks are the rankest speculation:

I think Mike is nostalgic for the Wilson/Love mid-60s heyday, and believes that if he and Brian can just get alone somewhere around a piano, that they can regain that old magic. Mike is probably fooling himself here, that magic is forever gone along with his hair, but you can't fault a guy for dreaming, can you? Brian, on the other hand, has moved on.

I think that you are right on the money with that observation.

[CenturyDeprived]

Let me preface this by saying that the following remarks are the rankest speculation:

I think Mike is nostalgic for the Wilson/Love mid-60s heyday, and believes that if he and Brian can just get alone somewhere around a piano, that they can regain that old magic. Mike is probably fooling himself here, that magic is forever gone along with his hair, but you can't fault a guy for dreaming, can you? Brian, on the other hand, has moved on.

I think that you are right on the money with that observation.

I can't fault a guy for dreaming; I CAN fault a guy for dreaming and then additionally demanding, publicly complaining, making accusations, ruining a reunion, etc as a result of his "dreams" not coming true anymore due to a little thing called reality.

Ultimatums suck.

[The Shift]

I think Mike is nostalgic for the Wilson/Love mid-60s heyday, and believes that if he and Brian can just get alone somewhere around a piano, that they can regain that old magic.

Brian, on the other hand, has moved on.

I suspect there's probably a degree of truth in the above…

… according to what Paul Dano related late last year, Brian loves Mike, says he's a good man. I'd say their personal relationship - when they get a chance to exercise it - is more than amicable. The problem is between the camps, not the individuals. Probably.

… and I think this is probably true too.

I reckon – and I have no evidence to support this whatsoever – but I reckon Mike and Brian can still share a beer and laugh at old times – and the antics of boards like this – when (if?) they get together socially. Working/writing together might be a different matter but, y'know, that's their business, not mine. I'll speculate but the days when I thought I was entitled to an opinion are gone.

sh*t, I'm 51 and long for my 24-y-o hey day but no matter how many pushbikes I buy, how much I spend on my hifi and how many Jethro Tull CDs I listen to, it ain't gonna happen.  Doesn't stop me fantasising though.  Don't all guys long to be back in their prime? It's no crime. Kudos to Brian if he has moved on; kudos to Mike for continuing to play great music like he's still in 20s – no-one gets hurt, we all benefit (when we allow ourselves, that is).

[drbeachboy]

Let me preface this by saying that the following remarks are the rankest speculation:

I think Mike is nostalgic for the Wilson/Love mid-60s heyday, and believes that if he and Brian can just get alone somewhere around a piano, that they can regain that old magic. Mike is probably fooling himself here, that magic is forever gone along with his hair, but you can't fault a guy for dreaming, can you? Brian, on the other hand, has moved on.

I think that you are right on the money with that observation.

I can't fault a guy for dreaming; I CAN fault a guy for dreaming and then additionally demanding, publicly complaining, making accusations, ruining a reunion, etc as a result of his "dreams" not coming true anymore due to a little thing called reality.

Nothing like calling a person out in public to put the pressure on. He didn't ruin the reunion for me. I went to two shows. Everyone was at the shows that I attended. Reality is a bitch and everyone has to deal with it. I don't see Brian any worse for the wear from Mike cajoling him to write new songs. In the end Brian did what he always does in the studio; run the show and do his own thing.

[CenturyDeprived]

Let me preface this by saying that the following remarks are the rankest speculation:

I think Mike is nostalgic for the Wilson/Love mid-60s heyday, and believes that if he and Brian can just get alone somewhere around a piano, that they can regain that old magic. Mike is probably fooling himself here, that magic is forever gone along with his hair, but you can't fault a guy for dreaming, can you? Brian, on the other hand, has moved on.

I think that you are right on the money with that observation.

I can't fault a guy for dreaming; I CAN fault a guy for dreaming and then additionally demanding, publicly complaining, making accusations, ruining a reunion, etc as a result of his "dreams" not coming true anymore due to a little thing called reality.

Nothing like calling a person out in public to put the pressure on. He didn't ruin the reunion for me. I went to two shows. Everyone was at the shows that I attended. Reality is a bitch and everyone has to deal with it. I don't see Brian any worse for the wear from Mike cajoling him to write new songs. In the end Brian did what he always does in the studio; run the show and do his own thing.

The only "worse for the wear" fallout created by Mike that I saw inflicted on Brian was when Brian wrote in the LA Times article about how hurt and bummed out he was about Mike ending the reunion (which Mike later justified in part by stating his "room" deprivation claims were valid reasons for doing what he did, "set end date" aside - you know if Mike got the room he wanted, the set end date would have been a non-issue).

I know everyone has feelings, and I can't deny Mike's right to feel his own feelings anymore than I can deny anyone else's, but as you said: reality is a bitch, and I think Mike was/is not dealing with reality. It's easier to go on endless tours and pretend that the problem and "room" issue could never have even an iota to do with himself. He IMO is in denial about that, and it is very sad. Maybe the reason why the room didn't happen is not ALL due to Mike... maybe there were other factors at play... but I think it's foolish to think it's completely in no way shape or form due to Mike, his demanding personality, and his track record of shaky lyrics (with occasional exceptions) and endless 1960s song lyric regurgitated references for decades. That's got to, at the very least, be a *part* of it.

The M&B show is Mike's less physically toxic version of Denny's jug of vodka and orange juice; a bottomless distraction that help avoids dealing with the reality in which the songwriting partnership (which he tremendously values and misses) has simply changed, for reasons that surely are valid to Brian, but that Mike must deny are real.

As I've said before, I bet Mike would have gotten some "room" time bit by bit if he'd stuck it out and NOT made demands and public complaints. He lost out. We lost out too.

[job]

I'm pretty sure that Melinda's liberation of Brian from Landy was just a case of hopping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

[SMiLE Brian]

Correct, touring M&B is Mike's addiction to escape the reality of the broken relationships of the real BBs.

[job]

I think it's just a lame excuse on Mike's part. he's not really interested in making new music. he's finally got everything exactly the way he wants it: he is the front and center star of the show, he's playing 95% hits and songs that are 25-50 years old, and he is essentially the head of the Beach Boys organization... he controls the name, the dates, and the deals.


I could be wrong. but if Mike really does just want time to get alone with his cousin, he is fooling himself if he thinks Melinda or anyone but Brian is keeping it from happening. Brian knows exactly what he wants at this stage in the game.

Such certainty !  Such insight !!! Such insider knowledge !!!!!  No wonder it was so easy for you to get your name up on the video screen - you know who has the negatives, and where the bodies are buried. I bend my knee and bow my head in tribute, I am as nothing to your Olympian omniscience. All hail bossaroo !!  

Probably...

settle down big guy, I never claimed to be certain of anything hence the use of phrases like "I think" and "I could be wrong". I do feel fairly certain however that Brian has no desire to be alone in a room with Mike Love, because... does ANYBODY??

and the only reason I got my name on the video screen is because Mike liked my photoshop of him shooting lightning bolts out of his fingers, apparently missing the joke altogether.

Probably...

Meh...don't sweat it.  Doe-boy can't stand it when he's not the only one spouting faux insider knowledge on the board.

[Sheriff John Stone]

The following has absolutely nothing to do with condoning, agreeing with, or supporting anything that Dr. Landy did to and with Brian. But...while under the care of Eugene Landy, Brian Wilson:

- produced 15 Big Ones
- composed and produced The Beach Boys Love You
- performed at a few concerts in 1983
- performed at The D.C. Beach Party in 1984
- contributed to The Beach Boys 1985 album and accompanying videos
- performed with the group at Live Aid in 1985
- appeared with the group on various TV shows during 1985-86
- appeared on the "Rock & Roll To The Rescue" and "California Dreamin" recordings and videos
- contributed to the "Wipe Out" recording and video
- contributed to the Still Cruisin' album
- appeared with the group on Full House
- appeared with the group on the 1989 syndicated TV series, Endless Summer

I'm obviously missing a few contributions and appearances...

Um... like two solo albums, one released one (thankfully) not ? 

I was just highlighting things that Brian did WITH The Beach Boys, my point being that was able to do solo things AND contribute, albeit part-time, to The Beach Boys.

[CenturyDeprived]

The following has absolutely nothing to do with condoning, agreeing with, or supporting anything that Dr. Landy did to and with Brian. But...while under the care of Eugene Landy, Brian Wilson:

- produced 15 Big Ones
- composed and produced The Beach Boys Love You
- performed at a few concerts in 1983
- performed at The D.C. Beach Party in 1984
- contributed to The Beach Boys 1985 album and accompanying videos
- performed with the group at Live Aid in 1985
- appeared with the group on various TV shows during 1985-86
- appeared on the "Rock & Roll To The Rescue" and "California Dreamin" recordings and videos
- contributed to the "Wipe Out" recording and video
- contributed to the Still Cruisin' album
- appeared with the group on Full House
- appeared with the group on the 1989 syndicated TV series, Endless Summer

I'm obviously missing a few contributions and appearances...

Um... like two solo albums, one released one (thankfully) not ? 

I was just highlighting things that Brian did WITH The Beach Boys, my point being that was able to do solo things AND contribute, albeit part-time, to The Beach Boys.

I really think that a scenario where Brian was doing both a solo thing as well as some BB involvement could have happened if C50 hadn't imploded. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility.

[SMiLE Brian]

Seems like an agenda is being pushed to distract from the NPP tour and L&M movie. Next week's talking points will be how the NPP tour's setlist is not as good as the M&B UK shows.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Seems like an agenda is being pushed to distract from the NPP tour and L&M movie. Next week's talking points will be how the NPP tour's setlist is not as good as the M&B UK shows.

I'll be able to do a firsthand comparison on setlist after next Tuesday

[Pretty Funky]

Correct, touring M&B is Mike's addiction to escape the reality of the broken relationships of the real BBs.

You think so? More an addiction to touring IMO but not that its a bad thing. Many artists who don't need the money continue touring.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Be fascinated to hear your report, Billy.

[Cam Mott]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think Scott Bennet has managed to get in the room alone with Brian to write.  Brian goes to the deli on his own.  I'm sure if he had any desire to write/visit Mike he would do so.  

And if Brian doesn't have that desire, he should quit telling Mike he does. IF that is true, I could see how it might be the source of some of Mike's suspicions about "those around Brian". Brian keeps saying he wants to do this with you but somehow it doesn't happen. Pure speculation.