So Tough/Holland=Barely any Brian on them and yet..fave albums of many here.

[Autotune]

I would have loved for the Beach Boys to continue what they did on So Tough and Holland; there was infinitely more promise in this direction than falling back on "Brian is a genius; come on Brian, write and produce us some hits". Sometimes I wish Carl and Dennis had just left in '77, and left Mike and Al to rot in oldies hell.

Filling up the set with oldies was initially Guercio + Dennis' idea.

I like TWGMTR more than So Tough and more than Holland.

[Autotune]

One of the biggest mysteries for me in the group's history, not just from the CATP/Holland period, but from 20/20 through Holland, was the scarcity of Brian Wilson lead vocals. After Friends in 1968, it's almost like Brian disappeared as a lead vocalist. I'm not referring to a line here or a word there, but a full blown solo lead vocal. On the five studio albums from 1969-1973, he almost appeared to be hiding vocally, even on his own songs. I've never heard or read why. It's not that his voice was shot...yet.

I think he hid until he could show the world a voice he related more to. Other than a baby-voiced line here or there, or his Pied Piper voice, he didn't show up vocally really.

[Sheriff John Stone]

One of the biggest mysteries for me in the group's history, not just from the CATP/Holland period, but from 20/20 through Holland, was the scarcity of Brian Wilson lead vocals. After Friends in 1968, it's almost like Brian disappeared as a lead vocalist. I'm not referring to a line here or a word there, but a full blown solo lead vocal. On the five studio albums from 1969-1973, he almost appeared to be hiding vocally, even on his own songs. I've never heard or read why. It's not that his voice was shot...yet.

I think he hid until he could show the world a voice he related more to. Other than a baby-voiced line here or there, or his Pied Piper voice, he didn't show up vocally really.

Yeah, and the ironic thing was, while Brian was "struggling" with his voice, Carl and Al were, not exactly trying to imitate him, but kind of emulating him. There's a lot of songs from that period (1969-73) where it's hard to distinguish who exactly is singing! That Daddy Dear/Susie Cincinnati tape from Holland is an example of this...

[Mike's Beard]

One of the biggest mysteries for me in the group's history, not just from the CATP/Holland period, but from 20/20 through Holland, was the scarcity of Brian Wilson lead vocals. After Friends in 1968, it's almost like Brian disappeared as a lead vocalist. I'm not referring to a line here or a word there, but a full blown solo lead vocal. On the five studio albums from 1969-1973, he almost appeared to be hiding vocally, even on his own songs. I've never heard or read why. It's not that his voice was shot...yet.

It's true, suddenly Carl was everywhere Brian used to be.

[Lonely Summer]

Am I the only person who thinks KTSA isn't actually that bad ?

KTSA is awesome, with the exception of Endless Harmony, which is propably the worst song the BB ever recorded plus When Girls Get Together which is irritating as hell. But especially the title track, Some of Your Love, Living With a Heartache, Sunshine and Goin' On are all standout tracks.

Word.

[Lee Marshall]

I have never colored my hair and those who claim otherwise are merely jealous of my good fortune in genetics, at least in this one area.

Now THAT...That right there...is just plain hilarious.   Sorry for your luck Hank.  Nice hair though.

[Emdeeh]

Am I the only person who thinks KTSA isn't actually that bad ?

Nope, you're not alone -- I'm a fan of KTSA too.

[Moon Dawg]

Am I the only person who thinks KTSA isn't actually that bad ?

KTSA is awesome, with the exception of Endless Harmony, which is propably the worst song the BB ever recorded plus When Girls Get Together which is irritating as hell. But especially the title track, Some of Your Love, Living With a Heartache, Sunshine and Goin' On are all standout tracks.

  The title track  and "Goin' On" are pretty good, "Heartache" is fair, but "Sunshine" and especially "Some of Your Love" make me cringe. I like "WGGT" as an oddity; it did not belong on KTSA though.

 Here's one thumbs up for "Make It Good"...an overwhelmingly evocative mood piece/tone poem.

 

[KDS]

I've always had very mixed feelings about these two albums. Brian is largely absent and it shows (you could throw the Surf's Up album in there too actually). His meager contributions are easily the best tracks on these albums for me. Of course, it's interesting to hear the other guys develop as songwriters, but as great as those songs are...they don't they hold a candle to what Brian delivered in the past, or what he would deliver a few years later on "The Beach Boys Love You". That's my opinion anyway.

I know these two albums are big favorites around here, but with next-to-no Brian involvement, they both fall kinda flat for me.



Agree? Disagree? Am I alone in the wilderness?
 

   

I think CATP is a decent album, but I love Holland. 

However, and I know I'm in the minority, other than Sail On Sailor, I don't care for Brian's contributions to Holland.  Funky Pretty is easily my least favorite track on the album.  I don't even consider the Mt. Vernon piece a part of the album, and find it pretty tough to sit through. 

I do think Funky Pretty points the way to the type of songs Brian would contribute to Love You.  But I'm on the side of the fence that doesn't much care for the Love You album. 

[Shady]

Am I the only person who thinks KTSA isn't actually that bad ?

Nope, you're not alone -- I'm a fan of KTSA too.

I love it, 85 too.

[Sam_BFC]

One of the biggest mysteries for me in the group's history, not just from the CATP/Holland period, but from 20/20 through Holland, was the scarcity of Brian Wilson lead vocals. After Friends in 1968, it's almost like Brian disappeared as a lead vocalist. I'm not referring to a line here or a word there, but a full blown solo lead vocal. On the five studio albums from 1969-1973, he almost appeared to be hiding vocally, even on his own songs. I've never heard or read why. It's not that his voice was shot...yet.

It's true, suddenly Carl was everywhere Brian used to be.

Nice observation Sheriff.

And I think things began to shift that way as early as Smiley Smile right?

[Lonely Summer]

Am I the only person who thinks KTSA isn't actually that bad ?

Nope, you're not alone -- I'm a fan of KTSA too.

I love it, 85 too.

KTSA is not bad; half of the songs are on my repeat button. BB85 is a solid album - and no, the production doesn't bother me as much as it does others, I grew up with that sound.

[KDS]

Am I the only person who thinks KTSA isn't actually that bad ?

Nope, you're not alone -- I'm a fan of KTSA too.

I love it, 85 too.

KTSA is not bad; half of the songs are on my repeat button. BB85 is a solid album - and no, the production doesn't bother me as much as it does others, I grew up with that sound.

The 80s production doesn't really bother me.  I just think the songs on BB85 are kinda weak for the most part.  However, I think Getcha Back is the best song released by any Beach Boy in the 1980s (inlcuding the BW88 album which also has 80s production). 

[phirnis]

One of the biggest mysteries for me in the group's history, not just from the CATP/Holland period, but from 20/20 through Holland, was the scarcity of Brian Wilson lead vocals. After Friends in 1968, it's almost like Brian disappeared as a lead vocalist. I'm not referring to a line here or a word there, but a full blown solo lead vocal. On the five studio albums from 1969-1973, he almost appeared to be hiding vocally, even on his own songs. I've never heard or read why. It's not that his voice was shot...yet.

It's true, suddenly Carl was everywhere Brian used to be.

Nice observation Sheriff.

And I think things began to shift that way as early as Smiley Smile right?

He had 4 lead vocals on Friends, though, which is quite a lot - Wake the World, Man Needs a Woman, Busy Doin' Nothin', TM. His voice is also very present on Little Bird and Anna Lee. He would even have had another lead vocal moment if Meant for You had not been cut off after 30 seconds.

[donald]

I Love the Live Version of Funky Pretty.   a very STRONG live performance, one of their best on record.

"WHERE'S  MY SPARK IN THE DARK?"

[ben plumbrook]

Well I wish Stephen Desper's book had been more widely distributed. Brian we know is on Sunflower, but if you listen to the vocal blend it's obvious Brian is also still very present on Surf's Up. He isn't on Riot, or Lookin At Tomorrow, but he added new things to the other eight cuts instrumentally and/or vocally. He's doing the high parts on Disney Girls, DGNTW, both of Carl's songs, even outtakes like WIBNTLA, and Big Sur. He arranged the new harmonies on Surf's Up, sings lead on Til' I Die, and part of Feet. Of course Tree was his baby too. He's still very around, but did not write a lot.

The 1972 stuff, he wasn't around as much but he co-wrote and co-produced three out of eight songs on So Tough. No lead singing, but that's more writing for the album than any other band member. Really the album isn't designed to have any real group dynamic, it's their White Album so to speak so yes no doubt Brian was getting less involved, but the album is set up for no one person to dominate. Nobody really is featured strongly throughout, except maybe Carl slightly as a vocalist.

Holland has much less Brian than before. He didn't bother to go to the Sail On Sailor vocal session, which tells you a lot about of his growing apathy. That said he certainly helped on some of the music track. Maybe not the one used, but he has begun arranging it back in 1971 with Desper at the control board.  Funky Pretty is a full Brian cut with him playing and singing harmony, plus writing and producing. Of course Mt. Vernon is his too (though Carl and Jack had to finish it) so that does add a lot of Brian to the record. Still Holland has Brian pulling away even more than So Tough.

I Iike all the Beach Boys, and I happen to think Holland is the last album that catches them all doing top level work at the same time. Of the Acoustic Sounds vinyl reissues coming, Holland will be the most interesting. It will have Mt. Vernon on a separate LP record and have the first official release of We Got Love.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

GREAT comparison between the White Album and So Tough!

[ben plumbrook]

GREAT comparison between the White Album and So Tough!

Thanks. I've had it since 1989 and looking at it tonight the thought just struck me. Just everyone working on their own stuff and somehow it fell together as a whole. I agree about Make It Good not working all that well, but the White Album has a few less than great moments on an overall cool project too.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Holland has much less Brian than before. He didn't bother to go to the Sail On Sailor vocal session, which tells you a lot about of his growing apathy.

However he did, reportedly, call in and give Carl a rough arrangement for the "morse" keyboards.

Just struck me - it's possible he was in Iowa with Spring & Sandler.

[ben plumbrook]

Yeah he did help with it over the phone, the morse code. I think the Iowa stuff was very Jan. 1973, and Sail On was Nov 1972.
At least according to a great site by some Doe fella.

Holland was out already too.

[shangaijoeBB]

I really love both So Tough and Holland, both stellar albums even if they aren't Brian-centric. Many creative stuff on both and not boring one bit to me.

This thread inspired me to gather into a compilation most Brian compositions made from 1967 to 1975. I think something similar would sell like hotcakes, surely after the theatrical release of Love & Mercy!;)

Disc I
After the Friends Sessions to Sunflower Sessions

Disc II
From the Landlocked/Surf's Up Sessions to 1975 sessions (which gets really weird and reminds me of Big Star's Third)

BRIAN WILSON & THE BEACH BOYS 1967-1970 (DISC I)

01 Been Way Too Long
02 Do It Again
03 Walk On By
04 We're Together Again
05 I Went To Sleep
06 All I Wanna Do
07 Sail Plane Song
08 Old Man River/Old Folks At Home
09 Walkin'
10 Time To Get Alone
11 Cotton Fields
12 Loop de Loop
13 Break Away
14 Soulful Old Man
15 Games Two Can Play
16 Add Some Music To Your Day
17 When Girls Get Together
18 Our Sweet Love
19 At My Window
20 This Whole World
21 Where Is She?
22 Back Home (1970 Version)
23 Carnival
24 I Just Got My Pay
25 Good Time
26 Take A Load Off Your Feet, Pete
27 Cool, Cool Water

BRIAN WILSON & THE BEACH BOYS 1971-1975 (DISC II)

01 'Til I Die
02 H.E.L.P Is On The Way
03 My Solution
04 A Day In The Life Of A Tree
05 Surf's Up
06 Marcella
07 You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone
08 He Comes Down
09 Funky Pretty
10 Mt. Vernon and Fairway Theme
11 Im' The Pied Piper (Instrumental)
12 Better Get Back In Bed
13 Magic Transistor Radio
14 Im' The Pied Piper
15 Radio King Dom
16 Sail On Sailor
17 Had To Phone Ya
18 Shortenin' Bread
19 Good Timin'
20 It's OK
21 Battle Hymn Of The Republic
22 Rollin' Up To Heaven
23 California Feelin'
24 Child Of Winter
25 Back Home (1975 Version)
26 In The Back Of My Mind (1975 version)

(MIA for disc II are Lucy Jones, Just An Imitation, Funky Fever, Spark in the Dark, Gimme Some Lovin', Rooftop Harry, You're Riding High on the Music)

[Awesoman]

I've always had very mixed feelings about these two albums. Brian is largely absent and it shows (you could throw the Surf's Up album in there too actually). His meager contributions are easily the best tracks on these albums for me. Of course, it's interesting to hear the other guys develop as songwriters, but as great as those songs are...they don't they hold a candle to what Brian delivered in the past, or what he would deliver a few years later on "The Beach Boys Love You". That's my opinion anyway.

I know these two albums are big favorites around here, but with next-to-no Brian involvement, they both fall kinda flat for me.



Agree? Disagree? Am I alone in the wilderness?
 

   

I definitely like this period with Ricky and Blondie in tow.  It was an interesting direction the band was going in and I wish they had opportunities to explore it further (all that came to a screeching halt with 15 Big Ones).  The level of integrity certainly took a nosedive afterwards. 

[kookadams]

Am I the only person who thinks KTSA isn't actually that bad ?

KTSA was WAAY more of a solid/legitimate lp than the light album and MIU.. it has 3 rockin cuts vs just the one on LA and no godawful disco remake. MIU was the group scrambling to satisfy warners, and the light album was  leftovers of old sessions and remakes thrown together...holland is evident in its contribution from every member and as previously stated- the bookend to their 5/6 progressive era, I would really like to find a good bootleg or compilation of the 74 caribou sessions, but the bulk of that was ruined in.a fire right?

[Ron]

Am I the only person who thinks KTSA isn't actually that bad ?

I don't think it's bad at all.  It sounds dated because of when it was recorded (or the style it was recorded with) but that kind of stuff never bothers me. 

Disclaimer: I like about everything, though.  I enjoyed Jessica Simpson's music. 

[TMinthePM]

Has anything ever surfaced from the Holland sessions?

I seem to have read, somewhere in the distant past, of an extended studio workout on Funky Pretty.