So Tough/Holland=Barely any Brian on them and yet..fave albums of many here.

[GhostyTMRS]

I've always had very mixed feelings about these two albums. Brian is largely absent and it shows (you could throw the Surf's Up album in there too actually). His meager contributions are easily the best tracks on these albums for me. Of course, it's interesting to hear the other guys develop as songwriters, but as great as those songs are...they don't they hold a candle to what Brian delivered in the past, or what he would deliver a few years later on "The Beach Boys Love You". That's my opinion anyway.

I know these two albums are big favorites around here, but with next-to-no Brian involvement, they both fall kinda flat for me.



Agree? Disagree? Am I alone in the wilderness?
 

   

[SMiLE Brian]

I don't really like them. The BBs were best as BW's creative outlet. The other guys songs kinda bore me to be honest on those albums.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Actually have to disagree, SB. There are my two favorite albums after Friends!

For newcomers...So Tough Brian's on 3 songs, but is a lot more heavily on them than once thought.

[Jason Penick]

I've always had very mixed feelings about these two albums. Brian is largely absent and it shows (you could throw the Surf's Up album in there too actually). His meager contributions are easily the best tracks on these albums for me. Of course, it's interesting to hear the other guys develop as songwriters, but as great as those songs are...they don't they hold a candle to what Brian delivered in the past, or what he would deliver a few years later on "The Beach Boys Love You". That's my opinion anyway.

I know these two albums are big favorites around here, but with next-to-no Brian involvement, they both fall kinda flat for me.



Agree? Disagree? Am I alone in the wilderness?
 

   

Agree. There's some nice stuff from the other guys like "Cuddle Up", "All This Is That" and "Trader", but overall both these albums I find quite boring and uninspired. But then my enjoyment of Beach Boys albums is more-or-less in direct correlation with the amount of Brian Wilson involvement, which is why I'm more likely to listen to 15 Big Ones or MIU, even though both those albums are shaky at best.

Exceptions I guess would be Surf's Up and L.A., both of which serve as high points for Carl, FWIW.

[Mike's Beard]

I'd say that Brian was still writing at a very high level around the So Tough/Holland era and that the other guys were matching him song for song.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I'd say that Brian was still writing at a very high level around the So Tough/Holland era and that the other guys were matching him song for song.

Agreed. For me , though, the worst track by far was actually a Dennis song (Make it Good), which feels weird for me to say.

[Mike's Beard]

I hate Make it Good, the only outright duffer they put out during those early 70s years for me. I wish this line up had held together longer.

[southbay]

I like them for 2 reasons: Marcella and Sail On, Sailor...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Southbay, I dig your avatar!

[southbay]

Why thank you, Sir.  Google is a beautiful thing.

[kookadams]

So Tough to me is very weak except Marcella and bits&pieces of other cuts but I always liked Holland, the last worthwhile BBs lp. Sail on Sailor classic, California is quite catchy...but it cant be ignored that Brian was hardly involved after Sunflower, 15bO was good for what it is but Love you is very unique, great tunes.

[Compost]

Totally dig these albums, especially Holland, which has been a decade-long grower for me.  I really like the Ricky and Blondie tracks too.  'Leaving this Town' is kick ass when the keyboard solo gets going (it's lights out on 'In Concert').

Going back to 'Surf's Up', it can be spotty in places but when it's cool it's cool.  Even 'Lookin' at Tomorrow' does it for me - trippy as f**k.

Sure, they're not BW through and through, but then, I'm a Beach Boys fan!

[phirnis]

Loved Holland from the first time I heard it! In many ways it represents the group members' "true selves" like few other BB records do, with Brian being reclusive and doing experimental stuff (Mt Vernon and Fairway) yet still providing the hit single (SOS), Dennis writing a tender love song, Mike and Alan doing songs about California, and Carl holding it all together. Leaving This Town is great too, like a 70s rock update of That's Not Me.

[Eric Aniversario]

For me, So Tough was an album I liked from almost the first listen. It showed me a different side of the Beach Boys that wasn't revealed on the Best Of Comps out at the time. Holland, however, was definitely a grower for me.

[ppk700]

I love "So Tough," I LOVE "Holland," I love "Surf's Up," of course... and "Sunflower," and "20/20..." anything from '66-'73 is as good as it gets, for me. The greatest band ever, at the height of their powers. Whether it was Brian as the principle songwriter, or a "democratic" effort, I think they ALL deserve all the credit in the world. Long live The Beach Boys...

[kookadams]

So Tough wasn't a "side project" as said b4 but it was like an alter ego of the group experimenting w the new sound they established w blondie & ricky...being that every BB album had twelve cuts w a couple exceptions So Tough was six group songs and two outtakes from Dennis's shelved first solo project; Holland was SO MANY things though- the FULL representation of the ricky/blondie sound, the last solid group effort and the bookend of the BBs as an album making entity in the industry. Make sense?

[kookadams]

I love "So Tough," I LOVE "Holland," I love "Surf's Up," of course... and "Sunflower," and "20/20..." anything from '66-'73 is as good as it gets, for me. The greatest band ever, at the height of their powers. Whether it was Brian as the principle songwriter, or a "democratic" effort, I think they ALL deserve all the credit in the world. Long live The Beach Boys...

I say EVERY BBs album from 63 to 73 was/is killer, the only weak album in those years was Friends...little bird MADE that album but even bruce said it was weak.

[ppk700]

I love "So Tough," I LOVE "Holland," I love "Surf's Up," of course... and "Sunflower," and "20/20..." anything from '66-'73 is as good as it gets, for me. The greatest band ever, at the height of their powers. Whether it was Brian as the principle songwriter, or a "democratic" effort, I think they ALL deserve all the credit in the world. Long live The Beach Boys...

I say EVERY BBs album from 63 to 73 was/is killer, the only weak album in those years was Friends...little bird MADE that album but even bruce said it was weak.

I absolutely love "Friends," but I'm not a huge fan of the "Little Deuce Coupe" album, or the "Surfin' Safari" album. "Surfin' USA," "All Summer Long," "Summer Days (etc.)" are pretty darn great, especially "Surfin' USA..." LOVE that album. I'll take the early 60's stuff over the post-'73 stuff any day, for sure. (Although I do love "Love You" and "LA (Light Album).")

[kookadams]

Agreed. 76 was brians year tho, love you coming out after four years of nada. Its not even so much that the BBs were done making legitimate albums after holland, its that new music was no longer their focus. The last forty years of the BBs is a devotion to the performance not the product.

[Jim V.]

Interesting that you brought this topic up, Ghosty. It's something that's kinda crossed my mind before. And in advance, I'm gonna say, I'm a very Brian-centric Beach Boys fan. I love every other member as well, but it's Brian's songs which do it for me.

So why do I like Carl and the Passions and Holland so much? I think it's a combination of the songs (of course) and the general vibe of those albums. It's a more scuffed-up sound then we're used to The Beach Boys. And a lot of the time I really like stuff that is a little loser, a little funkier. I also gotta say that The Beach Boys and a few other great artists from this era (Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan, Nilsson) had this cool mellow, but still funky and rockin' earthiness to their approach and look from, say '71 through '73ish. And that's part of why I'm into this period.

Also, the songs on both albums are nothing to complain about. "You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone", "Marcella" and "Sail On, Sailor" all showed Brian's new somewhat rougher, rockin' approach and three songs are major successes artistically, and somewhat commercially in the case of "Sail On, Sailor." He also showed he go do gospel with "He Come Down" and continued his ethereal approach of "'Til I Die" and "Sweet Mountain" with "Funky Pretty."  Then you have some great stuff from Blondie and Ricky like "Here She Comes" which a nice piece of early 1970s rock. Mike and Al also do their with "All This Is That" (with Carl) and stuff like Mike's "Big Sur" and Al's "California." With Carl, in addition to the already mentioned "All This Is That," gives us "The Trader," which took time for me to end up enjoying. But now it seems obvious to me, than a few times in early '70s, Carl was really making some music that can stand up to his brother Brian or Dennis' tunes. The non-Brian guys really seemed to come into their own in this era and I think this really has helped these albums to be so appreciated all this time later. I do have to say, some of the only somewhat lower points come from Dennis. On Carl and the Passions seemed a bit more style than substance. And I like what some would call pretty "meandering" ambient stuff, but "Make It Good" especially seems to go nowhere. Although it does sound] nice still, but as nothing more than a mood piece. On the other hand, I think "Steamboat" and "Only With You" from Holland are top notch songs. The band just really had everybody hit their stride on Holland and the only things truly messing were a lead vocal from Dennis and also more leads from Brian than just his part in "California."

[Ron]

I dunno.  I think they're both decent albums... a lot better than some of the later stuff.  The whole 70's period is a different sound for them so although the albums don't have as many killer, legendary songs like some of the other albums do, it's kind of interesting to listen to them from time to time just to hear something different that they did.  There's some gems in there, I love the California Saga suite from beginning to end, even the spoken word part.   I've got an old Columbia turntable from the 50's that I've had "Holland" on for a long time, every once in awhile I fire that thing up and let the album play, it sounds really good with a lot of warmth to it. 

Brian's not there much... but everybody else is!  His spirit's there, even though he didn't do sh*t his presence looms large on everything they were doing back then. 

[Smilin Ed H]

Love Holland and Surf's Up. Love CATP a bit less.

[Cool Cool Water]

Both wonderful (creative) albums.

[filledeplage]

Both wonderful (creative) albums.

Absolutely...I tend to think of them as one brilliant work. 

[Mr. Tiger]

I take it even further than that. My favorite BB albums are essentially Surfer Girl through Friends. There is still much that I enjoy in the later albums (particularly 20/20 through Love You), but I don't hold even Sunflower in the same regard as, say, All Summer Long. I appreciate the other guys, I love Pacific Ocean Blue, but for me the BB pinnacle is always when the primary sound and sensibility is coming from "classic" Brian.