Don Was Sessions - can someone tell me the story?

[clack]

How and why Carl's taste in music took such a wrong turn in the 80's is an untold story. I mean, did he ever hear XTC? How could he listen to Beach Boys-influenced New Wave stuff like that and then figure that taking the path of Olivia Newton John was the way to go.

The Paley sessions were maybe not terribly commercial, but that quasi-retro sound was what was happening in the mid 90's. I get the feeling that Carl had no idea, though, about what was happening musically past 1972.

[Rocker]

Let us not forget that Was produced the shittiest Dylan album eva!

On the other hand, he produced some great (!) albums by the Highwaymen (The Road Goes On Forever) and Waylon Jennings (Waymore's Blues Part II) around this time (mid 90s).

[c-man]

How and why Carl's taste in music took such a wrong turn in the 80's is an untold story. I mean, did he ever hear XTC? How could he listen to Beach Boys-influenced New Wave stuff like that and then figure that taking the path of Olivia Newton John was the way to go.

The Paley sessions were maybe not terribly commercial, but that quasi-retro sound was what was happening in the mid 90's. I get the feeling that Carl had no idea, though, about what was happening musically past 1972.

To your first point - who knows if I'm right on this, but I kinda get the impression that once Carl cleaned himself up (early or mid 1978), he began to associate anything outside of MOR/AOR rock and pop with a certain lifestyle that he now wished to steer clear of. Plus, to your second point, none of the hit-makers that he was friendly with (America, Chicago, Christopher Cross) were into the quasi-retro sound of the mid-'90s, either. So I think he just got stuck in the rut of thinking the MOR/AOR scene is the only way to go, and was not into getting out of his comfort zone anymore (music-wise and lifestyle-wise).

[Mike's Beard]

How and why Carl's taste in music took such a wrong turn in the 80's is an untold story. I mean, did he ever hear XTC? How could he listen to Beach Boys-influenced New Wave stuff like that and then figure that taking the path of Olivia Newton John was the way to go.

Because by music industry standards the Beach Boys were old farts by the 1980s onwards.

[Howie Edelson]

I firmly believe that had a full LP of the Paley sessions been overdubbed with the BB’s voices, we would’ve seen a MONSTER hit. To his credit, when I asked Mike about it, he remembered being impressed with the material, enjoying the sessions and couldn’t exactly remember why they broke down and morphed into Stripes. Although the country covers LP was seemingly his idea -- I definitely got the impression that the impetus to end work on those songs did not come from him and that he would've seen the project to fruition.

Bruce Johnston was very forthcoming to me regarding his thoughts on being in the studio for "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still A Mystery" and seriously recording with Brian Wilson for the first time in a decade, saying, quote, "That was a courtesy to Brian for us to be there. Brian certainly wasn't at any kind of peak in those days, but we respected his history and achievements for us to go and record with him and see what it might sound like. We were just trying to support someone who had been successful and good for us. I think if you use your ears, you'll hear that those tapes don't really lift off. It's fine -- but not fine enough."

I think in light of The Beatles Anthology, and the lackluster response to the Frankenstein-ed “Free As A Bird” and “Real Love” tracks, that the (Brian Wilson is really free at last) Paley material -- not “reproduced” -- but tweaked and remixed as a Beach Boys LP -- would’ve been among the most important works of their career. I still view those songs as the definitive Brian Wilson solo LP.

[Rocker]

Thanks Howie for that post!

Do we have a list of the Paley-Wilson songs that were planned for the Beach Boys to record? I guess not everything that Brian and Andy worked on was supposed to be Beach Boys material.

On AGD's site I see "It's not easy being me" mentioned and also one called "Turn on your lovelight". Is the latter the R'n'B classic or a newly written song?

[c-man]

Thanks Howie for that post!

Do we have a list of the Paley-Wilson songs that were planned for the Beach Boys to record? I guess not everything that Brian and Andy worked on was supposed to be Beach Boys material.

On AGD's site I see "It's not easy being me" mentioned and also one called "Turn on your lovelight". Is the latter the R'n'B classic or a newly written song?

Mike reportedly wanted to rewrite the lyrics to "Chain Reaction Of Love'.

[Rocker]

Thanks Howie for that post!

Do we have a list of the Paley-Wilson songs that were planned for the Beach Boys to record? I guess not everything that Brian and Andy worked on was supposed to be Beach Boys material.

On AGD's site I see "It's not easy being me" mentioned and also one called "Turn on your lovelight". Is the latter the R'n'B classic or a newly written song?

Mike reportedly wanted to rewrite the lyrics to "Chain Reaction Of Love'.

I never heard about that! Thanks for the info!
We don't know if he had a title, do we? Or maybe he just wanted to change somethin here and there but sticking to the concept of Chain Reaction...
Boy, that would've been a cool song for the Boys. Maybe with a lead vocal by Carl

[John Malone]

How and why Carl's taste in music took such a wrong turn in the 80's is an untold story. I mean, did he ever hear XTC? How could he listen to Beach Boys-influenced New Wave stuff like that and then figure that taking the path of Olivia Newton John was the way to go.

The Paley sessions were maybe not terribly commercial, but that quasi-retro sound was what was happening in the mid 90's. I get the feeling that Carl had no idea, though, about what was happening musically past 1972.

To your first point - who knows if I'm right on this, but I kinda get the impression that once Carl cleaned himself up (early or mid 1978), he began to associate anything outside of MOR/AOR rock and pop with a certain lifestyle that he now wished to steer clear of. Plus, to your second point, none of the hit-makers that he was friendly with (America, Chicago, Christopher Cross) were into the quasi-retro sound of the mid-'90s, either. So I think he just got stuck in the rut of thinking the MOR/AOR scene is the only way to go, and was not into getting out of his comfort zone anymore (music-wise and lifestyle-wise).

From a format definition perspective, AOR means "Album Oriented Rock." That would imply, to me, stuff more in line with Holland. AOR was most commonly associated with bands like Led Zeppelin, et al. I would say MOR or soft pop would better describe the 80s/90s stuff.

[Smilin Ed H]

How about MOR AOR?

[Lonely Summer]

Let us not forget that Was produced the shittiest Dylan album eva!

I'll take Under the Red Sky any day over Knocked Out Loaded.

[Theydon Bois]

Let us not forget that Was produced the shittiest Dylan album eva!

I'll take Under the Red Sky any day over Knocked Out Loaded.

Word.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Let us not forget that Was produced the shittiest Dylan album eva!

I'll take Under the Red Sky any day over Knocked Out Loaded.

Word.

It's obviously not one of Dylan's best, but I have a soft spot for Under The Red Sky. Some of the songs - "God Knows", "Unbelievable", "Born In Time", "Cats In The Well", the title track, and, yes, "Wiggle Wiggle" - are pretty respectable I think.

[SBonilla]

How and why Carl's taste in music took such a wrong turn in the 80's is an untold story. I mean, did he ever hear XTC? How could he listen to Beach Boys-influenced New Wave stuff like that and then figure that taking the path of Olivia Newton John was the way to go.

The Paley sessions were maybe not terribly commercial, but that quasi-retro sound was what was happening in the mid 90's. I get the feeling that Carl had no idea, though, about what was happening musically past 1972.

To your first point - who knows if I'm right on this, but I kinda get the impression that once Carl cleaned himself up (early or mid 1978), he began to associate anything outside of MOR/AOR rock and pop with a certain lifestyle that he now wished to steer clear of. Plus, to your second point, none of the hit-makers that he was friendly with (America, Chicago, Christopher Cross) were into the quasi-retro sound of the mid-'90s, either. So I think he just got stuck in the rut of thinking the MOR/AOR scene is the only way to go, and was not into getting out of his comfort zone anymore (music-wise and lifestyle-wise).

From a format definition perspective, AOR means "Album Oriented Rock." That would imply, to me, stuff more in line with Holland. AOR was most commonly associated with bands like Led Zeppelin, et al. I would say MOR or soft pop would better describe the 80s/90s stuff.

Depending on the single/track, The Beach Boys were promoted at AOR, CHR and AC (Adult Comtemporary) stations.

[Jason Penick]

To your first point - who knows if I'm right on this, but I kinda get the impression that once Carl cleaned himself up (early or mid 1978), he began to associate anything outside of MOR/AOR rock and pop with a certain lifestyle that he now wished to steer clear of. Plus, to your second point, none of the hit-makers that he was friendly with (America, Chicago, Christopher Cross) were into the quasi-retro sound of the mid-'90s, either. So I think he just got stuck in the rut of thinking the MOR/AOR scene is the only way to go, and was not into getting out of his comfort zone anymore (music-wise and lifestyle-wise).

This seems about right to me as well. One other point is that XTC was very much an underground band in the 80s, though they did briefly cross over to MTV with a couple of songs from Skylarking. The Beach Boys, not being a band that catered to the underground since the early 70s, were very much chasing a sound that would result in airplay on Top 40, which is why they were covering songs by established hitmakers of the day such as Culture Club and Stevie Wonder (and Bruce Springsteen essentially). This of course resulted with the short term payoff of "Wipe Out" and especially "Kokomo", so it's likely that Carl would have seen the Paley material as either too anachronistic or too left-of-center to square with the modern Top 40. At least Stars and Stripes did have some chance of getting played on Country stations, though whether or not it ever did I'm uncertain (and certainly none of the songs were big hits).

[Jason Penick]

I firmly believe that had a full LP of the Paley sessions been overdubbed with the BB’s voices, we would’ve seen a MONSTER hit. To his credit, when I asked Mike about it, he remembered being impressed with the material, enjoying the sessions and couldn’t exactly remember why they broke down and morphed into Stripes. Although the country covers LP was seemingly his idea -- I definitely got the impression that the impetus to end work on those songs did not come from him and that he would've seen the project to fruition.

Bruce Johnston was very forthcoming to me regarding his thoughts on being in the studio for "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still A Mystery" and seriously recording with Brian Wilson for the first time in a decade, saying, quote, "That was a courtesy to Brian for us to be there. Brian certainly wasn't at any kind of peak in those days, but we respected his history and achievements for us to go and record with him and see what it might sound like. We were just trying to support someone who had been successful and good for us. I think if you use your ears, you'll hear that those tapes don't really lift off. It's fine -- but not fine enough."

I think in light of The Beatles Anthology, and the lackluster response to the Frankenstein-ed “Free As A Bird” and “Real Love” tracks, that the (Brian Wilson is really free at last) Paley material -- not “reproduced” -- but tweaked and remixed as a Beach Boys LP -- would’ve been among the most important works of their career. I still view those songs as the definitive Brian Wilson solo LP.

While I'm not as certain as you that it would have been a monster hit, I couldn't agree more with your take on the quality of the original Paley sessions. With better vocals from Brian and the addition of the other Beach Boys, it would have gone down as one of their best post-Capitol albums. Bruce has always expressed odd (IMO) opinions when it comes to Brian's music, like the time he dissed Friends.

[Moon Dawg]

  I always wondered why Carl went along with SUMMER IN PARADISE but walked away from the Don Was sessions. I think he knew that people would expect more from a Brian Wilson project and wondered if the songwriting was up to par. Note also that Carl doubted Brian's ability to pull off PET SOUNDS live.

 It's important to remember that Carl, while not yet diagnosed with cancer, may not have been feeling well by this time. I remember being concerned about him after seeing the guys on David Letterman about 1996 - he looked tired.

 In a better world, we'd have gotten one last great Brian Wilson produced Beach Boys' album with Carl Wilson as a major factor. It didn't happen, but then again Carl gave of his best his entire tenure with the band (age 15-51) with the brief exception of early 1978.

[John Malone]

  I always wondered why Carl went along with SUMMER IN PARADISE but walked away from the Don Was sessions. I think he knew that people would expect more from a Brian Wilson project and wondered if the songwriting was up to par. Note also that Carl doubted Brian's ability to pull off PET SOUNDS live.

 It's important to remember that Carl, while not yet diagnosed with cancer, may not have been feeling well by this time. I remember being concerned about him after seeing the guys on David Letterman about 1996 - he looked tired.

 In a better world, we'd have gotten one last great Brian Wilson produced Beach Boys' album with Carl Wilson as a major factor. It didn't happen, but then again Carl gave of his best his entire tenure with the band (age 15-51) with the brief exception of early 1978.

Very good observation about Carl going along with SIP and not the Don Was sessions. Never considered that. As Bruce said in the BW A&E Biography, these things couldn't go on in a group where people weren't related!

[c-man]

How and why Carl's taste in music took such a wrong turn in the 80's is an untold story. I mean, did he ever hear XTC? How could he listen to Beach Boys-influenced New Wave stuff like that and then figure that taking the path of Olivia Newton John was the way to go.

The Paley sessions were maybe not terribly commercial, but that quasi-retro sound was what was happening in the mid 90's. I get the feeling that Carl had no idea, though, about what was happening musically past 1972.

To your first point - who knows if I'm right on this, but I kinda get the impression that once Carl cleaned himself up (early or mid 1978), he began to associate anything outside of MOR/AOR rock and pop with a certain lifestyle that he now wished to steer clear of. Plus, to your second point, none of the hit-makers that he was friendly with (America, Chicago, Christopher Cross) were into the quasi-retro sound of the mid-'90s, either. So I think he just got stuck in the rut of thinking the MOR/AOR scene is the only way to go, and was not into getting out of his comfort zone anymore (music-wise and lifestyle-wise).

From a format definition perspective, AOR means "Album Oriented Rock." That would imply, to me, stuff more in line with Holland. AOR was most commonly associated with bands like Led Zeppelin, et al. I would say MOR or soft pop would better describe the 80s/90s stuff.

By AOR, I meant what it had become by the early to mid '80s: Toto, Boston, etc. Maybe "arena rock" would be a better descriptor. Hence his composition of songs like "Maybe I Don't Know" and some of things on his solo albums. I think about the most creative he got in that time was "It's Getting Late", which I think is pretty respectable. And while not really progressive, "Where I Belong" is still knock-out gorgeous.

[adamghost]

I firmly believe that had a full LP of the Paley sessions been overdubbed with the BB’s voices, we would’ve seen a MONSTER hit. To his credit, when I asked Mike about it, he remembered being impressed with the material, enjoying the sessions and couldn’t exactly remember why they broke down and morphed into Stripes. Although the country covers LP was seemingly his idea -- I definitely got the impression that the impetus to end work on those songs did not come from him and that he would've seen the project to fruition.

Bruce Johnston was very forthcoming to me regarding his thoughts on being in the studio for "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still A Mystery" and seriously recording with Brian Wilson for the first time in a decade, saying, quote, "That was a courtesy to Brian for us to be there. Brian certainly wasn't at any kind of peak in those days, but we respected his history and achievements for us to go and record with him and see what it might sound like. We were just trying to support someone who had been successful and good for us. I think if you use your ears, you'll hear that those tapes don't really lift off. It's fine -- but not fine enough."

I think in light of The Beatles Anthology, and the lackluster response to the Frankenstein-ed “Free As A Bird” and “Real Love” tracks, that the (Brian Wilson is really free at last) Paley material -- not “reproduced” -- but tweaked and remixed as a Beach Boys LP -- would’ve been among the most important works of their career. I still view those songs as the definitive Brian Wilson solo LP.

While I'm not as certain as you that it would have been a monster hit, I couldn't agree more with your take on the quality of the original Paley sessions. With better vocals from Brian and the addition of the other Beach Boys, it would have gone down as one of their best post-Capitol albums. Bruce has always expressed odd (IMO) opinions when it comes to Brian's music, like the time he dissed Friends.

Bruce is talking about the songs from the aspect of using what L.A. types used to call "industry ears" - he's talking about the extra bit of perceived quality that's going to transcend into the mainstream.  He's an old industry guy and he's in a hit-oriented band (even at that late date that was the mindset), so I can understand his perspective, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

[Lonely Summer]

Let us not forget that Was produced the shittiest Dylan album eva!

I'll take Under the Red Sky any day over Knocked Out Loaded.

Word.

It's obviously not one of Dylan's best, but I have a soft spot for Under The Red Sky. Some of the songs - "God Knows", "Unbelievable", "Born In Time", "Cats In The Well", the title track, and, yes, "Wiggle Wiggle" - are pretty respectable I think.

I' ve been hearing a new version of "Unbelievable" on the local college station, a soul/r&b take on the song. Glad someone recognized it was worth reviving. I'm also fond of 'TV Talkin' Song".

[Autotune]

  I always wondered why Carl went along with SUMMER IN PARADISE but walked away from the Don Was sessions. I think he knew that people would expect more from a Brian Wilson project and wondered if the songwriting was up to par. Note also that Carl doubted Brian's ability to pull off PET SOUNDS live.

 It's important to remember that Carl, while not yet diagnosed with cancer, may not have been feeling well by this time. I remember being concerned about him after seeing the guys on David Letterman about 1996 - he looked tired.

 In a better world, we'd have gotten one last great Brian Wilson produced Beach Boys' album with Carl Wilson as a major factor. It didn't happen, but then again Carl gave of his best his entire tenure with the band (age 15-51) with the brief exception of early 1978.

Very good observation about Carl going along with SIP and not the Don Was sessions. Never considered that. As Bruce said in the BW A&E Biography, these things couldn't go on in a group where people weren't related!

Keep in mind that in those years Carl and Brian's relationship was poisoned by the autobiography, which made a huge negative impact on the younger Wilson brother.

[John Malone]

  I always wondered why Carl went along with SUMMER IN PARADISE but walked away from the Don Was sessions. I think he knew that people would expect more from a Brian Wilson project and wondered if the songwriting was up to par. Note also that Carl doubted Brian's ability to pull off PET SOUNDS live.

 It's important to remember that Carl, while not yet diagnosed with cancer, may not have been feeling well by this time. I remember being concerned about him after seeing the guys on David Letterman about 1996 - he looked tired.

 In a better world, we'd have gotten one last great Brian Wilson produced Beach Boys' album with Carl Wilson as a major factor. It didn't happen, but then again Carl gave of his best his entire tenure with the band (age 15-51) with the brief exception of early 1978.

Very good observation about Carl going along with SIP and not the Don Was sessions. Never considered that. As Bruce said in the BW A&E Biography, these things couldn't go on in a group where people weren't related!

Keep in mind that in those years Carl and Brian's relationship was poisoned by the autobiography, which made a huge negative impact on the younger Wilson brother.

Other than depositions, etc., was there ever an "official" denunciation of the WIBN book from Brian? I can imagine that Carl and some of the others were hurt by a lot of the claims in the book. If one of my family members had a book written in their name that slandered me, I would have a difficult time saying, "Oh, I knew it wasn't you writing it." Particularly after the charade of promoting it as one's own writing. I can image it was hard to get past that.

Since it can still be found on Amazon and a few other places, I wonder how that will be addressed in "I Am Brian Wilson." Will Brian come right out and write "I know I had another autobiography in the past, but don't believe it."

[Lonely Summer]

  I always wondered why Carl went along with SUMMER IN PARADISE but walked away from the Don Was sessions. I think he knew that people would expect more from a Brian Wilson project and wondered if the songwriting was up to par. Note also that Carl doubted Brian's ability to pull off PET SOUNDS live.

 It's important to remember that Carl, while not yet diagnosed with cancer, may not have been feeling well by this time. I remember being concerned about him after seeing the guys on David Letterman about 1996 - he looked tired.

 In a better world, we'd have gotten one last great Brian Wilson produced Beach Boys' album with Carl Wilson as a major factor. It didn't happen, but then again Carl gave of his best his entire tenure with the band (age 15-51) with the brief exception of early 1978.

Very good observation about Carl going along with SIP and not the Don Was sessions. Never considered that. As Bruce said in the BW A&E Biography, these things couldn't go on in a group where people weren't related!

Keep in mind that in those years Carl and Brian's relationship was poisoned by the autobiography, which made a huge negative impact on the younger Wilson brother.

Other than depositions, etc., was there ever an "official" denunciation of the WIBN book from Brian? I can imagine that Carl and some of the others were hurt by a lot of the claims in the book. If one of my family members had a book written in their name that slandered me, I would have a difficult time saying, "Oh, I knew it wasn't you writing it." Particularly after the charade of promoting it as one's own writing. I can image it was hard to get past that.

Since it can still be found on Amazon and a few other places, I wonder how that will be addressed in "I Am Brian Wilson." Will Brian come right out and write "I know I had another autobiography in the past, but don't believe it."

I remember seeing Brian on the John Tesh show and being asked "how much of a catharsis was it, writing your autobiography?" 'Writing? I didn't write it, John. Actually, I was only interviewed for it for a couple hours; Dr. Landy did the majority of it, and frankly, he got a lot of things wrong, including his character assassination of my brother Carl." Oh wait, I only imagined that answer.

[Rocker]

I don't know how much it affected Carl but on Christmas Day 1995 his father-in-law, Dean Martin, passed away. So I guess he also had other things in mind.