Don Was Sessions - can someone tell me the story?

[Banana]

I'm sure this has been discussed before - and yes - I did search the forum - couldn't find what I was after.

Can someone tell me about the "aborted" sessions with Don Was from around 1995-97?

I've always thought these sessions were originally for a new BB LP.  Was that the case?  I've also always been under the understanding that Carl vetoed the project.  How come?

We did get two of the tracks on the "Made in California" set - but were any other songs anywhere near finished?

I guess I kind of find the subject fascinating - that there might have been a new BB record with the involvement of Brian and Carl and company.

Thanks!

[HeyJude]

Here's one resource, though I'm not sure how outdated it might be:

http://smileysmile.net/OLDlibrary/timeline.html

[KDS]

Here's a pretty good timeline of the sessions you're referring to:

http://smileysmile.net/OLDlibrary/timeline.html

[KDS]

Hey Jude,

Great minds think alike. 

[Banana]

Thanks for the info.  Interesting read - but why exactly did Carl walk out of the session?

[HeyJude]

We still seem to only have scattered detailed info on the sessions. But several different sources seem to indicate Carl had some sort of issue with the material. It’s one of those relatively rare cases where it *may* have befuddlingly been Carl who put the kibosh on some *potentially* strong songs/recordings. One report indicated he didn’t think the material was commercial. I believe Al said in his 2000 Goldmine/Record Collector interview that he liked the material, and cited Carl as the one who had an issue. Mike mentioned in Peter Ames Carlin’s book something to the effect that they/he was willing to work on the material, though not necessarily enthusiastic about it. My recollection is that, in that book, he seems to not be particularly sure why the sessions didn’t continue.

Why Carl would have nixed working on that material, but agreed to “Stars and Stripes”, we may never know. 

[KDS]

Carl was also ungoing cancer treatment at the time.  Maybe he just wasn't up to recording a new album.   

I could be wrong, but I think had Carl lived, something more would've come out of that session. 

[HeyJude]

While it’s unlikely anybody would ever know when Carl was first suffering from the condition, I don’t think he had been diagnosed or undergoing treatment during most if not all of the Paley/Was sessions. Those took place in the 1995 timeframe as I recall. I don’t think he was doing any treatment until late 1996 or 1997.

He did the “Stars and Stripes” stuff after, and obviously toured into the summer of 1997.

I’m guessing there’s not a direct corollary between Carl’s health and ceasing work on the Was/Paley tracks.

[Jason Penick]

We still seem to only have scattered detailed info on the sessions. But several different sources seem to indicate Carl had some sort of issue with the material. It’s one of those relatively rare cases where it *may* have befuddlingly been Carl who put the kibosh on some *potentially* strong songs/recordings. One report indicated he didn’t think the material was commercial. I believe Al said in his 2000 Goldmine/Record Collector interview that he liked the material, and cited Carl as the one who had an issue. Mike mentioned in Peter Ames Carlin’s book something to the effect that they/he was willing to work on the material, though not necessarily enthusiastic about it. My recollection is that, in that book, he seems to not be particularly sure why the sessions didn’t continue.

Why Carl would have nixed working on that material, but agreed to “Stars and Stripes”, we may never know.  

This was the only conclusion I could reach. There's no other logical explanation I can think of as to why Carl Wilson of all people would choose to participate in such mediocrity as Summer in Paradise and Stars and Stripes, while walking away from what could have been the best Beach Boys album since Love You. In retrospect at least, it looks like a rare lapse of good judgement on Carl's part. I'm sure there's more to the story though then we're unaware of.

[Wirestone]

A couple of points: Carl's last real studio project was the trio with Beckley and Lamm. It's pretty easy to tell from that record that Carl's head was not in the place of the Wilson/Paley tracks, with their heavy retro vibe.

A few other things were going on here, too.

1.) Apparently, Don Was didn't think the material was as strong as it could be, so he wanted Brian and Andy to go back and do some more writing. He claims that Brian agreed.

2.) Mike wanted a bigger hand in co-writing the material, and actually he and Brian and Carl worked on "Dancin' the Night Away" (or "Baywatch Nights") after the Was sessions had already ended, IIRC. (Thanks, c-man!)

3.) Bruce was angling to get Sean O'Hagan, or a more avant-pop producer, involved.

4.) The group ended up thinking that the entire project was too complicated to sort out immediately, so they went with Stars and Stripes. Mike's idea was that an album like that could re-introduce the band (the Eagles had dome something similar) to the public, and they could follow up with new material.

5.) Brian met Joe and hit it off, so they decided to work together on new material after S&S was done. Even then, though, they worked on both BW solo material and songs intended for the group.

6.) Ultimately, I don't think the Paley / Was sessions stuff was off the table until Carl passed. Then it looked like a missed opportunity. Before that, I think everyone likely thought of it as more of a delay.

[Banana]

A couple of points: Carl's last real studio project was the trio with Beckley and Lamm. It's pretty easy to tell from that record that Carl's head was not in the place of the Wilson/Paley tracks, with their heavy retro vibe.

A few other things were going on here, too.

1.) Apparently, Don Was didn't think the material was as strong as it could be, so he wanted Brian and Andy to go back and do some more writing. He claims that Brian agreed.

2.) Mike wanted a bigger hand in co-writing the material, and actually he and Brian and Carl worked on "Dancin' the Night Away" (or "Baywatch Nights") after the Was sessions had already ended, IIRC.

3.) Bruce was angling to get Sean O'Hagan, or a more avant-pop producer, involved.

4.) The group ended up thinking that the entire project was too complicated to sort out immediately, so they went with Stars and Stripes. Mike's idea was that an album like that could re-introduce the band (the Eagles had dome something similar) to the public, and they could follow up with new material.

5.) Brian met Joe and hit it off, so they decided to work together on new material after S&S was done. Even then, though, they worked on both BW solo material and songs intended for the group.

6.) Even with all of this, I don't think the Paley / Was sessions stuff was off the table until Carl passed. Then it looked like a missed opportunity. Before that, I think everyone likely thought of it as more of a delay.

Good stuff, everyone!  Interesting that it was Bruce who was angling for a younger producer.

So, basically in retrospect it looks like a missed opportunity - but that is through the 20 years that have passed since the sessions first took place.

[southbay]

A couple of points: Carl's last real studio project was the trio with Beckley and Lamm. It's pretty easy to tell from that record that Carl's head was not in the place of the Wilson/Paley tracks, with their heavy retro vibe.

A few other things were going on here, too.

1.) Apparently, Don Was didn't think the material was as strong as it could be, so he wanted Brian and Andy to go back and do some more writing. He claims that Brian agreed.

2.) Mike wanted a bigger hand in co-writing the material, and actually he and Brian and Carl worked on "Dancin' the Night Away" (or "Baywatch Nights") after the Was sessions had already ended, IIRC.

3.) Bruce was angling to get Sean O'Hagan, or a more avant-pop producer, involved.

4.) The group ended up thinking that the entire project was too complicated to sort out immediately, so they went with Stars and Stripes. Mike's idea was that an album like that could re-introduce the band (the Eagles had dome something similar) to the public, and they could follow up with new material.

5.) Brian met Joe and hit it off, so they decided to work together on new material after S&S was done. Even then, though, they worked on both BW solo material and songs intended for the group.

6.) Ultimately, I don't think the Paley / Was sessions stuff was off the table until Carl passed. Then it looked like a missed opportunity. Before that, I think everyone likely thought of it as more of a delay.

#4 is absolutely true.  I had the opportunity to ask Elliott Lott about both the Was Sessions and the then currently in progress  Stars and Stripes sessions in late 95/early 96. He in fact said that the band was recording the country material in Nashville but was "more excited" about the Was sessions and intended to get back to them after the S&S material was done.  The notion that Carl nixed the Was Sessions but then agreed to do Stars & Stripes is just not accurate. I mean, he may have ultimately walked out on the Was sessions, but it wasn't to do S&S instead

[HeyJude]

It’s worth pointing out, though, that a hypothetical future Was-produced album is a different concept from what they actually worked on in 1995. Carl may well have wanted to do the Was album after S&S. But he did allegedly/reportedly not think the material they did work on (meaning presumably only the two or three: “Soul Searchin’”, “You’re Still a Mystery”, and perhaps “Dancing the Night Away”) was commercial enough.

So, he may indeed have balked at “Soul Searchin’” but was okay with S&S. Obviously, there was a time and organizational aspect, to say nothing of the politics involved. There was a general idea among at least some participants, apparently, that the Paley material wasn’t strong enough. It sounds like Was felt this way to some degree. Also, it was rumored part of the issue Carl had with “Soul Searchin” was the Was-produced backing track (which we’ve never heard), which was why, prior to Carl’s death, they did the first attempt to sync the original Paley backing track to the Was-produced group vocals. In other words, while Carl may have been iffy on the material, it’s not impossible that a theoretical Was album post-S&S could have still included re-worked versions of the songs they had already recorded.

Paley would later go on to claim the stuff he did with Brian was essentially ready to go for the BB’s to work on (seeming offended at the idea that they were “demos”), going so far as to say in one interview that the BB’s could have cut vocals for an entire album within a few days.

I’ve never thought the bulk of the Paley stuff was like pure genius or anything, but the best 10 or 12, while uneven overall, would still have been better than S&S.  

[Jason Penick]

Just wanted to say, great and informative posts so far. This is turning into a fantastic thread.

Personally, I'm sold on the Paley material. I think it's wonderful stuff as far as the writing and arranging is concerned. With recut group vocals I have no doubt it would rank amongst my favorite Beach Boys albums.

[GhostyTMRS]

I've also heard from multiple sources that Carl thought Brian's material was very poor. I've got nothing but love for Carl, but he was totally wrong about this in my opinion. As Wirestone points out, the Beckley/Lamm/Wilson project was the type of sound he favored at the time or at least thought had some kind of commercial potential. That album is mediocre at best but worth it to hear "I Wish For You".

[southbay]

It’s worth pointing out, though, that a hypothetical future Was-produced album is a different concept from what they actually worked on in 1995. Carl may well have wanted to do the Was album after S&S. But he did allegedly/reportedly not think the material they did work on (meaning presumably only the two or three: “Soul Searchin’”, “You’re Still a Mystery”, and perhaps “Dancing the Night Away”) was commercial enough.

So, he may indeed have balked at “Soul Searchin’” but was okay with S&S. Obviously, there was a time and organizational aspect, to say nothing of the politics involved. There was a general idea among at least some participants, apparently, that the Paley material wasn’t strong enough. It sounds like Was felt this way to some degree. Also, it was rumored part of the issue Carl had with “Soul Searchin” was the Was-produced backing track (which we’ve never heard), which was why, prior to Carl’s death, they did the first attempt to sync the original Paley backing track to the Was-produced group vocals. In other words, while Carl may have been iffy on the material, it’s not impossible that a theoretical Was album post-S&S could have still included re-worked versions of the songs they had already recorded.

Paley would later go on to claim the stuff he did with Brian was essentially ready to go for the BB’s to work on (seeming offended at the idea that they were “demos”), going so far as to say in one interview that the BB’s could have cut vocals for an entire album within a few days.

I’ve never thought the bulk of the Paley stuff was like pure genius or anything, but the best 10 or 12, while uneven overall, would still have been better than S&S.  

We just don't know for sure. We are speculating that a Was-produced album post-S&S would have been dramatically different than the 95 sessions. Maybe Carl wasn't happy with the state of the sessions as they were in late 95 and simply wanted to not rush that process, and Brian and Was' production of same (feeling they sounded not complete or not commercial enough at that time) and agreed to do S&S first as a group "warm up" to see how things went.  Of course, as is usual, things then fell apart. Maybe, on the other hand, Carl in fact hated the Wilson-Paley material and never had any intention at all of completing them.  I have heard things, and I have spoken to people but I was not in the room...

[southbay]

I've also heard from multiple sources that Carl thought Brian's material was very poor. I've got nothing but love for Carl, but he was totally wrong about this in my opinion. As Wirestone points out, the Beckley/Lamm/Wilson project was the type of sound he favored at the time or at least thought had some kind of commercial potential. That album is mediocre at best but worth it to hear "I Wish For You".

A few thoughts on this...

1. I've never heard that Carl thought the material was "very poor". Not up to Brian's standards or potential maybe;
2. We don't know that Carl thought the material on B-L-W was complete or up to releasing as he never released it;
3. Don't think that Carl ever confused his own writing and production abilities with those of Brian.

[GhostyTMRS]

1. I've heard everything from "very poor", "weak" and "didn't think it had potential".
2. You've got me there. I don't know the story behind that record other than it came out posthumously.
3. Perhaps not, but he second guessed Brian an awful lot beginning with "15 Big Ones".

[southbay]

That's true on your 3d point. 

[Wirestone]

At least one song on BLW was released during Carl's life.

And I think that record is interesting because it suggests where Carl's head was at, musically, in the 90s. I mean, Brian didn't finish most of the Paley/Was sessions songs either, but they give us an indication of what he was trying to do at the time.

The BLW tunes are pretty consistent with Carl's MOR songwriting tendencies on LA and BB85, too, so I doubt he was planning on taking those songs in some radically different direction.

[c-man]

Couple of points:

(1) The Baywatch Nights/"Dancin' The Night Away" session occurred several months before the "Soul Searchin'"/"Still A Mystery" sessions.
(2) I have it on good authority that the "Soul Searchin'" track as produced by Was pales in comparison to the Wilson-Paley track (by "track", I mean the instruments). Carl reportedly never heard the superior Brian-Andy produced backing track, just the far weaker (according to sources who've heard it) Was remake. Had he heard it in all its glory, with the full BBs vocal performance as heard on MIC, he just might have thought differently. I can see his point on "Still A Mystery", though. Personally I think it's OK, but can't really see Carl being knocked out by it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Gigs & sessions 1995 on 10452 gives a fairly accurate timeline for the Baywatch/Was/early Stars & Stripes sessions. Footnotes need a little work mind.

[Rocker]

Has anyone seen the video material from the "Baywatch nights/Dancin' the night away"-session(s)? And were some of the other sessions - apart from Stars&Stripes of course - of that timeframe filmed?

[Smilin Ed H]

Let us not forget that Was produced the shittiest Dylan album eva!

[c-man]

Let us not forget that Was produced the shittiest Dylan album eva!

That one's been sitting in a stack of unopened/unplayed Dylan CDs for close to a decade now. Thanks to you, I think I'll finally get it out and play it! Gotta hear it now!