Mike Love on Love & Mercy: ‘Poor Brian, He’s Had a Rough, Rough Time’

[HeyJude]

In every possible interview Mike mentions:
1. Brian's drug-taking
2. His own lyrical input
3. Time in India with Maharishi and the Bealtes

In every possible thread some posters mention:
1. Mike ending the C50
2. Mike's lack of support for Smile
3. Wrinkles, or Kokomo, or the RRHF speech


Obsessions and fixations do that to you.

Do people really still make fun of “Wrinkles” regularly on this board? Or “Kokomo”?

I also think people long ago stopped pegging Mike as the sole/main source of the demise of “Smile.”

The R&R HOF speech should rightly be criticized (though folks like me largely find it hugely amusing more than a critical point against Mike), but again, I don’t see it being brought up much.

The only one of those topics that still regularly gets batted around is C50, and again, it’s pretty legit complaint, and it’s still a relatively contemporary issue, and the most controversial and yet on-topic thing that has gone down with the band as a whole in eons.

I’d also say that what fans discuss should not be compared to what Mike says in interviews. We’re fans of his band, and this discussion board is for such discussions. We react to what the band and its members do and say.

The venue, motivation, and standard to which comments should be held are *entirely* different when we’re talking about Mike versus fans/posters.

[CenturyDeprived]

Cam, what would you think of Evan Landy saying Gene "probably" went too far?
How about if Alexandra Morgan also said Gene "probably" went too far?
And lastly, what if Murry said that he (Murry) himself "probably" went too far in disciplining his kids?

Does the word "probably" strike you as perhaps a bit soft and inappropriate in any of those cases?

I would think they thought he went too far, especially if they had already gone public saying he went too far.

And you would not think that the term "probably" was objectionable, even for Murry talking about beating his kids?

Look CD, I am talking about this interview, I guess I didn't read your hypotheticals closely enough. Sorry.

When Mike says "probably" I think he means he thinks it happened, he thought it happened so much that he was publically denouncing it and still is denouncing it.

Also, to the no one who agrees with or reads my posts, since when is thinking a point of view is interesting or worth hearing an endorsement or agreement with that point of view? Especially if one has denounced the subject of that point of view.

Cam: I am just trying to get an understanding of how anybody could find the term "probably" ok to use in context of talking about unarguably despicable actions.

For the record... I honestly, truthfully, do NOT think that Mike only "probably" thinks Landy went too far. I think 2015 Mike absolutely thinks Landy went too far.

But for whatever reason, be it politics, trying to throw a monkey wrench into the significant praise the film has been getting, or possible onset of senility (hey, it sadly happened to Glen Campbell - I would hate to think it could happen to another contemporary within his age bracket, but it's possible)... regardless of the reason why Mike changed his tone on Landy from his 1980s POV (where Mike seemed to have rage and tears, which I didn't/don't doubt for a moment were truthful) to a current 2015 lighter stance of using the term "probably"... he did in fact change that term.  

Just because he previously talked about Landy in a more stern way, he DID change the way he talked about him in 2015. THAT HAPPENED. And I'm not even trying to get into a discussion with you about why that happened. I'm trying to say that the word is not right to use.

The fact is that it's grossly inappropriate for a term to be used that could in any way, shape or form allow for interpretation that can even slightly excuse actions such as changing Brian's will.

-----------

I will ask you again:

if Murry Wilson were to have publicly said that his beating his sons was "probably" going too far (even if you believed that Murry actually had developed true regret, and really honestly inside believed 100% that he went too far, but for some reason only said the term "probably")... could you agree that in a circumstance such as that, that the term "probably" would not be an idea term to use?

Can you let me know what you think of that specific question?

Nope.

You've just officially outed yourself as a troll.

Absolutely amazing.

Boy that really stings.  (yawn)

Not trying to "sting". Why are you saying "nope" to a question? Because you know there's no way you can answer it and still have any semblance of a "point".

What reason can you spin for you not answering it? Oh, I know. Because it's not relevant what we are talking about, so you have decided you need not answer it, and that's that. You have no point, and EVERYONE knows it. At this point you are just messing with us, and that's the definition of a troll.

[Cam Mott]

Billy Castillo! Born to opulence in a Philadelphia gone by, when the waltz was king and young ladies and gentlemen of substance attended grand balls, often disguised as karaoke enthusiasts, Billy spent his school days starring both on the lacrosse field and in theater, once in the lead role of “The Music Man.”

Life has for us, of course, it’s peculiar turns, and Billy, embittered after receiving a B- in advanced calculus – he felt, probably correctly, that he had earned a B – decided to leave his posh boarding school to make a living as a stonemason. Here he learned that “probably” doesn’t cut it.

“Have you correctly set the stone, William the Rock Man?” a weary foreman asked him. “Probably,” Billy said, and he was relieved of his duties so quickly he wasn’t able to enjoy the salami and blue cheese sandwich in his lunch bag. And it was on pumpernickel!

Billy joined the surf circuit where he taught a young Dennis Wilson to “shoot the curl” and to do it again and again – an event that no doubt informed Mike Love’s brilliant lyrics to the song “Do it Again.” Billy is thought to be the inspiration for the timeless “Denny’s Drums.” In fact, there is some evidence that a portion of the drum solo was played on Billy’s chest. But he has been cagey when asked about this.

Billy and my third wife, whose name escapes me, were an item for a time, though most likely only in my fevered imagination. Paranoia is a sad and difficult condition.

As Evan Landy recounted in the recent biography of his father – “Only His Hair Was Unfair” – Billy confronted the corrupt doctor in Brown Derby, demanding that he reinstate the weekly McDonald’s Quarter Pounder to Brian Wilson’s sparse diet – a bold move that Carl Wilson immortalized in “What More Can I Say?” the opener of the youngest Wilson’s second album.

But Carl’s solo ambitions worried Mike Love who blamed Billy, at least in part. Carl tried to exonerate Billy in the song “If I Could Talk to Love,” but these were pressurized, suspicious times, and Billy was fully forgiven only when Mike happened upon him just as he was selecting “Looking Back with Love” from a cutout bin in a now-closed Target.

Billy began managing Love’s career and was largely responsible for the cut “Cam Mott” on the still unreleased “Country Love” album. “A man who sells trousers/philosopher, carouser/he’s everything that you’re not/the legend, the winner, the part-time muleskinner/the outwardly inwardly thinker of thoughts/the prophet and poet Cam Mott.”

Billy’s dalliance with Kathy Gifford provided fodder for the tabloids and prompted Love to sever their professional relationship. Love felt the publicity could harm the band’s commercial prospects. Still it was Billy to whom Love confided, “Man I could really go for a cold Jax beer.”

One can imagine Billy’s surprise when he and Cam Mott showed up at the same Beach Boys message board. The two agreed to hide their past relationship as they felt that it would cause too many threads to be devoted to their fascinating stories.

Consider their shock when Hank Briarstem – the man they both dismissed as “no more important to the Beach Boys’ career than ‘Santa’s Goin’ to Kokomo’” – found his way through a haze of booze to this gathering! The jig, as they say, was up!

Now I must have a nap.

Why I oughta string you up by the Beer Nuts.  Gawd dang it Hank, we are trying to have serious Mike opinionating of extinction event level importance.   

[Cam Mott]

Cam, what would you think of Evan Landy saying Gene "probably" went too far?
How about if Alexandra Morgan also said Gene "probably" went too far?
And lastly, what if Murry said that he (Murry) himself "probably" went too far in disciplining his kids?

Does the word "probably" strike you as perhaps a bit soft and inappropriate in any of those cases?

I would think they thought he went too far, especially if they had already gone public saying he went too far.

And you would not think that the term "probably" was objectionable, even for Murry talking about beating his kids?

Look CD, I am talking about this interview, I guess I didn't read your hypotheticals closely enough. Sorry.

When Mike says "probably" I think he means he thinks it happened, he thought it happened so much that he was publically denouncing it and still is denouncing it.

Also, to the no one who agrees with or reads my posts, since when is thinking a point of view is interesting or worth hearing an endorsement or agreement with that point of view? Especially if one has denounced the subject of that point of view.

Cam: I am just trying to get an understanding of how anybody could find the term "probably" ok to use in context of talking about unarguably despicable actions.

For the record... I honestly, truthfully, do NOT think that Mike only "probably" thinks Landy went too far. I think 2015 Mike absolutely thinks Landy went too far.

But for whatever reason, be it politics, trying to throw a monkey wrench into the significant praise the film has been getting, or possible onset of senility (hey, it sadly happened to Glen Campbell - I would hate to think it could happen to another contemporary within his age bracket, but it's possible)... regardless of the reason why Mike changed his tone on Landy from his 1980s POV (where Mike seemed to have rage and tears, which I didn't/don't doubt for a moment were truthful) to a current 2015 lighter stance of using the term "probably"... he did in fact change that term.  

Just because he previously talked about Landy in a more stern way, he DID change the way he talked about him in 2015. THAT HAPPENED. And I'm not even trying to get into a discussion with you about why that happened. I'm trying to say that the word is not right to use.

The fact is that it's grossly inappropriate for a term to be used that could in any way, shape or form allow for interpretation that can even slightly excuse actions such as changing Brian's will.

-----------

I will ask you again:

if Murry Wilson were to have publicly said that his beating his sons was "probably" going too far (even if you believed that Murry actually had developed true regret, and really honestly inside believed 100% that he went too far, but for some reason only said the term "probably")... could you agree that in a circumstance such as that, that the term "probably" would not be an idea term to use?

Can you let me know what you think of that specific question?

Nope.

You've just officially outed yourself as a troll.

Absolutely amazing.

Boy that really stings.  (yawn)

Not trying to "sting". Why are you saying "nope" to a question? Because you know there's no way you can answer it and still have any semblance of a "point".

What reason can you spin for you not answering it? Oh, I know. Because it's not relevant what we are talking about, so you have decided you need not answer it, and that's that. You have no point, and EVERYONE knows it. At this point you are just messing with us, and that's the definition of a troll.

I stopped listening when you called me a "troll".

[Hank Briarstem]

Did someone offer Beer Nuts? Why yes, I think I shall.

[MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm]

My issue in all of this is a basic one. There have been several posts this past week about Evan Landy, with suggestions that his "perspective" should be considered equally alongside that of Brian's wife, or others who witnessed what went on. I'm kind of amazed to read that, and I might appeal to common sense at some point to look at the source.

On one hand, you cannot equate who was basically a paid employee tasked with keeping an eye on a doctor's patient with one's own spouse or family. No matter how close or personal some might suggest the employee (and doctor's staff in general) may have gotten to their patient (Brian Wilson, obviously), there is still a combination of medical, legal, and ethical guidelines in play as that doctor was paid to treat his patient. Anyone on that staff could have become as close to the patient as they might claim in a personal way, but they were still employees and bound to a certain set of ethical and legal codes of behavior that are strictly monitored and regulated by any number of overseers and legal authorities.

I've said before - the nuclear bomb of an issue that destroys each and every claim made by any Landy associates is the changing of that will. Under even the most forgiving standards, a doctor in this type of employ cannot change a patient's will as was attempted by Landy.

Consider Landy's son and this recent interview that mysteriously appears the very week the film has its premiere. And somewhat less mysteriously, the issue of the will was *never* mentioned in that interview and article. Instead, we get a defense of Dr. Gene Landy from his son. Spot the elephant in the room? It's sitting right there if you want to see it.

This man stood to become one of the benefactors of Brian's will and estate had Melinda Ledbetter and Gloria Ramos not intervened as they did. They needed proof, but did not have the legal authority to act on it - only the immediate family could take it further. And once they were contacted, they did through the legal system.

If anyone can show otherwise, put your cards on the table.

So to see even a mild suggestion that a man's "perspective" who stood to benefit from what most would consider an immoral, unethical, and possibly illegal action of changing a patient's will to write out his own family and replace them with his doctor and his family (and associates)...it absolutely boggles the mind, or at least my mind. It makes no sense.

And to further see that a man's word who was defending such actions in a tabloid interview that appeared out of nowhere and ignoring the key issue that prevented him and his family from taking another man's estate and life's work is being *referenced* as something to consider in even a slight way...

It's maddening. And the reactions of fans and observers and anyone who knows the story beyond a tabloid article would seem to be expected, and not unjustified. Unless there are those who would place on an equal footing the words of a paid employee who was witness to all kinds of abuses of power and authority versus a man's own wife of several decades.

And it may suggest an extreme form of scraping the bottom of the barrel to hold up something like last week's tabloid interview as worthy of consideration.

It's worthy of scorn and dismissal.

Great point IMO; well said.
  

[Komera]

Hope you guys have lots of Mountain Dew...the threads on here will go on far longer than a World of Warcraft raid.

Not according to the guild I'm in.
Pug healer.  Healer doesn't even meet minimum for Highmaul Normal.  Healer quits after first boss.  Pug second healer.  Healer does even WORSE.  Healer quits after second boss.  Raid leader calls quits.

[Douchepool]

Hope you guys have lots of Mountain Dew...the threads on here will go on far longer than a World of Warcraft raid.

Not according to the guild I'm in.
Pug healer.  Healer doesn't even meet minimum for Highmaul Normal.  Healer quits after first boss.  Pug second healer.  Healer does even WORSE.  Healer quits after second boss.  Raid leader calls quits.

Your guild must lack the proper amount of neckbeard required to play WoW!

[Cam Mott]

Did someone offer Beer Nuts? Why yes, I think I shall.

I'm buying! (behind my hand: because they're free: wink)

I think I still owe you for that "Arms" Akimbo album, "Not With My Wife You Don't",  that you sent me by AirMail that Winter of '01.

[Hank Briarstem]

I wondered where that thing got off to. Ah well, no great concern. I have been ensconced in the magnificent works of Slim Whitman and can hardly listen to anything else. Did I mention that I was the inspiration for Denny's Drums? It would be nice if the film had acknowledged that, but I am persona non grata since the falling out with Alan Boyd.

[Lee Marshall]

These Mike debates... ...No one wins.  They're the same every time.  The points well made are lost in thr ooze of the minutia.  And next week we'll come up with a brand-spankin'-new way to do it all again.  AND we insult people we'd probably enjoy spending REAL time with just to reiterate the same meaningless points falling on the same deaf ears and tired eyes week in and week out.

Cam's a good guy and most everyone here knows it.  Mike needs guidance when it comes to PR.  Duh!!!  Brian doesn't have a mean bone in his body.  Surprise!!!  We have twice as many chances as might be the norm this summer to catch some great songs performed LIVE by people who know how to do it better than ANYONE ELSE in the world.

I'd say we're well off...although perhaps a little childish from time to time.  So it goes.

[Mike's a dink. ]

See what I mean?

[Well he is. ]

[Komera]

Hope you guys have lots of Mountain Dew...the threads on here will go on far longer than a World of Warcraft raid.

Not according to the guild I'm in.
Pug healer.  Healer doesn't even meet minimum for Highmaul Normal.  Healer quits after first boss.  Pug second healer.  Healer does even WORSE.  Healer quits after second boss.  Raid leader calls quits.

Your guild must lack the proper amount of neckbeard required to play WoW!

A very good possibility, given a full third of the raid shaves their legs instead of their faces.

[Komera]

[Mike's a dink. ]

Nah, I'm still going to go with stubborn old man with a malfunctioning brain to mouth filter.

[Douchepool]

Hope you guys have lots of Mountain Dew...the threads on here will go on far longer than a World of Warcraft raid.

Not according to the guild I'm in.
Pug healer.  Healer doesn't even meet minimum for Highmaul Normal.  Healer quits after first boss.  Pug second healer.  Healer does even WORSE.  Healer quits after second boss.  Raid leader calls quits.

Your guild must lack the proper amount of neckbeard required to play WoW!

A very good possibility, given a full third of the raid shaves their legs instead of their faces.

So they're metrosexual neckbeards!

[CenturyDeprived]

These Mike debates... ...No one wins.  They're the same every time.  
 

Yeah, they're the same every time because when a point is made, the same people just stop responding to questions, instead of admitting that a point is made.

You will RARELY see that from the other side. And there's a reason for that. And if someone tried to pull that move on the supposed "anti-Mike" side, I myself would call that out as ridiculous. It's not about what "side" one is on. 

In any type of debate, it's the most ridiculous, ham-fisted maneuver to just say "nope" and refuse to answer a question, and to do this repeatedly. I can't imagine anyone winning an actual proper, moderated debate if they used this type of hollow tactic with any regularity. A politician trying this maneuver would be laughed out of town. It's truly the most chickensh*t move one can make in a debate.

Would anyone on this board, regardless of political stance on various Mike subjects, actually vote for or have any respect for a politician who repeatedly refused to answer questions in a debate?  You'd know clear as day that they were avoiding something.

[John Malone]

Billy Castillo! Born to opulence in a Philadelphia gone by, when the waltz was king and young ladies and gentlemen of substance attended grand balls, often disguised as karaoke enthusiasts, Billy spent his school days starring both on the lacrosse field and in theater, once in the lead role of “The Music Man.”

Life has for us, of course, it’s peculiar turns, and Billy, embittered after receiving a B- in advanced calculus – he felt, probably correctly, that he had earned a B – decided to leave his posh boarding school to make a living as a stonemason. Here he learned that “probably” doesn’t cut it.

“Have you correctly set the stone, William the Rock Man?” a weary foreman asked him. “Probably,” Billy said, and he was relieved of his duties so quickly he wasn’t able to enjoy the salami and blue cheese sandwich in his lunch bag. And it was on pumpernickel!

Billy joined the surf circuit where he taught a young Dennis Wilson to “shoot the curl” and to do it again and again – an event that no doubt informed Mike Love’s brilliant lyrics to the song “Do it Again.” Billy is thought to be the inspiration for the timeless “Denny’s Drums.” In fact, there is some evidence that a portion of the drum solo was played on Billy’s chest. But he has been cagey when asked about this.

Billy and my third wife, whose name escapes me, were an item for a time, though most likely only in my fevered imagination. Paranoia is a sad and difficult condition.

As Evan Landy recounted in the recent biography of his father – “Only His Hair Was Unfair” – Billy confronted the corrupt doctor in Brown Derby, demanding that he reinstate the weekly McDonald’s Quarter Pounder to Brian Wilson’s sparse diet – a bold move that Carl Wilson immortalized in “What More Can I Say?” the opener of the youngest Wilson’s second album.

But Carl’s solo ambitions worried Mike Love who blamed Billy, at least in part. Carl tried to exonerate Billy in the song “If I Could Talk to Love,” but these were pressurized, suspicious times, and Billy was fully forgiven only when Mike happened upon him just as he was selecting “Looking Back with Love” from a cutout bin in a now-closed Target.

Billy began managing Love’s career and was largely responsible for the cut “Cam Mott” on the still unreleased “Country Love” album. “A man who sells trousers/philosopher, carouser/he’s everything that you’re not/the legend, the winner, the part-time muleskinner/the outwardly inwardly thinker of thoughts/the prophet and poet Cam Mott.”

Billy’s dalliance with Kathy Gifford provided fodder for the tabloids and prompted Love to sever their professional relationship. Love felt the publicity could harm the band’s commercial prospects. Still it was Billy to whom Love confided, “Man I could really go for a cold Jax beer.”

One can imagine Billy’s surprise when he and Cam Mott showed up at the same Beach Boys message board. The two agreed to hide their past relationship as they felt that it would cause too many threads to be devoted to their fascinating stories.

Consider their shock when Hank Briarstem – the man they both dismissed as “no more important to the Beach Boys’ career than ‘Santa’s Goin’ to Kokomo’” – found his way through a haze of booze to this gathering! The jig, as they say, was up!

Now I must have a nap.

Please keep these posts coming!

[Komera]

Hope you guys have lots of Mountain Dew...the threads on here will go on far longer than a World of Warcraft raid.

Not according to the guild I'm in.
Pug healer.  Healer doesn't even meet minimum for Highmaul Normal.  Healer quits after first boss.  Pug second healer.  Healer does even WORSE.  Healer quits after second boss.  Raid leader calls quits.

Your guild must lack the proper amount of neckbeard required to play WoW!

A very good possibility, given a full third of the raid shaves their legs instead of their faces.

So they're metrosexual neckbeards!

How'd you find out?  You must have mind gangsters!      

[Douchepool]

Hope you guys have lots of Mountain Dew...the threads on here will go on far longer than a World of Warcraft raid.

Not according to the guild I'm in.
Pug healer.  Healer doesn't even meet minimum for Highmaul Normal.  Healer quits after first boss.  Pug second healer.  Healer does even WORSE.  Healer quits after second boss.  Raid leader calls quits.

Your guild must lack the proper amount of neckbeard required to play WoW!

A very good possibility, given a full third of the raid shaves their legs instead of their faces.

So they're metrosexual neckbeards!

How'd you find out?  You must have mind gangsters!      

I never should have f***ed with the formula...

[lastofmykind]

I think a lot of you are missing the point.  I mean we kind of have an idea of how bad of a state Brian was before Landy initiated the 24/7 intensive program.  Obviously I don't think its up for debate about the methodology of Landy's "program", clearly it was unethical and dehumanizing to Brian.  Having experience with family members who have had mental issues stemming from questionable upbringings and addictive behaviors (somewhat similar to Brian's past) I would say some people with mental illness do need 24 hour care to get back on their feet.  What happened to Brian because of Landy, was inhuman and criminal, but I would argue that Landy does have a hand in the reason of why we all get to celebrate Brian and his music.  

The point I think mike was trying to make was, Brian needed help, Landy as terrible as he was, played a hand in helping to keep Brian alive to this day.
 

[Empire Of Love]

I think a lot of you are missing the point.  I mean we kind of have an idea of how bad of a state Brian was before Landy initiated the 24/7 intensive program.  Obviously I don't think its up for debate about the methodology of Landy's "program", clearly it was unethical and dehumanizing to Brian.  Having experience with family members who have had mental issues stemming from questionable upbringings and addictive behaviors (somewhat similar to Brian's past) I would say some people with mental illness do need 24 hour care to get back on their feet.  What happened to Brian because of Landy, was inhuman and criminal, but I would argue that Landy does have a hand in the reason of why we all get to celebrate Brian and his music.  

The point I think mike was trying to make was, Brian needed help, Landy as terrible as he was, played a hand in helping to keep Brian alive to this day.
 

Except that is not the point at all.  In the 80s/90s, as Cam pointed out, Mike spoke definitively about Landy, saying, at least, that what he was doing was disgusting.  He has downgraded this definitive language to probability, which, though Cam refuses to admit, is, by definition, less than certainty.  Further, Mike makes all of his "hell yeah," "yes", and "probably" comments... And then says, "But guess what? He also saved his life".  No one is disagreeing with what comes after the "but", the fact the Landy saved his life, it's what went what before the but that is repulsive - leaving the door open for less than certainty in regards to what Landy did.  Probability, no matter how close it comes to certainty, is not in fact certainty, Cam Mott's stubborn insistence to the contrary not withstanding.  Mike has modified his stance for one reason or another and has also decided to lend credence to Evan Landy's opinion.  That is what is at issue, not whether or not Landy helped save Brian's life.

EoL

[Cam Mott]

I think a lot of you are missing the point.  I mean we kind of have an idea of how bad of a state Brian was before Landy initiated the 24/7 intensive program.  Obviously I don't think its up for debate about the methodology of Landy's "program", clearly it was unethical and dehumanizing to Brian.  Having experience with family members who have had mental issues stemming from questionable upbringings and addictive behaviors (somewhat similar to Brian's past) I would say some people with mental illness do need 24 hour care to get back on their feet.  What happened to Brian because of Landy, was inhuman and criminal, but I would argue that Landy does have a hand in the reason of why we all get to celebrate Brian and his music.  

The point I think mike was trying to make was, Brian needed help, Landy as terrible as he was, played a hand in helping to keep Brian alive to this day.
 

Except that is not the point at all.  In the 80s/90s, as Cam pointed out, Mike spoke definitively about Landy, saying, at least, that what he was doing was disgusting.  He has downgraded this definitive language to probability, which, though Cam refuses to admit, is, by definition, less than certainty.  Further, Mike makes all of his "hell yeah," "yes", and "probably" comments... And then says, "But guess what? He also saved his life".  No one is disagreeing with what comes after the "but", the fact the Landy saved his life, it's what went what before the but that is repulsive - leaving the door open for less than certainty in regards to what Landy did.  Probability, no matter how close it comes to certainty, is not in fact certainty, Cam Mott's stubborn insistence to the contrary not withstanding.  Mike has modified his stance for one reason or another and has also decided to lend credence to Evan Landy's opinion.  That is what is at issue, not whether or not Landy helped save Brian's life.

EoL

I could just turn these last points around and name check you as stubborn and contrary as the only thing like evidence in your post is the first part, which exonerates Mike, and the last part is just your opinion which does not square with your first point. So how about everybody stop getting so snooty and cut out the name checking and the snotty tone? Just make your point and back it up if you have anything.

[Robbie Mac]

I think a lot of you are missing the point.  I mean we kind of have an idea of how bad of a state Brian was before Landy initiated the 24/7 intensive program.  Obviously I don't think its up for debate about the methodology of Landy's "program", clearly it was unethical and dehumanizing to Brian.  Having experience with family members who have had mental issues stemming from questionable upbringings and addictive behaviors (somewhat similar to Brian's past) I would say some people with mental illness do need 24 hour care to get back on their feet.  What happened to Brian because of Landy, was inhuman and criminal, but I would argue that Landy does have a hand in the reason of why we all get to celebrate Brian and his music.  

The point I think mike was trying to make was, Brian needed help, Landy as terrible as he was, played a hand in helping to keep Brian alive to this day.
 

Except that is not the point at all.  In the 80s/90s, as Cam pointed out, Mike spoke definitively about Landy, saying, at least, that what he was doing was disgusting.  He has downgraded this definitive language to probability, which, though Cam refuses to admit, is, by definition, less than certainty.  Further, Mike makes all of his "hell yeah," "yes", and "probably" comments... And then says, "But guess what? He also saved his life".  No one is disagreeing with what comes after the "but", the fact the Landy saved his life, it's what went what before the but that is repulsive - leaving the door open for less than certainty in regards to what Landy did.  Probability, no matter how close it comes to certainty, is not in fact certainty, Cam Mott's stubborn insistence to the contrary not withstanding.  Mike has modified his stance for one reason or another and has also decided to lend credence to Evan Landy's opinion.  That is what is at issue, not whether or not Landy helped save Brian's life.

EoL

I could just turn these last points around and name check you as stubborn and contrary as the only thing like evidence in your post is the first part, which exonerates Mike, and the last part is just your opinion which does not square with your first point. So how about everybody stop getting so snooty and cut out the name checking and the snotty tone? Just make your point and back it up if you have anything.

They have been.

[Empire Of Love]

I think a lot of you are missing the point.  I mean we kind of have an idea of how bad of a state Brian was before Landy initiated the 24/7 intensive program.  Obviously I don't think its up for debate about the methodology of Landy's "program", clearly it was unethical and dehumanizing to Brian.  Having experience with family members who have had mental issues stemming from questionable upbringings and addictive behaviors (somewhat similar to Brian's past) I would say some people with mental illness do need 24 hour care to get back on their feet.  What happened to Brian because of Landy, was inhuman and criminal, but I would argue that Landy does have a hand in the reason of why we all get to celebrate Brian and his music.  

The point I think mike was trying to make was, Brian needed help, Landy as terrible as he was, played a hand in helping to keep Brian alive to this day.
 

Except that is not the point at all.  In the 80s/90s, as Cam pointed out, Mike spoke definitively about Landy, saying, at least, that what he was doing was disgusting.  He has downgraded this definitive language to probability, which, though Cam refuses to admit, is, by definition, less than certainty.  Further, Mike makes all of his "hell yeah," "yes", and "probably" comments... And then says, "But guess what? He also saved his life".  No one is disagreeing with what comes after the "but", the fact the Landy saved his life, it's what went what before the but that is repulsive - leaving the door open for less than certainty in regards to what Landy did.  Probability, no matter how close it comes to certainty, is not in fact certainty, Cam Mott's stubborn insistence to the contrary not withstanding.  Mike has modified his stance for one reason or another and has also decided to lend credence to Evan Landy's opinion.  That is what is at issue, not whether or not Landy helped save Brian's life.

EoL

I could just turn these last points around and name check you as stubborn and contrary as the only thing like evidence in your post is the first part, which exonerates Mike, and the last part is just your opinion which does not square with your first point. So how about everybody stop getting so snooty and cut out the name checking and the snotty tone? Just make your point and back it up if you have anything.

Probable:
1. likely to occur or prove true:
He foresaw a probable business loss. He is the probable writer of the article.
2. having more evidence for than against, or evidence that inclines the mind to belief but leaves some room for doubt.

Certain:
1. free from doubt or reservation; confident; sure:
I am certain he will come.
2. destined; sure to happen (usually followed by an infinitive):
He is certain to be there.

Mike used to speak with certainty, "it is disgusting", not probability, it *is* disgusting.  Now he speaks in terms that mean less than certainty, "probably".

EoL

[Cam Mott]

Billie: "And, that, my friends, is why we're not getting anywhere. It's like describing a rainbow to Stevie Wonder...not going to happen no matter how hard we try. I don't know how else to spell it out aside from getting out the flash cards and sock puppets. My God, man...all the years I've known you on all the various BB boards. ...you used to be one of the most intelligent, well-spoken posters on any of the boards. Seriously...what the hell happened to you?  I'm seriously at a loss here."

I was going to get back to you.

I remember what you used to be like too. My opinions are no better or worse than yours or anyone else's on board. I don't agree with you and your opinions and ways sometimes either. I've also never called you or anyone out like that.

[Cam Mott]

I think a lot of you are missing the point.  I mean we kind of have an idea of how bad of a state Brian was before Landy initiated the 24/7 intensive program.  Obviously I don't think its up for debate about the methodology of Landy's "program", clearly it was unethical and dehumanizing to Brian.  Having experience with family members who have had mental issues stemming from questionable upbringings and addictive behaviors (somewhat similar to Brian's past) I would say some people with mental illness do need 24 hour care to get back on their feet.  What happened to Brian because of Landy, was inhuman and criminal, but I would argue that Landy does have a hand in the reason of why we all get to celebrate Brian and his music.  

The point I think mike was trying to make was, Brian needed help, Landy as terrible as he was, played a hand in helping to keep Brian alive to this day.
 

Except that is not the point at all.  In the 80s/90s, as Cam pointed out, Mike spoke definitively about Landy, saying, at least, that what he was doing was disgusting.  He has downgraded this definitive language to probability, which, though Cam refuses to admit, is, by definition, less than certainty.  Further, Mike makes all of his "hell yeah," "yes", and "probably" comments... And then says, "But guess what? He also saved his life".  No one is disagreeing with what comes after the "but", the fact the Landy saved his life, it's what went what before the but that is repulsive - leaving the door open for less than certainty in regards to what Landy did.  Probability, no matter how close it comes to certainty, is not in fact certainty, Cam Mott's stubborn insistence to the contrary not withstanding.  Mike has modified his stance for one reason or another and has also decided to lend credence to Evan Landy's opinion.  That is what is at issue, not whether or not Landy helped save Brian's life.

EoL

I could just turn these last points around and name check you as stubborn and contrary as the only thing like evidence in your post is the first part, which exonerates Mike, and the last part is just your opinion which does not square with your first point. So how about everybody stop getting so snooty and cut out the name checking and the snotty tone? Just make your point and back it up if you have anything.

Probable:
1. likely to occur or prove true:
He foresaw a probable business loss. He is the probable writer of the article.
2. having more evidence for than against, or evidence that inclines the mind to belief but leaves some room for doubt.

Certain:
1. free from doubt or reservation; confident; sure:
I am certain he will come.
2. destined; sure to happen (usually followed by an infinitive):
He is certain to be there.

Mike used to speak with certainty, "it is disgusting", not probability, it *is* disgusting.  Now he speaks in terms that mean less than certainty, "probably".

EoL

Yes, he still denounces Landy.