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Author Topic: So Tough question:  (Read 15493 times)
kookadams
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« on: June 04, 2015, 07:19:49 PM »

Would Carl and the passions-So tough be considered an alias/pseudonym or side project album ? Esp since it sounds nothing like the BBs and no album before or after.. the double LP with Pet Sounds doesn't even say beach boys on it..
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drbeachboy
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2015, 08:04:54 PM »

Would Carl and the passions-So tough be considered an alias/pseudonym or side project album ? Esp since it sounds nothing like the BBs and no album before or after.. the double LP with Pet Sounds doesn't even say beach boys on it..
As far as I ever seen it was always a Beach Boys product. On the first day of release, it was in the bin under The Beach Boys. So record stores knew it was a Beach Boys album.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
Lee Marshall
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2015, 08:40:36 PM »

Carl and the Passions was either a group Carl dabbled with prior to the Beach Boys OR a name the Beach Boys considered before someone else named them instead.   Beach Boys somehow worked better.  Kept these guys young up until oh...say...NOW.   Either way...It is the Beach Boys.  Same lineup as is the case with Holland and with that fantastic 1973 live 2 record set.  It ain't no 'side' project.  Never was.

Too bad that lineup didn't last a whole lot longer.  [not to mention the forward thinking.]
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2015, 09:29:41 PM »

CATP sounds like Holland and "In Concert."
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adamghost
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2015, 09:47:05 PM »

I was just thinking about this the other day - it actually was a pretty audacious move - subtitling the album as a fictitious band name ("So Tough" is the name of the album per se) a la Sgt. Pepper's, that no one has EVER talked about or questioned the reasoning of.  Someone somewhere must have come up with the idea (Jack Reiley?).  Carl certainly was trying to reinvent the band at that point with the new members.  It certainly had to have been a factor.
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Eric Aniversario
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2015, 01:13:31 AM »

I was just thinking about this the other day - it actually was a pretty audacious move - subtitling the album as a fictitious band name ("So Tough" is the name of the album per se) a la Sgt. Pepper's, that no one has EVER talked about or questioned the reasoning of.  Someone somewhere must have come up with the idea (Jack Reiley?).  Carl certainly was trying to reinvent the band at that point with the new members.  It certainly had to have been a factor.

Even though most fans would be in the know, others might not have been. I imagine that they lost a few sales just by the Beach Boys name not spreading on the anywhere.
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Lee Marshall
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2015, 04:33:04 AM »

But Eric...Didn't all of the copies originally released come with the added bonus of the second album [Pet Sounds] and wasn't it HIGHLY promoted in the trades that THIS was, in fact, the NEW Beach Boys album with the bonus 12 incher?  It also happened that 'You Need a Mess Of Help to Stand Alone' and 'Cuddle Up' were released at the same time as the new Beach Boys single...A side/B side.

I was living up in Northern Ontario that summer working for Allied Van Lines as a summer job while taking the break from college.  Even up there in North Bay I knew what was going on. Cool
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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
JK
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2015, 05:37:52 AM »

C&TP reminds me of the Mothers of Invention album Cruising with Ruben & the Jets, which actually spawned a band of that name, led by one Ruben Guevara...
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Joel Goldenberg
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2015, 06:28:19 AM »

Anyone know how the title "So Tough" came about. Sounds like a Sha-Na-Na type of thing.
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KDS
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2015, 06:38:43 AM »

I think Lee is right that Carl and the Passions was one of the original possible ideas for the name of the group before they decided on The Pendletones.   

I do agree that, at least for the first two or three songs, the album doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys.  I think Marcella is the first BB sounding track on that album. 

I think Blondie and Ricky blended more with the group on Holland. 
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drbeachboy
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2015, 06:46:20 AM »

I think Lee is right that Carl and the Passions was one of the original possible ideas for the name of the group before they decided on The Pendletones.  

I do agree that, at least for the first two or three songs, the album doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys.  I think Marcella is the first BB sounding track on that album.  

I think Blondie and Ricky blended more with the group on Holland.  
Really only three songs that have the trademark harmonies; Marcella, All This Is That and Cuddle Up. I guess you could add He Come Down too. Personally, I liked that it was different. I liked that all four early 70's albums sounded different from each other. That they pushed themselves and tried new things to move themselves forward. It was great time to be a fan and see them progress as a band.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2015, 06:48:02 AM »

Since we're talking So Tough, why did the record company think bundling the new album with a six-year-old album was a good idea? That's a head-scratcher to me. Didn't the likely audience for a new album have all the old ones already?

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KDS
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2015, 06:53:12 AM »

I think Lee is right that Carl and the Passions was one of the original possible ideas for the name of the group before they decided on The Pendletones.  

I do agree that, at least for the first two or three songs, the album doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys.  I think Marcella is the first BB sounding track on that album.  

I think Blondie and Ricky blended more with the group on Holland.  
Really only three songs that have the trademark harmonies; Marcella, All This Is That and Cuddle Up. I guess you could add He Come Down too. Personally, I liked that it was different. I liked that all four early 70's albums sounded different from each other. That they pushed themselves and tried new things to move themselves forward. It was great time to be a fan and see them progress as a band.

No doubt.  I agree 100%.  I don't think it's a bad album at all.  It's probably my least favorite of the four from the early 70s.  But still better than each album they released in the late 70s. 

And I should note one of my favorite tracks from this era is Leaving This Town, which sounds nothing like The Beach Boys. 
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drbeachboy
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2015, 07:07:42 AM »

I think Lee is right that Carl and the Passions was one of the original possible ideas for the name of the group before they decided on The Pendletones.   

I do agree that, at least for the first two or three songs, the album doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys.  I think Marcella is the first BB sounding track on that album. 

I think Blondie and Ricky blended more with the group on Holland. 
Really only three songs that have the trademark harmonies; Marcella, All This Is That and Cuddle Up. I guess you could add He Come Down too. Personally, I liked that it was different. I liked that all four early 70's albums sounded different from each other. That they pushed themselves and tried new things to move themselves forward. It was great time to be a fan and see them progress as a band.

No doubt.  I agree 100%.  I don't think it's a bad album at all.  It's probably my least favorite of the four from the early 70s.  But still better than each album they released in the late 70s. 

And I should note one of my favorite tracks from this era is Leaving This Town, which sounds nothing like The Beach Boys. 
My biggest complaint with it is that all of the faster numbers like ...Stand ALone, Marcella and even ...Dear Brother could of used a little faster tempo. All good songs, but they kind of feel constipated, if you know what I mean.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
KDS
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2015, 07:09:06 AM »

I think Lee is right that Carl and the Passions was one of the original possible ideas for the name of the group before they decided on The Pendletones.   

I do agree that, at least for the first two or three songs, the album doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys.  I think Marcella is the first BB sounding track on that album. 

I think Blondie and Ricky blended more with the group on Holland. 
Really only three songs that have the trademark harmonies; Marcella, All This Is That and Cuddle Up. I guess you could add He Come Down too. Personally, I liked that it was different. I liked that all four early 70's albums sounded different from each other. That they pushed themselves and tried new things to move themselves forward. It was great time to be a fan and see them progress as a band.

No doubt.  I agree 100%.  I don't think it's a bad album at all.  It's probably my least favorite of the four from the early 70s.  But still better than each album they released in the late 70s. 

And I should note one of my favorite tracks from this era is Leaving This Town, which sounds nothing like The Beach Boys. 
My biggest complaint with it is that all of the faster numbers like ...Stand ALone, Marcella and even ...Dear Brother could of used a little faster tempo. All good songs, but they kind of feel constipated, if you know what I mean.

I know what you mean.  The live version of Marcella is much better. 

And I like the Brian Wilson and Friends version of Hold On Dear Brother a lot.  Nate Ruess's voice really works well on that one. 
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drbeachboy
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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2015, 07:14:47 AM »

I think Lee is right that Carl and the Passions was one of the original possible ideas for the name of the group before they decided on The Pendletones.   

I do agree that, at least for the first two or three songs, the album doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys.  I think Marcella is the first BB sounding track on that album. 

I think Blondie and Ricky blended more with the group on Holland. 
Really only three songs that have the trademark harmonies; Marcella, All This Is That and Cuddle Up. I guess you could add He Come Down too. Personally, I liked that it was different. I liked that all four early 70's albums sounded different from each other. That they pushed themselves and tried new things to move themselves forward. It was great time to be a fan and see them progress as a band.

No doubt.  I agree 100%.  I don't think it's a bad album at all.  It's probably my least favorite of the four from the early 70s.  But still better than each album they released in the late 70s. 

And I should note one of my favorite tracks from this era is Leaving This Town, which sounds nothing like The Beach Boys. 
My biggest complaint with it is that all of the faster numbers like ...Stand ALone, Marcella and even ...Dear Brother could of used a little faster tempo. All good songs, but they kind of feel constipated, if you know what I mean.

I know what you mean.  The live version of Marcella is much better. 

And I like the Brian Wilson and Friends version of Hold On Dear Brother a lot.  Nate Ruess's voice really works well on that one. 
Absolutely, it was a delight and highlight of the show, for me. It was one of the most energetic songs of the evening.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
kookadams
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2015, 09:24:44 AM »

I think Lee is right that Carl and the Passions was one of the original possible ideas for the name of the group before they decided on The Pendletones.   

I do agree that, at least for the first two or three songs, the album doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys.  I think Marcella is the first BB sounding track on that album. 

I think Blondie and Ricky blended more with the group on Holland. 
Really only three songs that have the trademark harmonies; Marcella, All This Is That and Cuddle Up. I guess you could add He Come Down too. Personally, I liked that it was different. I liked that all four early 70's albums sounded different from each other. That they pushed themselves and tried new things to move themselves forward. It was great time to be a fan and see them progress as a band.

No doubt.  I agree 100%.  I don't think it's a bad album at all.  It's probably my least favorite of the four from the early 70s.  But still better than each album they released in the late 70s. 

And I should note one of my favorite tracks from this era is Leaving This Town, which sounds nothing like The Beach Boys. 
yeah definitely not an important/essential album by any means.
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Mr. Tiger
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2015, 09:39:05 AM »

It makes you wonder if the addition of Blondie and Rikki led to a discussion along those lines... Is this the same group? Maybe they considered the name change ala "Beach", scrapped the idea but kept the title anyway because they liked it.
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KDS
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2015, 10:06:07 AM »

I think Lee is right that Carl and the Passions was one of the original possible ideas for the name of the group before they decided on The Pendletones.   

I do agree that, at least for the first two or three songs, the album doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys.  I think Marcella is the first BB sounding track on that album. 

I think Blondie and Ricky blended more with the group on Holland. 
Really only three songs that have the trademark harmonies; Marcella, All This Is That and Cuddle Up. I guess you could add He Come Down too. Personally, I liked that it was different. I liked that all four early 70's albums sounded different from each other. That they pushed themselves and tried new things to move themselves forward. It was great time to be a fan and see them progress as a band.

No doubt.  I agree 100%.  I don't think it's a bad album at all.  It's probably my least favorite of the four from the early 70s.  But still better than each album they released in the late 70s. 

And I should note one of my favorite tracks from this era is Leaving This Town, which sounds nothing like The Beach Boys. 
yeah definitely not an important/essential album by any means.

Mr. Kook, sometimes I think you're putting us all on. 

I thought you said that all BB albums from Holland and prior were great, and every album after Holland is crap.

 Grin 
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job
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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2015, 10:48:40 AM »

Would Carl and the passions-So tough be considered an alias/pseudonym or side project album ? Esp since it sounds nothing like the BBs and no album before or after.. the double LP with Pet Sounds doesn't even say beach boys on it..

That's not a tough question at all.  Wink  It is not even in the slightest a side project.  And btw it sounds very similar to Holland and somewhat similar to LA.
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drbeachboy
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2015, 11:06:08 AM »

Since we're talking So Tough, why did the record company think bundling the new album with a six-year-old album was a good idea? That's a head-scratcher to me. Didn't the likely audience for a new album have all the old ones already?


That is a stumper, for sure. In hindsight though, it was a blessing. As it turned out, it has been the best mono pressing by either Capitol or Reprise to this day. Some argue that Hoffman's DCC release is best, but I'd beg to differ on that.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2015, 11:13:11 AM »

I think Lee is right that Carl and the Passions was one of the original possible ideas for the name of the group before they decided on The Pendletones.   

I do agree that, at least for the first two or three songs, the album doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys.  I think Marcella is the first BB sounding track on that album. 

I think Blondie and Ricky blended more with the group on Holland. 
Really only three songs that have the trademark harmonies; Marcella, All This Is That and Cuddle Up. I guess you could add He Come Down too. Personally, I liked that it was different. I liked that all four early 70's albums sounded different from each other. That they pushed themselves and tried new things to move themselves forward. It was great time to be a fan and see them progress as a band.

No doubt.  I agree 100%.  I don't think it's a bad album at all.  It's probably my least favorite of the four from the early 70s.  But still better than each album they released in the late 70s. 

And I should note one of my favorite tracks from this era is Leaving This Town, which sounds nothing like The Beach Boys. 
My biggest complaint with it is that all of the faster numbers like ...Stand ALone, Marcella and even ...Dear Brother could of used a little faster tempo. All good songs, but they kind of feel constipated, if you know what I mean.

Maybe the slower tempos were due to the band smoking a bunch of weed, which can lend itself to stony, slower BPMs...
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drbeachboy
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2015, 11:24:49 AM »

I think Lee is right that Carl and the Passions was one of the original possible ideas for the name of the group before they decided on The Pendletones.   

I do agree that, at least for the first two or three songs, the album doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys.  I think Marcella is the first BB sounding track on that album. 

I think Blondie and Ricky blended more with the group on Holland. 
Really only three songs that have the trademark harmonies; Marcella, All This Is That and Cuddle Up. I guess you could add He Come Down too. Personally, I liked that it was different. I liked that all four early 70's albums sounded different from each other. That they pushed themselves and tried new things to move themselves forward. It was great time to be a fan and see them progress as a band.

No doubt.  I agree 100%.  I don't think it's a bad album at all.  It's probably my least favorite of the four from the early 70s.  But still better than each album they released in the late 70s. 

And I should note one of my favorite tracks from this era is Leaving This Town, which sounds nothing like The Beach Boys. 
My biggest complaint with it is that all of the faster numbers like ...Stand ALone, Marcella and even ...Dear Brother could of used a little faster tempo. All good songs, but they kind of feel constipated, if you know what I mean.

Maybe the slower tempos were due to the band smoking a bunch of weed, which can lend itself to stony, slower BPMs...
Yeah, you are probably right.  LOL
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2015, 01:04:38 PM »



Mr. Kook, sometimes I think you're putting us all on. 

I thought you said that all BB albums from Holland and prior were great, and every album after Holland is crap.

 Grin 

There's the rub. He's realised CATP_ST doesn't fit his statement, so he's seeking a way he can explain it away as not a proper Beach Boys album.
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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2015, 01:20:43 PM »

It's also worth pointing out that the respect for CATP is pretty recent.  If you read books and articles about the BBs from the time of its release up into the '80s, it was mostly talked about in critical terms comparable to SUMMER IN PARADISE.  People at the time really reacted badly to the album's shift in sound direction.
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