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Author Topic: If Mike wasn't in the band...  (Read 28217 times)
♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #275 on: May 25, 2015, 10:27:21 AM »

A more interesting discussion might be something along the lines of...what might have happened if Brian and VDP had the collective courage/support to scuttle Mike from the band in 66-67?  Or what might have happened if they had decided to take Smile as a BW solo album and released it under a different label?

Every SMiLE fanatic, and possibly even every Beach Boy fan period, has asked this question at some point. Realistically it never would have happened. Not the way things had already played out. Ignoring his illness and insecurities, the relative "failure" of Pet Sounds and the Caroline No single probably showed Brian that to leave the band would be a commercial mistake. VDP never would have ousted a Beach Boy. He saw them as a family unit and felt guilty for driving a wedge between them with his work. He never would have turned them against each other willingly, and probably would have bowed out on principle if Brian told him he was choosing SMiLE over his cousin. So, it's a nice thought, but realistically it never would have happened, not either scenario you list. And again, it was primarily Brian who called the shots and decided not to go through with it. Mike and the Boys criticisms almost certainly influenced his decision, but ultimately he was the one who lost track of the big picture, lost faith in his creation, and decided to go in a different direction with it. End of story.

Thank you for your post.  What you say makes a ton of sense.  Where I would dare to disagree is "End of story."

haha, fair enough. Not trying to silence dissent or anything, just emphasize how next-to-impossible it would have been for Mike to be kicked out over this, and even if he was it wouldnt make a difference in terms of SMiLE's release. For what its worth, I still think it would have been better off if he DID get kicked out around 68 or 69. By then he had written all he songs worth a damn, and all he was good for from then on was stirring up drama and pushing the band in the wrong direction. But I think the only chance for that to happen is the scenario someone else laid out where Jack Riely fires him.

Disagree there. If you read contemporary interviews, he was very critical of the fans chanting for the oldies, pre-Endless Summer of course. The thing about him trying to get the band back to the old sound (before Endless Summer came out) is revisionist history (and he's perpetrated that myth too)
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« Reply #276 on: May 25, 2015, 10:29:55 AM »

If there was one man to pin the eventual return of a mostly-oldies setlist to the concerts, it's Jim Guercio. He put the seed in Carl and Dennis' heads.
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« Reply #277 on: May 25, 2015, 10:33:25 AM »

^ Yup. The In Concert book had a good deal of info for that time period, and I learned a lot I myself never knew.
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« Reply #278 on: May 25, 2015, 10:36:53 AM »

And the mere thought that anyone would have kicked Michael out of the band at any point in the group's history is laughable to say the very least.
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« Reply #279 on: May 25, 2015, 10:47:24 AM »

If there was one man to pin the eventual return of a mostly-oldies setlist to the concerts, it's Jim Guercio. He put the seed in Carl and Dennis' heads.

Nope, we can't have the artistic, progressive Dennis being blamed for such a thing. Never let the truth get in the way of a good myth, especially when it doesn't fit with one's own preconceptions. It was all Mike, MIKE, MIKE, MIKE DAMMIT!
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« Reply #280 on: May 25, 2015, 10:50:02 AM »

Fellator! Off with his head!
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« Reply #281 on: May 25, 2015, 10:51:20 AM »

MB..
are we a little angry, perhaps? LOL

Just busting your chops...I may be a Brianista  but I believe in 100% historical accuracy at all times
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« Reply #282 on: May 25, 2015, 10:52:57 AM »

And the mere thought that anyone would have kicked Michael out of the band at any point in the group's history is laughable to say the very least.

Would have? Yes, laughable.
Wanted to? No, not quite laughable. More like quite probable.
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« Reply #283 on: May 25, 2015, 10:57:12 AM »

MB..
are we a little angry, perhaps? LOL

Just busting your chops...I may be a Brianista  but I believe in 10p% historical accuracy at all times

I'm always angry Billy. I've tried this TM lark and all I want to do sue people and make a spectacle of myself at award ceremonies. Love and f*cking mercy everyone!
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« Reply #284 on: May 25, 2015, 11:01:05 AM »

A more interesting discussion might be something along the lines of...what might have happened if Brian and VDP had the collective courage/support to scuttle Mike from the band in 66-67?  Or what might have happened if they had decided to take Smile as a BW solo album and released it under a different label?

Every SMiLE fanatic, and possibly even every Beach Boy fan period, has asked this question at some point. Realistically it never would have happened. Not the way things had already played out. Ignoring his illness and insecurities, the relative "failure" of Pet Sounds and the Caroline No single probably showed Brian that to leave the band would be a commercial mistake. VDP never would have ousted a Beach Boy. He saw them as a family unit and felt guilty for driving a wedge between them with his work. He never would have turned them against each other willingly, and probably would have bowed out on principle if Brian told him he was choosing SMiLE over his cousin. So, it's a nice thought, but realistically it never would have happened, not either scenario you list. And again, it was primarily Brian who called the shots and decided not to go through with it. Mike and the Boys criticisms almost certainly influenced his decision, but ultimately he was the one who lost track of the big picture, lost faith in his creation, and decided to go in a different direction with it. End of story.

Thank you for your post.  What you say makes a ton of sense.  Where I would dare to disagree is "End of story."

haha, fair enough. Not trying to silence dissent or anything, just emphasize how next-to-impossible it would have been for Mike to be kicked out over this, and even if he was it wouldnt make a difference in terms of SMiLE's release. For what its worth, I still think it would have been better off if he DID get kicked out around 68 or 69. By then he had written all he songs worth a damn, and all he was good for from then on was stirring up drama and pushing the band in the wrong direction. But I think the only chance for that to happen is the scenario someone else laid out where Jack Riely fires him.

Disagree there. If you read contemporary interviews, he was very critical of the fans chanting for the oldies, pre-Endless Summer of course. The thing about him trying to get the band back to the old sound (before Endless Summer came out) is revisionist history (and he's perpetrated that myth too)

Just because he was critical of people being rude at concerts, doesn't mean he didn't still at heart desire for the band to regress in terms of going back to the old sound, with him being much more of the primary focus of the live shows. I think the truth falls somewhere near the middle. Even if his ultimate desire was to play more and more and more oldies, he was savvy enough to know (at that point) that the band still *needed* to keep up ancontemporary appearance for their popularity and street cred to keep climbing. And while I applaud him and any band member for hushing rude audience members, I don't think that says a ton about his complete and ultimate motivations at the time.
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« Reply #285 on: May 25, 2015, 11:12:54 AM »

Man, the guy just can't win with you can he?
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« Reply #286 on: May 25, 2015, 11:22:44 AM »

Well, I stand corrected it seems.

You could definitely say Dennis was just as guilty for the drama as Mike, but my point was that their personalities clashed and like it or not, Dennis was writing better material in the Seventies so with hindsight he's the horse they should have backed. I think you could make a solid argument that he would have been more under control without someone who grated on him around all the time. But maybe Im wrong.

And the mere thought that anyone would have kicked Michael out of the band at any point in the group's history is laughable to say the very least.

Would have? Yes, laughable.
Wanted to? No, not quite laughable. More like quite probable.

^Exactly. That's what I mean.
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« Reply #287 on: May 25, 2015, 11:28:12 AM »

You're saying Michael made Dennis take drugs?
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« Reply #288 on: May 25, 2015, 11:34:18 AM »

Man, the guy just can't win with you can he?

Not a matter of winning or losing.  I think that Mike had some great talent, some genuinely artistic and forward – thinking impulses, but that his long-standing urge to return to the old ways was always lurking being the surface.
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« Reply #289 on: May 25, 2015, 11:45:04 AM »

I must say I envy your ability to read people's minds.
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« Reply #290 on: May 25, 2015, 11:52:04 AM »

You're overlooking one very important thing, there were more oldies added within the year of Endless Summer's success but the plan was (with Brian back in charge and the band more popular then it had been in years) that there would be many new hits added to the established setlist as they were recorded. The only problem was with the exception of the Rock and Roll Music cover there were no more new hits. The band kept playing a small core of progressive era material for years but by the end of the 70s it became crystal clear that nobody was coming to hear the likes of Feel Flows or All This is That anymore. It was only then that the band really became the travelling jukebox but it took the best part of 6 years for them to reach this state.
To claim that Mike was plotting this back in 1973 has no basis in fact or logic at all.
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« Reply #291 on: May 25, 2015, 11:54:28 AM »

A cursory look at 1978 setlists still show the band taking risks in concert. After that...the risks became few and far between. And if you listen to the bootleg from Uniondale, NY in 1979, the audience annoys the band so much with idiotic requests for 409 that the band half-heartedly shrugs out the chorus and ends with Michael telling the crowd "NOW SHUT UP FOR A WHILE!"
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« Reply #292 on: May 25, 2015, 06:17:11 PM »

You're overlooking one very important thing, there were more oldies added within the year of Endless Summer's success but the plan was (with Brian back in charge and the band more popular then it had been in years) that there would be many new hits added to the established setlist as they were recorded. The only problem was with the exception of the Rock and Roll Music cover there were no more new hits. The band kept playing a small core of progressive era material for years but by the end of the 70s it became crystal clear that nobody was coming to hear the likes of Feel Flows or All This is That anymore. It was only then that the band really became the travelling jukebox but it took the best part of 6 years for them to reach this state.
To claim that Mike was plotting this back in 1973 has no basis in fact or logic at all.

 Maybe so, but I'll wager a bet Mike was the primary force behind what the setlist unquestionably became 1981-onward: the 25 biggest hits 1962-68, plus "Rock and Roll Music" and whatever the latest record was. Oh well, the whole band must take responsibility one way or another. And you know Mike brought in the cheerleaders.  Wink
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« Reply #293 on: May 25, 2015, 10:38:20 PM »

You're overlooking one very important thing, there were more oldies added within the year of Endless Summer's success but the plan was (with Brian back in charge and the band more popular then it had been in years) that there would be many new hits added to the established setlist as they were recorded. The only problem was with the exception of the Rock and Roll Music cover there were no more new hits. The band kept playing a small core of progressive era material for years but by the end of the 70s it became crystal clear that nobody was coming to hear the likes of Feel Flows or All This is That anymore. It was only then that the band really became the travelling jukebox but it took the best part of 6 years for them to reach this state.
To claim that Mike was plotting this back in 1973 has no basis in fact or logic at all.

 Maybe so, but I'll wager a bet Mike was the primary force behind what the setlist unquestionably became 1981-onward: the 25 biggest hits 1962-68, plus "Rock and Roll Music" and whatever the latest record was. Oh well, the whole band must take responsibility one way or another. And you know Mike brought in the cheerleaders.  Wink

It's a bet you'd win, although a case could be made for 1980 being the cutoff point
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« Reply #294 on: May 25, 2015, 10:42:27 PM »

A more interesting discussion might be something along the lines of...what might have happened if Brian and VDP had the collective courage/support to scuttle Mike from the band in 66-67?  Or what might have happened if they had decided to take Smile as a BW solo album and released it under a different label?

Every SMiLE fanatic, and possibly even every Beach Boy fan period, has asked this question at some point. Realistically it never would have happened. Not the way things had already played out. Ignoring his illness and insecurities, the relative "failure" of Pet Sounds and the Caroline No single probably showed Brian that to leave the band would be a commercial mistake. VDP never would have ousted a Beach Boy. He saw them as a family unit and felt guilty for driving a wedge between them with his work. He never would have turned them against each other willingly, and probably would have bowed out on principle if Brian told him he was choosing SMiLE over his cousin. So, it's a nice thought, but realistically it never would have happened, not either scenario you list. And again, it was primarily Brian who called the shots and decided not to go through with it. Mike and the Boys criticisms almost certainly influenced his decision, but ultimately he was the one who lost track of the big picture, lost faith in his creation, and decided to go in a different direction with it. End of story.

Thank you for your post.  What you say makes a ton of sense.  Where I would dare to disagree is "End of story."

haha, fair enough. Not trying to silence dissent or anything, just emphasize how next-to-impossible it would have been for Mike to be kicked out over this, and even if he was it wouldnt make a difference in terms of SMiLE's release. For what its worth, I still think it would have been better off if he DID get kicked out around 68 or 69. By then he had written all he songs worth a damn, and all he was good for from then on was stirring up drama and pushing the band in the wrong direction. But I think the only chance for that to happen is the scenario someone else laid out where Jack Riely fires him.

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« Reply #295 on: May 25, 2015, 10:43:34 PM »

You're overlooking one very important thing, there were more oldies added within the year of Endless Summer's success but the plan was (with Brian back in charge and the band more popular then it had been in years) that there would be many new hits added to the established setlist as they were recorded. The only problem was with the exception of the Rock and Roll Music cover there were no more new hits. The band kept playing a small core of progressive era material for years but by the end of the 70s it became crystal clear that nobody was coming to hear the likes of Feel Flows or All This is That anymore. It was only then that the band really became the travelling jukebox but it took the best part of 6 years for them to reach this state.
To claim that Mike was plotting this back in 1973 has no basis in fact or logic at all.

 Maybe so, but I'll wager a bet Mike was the primary force behind what the setlist unquestionably became 1981-onward: the 25 biggest hits 1962-68, plus "Rock and Roll Music" and whatever the latest record was. Oh well, the whole band must take responsibility one way or another. And you know Mike brought in the cheerleaders.  Wink

It would not suprise me if it was but it could just as well have been Al, Bruce or all of them. By 1981 they'd had 4 albums bomb in succession and no new material in sight. The progressive era was a faded memory but the Greatest Hits comps were still selling well, what choice did they have but to pack the shows full of early stuff?
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« Reply #296 on: May 25, 2015, 10:51:01 PM »

When Mike deviated from the old days, he was not so well received.  Remember the Maharishi tour?
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« Reply #297 on: May 25, 2015, 11:09:14 PM »

You're overlooking one very important thing, there were more oldies added within the year of Endless Summer's success but the plan was (with Brian back in charge and the band more popular then it had been in years) that there would be many new hits added to the established setlist as they were recorded. The only problem was with the exception of the Rock and Roll Music cover there were no more new hits. The band kept playing a small core of progressive era material for years but by the end of the 70s it became crystal clear that nobody was coming to hear the likes of Feel Flows or All This is That anymore. It was only then that the band really became the travelling jukebox but it took the best part of 6 years for them to reach this state.
To claim that Mike was plotting this back in 1973 has no basis in fact or logic at all.

 Maybe so, but I'll wager a bet Mike was the primary force behind what the setlist unquestionably became 1981-onward: the 25 biggest hits 1962-68, plus "Rock and Roll Music" and whatever the latest record was. Oh well, the whole band must take responsibility one way or another. And you know Mike brought in the cheerleaders.  Wink

It would not suprise me if it was but it could just as well have been Al, Bruce or all of them. By 1981 they'd had 4 albums bomb in succession and no new material in sight. The progressive era was a faded memory but the Greatest Hits comps were still selling well, what choice did they have but to pack the shows full of early stuff?

Agreed, but only to a point. If 15 Big Ones (which I happen to love, by the way) had been up to the quality of the previous few albums, with the level of hype it got, they would've been set . As it was, the hype backfired. They got so many people buying the album, and were disappointed in what they heard to the point where their album sales weren't going to recover.
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« Reply #298 on: May 26, 2015, 12:54:47 AM »

You're overlooking one very important thing, there were more oldies added within the year of Endless Summer's success but the plan was (with Brian back in charge and the band more popular then it had been in years) that there would be many new hits added to the established setlist as they were recorded. The only problem was with the exception of the Rock and Roll Music cover there were no more new hits. The band kept playing a small core of progressive era material for years but by the end of the 70s it became crystal clear that nobody was coming to hear the likes of Feel Flows or All This is That anymore. It was only then that the band really became the travelling jukebox but it took the best part of 6 years for them to reach this state.
To claim that Mike was plotting this back in 1973 has no basis in fact or logic at all.

 Maybe so, but I'll wager a bet Mike was the primary force behind what the setlist unquestionably became 1981-onward: the 25 biggest hits 1962-68, plus "Rock and Roll Music" and whatever the latest record was. Oh well, the whole band must take responsibility one way or another. And you know Mike brought in the cheerleaders.  Wink

It would not suprise me if it was but it could just as well have been Al, Bruce or all of them. By 1981 they'd had 4 albums bomb in succession and no new material in sight. The progressive era was a faded memory but the Greatest Hits comps were still selling well, what choice did they have but to pack the shows full of early stuff?

Agreed, but only to a point. If 15 Big Ones (which I happen to love, by the way) had been up to the quality of the previous few albums, with the level of hype it got, they would've been set . As it was, the hype backfired. They got so many people buying the album, and were disappointed in what they heard to the point where their album sales weren't going to recover.

 Rock! very true, by my reckoning.
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Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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« Reply #299 on: May 26, 2015, 01:08:16 AM »

I think the greatest hits touring was inevitable really and it happens to a huge number of singles bands. Daryl Dragon said that even back in the late-60s fans would walk out when they played rarer material...

1979 was indeed the cut-off point where they played just the hits and a few new songs (with maybe 1 rarity thrown in) but with the setlists pretty short in those days that is no surprise.

Below is a rough list of rare (non-new) original songs that the band played with any regularity after this time. Doubtless it is not entirely accurate but 1986 seems another cut-off point where the covers came in:

1979 – Roller Skating Child
1980 – Nothing
1981 – Sail on Sailor and sometimes Marcella
1982 – Disney Girls and sometimes Lady Lynda
1983 – You`re So Good to Me, The Warmth of the Sun and sometimes Sail on Sailor
1984 – Heaven, Wendy and The Warmth of the Sun
1985 – Heaven
1986 – Nothing as they were covering GTO, California Dreamin, Okie from Muskogee and Hey Little Cobra
1987 – Nothing as they were covering Little Old Lady from Pasedena in addition to the above
1988 – This Whole World and Wendy
1989 – Nothing (lots of covers)
1990 – Please Let Me Wonder and California Saga
1991 - Please Let Me Wonder and You`re So Good to Me
1992 – Nothing
1993 – The unplugged songs
1994 – Sometimes All This is That and Disney Girls
1995 – Nothing
1996 – Little Honda, The Warmth of the Sun and Sail on Sailor
1997 – You`re So Good To Me and sometimes Summer in Paradise, The Warmth of the Sun and Sail on Sailor
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