You're The Beach Boys, it's 1966, and come home from a tour to find........

[Mike's Beard]

I actually completely agree with that statement. However, I do wonder if the original lyrics had stuck, if that would have gained them any hip counterculture cred. In and of itself, probably not a sizable dent, but if combined with a released and finished SMiLE, attendees at Monterey Pop might have been going back to seek out Pet Sounds, and perhaps a song like Ego would've been their gateway into their discovery. Ultimately, even if the released lyrics are admittedly better, I think it would have been a positive step in shattering their cheesy image.
Do you think the Ego song lyrics were directed at anyone in particular?

Who knows? I wonder what Terry Sachen lyrical contribution was? I know this is the song Mike flat out refused to sing certain drug related lines for.

[CenturyDeprived]

I concur. It absolutely is the pinnacle. It's simply magnificent, and Mike's contributions are fantastic. I wonder if Mike ever later admitted that he was wrong in criticizing it, the way Carl admitted he was wrong about questioning that part in Good Vibrations.

Who knows with those two? Looking at the lyrics throughout Today!, it does make me wonder why Brian felt Mike couldn't deliver introspective lyrics for the songs he had in mind on Pet Sounds? It does bug me no end when it's implied that one minute the band was singing about surfing and the next Pet Sounds appeared out of a vacuum.

Mike had a lot of talent, and he could definitely write some great lyrics about deeper material. I think anyone who questions that is certainly off base.  But I think the reasons are quite clear. Brian wanted to push further, much further. How would a song like IJWMFTT have come to be with Mike? Brian most likely simply "had it up to here" with Today Side B type questions, but had a difficulty confronting that grievance directly; Brian probably viewed his cousin as an intellectual simpleton, relative to the depths that Brian wanted to go. Bottom line was that Brian knew that people questioning his decisions, as was what apparently happened with side B of Today (despite it still very fortunately coming to fruition), would and could be a problem and impediment, particularly if he could see that the line of questioning would become more and more ardent. As it eventually did in fact become.

[CenturyDeprived]

I actually completely agree with that statement. However, I do wonder if the original lyrics had stuck, if that would have gained them any hip counterculture cred. In and of itself, probably not a sizable dent, but if combined with a released and finished SMiLE, attendees at Monterey Pop might have been going back to seek out Pet Sounds, and perhaps a song like Ego would've been their gateway into their discovery. Ultimately, even if the released lyrics are admittedly better, I think it would have been a positive step in shattering their cheesy image.
Do you think the Ego song lyrics were directed at anyone in particular?

Who knows? I wonder what Terry Sachen lyrical contribution was? I know this is the song Mike flat out refused to sing certain drug related lines for.

I would be highly surprised if the ego references weren't in someway directed towards both Mike and Brian himself. Brian trying to get the people in his own life, including himself, to examine how ego plays a role in how they conduct themselves. I think it was an attempt at deep personal self reflection, as well as trying to get others to have that same type of experience.

[Mike's Beard]

Mike had a lot of talent, and he could definitely write some great lyrics about deeper material. I think anyone who questions that is certainly off base.  But I think the reasons are quite clear. Brian wanted to push further, much further. How would a song like IJWMFTT have come to be with Mike? Brian most likely simply "had it up to here" with Today Side B type questions, but had a difficulty confronting that grievance directly; Brian probably viewed his cousin as an intellectual simpleton, relative to the depths that Brian wanted to go. Bottom line was that Brian knew that people questioning his decisions, as was what apparently happened with side B of Today (despite it still very fortunately coming to fruition), would and could be a problem and impediment, particularly if he could see that the line of questioning would become more and more ardent. As it eventually did in fact become.

You could be right there. Whatever Brian's motivations were, he clearly felt a fresh collaborator was needed.

[drbeachboy]

Don't get me wrong, I love Tony Asher's lyrics, but I really don't see this "deepness" in some of the songs that Tony wrote. They are young love lyrics. Maybe a bit more mature where love is leading to marriage, but still young love. Brian was married and Mike at least twice by then. I can't see why Mike could not have written lyrics to songs like Wouldn't It Be Nice, That's Not Me or even Here Today? There is nothing in those lyrics that they themselves did not experience. I do agree that introspective songs like I Just Wasn't Made For These Times, God Only Knows, Don't Talk and You Still Believe In Me needed that touch that Tony's lyrics brought to them.

[Bicyclerider]

I think Mike was too into early teenage love, while Brian had Tony Asher help him express what was really important, adult relationships.

Brian was into early teenage love as much as Mike - Barbara Rovell anyone?  That Tony was able to translate Brian's frankly immature emotional outpourings into the lyrics that he did was a testament to Tony's lyrical skill and more developed psyche.

[Mike's Beard]

Don't forget Mike actually wrote the lyrics for I'm Waiting For the Day back in 1964.

[SMiLE Brian]

Mike's lyrics on summer days are really bad and I can see why BW didn't work with him for a while. The music far exceeded the lyrics by then.

[filledeplage]

Mike's lyrics on summer days are really bad and I can see why BW didn't work with him for a while. The music far exceeded the lyrics by then.

Summer Days all written by - Wilson - Love - except Then I Kissed Her (cover)

The Girl from NY City
Amusement Park USA
Salt Lake City
Girl Don't Tell Me, just Brian
Help Me Rhonda #1 - bad lyrics, of course

California Girls - more bad lyrics - radio plays 4 to 5 million likely biggest royalty earner and one of the best international (So Africa - number 1 for six weeks.

Let Him Run Wild
You're So Good To Me
Summer Means New Love
I'm Bugged at my old Man - just Brian
And you're Dreams Come True

Really bad lyrics? Interesting perspective...

[CenturyDeprived]

I can't see why Mike could not have written lyrics to songs like Wouldn't It Be Nice, That's Not Me or even Here Today?  

Whether or not Mike could have written them (and perhaps he could have) doesn't strike me as especially relevant. Perhaps he could have. But maybe there would have been some subtle pushback in the air, not entirely dissimilar to what Brian had previously experienced on Today Side B, and he just didn't feel that it would be the optimal emotionally free vibe in the air for him to work with Mike on that project. And it would very likely have hindered songs like IJWMFTT from happening. And that just happens to be one of the best songs Brian ever wrote. Thank goodness Brian went with his instincts regarding who he should collaborate with on that entire project. It's not worth risking great material from even existing just because Mike could maybe have done a solid lyric job on some of the songs.

Working with some people can simply become draining after awhile, even if some good results can be achieved.  

[Awesoman]

...a pointlessly stupid message board thread???

[drbeachboy]

I can't see why Mike could not have written lyrics to songs like Wouldn't It Be Nice, That's Not Me or even Here Today? 

Whether or not Mike could have written them (and perhaps he could have) doesn't strike me as especially relevant. Perhaps he could have. But maybe there would have been some subtle pushback in the air, not entirely dissimilar to what Brian had previously experienced on Today Side B, and he just didn't feel that it would be the optimal emotionally free vibe in the air for him to work with Mike on that project. And it would very likely have hindered songs like IJWMFTT from happening. And that just happens to be one of the best songs Brian ever wrote. Thank goodness Brian went with his instincts regarding who he should collaborate with on that entire project. It's not worth risking great material from even existing just because Mike could maybe have done a solid lyric job on some of the songs.

Working with some people can simply become draining after awhile, even if some good results can be achieved. 

Geez, I really did not know that Mike wielded that much power. Good thing Mike was OK with how things went down or Pet Sounds would never exist. Sorry my post was so irrelevant to the thread.

[Douchepool]

...a pointlessly stupid message board thread???

 

[CenturyDeprived]

I can't see why Mike could not have written lyrics to songs like Wouldn't It Be Nice, That's Not Me or even Here Today?  

Whether or not Mike could have written them (and perhaps he could have) doesn't strike me as especially relevant. Perhaps he could have. But maybe there would have been some subtle pushback in the air, not entirely dissimilar to what Brian had previously experienced on Today Side B, and he just didn't feel that it would be the optimal emotionally free vibe in the air for him to work with Mike on that project. And it would very likely have hindered songs like IJWMFTT from happening. And that just happens to be one of the best songs Brian ever wrote. Thank goodness Brian went with his instincts regarding who he should collaborate with on that entire project. It's not worth risking great material from even existing just because Mike could maybe have done a solid lyric job on some of the songs.

Working with some people can simply become draining after awhile, even if some good results can be achieved.  

Geez, I really did not know that Mike wielded that much power. Good thing Mike was OK with how things went down or Pet Sounds would never exist. Sorry my post was so irrelevant to the thread.

I didn't say your entire post was irreverent to the thread. I pointed out that one particular line in your post was, IMO, irrelevant to a conversation that implies that perhaps, maybe Mike should have been given a shot write more Pet Sounds lyrics (that's the implication I'm getting, perhaps I'm mistaken). I'm just saying that there seem to be some pretty logical reasons why that didn't happen.

And regardless of how much power one yields... do you realize that someone who may have subtle resistance can affect a sensitive person in a significant way? Do you dispute that? It makes sense that Brian wanted some distance from Mike for this project; do you think that's an illogical assumption?

[Rocket]

I think Mike was too into early teenage love, while Brian had Tony Asher help him express what was really important, adult relationships.

I don't think Pet Sounds has to do necessarily with "adult relationships". It still has that sense of young love and innocence, which is then broken by Caroline, No. The difference between Love and Asher is I think Asher was a more mature wordsmith. Ultimately, Brian had them writing similar types of themes, but they had vastly different levels of maturity.

[drbeachboy]

I can't see why Mike could not have written lyrics to songs like Wouldn't It Be Nice, That's Not Me or even Here Today?  

Whether or not Mike could have written them (and perhaps he could have) doesn't strike me as especially relevant. Perhaps he could have. But maybe there would have been some subtle pushback in the air, not entirely dissimilar to what Brian had previously experienced on Today Side B, and he just didn't feel that it would be the optimal emotionally free vibe in the air for him to work with Mike on that project. And it would very likely have hindered songs like IJWMFTT from happening. And that just happens to be one of the best songs Brian ever wrote. Thank goodness Brian went with his instincts regarding who he should collaborate with on that entire project. It's not worth risking great material from even existing just because Mike could maybe have done a solid lyric job on some of the songs.

Working with some people can simply become draining after awhile, even if some good results can be achieved.  

Geez, I really did not know that Mike wielded that much power. Good thing Mike was OK with how things went down or Pet Sounds would never exist. Sorry my post was so irrelevant to the thread.

I didn't say your entire post was irreverent to the thread. I pointed out that one particular line in your post was, IMO, irrelevant to a conversation that implies that perhaps, maybe Mike should have been given a shot write more Pet Sounds lyrics (that's the implication I'm getting, perhaps I'm mistaken). I'm just saying that there seem to be some pretty logical reasons why that didn't happen. And regardless of how much power one yields... do you realize that someone who may have subtle resistance can affect a sensitive person in a significant way? It makes sense that Brian wanted some distance from Mike for this project; do you think that's an illogical assumption?

The remarks about Mike had to do with that not every lyric that Tony Asher wrote for Pet Sounds was "Deep". Also, that in hindsight we know that Mike likes to be included in the songwriting. That his participation may have eased the emotional load Brian was under to get it completed. I totally understand why Brian went outside the confines and used Tony as a writing partner for most of the songs.

[petsite]

Wow, this really started a debate. After reading Leaf's book in the 70's, I was like screw those guys, your the true leader Brian. But as you get older, you start to realize that everybody has feelings and you have to take those into consideration as well.  This actually happened, I had a good friend who got caught up in local "politics" and was told that he needed to drop us, his UN-connected friends, in order to further himself. His new friends would tell us, you aren't good enough for him, you will hold him back." Well, long story short, we let him go, and when the political move didn't pan out, they dropped him and he came back to us, his real friends. I was mad, but I though he had to do this to find out who was real and who wasn't. I think the same could be said here with Brian. Aside from Anderle (who I always liked, really smart guy) and Van Dyke, the rest were fair weather at best.

[CenturyDeprived]

I can't see why Mike could not have written lyrics to songs like Wouldn't It Be Nice, That's Not Me or even Here Today?  

Whether or not Mike could have written them (and perhaps he could have) doesn't strike me as especially relevant. Perhaps he could have. But maybe there would have been some subtle pushback in the air, not entirely dissimilar to what Brian had previously experienced on Today Side B, and he just didn't feel that it would be the optimal emotionally free vibe in the air for him to work with Mike on that project. And it would very likely have hindered songs like IJWMFTT from happening. And that just happens to be one of the best songs Brian ever wrote. Thank goodness Brian went with his instincts regarding who he should collaborate with on that entire project. It's not worth risking great material from even existing just because Mike could maybe have done a solid lyric job on some of the songs.

Working with some people can simply become draining after awhile, even if some good results can be achieved.  

Geez, I really did not know that Mike wielded that much power. Good thing Mike was OK with how things went down or Pet Sounds would never exist. Sorry my post was so irrelevant to the thread.

I didn't say your entire post was irreverent to the thread. I pointed out that one particular line in your post was, IMO, irrelevant to a conversation that implies that perhaps, maybe Mike should have been given a shot write more Pet Sounds lyrics (that's the implication I'm getting, perhaps I'm mistaken). I'm just saying that there seem to be some pretty logical reasons why that didn't happen. And regardless of how much power one yields... do you realize that someone who may have subtle resistance can affect a sensitive person in a significant way? It makes sense that Brian wanted some distance from Mike for this project; do you think that's an illogical assumption?

The remarks about Mike had to do with that not every lyric that Tony Asher wrote for Pet Sounds was "Deep". Also, that in hindsight we know that Mike likes to be included in the songwriting. That his participation may have eased the emotional load Brian was under to get it completed. I totally understand why Brian went outside the confines and used Tony as a writing partner for most of the songs.

Trying to understand what you mean by the bolded part. Are you saying that there would have been less of an emotional load for Brian to carry since if Mike got to write some additional songs on Pet Sounds, that then Brian wouldn't be dealing with as much emotional awkwardness in the air from a frustrated bandmate?

[petzounds29]

Who knows? I wonder what Terry Sachen lyrical contribution was? I know this is the song Mike flat out refused to sing certain drug related lines for.-Really there is  a version oft"Hang on to your ego"  on The Good Vibrations Box Set  , that has ,Mike singing lead using the same lyrics,Brian,sang on the first issued CD of Pet Sounds     

[Cam Mott]

Who knows? I wonder what Terry Sachen lyrical contribution was? I know this is the song Mike flat out refused to sing certain drug related lines for.-Really there is  a version oft"Hang on to your ego"  on The Good Vibrations Box Set  , that has ,Mike singing lead using the same lyrics,Brian,sang on the first issued CD of Pet Sounds      

There is the HOTYE vocal session tape of he and Al and Brian where Mike volunteers to "sing the whole damn thing", or something like that, but does Mike actually sing the words "HOTYE" on those takes that are available?

Also, it seems to often get framed as a Mike v. Brian thing but really wasn't it a Mike v. Sachen thing. Wasn't it even more actually a Brian v. Sachen thing as I'm pretty sure Brian has said he didn't like the "ego" ref, he thought it was too...something? Egoey or something? Hasn't Al said Brian changed it because he thought it was too controversial but Al wasn't sure the rest of them even knew what ego meant?

So Mike and Brian v. Sachen since both Mike and Brian had their reasons and the rest of them possibly didn't care it seems to me.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I distinctly recall years ago reading that during one track session Chuck told Brian what he was doing wouldn't work and was told to wait until the overdub was added. That could be the same session where someone - Tommy Tedesco ? - voiced the same objection. When he heard the playback, allegedly he said something like "Brian, I take back everything I've ever said about you".

Not sure if it was Carl, but someone certainly had a problem with the fuzz bass on "Little Honda".

As for "IKTAA/HOTYE"...

"I know so many people who think they can do it alone
They isolate their heads and stay in their saftey zones

Now what can you tell them
And what can you say that won't make them defensive

I know there's an answer
I know now but I have to find it by myself

They come on like they're peaceful
But inside they're so uptight
They trip through their day
And waste all their thoughts at night

Now how can I come on
And tell them the way that they live could be better

I know there's an answer
I know now but I have to find it by myself

Now how can I come on
And tell them the way that they live could be better

I know there's an answer
I know now but I have to find it by myself"


"I know so many people who think they can do it alone
They isolate their heads and stay in their saftey zones

Now what can you tell them
And what can you say that won't make them defensive

Hang on to your ego
Hang on, but I know that you're gonna lose the fight

They come on like their peaceful
But inside they're so uptight
They trip through the day
And waste all their thoughts at night

Now how can I say it
And how can I come on
When I know I'm guilty

Hang on to your ego
Hang on, but I know that you're gonna lose the fight

Now how can I say it
And how can I come on
When I know I'm guilty

So hang on to your ego
Hang on, but I know that you're gonna lose the fight"

You see any drug-related lyrics ? I don't see any drug-related lyrics. Anyone here see any drug-related lyrics ?

[Cabinessenceking]

I believe the wrecking crew often questioned Brian on some of his arrangements as well. I'm curious about what songs Carl faught with Brian about.  It seems in an interview that Brian said that Carl usually had good ideas.  But he usually sites Mike as being the most vocal about Pet Sounds and Smile.  Yet Mike is usually positive about the music, it's mostly the lyrics he had issues with. I'm not even convinced Mike had issues with the drugs in 1966. 

I´m not even sure Mike had issues with the drugs in 1966. And I don´t believe he necessarily was as concerned about the lyrics of PS and Smile, but more noticing Brian was changing, becoming less stable, surrounded by all the unfamiliar people and this made Mike worried. Easy to blame drugs, because to blame Brian becomes too personal. Brian 1965 and Brian 1967 were quite different and the substance abuse was only making it more clear that Brian´s mental health and stability were becoming more apparent. At the same time Brian was making really interesting new music, so it would be very confusing and hard to be Mike Love in 1966/67. We must try to emphasise with what he experienced.

[Robbie Mac]

Anyone here see any drug-related lyrics ?

Yes. Timothy Leary often said that taking LSD would enable the user to let go of your ego (as in the Freudian definition, not the common misuse of the word).  That is, to let go of your inhabitions and revert to the Id. It'actually kind of hard to miss.

[filledeplage]

Anyone here see any drug-related lyrics ?

Yes. Timothy Leary often said that taking LSD would enable the user to let go of your ego (as in the Freudian definition, not the common misuse of the word).  That is, to let go of your inhabitions and revert to the Id. It'actually kind of hard to miss.

Exactly.  It is the old 60's propaganda narrative...

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Also, consider this: You're Mike Love and you've been working hard on a tour and you're looking forward to coming home and hearing all the new amazing Brian Wilson songs for the next album. Then Brian invites you to a party over at his place where a bunch of hippies are hanging out and you watch as he turns on a tape and just grooves to a bunch of dogs barking. I mean, what??? When you consider how it would only be a matter of time before you would be forced to sing while Brian made a bobble head doll dance in front of you, you can see why tensions were pretty high.