You're The Beach Boys, it's 1966, and come home from a tour to find........

[petsite]

the people surrounding Brian that we know of, Lauren Daro, etc, who are telling Brian you don't need these other guys, you are THE MAN! How would you feel?

[ontor pertawst]

It'd be tough to quibble with his track record at that point. Mispelled Daro was right!

[Mike's Beard]

You'd tell Daro that in 50 years time he's going to make a total prick of himself on a certain msg board and that nobody gives a f uck what he thinks anyway.

[CenturyDeprived]

It'd be tough to quibble with his track record at that point. Mispelled Daro was right!

+1. If the Caroline, No BW single had charted bigger,  you can bet Brian's confidence would have been in a different place, and who knows what fruits that might have yielded. A more self confident Brian in 1966 at the height of his powers? That's a good thing in my book. Mind you, I love, love, love The other Boys and don't discount what they brought to the recordings (and I love/cherish their material from the wilderness years), but I think Brian needed his artistic circle to be "yes men" around this time, more than he needed artistic opposition and cocky phone calls demanding lyrics to be explained.

[Mike's Beard]

I'd say quite the opposite, the other guys in the band were Brian's biggest fans but they weren't fanboys, giving constructive criticism is not a bad thing.

[CenturyDeprived]

I'd say quite the opposite, the other guys in the band were Brian's biggest fans but they weren't fanboys, giving constructive criticism is not a bad thing.

I agree that constructive criticism is not a bad thing, in theory. But somewhere along the way, some (not all, but some) of their constructive criticism became destructive criticism. I think the negatives of that criticism eventually outweighed the positives.

[Mike's Beard]

It never seems to get mentioned but do you think it's likely that others gave a difference of opinion to Brian before the Pet Sounds/Smile era?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

You'd tell Daro that in 50 years time he's going to make a total prick of himself on a certain msg board and that nobody gives a f uck what he thinks anyway.

+1

[CenturyDeprived]

It never seems to get mentioned but do you think it's likely that others gave a difference of opinion to Brian before the Pet Sounds/Smile era?

Wasn't there some resistance or questioning (despite Mike's cowriting credits) to the collection of ballads on Side B of Today? I though I recalled reading that. It is unfortunate that Brian wasn't especially good with handling criticism (up to a point yes, beyond a point he simply breaks), although that just makes him a very sensitive person, which is also what makes him capable of unparalleled sensitivity in his art.

I do "get" the idea that criticism and pushback is ordinarily simply "how bands work", but Brian was a special case. I do not think those criticisms were always handled with care, so to speak, and that was a problem.

[Dove Nested Towers]

It never seems to get mentioned but do you think it's likely that others gave a difference of opinion to Brian before the Pet Sounds/Smile era?

Wasn't there some resistance or questioning (despite Mike's cowriting credits) to the collection of ballads on Side B of Today? I though I recalled reading that. It is unfortunate that Brian wasn't especially good with handling criticism (up to a point yes, beyond a point he simply breaks), although that just makes him a very sensitive person, which is also what makes him capable of unparalleled sensitivity in his art.

I do "get" the idea that criticism and pushback is ordinarily simply "how bands work", but Brian was a special case. I do not think those criticisms were always handled with care, so to speak, and that was a problem.

Yes indeedy.

[Cam Mott]

He had been producing talent outside of the BBs for years but none of it had caught on. He had co-authored a hit for outside the BBs.

My guess is since Brian seems to have been able to do whatever he wanted with whomever he wanted and when he wanted that he didn't want to leave the group or the guys and he let those suggesting it go instead.

[Autotune]

It never seems to get mentioned but do you think it's likely that others gave a difference of opinion to Brian before the Pet Sounds/Smile era?

Hal Blaine tells about how he saw Brian and Carl get into very serious and heated arguments regarding music. Arguments that would lead to fistfights in other cases, were they not loving brothers (BBFUN interview). So yes, he had to convince Carl sometimes; and probably Carl convinced him. Also his father, maybe Nik Venet, Usher and others offered criticism. Nothing wrong with that; it's life. There's no 100% yes men anywhere; and given Brian's condition, the things to come would not have been avoided had Mike Love kept from asking the lyrics to Ego be changed.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I believe the wrecking crew often questioned Brian on some of his arrangements as well. I'm curious about what songs Carl faught with Brian about.  It seems in an interview that Brian said that Carl usually had good ideas.  But he usually sites Mike as being the most vocal about Pet Sounds and Smile.  Yet Mike is usually positive about the music, it's mostly the lyrics he had issues with. I'm not even convinced Mike had issues with the drugs in 1966. 

[Cam Mott]

I believe the wrecking crew often questioned Brian on some of his arrangements as well. I'm curious about what songs Carl faught with Brian about.  It seems in an interview that Brian said that Carl usually had good ideas.  But he usually sites Mike as being the most vocal about Pet Sounds and Smile.  Yet Mike is usually positive about the music, it's mostly the lyrics he had issues with. I'm not even convinced Mike had issues with the drugs in 1966. 

I believe Brian has said Carl had issues with Good Vibrations.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I believe the wrecking crew often questioned Brian on some of his arrangements as well. I'm curious about what songs Carl faught with Brian about.  It seems in an interview that Brian said that Carl usually had good ideas.  But he usually sites Mike as being the most vocal about Pet Sounds and Smile.  Yet Mike is usually positive about the music, it's mostly the lyrics he had issues with. I'm not even convinced Mike had issues with the drugs in 1966. 

I believe Brian has said Carl had issues with Good Vibrations.

Interesting.  I never heard that.  I new Carl had issues with a fuzz tone bass in an earlier song that he said sounded like sh*t. But later, Carl admitted it worked. The wrecking crew did a lot of the same.  But sometimes Brian would listen to others and agree that their ideas were better,  so he would change what he originally came up with. I don't have any way to prove this, but I truly feel that Mike was hurt by the fact that after he was pushed aside for other collaborators. I know others were used before,  but up until Summer Days, his credits increased. Maybe he wasn't willing to progress lyrically until he wrote the Good Vibrations lyrics. I don't know, but I completely understand being hurt by that.

[Cam Mott]

My memory is Brian had said a few times that one of the Boys had a problem with GV and then there was one interview where he said it was Carl. However, it could be a senior moment, I can't find them, still looking.

[wilsonart1]

Lewis Shiner you in here?  From the book Glimpses, how I enjoyed  "Estoy aqui por loco, no por pendejo" I think the next paragraph said It took Brian six days to finish Smile, like Jehovah in he old Testiment.  Glimpses was a good read.  Poor Mr. Love took some hots in it too.  Shiner covers what home from a tour was like.

[Robbie Mac]

Lewis Shiner you in here?  From the book Glimpses, how I enjoyed  "Estoy aqui por loco, no por pendejo" I think the next paragraph said It took Brian six days to finish Smile, like Jehovah in he old Testiment.  Glimpses was a good read.  Poor Mr. Love took some hots in it too.  Shiner covers what home from a tour was like.

Lewis Shiner probably has better things to do than fight off Kokomaoists.

[Mike's Beard]

It never seems to get mentioned but do you think it's likely that others gave a difference of opinion to Brian before the Pet Sounds/Smile era?

Wasn't there some resistance or questioning (despite Mike's cowriting credits) to the collection of ballads on Side B of Today? I though I recalled reading that. It is unfortunate that Brian wasn't especially good with handling criticism (up to a point yes, beyond a point he simply breaks), although that just makes him a very sensitive person, which is also what makes him capable of unparalleled sensitivity in his art.

I do "get" the idea that criticism and pushback is ordinarily simply "how bands work", but Brian was a special case. I do not think those criticisms were always handled with care, so to speak, and that was a problem.

I wonder what Mike's problem with it was - maybe he thought a whole side of ballads wouldn't work.  BTW, the second side of Today! for me is the pinnacle of Brian and Mike working together.

[CenturyDeprived]

I believe the wrecking crew often questioned Brian on some of his arrangements as well. I'm curious about what songs Carl faught with Brian about.  It seems in an interview that Brian said that Carl usually had good ideas.  But he usually sites Mike as being the most vocal about Pet Sounds and Smile.  Yet Mike is usually positive about the music, it's mostly the lyrics he had issues with. I'm not even convinced Mike had issues with the drugs in 1966. 

I believe Brian has said Carl had issues with Good Vibrations.

Interesting.  I never heard that.  I new Carl had issues with a fuzz tone bass in an earlier song that he said sounded like sh*t. But later, Carl admitted it worked. The wrecking crew did a lot of the same.  But sometimes Brian would listen to others and agree that their ideas were better,  so he would change what he originally came up with. I don't have any way to prove this, but I truly feel that Mike was hurt by the fact that after he was pushed aside for other collaborators. I know others were used before,  but up until Summer Days, his credits increased. Maybe he wasn't willing to progress lyrically until he wrote the Good Vibrations lyrics. I don't know, but I completely understand being hurt by that.

I'm sure it hurt his feelings. Every logical piece of evidence points to that, and I can empathize too. And we know that there are reprocessions when he gets his feelings hurt in this specific area, such as what happened after pushed aside decades later from the same cowriting position.  Mike must feel like he's living in the film Groundhog Day.

[CenturyDeprived]

It never seems to get mentioned but do you think it's likely that others gave a difference of opinion to Brian before the Pet Sounds/Smile era?

Wasn't there some resistance or questioning (despite Mike's cowriting credits) to the collection of ballads on Side B of Today? I though I recalled reading that. It is unfortunate that Brian wasn't especially good with handling criticism (up to a point yes, beyond a point he simply breaks), although that just makes him a very sensitive person, which is also what makes him capable of unparalleled sensitivity in his art.

I do "get" the idea that criticism and pushback is ordinarily simply "how bands work", but Brian was a special case. I do not think those criticisms were always handled with care, so to speak, and that was a problem.

I wonder what Mike's problem with it was - maybe he thought a whole side of ballads wouldn't work.  BTW, the second side of Today! for me is the pinnacle of Brian and Mike working together.

I concur. It absolutely is the pinnacle. It's simply magnificent, and Mike's contributions are fantastic. I wonder if Mike ever later admitted that he was wrong in criticizing it, the way Carl admitted he was wrong about questioning that part in Good Vibrations.

[Mike's Beard]

It never seems to get mentioned but do you think it's likely that others gave a difference of opinion to Brian before the Pet Sounds/Smile era?

Hal Blaine tells about how he saw Brian and Carl get into very serious and heated arguments regarding music. Arguments that would lead to fistfights in other cases, were they not loving brothers (BBFUN interview). So yes, he had to convince Carl sometimes; and probably Carl convinced him. Also his father, maybe Nik Venet, Usher and others offered criticism. Nothing wrong with that; it's life. There's no 100% yes men anywhere; and given Brian's condition, the things to come would not have been avoided had Mike Love kept from asking the lyrics to Ego be changed.

I think Hang on to Your Ego is a very good example of Brian sometimes benefiting from a second opinion. The words on the chorus frankly suck, I Know There's an Answer was far better and fitted the underlying themes of the Pet Sounds album.

[CenturyDeprived]

It never seems to get mentioned but do you think it's likely that others gave a difference of opinion to Brian before the Pet Sounds/Smile era?

Hal Blaine tells about how he saw Brian and Carl get into very serious and heated arguments regarding music. Arguments that would lead to fistfights in other cases, were they not loving brothers (BBFUN interview). So yes, he had to convince Carl sometimes; and probably Carl convinced him. Also his father, maybe Nik Venet, Usher and others offered criticism. Nothing wrong with that; it's life. There's no 100% yes men anywhere; and given Brian's condition, the things to come would not have been avoided had Mike Love kept from asking the lyrics to Ego be changed.

I think Hang on to Your Ego is a very good example of Brian sometimes benefiting from a second opinion. The words on the chorus frankly suck, I Know There's an Answer was far better and fitted the underlying themes of the Pet Sounds album.

I actually completely agree with that statement. However, I do wonder if the original lyrics had stuck, if that would have gained them any hip counterculture cred. In and of itself, probably not a sizable dent, but if combined with a released and finished SMiLE, attendees at Monterey Pop might have been going back to seek out Pet Sounds, and perhaps a song like Ego would've been their gateway into their discovery. Ultimately, even if the released lyrics are admittedly better, I think it would have been a positive step in shattering their cheesy image.
Do you think the Ego song lyrics were directed at anyone in particular?

[Mike's Beard]

I concur. It absolutely is the pinnacle. It's simply magnificent, and Mike's contributions are fantastic. I wonder if Mike ever later admitted that he was wrong in criticizing it, the way Carl admitted he was wrong about questioning that part in Good Vibrations.

Who knows with those two? Looking at the lyrics throughout Today!, it does make me wonder why Brian felt Mike couldn't deliver introspective lyrics for the songs he had in mind on Pet Sounds? It does bug me no end when it's implied that one minute the band was singing about surfing and the next Pet Sounds appeared out of a vacuum.

[SMiLE Brian]

I think Mike was too into early teenage love, while Brian had Tony Asher help him express what was really important, adult relationships.