gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680601 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 29, 2024, 03:08:58 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Brian, The Beach Boys, and the SMiLE tracks.  (Read 4089 times)
petsite
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 770



View Profile
« on: May 11, 2015, 11:26:29 PM »

If Bob Hanes were around, he would give me a fit right about now, but I just wanted to ask something (since we have AGD, JS etc) on the boards, as well as the youngsters (not a derogatory term as I was once like you! ).

I have been re-reading the Tom Nolan article about Surf's Up from 1971 RS as well as other things written around that time. Here is the question. Was it right for the guys (meaning Carl and Al mostly) to push to get SMiLE tracks out to the public, whether to increase their $$$, their hipness or just to get this great music out. I am asking because FOREVER I have always felt NO. They should not have pushed Brian nor gone behind his back and released Our Prayer and Cabinessence. But, I guess with age comes a different prospective. Not a monetary one (at least for me), but a more real approach to the situation. Here me out.

Brian held damn near 100 sessions for SMILE. Each session was charged to the group by Capitol and removed from their normal payments to cover cost. Now, if we (the group) need to get this music out to get that money so we can even continue, shouldn't we have a say so in what goes on? Because in the end, its not Brian Wilson solo artist and these 5 other also-rans, but a complete unit. And we (the group) have our names on the same contracts as you Brian and we are responsible for the payments back to Capitol as you. So moving to get this music out on that level was wise. As a matter of fact, Steve Desper has said that Carl and Brian both went thru those tapes to try and find things to release to get that money from Capitol.

I have to admit that I use to feel Brian was this figure of an artist and those guys should have been damn lucky to even breathe the same air as him. If he did something that broke them financially, who cares, they wouldn't be there without him so what? I even use to argue that if Brian did something that caused them all to go broke, they should give up everything they have to make sure Brian was good. That I now know is how we look at everything these days. There are a few superstars, and the rest of the people should be lucky to be around them and not demand anything from them.

Now, on an artistic level, should they have put out these tracks. Well, the fact that these tracks were always well received should answer that. Surf's Up was lauded for the wonder jewel that it was. Such a precious stone. And while I use to argue they shouldn't have pushed to get it out, I would have been devastated if it hadn't. Carl I think really loved this music and knew Brian would received accolades from it. So would the rest of the group. But his brother would shine again. Maybe he thought that was what Brian needed.

Anyway, I wanted to ask to see what others have to say. Thanks for your time in reading this.

Logged
The Shift
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Gender: Male
Posts: 7427


Biding time


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2015, 12:05:16 AM »

Great topic.

Would like to give it a bit more thought but later maybe…

For now, my initial reaction was "but where would we all be now?"

If we hadn't had those tempting glimpses of Smile, through Prayer, Cabinessence and Surf's Up (take it for granted that Vibes and Heroes would be out there anyway, as Brian-sanctioned releases), would the cult of Smile have ever gotten off the ground? Would that one solo performance of SU on TV have been sufficient for the movement to have grown with sufficient momentum to see out the 2011 release of riches?
Logged

“We live in divisive times.”
obscurereference
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 55


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2015, 03:51:25 AM »

Great topic.

Would like to give it a bit more thought but later maybe…

For now, my initial reaction was "but where would we all be now?"

If we hadn't had those tempting glimpses of Smile, through Prayer, Cabinessence and Surf's Up (take it for granted that Vibes and Heroes would be out there anyway, as Brian-sanctioned releases), would the cult of Smile have ever gotten off the ground? Would that one solo performance of SU on TV have been sufficient for the movement to have grown with sufficient momentum to see out the 2011 release of riches?
Honestly I think it would. Even right up to the release of BWPS, the IDEA of a "lost, mythical follow up to Pet Sounds" was at least as important in selling it as the quality of the songs that had already been heard.

Having said that I am glad that songs from SMiLE were included on later albums, in just about every case I think they improved the albums they were included on.
Logged

Douchepool
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 883


Time to make the chimifuckingchangas.


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2015, 06:28:33 AM »

If they were hard up for material and Brian was uncooperative, then they needed to use what they could if he was going to be represented somehow. Besides, no Smile fragments through the years might have meant a Smile no one cared about.
Logged

The Artist Formerly Known as Deadpool. You may refer to me as such, or as Mr. Pool.

This is also Mr. Pool's Naughty List. Don't end up on here. It will be updated.
KDS
Guest
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2015, 06:32:23 AM »

In Peter Carlin's Catch a Wave, didn't he say that Brian came down from his bedroom to assist in the completion of Surf's Up in 1971. 

I don't have the book with me, but I remember reading that Brian came down to sing the coda

"A children's song, have you listened as they play?
Their song is love, and the children know the way"
Logged
Mike's Beard
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4265


Check your privilege. Love & Mercy guys!


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2015, 08:31:18 AM »

The band had a nasty knack of sitting on great material so putting out some of the Smile highlights was a for once smart choice.
Logged

I'd rather be forced to sleep with Caitlyn Jenner then ever have to listen to NPP again.
Bicyclerider
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2132


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2015, 08:47:06 AM »

The Beach Boys were desperate for material and also wanted it to appear Brian was more active in 68-70 than he really was.  The fact that they were working with outside producers (Terry Jacks, Rick Henn, Murry for god's sakes) shows the extent of their desperation to get a "hit" and return to commercial relevance.  So yeah, they were perfectly justified in raiding the Brian Wilson vault for tracks to fill out an album - does anyone really think if they hadn't done that, Brian would have ever "finished" the tracks?  He was telling everyone the tapes had been destroyed!
Logged
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5749



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2015, 08:55:19 AM »

The Beach Boys were desperate for material and also wanted it to appear Brian was more active in 68-70 than he really was.  The fact that they were working with outside producers (Terry Jacks, Rick Henn, Murry for god's sakes) shows the extent of their desperation to get a "hit" and return to commercial relevance.  So yeah, they were perfectly justified in raiding the Brian Wilson vault for tracks to fill out an album - does anyone really think if they hadn't done that, Brian would have ever "finished" the tracks?  He was telling everyone the tapes had been destroyed!

Agreed about that desperation. When they started working with unknowns on tracks like Sweet and Bitter (which admittedly has its moments), it has to show something.

Which begs the question... what would have happened if the Boys had in fact had a genuine hit with a new outside producer, like one of the above mentioned dooders? Would they have continued working with them? Would Brian have gotten jealous and then in any way motivated to come back into the fold more? (Probably not, but just listing various hypotheticals).
Logged
KDS
Guest
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2015, 08:59:29 AM »

I could be wrong, but I really think that, in the climate of the rock world in the late 60s - early 70s, the Beach Boys were pariahs.  They were putting out music on far with their early classics, but it wasn't making much of a dent.  I really think that a huge Beach Boys hit single during this time period was a bit of a pipe dream. 

And I think that, even if they scored what probably would've been a minor hit, they would've still transformed into the traveling jukebox after the release of Endless Summer. 
Logged
Steve Latshaw
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 566


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2015, 09:38:14 AM »

I am really curious about the 1980 version of Can't Wait Too Long/Been Way Too Long that was slated for KTSA.  I know it was the vintage track with additional instruments added.  Has this ever surfaced?
Logged
Douchepool
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 883


Time to make the chimifuckingchangas.


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2015, 09:55:41 AM »

Never surfaced. Probably forgotten as soon as the LA version of Do You Like Worms.
Logged

The Artist Formerly Known as Deadpool. You may refer to me as such, or as Mr. Pool.

This is also Mr. Pool's Naughty List. Don't end up on here. It will be updated.
bgas
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6372


Oh for the good old days


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2015, 10:26:57 AM »

The Beach Boys were desperate for material and also wanted it to appear Brian was more active in 68-70 than he really was.  The fact that they were working with outside producers (Terry Jacks, Rick Henn, Murry for god's sakes) shows the extent of their desperation to get a "hit" and return to commercial relevance.  So yeah, they were perfectly justified in raiding the Brian Wilson vault for tracks to fill out an album - does anyone really think if they hadn't done that, Brian would have ever "finished" the tracks?  He was telling everyone the tapes had been destroyed!

Agreed about that desperation. When they started working with unknowns on tracks like Sweet and Bitter (which admittedly has its moments), it has to show something.

Which begs the question... what would have happened if the Boys had in fact had a genuine hit with a new outside producer, like one of the above mentioned dooders? Would they have continued working with them? Would Brian have gotten jealous and then in any way motivated to come back into the fold more? (Probably not, but just listing various hypotheticals).

BUT, Sweet and Bitter was worked on WITH Brian, from the available information( and with one of my hometown boys)
Logged

Nothing I post is my opinion, it's all a message from God
Steve Latshaw
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 566


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2015, 10:41:40 AM »

<<Never surfaced. Probably forgotten as soon as the LA version of Do You Like Worms.>>

According to Mr. Doe's exhaustive session list, significant instrumental work was done on it in early 1980.  I have to wonder if one of the two or three versions released commercially might have been that mix?
Logged
Douchepool
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 883


Time to make the chimifuckingchangas.


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2015, 10:45:43 AM »

Mr. Doe will probably know better.
Logged

The Artist Formerly Known as Deadpool. You may refer to me as such, or as Mr. Pool.

This is also Mr. Pool's Naughty List. Don't end up on here. It will be updated.
petsite
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 770



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2015, 03:09:23 PM »

Nice to see people like this question. It has always kind of haunted me as to what the right course of action would be.

SWD - I know you have written extensively about these sessions in your book, but, I was just wondering an overall question. SO SO many writings on the Surf's Up track make it sound like it was a monumental undertaking to get this done technically. I would have thought that just transferring the old 4 track backing track up to a 16 track then recording the lead vocals would have started the process. But interviews with Jack R. (RIP) and others say that Carl spent night after night after night just trying to "find" the first part. Was he looking for something that wasn't found, or just kind of trolling thru the tapes?

Logged
srealist
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2015, 03:30:30 PM »

I am really curious about the 1980 version of Can't Wait Too Long/Been Way Too Long that was slated for KTSA.  I know it was the vintage track with additional instruments added.  Has this ever surfaced?

I would really like to know more about this.
Logged
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1565


SMiLE is America: Infinite Potential Never Reached


View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2015, 12:00:26 PM »

I can totally see why they did it. I dont fault them at all for it, at the time it had to seem like the right thing to do for all the reasons listed, and I probably would have done the same.

THAT BEING SAID, in hindsight it was the wrong move. They couldnt have predicted BWPS or TSS, but with those out now, it just feels weird to hear SMiLE songs on unrelated albums. It almost cheapens the material. Surf's Up does NOT sound good with the other songs on Surf's Up. Mama Says just feels like cheap filler and discredits that piece of music. Cabin Essence and Our Prayer sound totally out of place on 20/20. I can go on. I know many people dont feel this way, but I see SMiLE as a cohesive, purposeful statement. These songs were meant to go together, they add up to a greater whole. By selling them for scrap, it's an insult to the original intent. As someone said, like a mustache on the Mona Lisa. Or like ripping a chapter out of The Great Gatsby and pasting it in another unrelated book just because you can.

You can say that they never anticipated the original album to come out, but didnt they? Wasnt Brian just putting the music on the backburner and intended to finish it later? Werent there plans to release some version in '68 by Capitol and '72 by the Boys? So why ruin the surprise of the best material? And now that we have the complete SMiLE (as complete as possible) it feels weird to look back on these other albums and hear the songs taken totally out of context.

Thats my take on it.
Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5749



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2015, 01:54:59 PM »

I can totally see why they did it. I dont fault them at all for it, at the time it had to seem like the right thing to do for all the reasons listed, and I probably would have done the same.

THAT BEING SAID, in hindsight it was the wrong move. They couldnt have predicted BWPS or TSS, but with those out now, it just feels weird to hear SMiLE songs on unrelated albums. It almost cheapens the material. Surf's Up does NOT sound good with the other songs on Surf's Up. Mama Says just feels like cheap filler and discredits that piece of music. Cabin Essence and Our Prayer sound totally out of place on 20/20. I can go on. I know many people dont feel this way, but I see SMiLE as a cohesive, purposeful statement. These songs were meant to go together, they add up to a greater whole. By selling them for scrap, it's an insult to the original intent. As someone said, like a mustache on the Mona Lisa. Or like ripping a chapter out of The Great Gatsby and pasting it in another unrelated book just because you can.

You can say that they never anticipated the original album to come out, but didnt they? Wasnt Brian just putting the music on the backburner and intended to finish it later? Werent there plans to release some version in '68 by Capitol and '72 by the Boys? So why ruin the surprise of the best material? And now that we have the complete SMiLE (as complete as possible) it feels weird to look back on these other albums and hear the songs taken totally out of context.

Thats my take on it.

Here's a question... Smiley Smile aside, if the BBs had not released any other Smile songs on any of their albums, do you think that would have made any difference in getting Brian to finish the project? I would be surprised if Brian didn't feel just the way you do, that the songs (and the very versions/recordings) specific to the project were sold off for scrap, as it were. Yes, Brian released Smiley Smile and re-recorded songs of his own volition. But I'm more referring to Cabinessence and Surf's Up. If those recordings had been thought of more sacredly to the original project by the band, I wonder if it would have made a difference. Not saying it would have at all, just something to ponder.
Logged
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1565


SMiLE is America: Infinite Potential Never Reached


View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2015, 03:11:44 PM »

I can totally see why they did it. I dont fault them at all for it, at the time it had to seem like the right thing to do for all the reasons listed, and I probably would have done the same.

THAT BEING SAID, in hindsight it was the wrong move. They couldnt have predicted BWPS or TSS, but with those out now, it just feels weird to hear SMiLE songs on unrelated albums. It almost cheapens the material. Surf's Up does NOT sound good with the other songs on Surf's Up. Mama Says just feels like cheap filler and discredits that piece of music. Cabin Essence and Our Prayer sound totally out of place on 20/20. I can go on. I know many people dont feel this way, but I see SMiLE as a cohesive, purposeful statement. These songs were meant to go together, they add up to a greater whole. By selling them for scrap, it's an insult to the original intent. As someone said, like a mustache on the Mona Lisa. Or like ripping a chapter out of The Great Gatsby and pasting it in another unrelated book just because you can.

You can say that they never anticipated the original album to come out, but didnt they? Wasnt Brian just putting the music on the backburner and intended to finish it later? Werent there plans to release some version in '68 by Capitol and '72 by the Boys? So why ruin the surprise of the best material? And now that we have the complete SMiLE (as complete as possible) it feels weird to look back on these other albums and hear the songs taken totally out of context.

Thats my take on it.

Here's a question... Smiley Smile aside, if the BBs had not released any other Smile songs on any of their albums, do you think that would have made any difference in getting Brian to finish the project? I would be surprised if Brian didn't feel just the way you do, that the songs (and the very versions/recordings) specific to the project were sold off for scrap, as it were. Yes, Brian released Smiley Smile and re-recorded songs of his own volition. But I'm more referring to Cabinessence and Surf's Up. If those recordings had been thought of more sacredly to the original project by the band, I wonder if it would have made a difference. Not saying it would have at all, just something to ponder.

I cant speak for Brian, but it's possible. It's probably why they never bothered to release the original sessions until just 4 years ago. As Mike said "you've got it already!"

I know for myself, if I had slaved away on this great work that was supposed to completely change my band's image, be a personal religious statement, and everything else...and my band didnt support me* then unceremoniously threw away piece after piece on completely unrelated albums, spoiling the surprise and diluting the message...I'd be incredibly frustrated and devastated by that. I cant think of a worse insult, creatively speaking, and when the other bandmates are literal family, it must add a personal component to it.

*Obligatory disclaimer about how Mike didnt kill SMiLE and the extent of his discontent was probably overblown in the media

EDIT: The quote from AGD in another thread seems to back my assessment up. The one about Brian weeping as Dennis basically says in no uncertain terms, that they're going to use Surf's Up like it or not.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 03:21:23 PM by Mujan, B@st@rd Son of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
Andrew G. Doe
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 17767


The triumph of The Hickey Script !


View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2015, 03:34:48 PM »

Mr. Doe will probably know better.

I'll ask my boss, Mr. Love.  Smiley

EDIT: The quote from AGD in another thread seems to back my assessment up. The one about Brian weeping as Dennis basically says in no uncertain terms, that they're going to use Surf's Up like it or not.

The impetus for including it on the album came from someone at Reprise who observed "if they include "Surf's Up" and call the album after it, we can pre-sell 150,000 copies". And they did, pretty much. Commerce 1, Artistry 0.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 03:38:55 PM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".
gfx
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.691 seconds with 21 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!