What a Beautiful day!! ( ck alert)

[bgas]

 This was fun.  
Today I added my voice to those taking CK to task. I did it linked to her facebook page, after reading how she recently received a check from Europe for royalties "earned" for playing on Good Vibrations, among others.
 Of course she accused me of lying and slandering her AND deleted my posts so there'd be no evidence of her misdeeds for her sheep to see.  I asked her to post the contract for SUSA to prove her claim...  
Her reply:  

>>Carol Kaye II Yes, Karen, thx, some child troll you're right.......Chris Woods, how dare you call me a liar.....when the pay-stubs of those tunes on my website, go take a hike....you're the LIAR AND SLANDERER.......!! BTW, it's AGAINST THE LAW TO POST ANY MUSICIANS UNION CONTRACT FYI. I'm on many a film including with Brian Wilson playing and discussing our hit of Good Vibrations.....go suck on a lollipop you poor child who has no clue of Studio Musicians and what we do....Brian announced us on those hits back in the late 1990s, and our names are officially put on the sleeves of re-issues....now go grow some balls and grow up! Sag-AFTRA royalty partial list below: click on it to see titles. <<

  Anyway, While I know there's a thread, or 500 threads, addressing this same subject on the board somewhere, I'm wondering this:  

And it may be  too simplistic, but here goes:  Is it possible she so vehemently defends her claim to ( wrongly) playing on these songs, because she still receives royalties thru the Musician's union and doesn't want to lose these payments? Losing one could lead to losing another, and another, etc.  Not certain how much $$ would even be involved. BUT, since she gets royalty checks for GV and she's not on that one, who knows how much $$ she rakes in  for other songs she doesn't play on?
 Cause if it's NOT the $$, then maybe she's simply some crazed forgetful old soul that's lost her way, and wants everyone else to be lost with her....  

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Carol-Kaye-II/168440386566810?fref=nf#!/pages/Carol-Kaye-II/168440386566810?fref=nf

[wantsomecorn]

Wow. She certainly has a foul mouth for her age.

[The Shift]

Maybe she goes royalties for the session excerpts and early versions that cropped up on the Aussie Rarities Lp, the Good Vibes box, TSS and such…?

But why does she get royalties anyway? Wasn't she paid for the session dates at the time?

[Mikie]

Carol Kaye played 12-string electric on the 4/9/66 Gold Star version (Ray Pohlman played the Fender bass on both the 2/17/66 and 4/9/66 sessions), Dano bass on the 5/24/66 Sunset Sound session (where Carl played Fender bass), and finally Fender bass on the 6/18/66 Western session.  That's it.  And NONE of those pieces made it to the final master edit.  So she's not on the single.  All of the Fender bass on the final, master single edit was played by Ray Pohlman, except for in the third bridge & chorus fade; the Fender bass in those sections was played by Arthur Wright (a genuine Motown session alumnus)

Edit: (Lyle Ritz played the Fender bass on the choruses included in the released 45 version).

- Craig Slowinski (C-man)

So Carol DID play on some Good Vibrations sessions (none of her takes were used for the final release) and she IS getting residuals for the song from the union.  She's on various documentaries and YouTube displaying that famous bass intro, and maybe she truly believes that she played on Good Vibrations!. Well, maybe not the final takes for the final version, but she played on a few sessions for the song. Brian seems to think she played on the song too as he's sitting right there in the video with her.

Glen Campbell says he "played on five sessions of Good Vibrations that he knows of", but that has never been proven.

[bgas]

Carol Kaye played 12-string electric on the 4/9/66 Gold Star version (Ray Pohlman played the Fender bass on both the 2/17/66 and 4/9/66 sessions), Dano bass on the 5/24/66 Sunset Sound session (where Carl played Fender bass), and finally Fender bass on the 6/18/66 Western session.  That's it.  And NONE of those pieces made it to the final master edit.  So she's not on the single.  All of the Fender bass on the final, master single edit was played by Ray Pohlman, except for in the third bridge & chorus fade; the Fender bass in those sections was played by Arthur Wright (a genuine Motown session alumnus)

Edit: (Lyle Ritz played the Fender bass on the choruses included in the released 45 version).

- Craig Slowinski (C-man)

So Carol DID play on some Good Vibrations sessions (none of her takes were used for the final release) and she IS getting residuals for the song from the union.  She's on various documentaries and YouTube displaying that famous bass intro, and maybe she truly believes that she played on Good Vibrations!. Well, maybe not the final takes for the final version, but she played on a few sessions for the song. Brian seems to think she played on the song too as he's sitting right there in the video with her.

Glen Campbell says he "played on five sessions of Good Vibrations that he knows of", but that has never been proven.

Sure. I didn't get iinto details on her page, just stated she didn't play on the GV released version, stated that Carl and Dave played on SUSA (not her and Strange) and she should post the contract she claims to have for SUSA to prove me wrong; but of course that's blasphemy to her. and anyone that doesn't agree with her pov has their statements removed from her page, evidently. and gets called names. And one of her sheep, Karen Dapello, is the spotter/badass. 

[Misterlou]

Her reply:  
Carol Kaye II Yes, Karen, thx, some child troll you're right.......Chris Woods, how dare you call me a liar.....when the pay-stubs of those tunes on my website, go take a hike....you're the LIAR AND SLANDERER.......!! BTW, it's AGAINST THE LAW TO POST ANY MUSICIANS UNION CONTRACT FYI. I'm on many a film including with Brian Wilson playing and discussing our hit of Good Vibrations.....go suck on a lollipop you poor child who has no clue of Studio Musicians and what we do....Brian announced us on those hits back in the late 1990s, and our names are officially put on the sleeves of re-issues....now go grow some balls and grow up! Sag-AFTRA royalty partial list below: click on it to see titles.

Now it's "our" hit of Good Vibrations. IMO, the only people who can refer to Good Vibrations as "our" hit are Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike, Al, and Bruce (or did Bruce even sing on it?).

[c-man]

Her reply:  
Carol Kaye II Yes, Karen, thx, some child troll you're right.......Chris Woods, how dare you call me a liar.....when the pay-stubs of those tunes on my website, go take a hike....you're the LIAR AND SLANDERER.......!! BTW, it's AGAINST THE LAW TO POST ANY MUSICIANS UNION CONTRACT FYI. I'm on many a film including with Brian Wilson playing and discussing our hit of Good Vibrations.....go suck on a lollipop you poor child who has no clue of Studio Musicians and what we do....Brian announced us on those hits back in the late 1990s, and our names are officially put on the sleeves of re-issues....now go grow some balls and grow up! Sag-AFTRA royalty partial list below: click on it to see titles.

Now it's "our" hit of Good Vibrations. IMO, the only people who can refer to Good Vibrations as "our" hit are Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike, Al, and Bruce (or did Bruce even sing on it?).

Bruce sang on it.

[Jukka]

I understand her. She's had a rough couple of years lately, losing her home and so on... And as she probably DID play on some sessions for the song, it's no wonder she thinks she's on the record. Now, it's no wonder she doesn't want to lose that glory, not after so many years.

And, I've said this before, you guys should just leave her be. The historians know the score, that's enough for me.

She sure does have a foul mouth/fingers, though. It's nice to know that being a jerk on the internet is not exclusively for young and middle-aged people.

[debonbon]

I agree with letting her be, in the grand scheme things it's pretty irrelevant really. That said I remember having an argument with her online many years ago, I don't even remember the board now but it must have been 15+ years. I guess she hasn't changed.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Sag-AFTRA royalty partial list below: click on it to see titles.

Ummm... someone needs to tell her that the AFTRA contracts are, as far as I'm aware, for purely vocal sessions.

[edit - she neglected to say that the list shown is also for AFM sessions, so my point is of course invalid]

She unquestionably played on several "GV" sessions, as she's listed on the AFM sheets, but extensive research by Craig has proven that none of those sessions were used in the final edit.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I understand her. She's had a rough couple of years lately, losing her home and so on... And as she probably DID play on some sessions for the song, it's no wonder she thinks she's on the record. Now, it's no wonder she doesn't want to lose that glory, not after so many years.

And, I've said this before, you guys should just leave her be. The historians know the score, that's enough for me.

She sure does have a foul mouth/fingers, though. It's nice to know that being a jerk on the internet is not exclusively for young and middle-aged people.

She's still claiming to play on sessions she simply did not, Beach Boys and other artists. This is not acceptable, irrespective of who she is.

[wilsonart1]

Oh my let it be! Make amends with the silence and the cold!

[bgas]

I understand her. She's had a rough couple of years lately, losing her home and so on... And as she probably DID play on some sessions for the song, it's no wonder she thinks she's on the record. Now, it's no wonder she doesn't want to lose that glory, not after so many years.

And, I've said this before, you guys should just leave her be. The historians know the score, that's enough for me.

She sure does have a foul mouth/fingers, though. It's nice to know that being a jerk on the internet is not exclusively for young and middle-aged people.

I agree with letting her be, in the grand scheme things it's pretty irrelevant really. That said I remember having an argument with her online many years ago, I don't even remember the board now but it must have been 15+ years. I guess she hasn't changed.

Oh my let it be! Make amends with the silence and the cold!

Why on earth should anyone  "let her be" when the easiest resolution is for CK to simply admit she's wrong and stop claiming credit for the work of other musicians.
Lord knows when someone  has the temerityy to claim her work, she's the first to denounce them for trying to steal her credits.

[SurferDownUnder]

Perhaps Carol is bitter that her name is synonymous more in the circles of those who follow music more in depth, for example we know of her because we have an interest in production etc and that has cut any potential larger knowledge of her legacy and as a side effect income. But the average Joe Bloggs will remember Good Vibrations and Surfin' U.S.A as the products of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys genius rather then because of her alleged parts in those songs....

That's how I choose to rationalise her aggression when it comes to production credits, it's not a knock on the Wrecking Crew by any means but when people without in-depth knowledge discuss the Beach Boys biggest song in Good Vibrations, most of the time people will identify it with Brian Wilson and not the supposed session bassist Carol Kaye, just in the same way the average person would identify Get Back as the Beatles song not Billy Preston's even though he was a key member in its overall sound.

[bgas]

Perhaps Carol is bitter that her name is synonymous more in the circles of those who follow music more in depth, for example we know of her because we have an interest in production etc and that has cut any potential larger knowledge of her legacy and as a side effect income. But the average Joe Bloggs will remember Good Vibrations and Surfin' U.S.A as the products of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys genius rather then because of her alleged parts in those songs....

That's how I choose to rationalise her aggression when it comes to production credits, it's not a knock on the Wrecking Crew by any means but when people without in-depth knowledge discuss the Beach Boys biggest song in Good Vibrations, most of the time people will identify it with Brian Wilson and not the supposed session bassist Carol Kaye, just in the same way the average person would identify Get Back as the Beatles song not Billy Preston's even though he was a key member in its overall sound.

They were both just sidemen! They didn't writearrangeproduce the songs. They played on them.  Why should she be known any better, now? She's just an old crone

[SurferDownUnder]

I wholeheartedly agree with you bgas just trying to understand her mindset, you would think she would be keen to mend some the bridges she has burnt as she gets older but alas.

[bgas]

I wholeheartedly agree with you bgas just trying to understand her mindset, you would think she would be keen to mend some the bridges she has burnt as she gets older but alas.

nah, she's too full of herself as the only one righteous enough to have played then. she can't even let the wrecking crew term alone. if it's not about CK it's not worth sh*t.

[Cyncie]

In all honesty, I don't think it's a big surprise to anyone that there were, and are,  session musicians who play for hire on other people's records.  Even as a kid in the 60's I knew that there were whole bands that were created in the studio. Giving those musicians some credit doesn't bother me, but I think, in the process of trying to "de-mythologize" the hit makers, the Wrecking Crew seems to be building their own mythology: They played on ALL the hits. They made these bands what they were!

I don't mind giving credit where credit is due, but to me, there has recently been an air of "It was all just a fraud. The band's didn't even play there own music! WE were the hit makers!" about it. It's especially irritating when they keep repeating that old "The Beach Boys didn't play on their own records" canard.

The Wrecking Crew were very talented session musicians playing other people's songs.  I give them credit for that. But, where the Beach Boys are concerned, I give  Brian and the Boys the credit for all the rest.

[Aum Bop Diddit]

She certainly played on a lot of great records.  More than any of us in here.

[SurferDownUnder]

She certainly played on a lot of great records.  More than any of us in here.

Hey I played bass and sang on a cover of "Bye Bye Baby".... that was a quality recording. I'm sure at least 50 people in New Zealand heard it!

[Mike's Beard]

Perhaps Carol is bitter that her name is synonymous more in the circles of those who follow music more in depth, for example we know of her because we have an interest in production etc and that has cut any potential larger knowledge of her legacy and as a side effect income. But the average Joe Bloggs will remember Good Vibrations and Surfin' U.S.A as the products of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys genius rather then because of her alleged parts in those songs....

That's how I choose to rationalise her aggression when it comes to production credits, it's not a knock on the Wrecking Crew by any means but when people without in-depth knowledge discuss the Beach Boys biggest song in Good Vibrations, most of the time people will identify it with Brian Wilson and not the supposed session bassist Carol Kaye, just in the same way the average person would identify Get Back as the Beatles song not Billy Preston's even though he was a key member in its overall sound.

You don't become a session musican expecting vast fame.

[SurferDownUnder]

Perhaps Carol is bitter that her name is synonymous more in the circles of those who follow music more in depth, for example we know of her because we have an interest in production etc and that has cut any potential larger knowledge of her legacy and as a side effect income. But the average Joe Bloggs will remember Good Vibrations and Surfin' U.S.A as the products of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys genius rather then because of her alleged parts in those songs....

That's how I choose to rationalise her aggression when it comes to production credits, it's not a knock on the Wrecking Crew by any means but when people without in-depth knowledge discuss the Beach Boys biggest song in Good Vibrations, most of the time people will identify it with Brian Wilson and not the supposed session bassist Carol Kaye, just in the same way the average person would identify Get Back as the Beatles song not Billy Preston's even though he was a key member in its overall sound.

You don't become a session musican expecting vast fame.

That's definitely true, but with hindsight it can't be that good of a feeling to know that you are an excellent bassist who could have been a much richer musician in a permanent band, but instead you are fighting in old age to get what you believe is the credit you deserve (even though Carol's claims are dubious). If I were the half the bassist Carol was and I watched Gene Simmons doing what he does for x10 the amount of money I ever made i'm sure some side of me would be bitter.