Hodgepodge

[Douchepool]

The only problem I can think of with 20/20 is that it's just not long enough. There should have been a couple more songs on it.

I made this for personal listening.

Side 1

1. Do It Again
2. We're Together Again
3. I Can Hear Music
4. Bluebirds Over the Mountain
5. Be With Me
6. All I Want to Do
7. Walk On By
8. Old Folks at Home/Ol' Man River

Side 2

9. Sail Plane Song
10. The Nearest Faraway Place
11. Cotton Fields
12. I Went to Sleep
13. Time to Get Alone
14. Our Prayer
15. Cabinessence
16. A Time to Live in Dreams

[guitarfool2002]

That could be debated - At that point in time there were feelings within the group that they could do it without much input, if any at all, from Brian, and where his ideas in the past were a main point of consideration, by this time they simply didn't consider as much of what he was suggesting. They thought they could do it on their own, and that's how they went about business. The "Ol Man River" situation is one of the prime musical examples of this, where Brian had the idea to do this recording a certain way and the Beach Boys basically didn't pay much attention to those wishes or ideas. And the idea (and the song) got shelved.

Really? I`m not sure that ties in with the reality of the situation.

I don`t have the Catch a Wave book to hand but my memory is that the group spent a fair amount of time working on Ol Man River but called time on it when it didn`t seem to be nearing completion.

Carlin says the Boys would drop everything and do anything to help Brian do whatever Brian was willing to do but Brian's cocaine use and obsessive behavior was getting in the way of his productivity.

Do session docs show a lot of recordings for OMR?

That's always the impression I got, both from the Carlin book and what Stephen Desper has commented on. The guys would work on their stuff but drop it the second Brian wanted to try something.

It seems to me that Carlin's info probably came from Stephen Desper in that section.

Since Carlin's book is being referenced, maybe one of you should quote in this thread the description from that book of how work Ol' Man River was stopped, who specifically was named in how that happened, and what Brian said about it decades later.

[Cam Mott]

Somebody had quoted part of it, what happened to it?

"When Brian did get out of bed, his behavior grew increasingly strange and obsessive. He recorded dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River', from the Jerome Kern musical Showboat, constantly finding new combinations of chords, instruments, and voices to alter the feel of the old Broadway standard. "He was always working on it", Stephen Desper remembers. "I definitely recorded that song a lot of times". The guys eventually tired of that, though, and one day Mike announced that he'd had it, thank you very much, and now they were done wasting their time and money on Brian's "Old Man River" experiments. Brian left the studio with his eyes stinging. (And he still remembers how angry it made him: "Mike was really cocky about that one," he complains with a sour smile.  "I remember that much about it.")"

So I guess the group was dropping everything and doing anything, lot of times for Brian on OMR alone, but even they got tired of it and Mike spoke up.

[Douchepool]

Brace yourselves...the THREAD is about to begin.

[Rocket]

Brace yourselves...the THREAD is about to begin.

I love what I have started 

[CenturyDeprived]

Rocket,

I recently posted in the album section my opinions on 20/20.  

I basically said that not every album needs to be a cohesive flowing piece of work ie Pet Sounds, Sgt Peppers, Dark Side of the Moon, Quadrophenia, etc.

Some albums are just collections of songs, and 20/20 is one of these.  It's a collection of singles, newly recorded songs, and Smile outtakes.  But since the quality of the material is so good, it really works.  

Despite the association with Manson, I even like Never Learn Not to Love.  

Personally, I think 20/20 is just another in the string of really strong albums the Beach Boys released between 1968-1973.  

I definitely agree with all of that.

If one is to criticize 20/20 for not being cohesive, then they can't say that Sunflower or Surf's Up are. They are all amazing, but also pretty much all the same. Different in quality of the songs (Sunflower is the best imo), but all the same type of album.

 I totally get what you're saying… And I think that the album probably has the reputation in part because it's a matter of historical fact that the band didn't go into the studio to record an LP. Since we know it is assembled from various parts, that probably makes it easier to point out  that the songs sound quite different from one another, as opposed to the following two albums, which I agree are similarly  not particularly cohesive in terms of styles, but were nevertheless from their orgins  envisioned as proper albums, so they probably get more of a free "cohesiveness" pass for that.  Not that any of this is a bad thing, all three of those are some of my favorite records ever!

[Cam Mott]

No one expects the Comfy THREAD!

I was wondering how much of these OMR sessions are documented. This is a bunch of guys who worked so hard for Brian they did 60+ takes of a few seconds of a song without a complaint, for them to get worn down is saying something.

[alf wiedersehen]

This is as good a thread as any:

So, what's the story behind the two different versions of "Old Man River" that have been released? We have the slow, mainly vocal version on MiC and Hawthorne, CA and we have the uptempo version on the Friends/20/20 twofer. Were they recorded around same time? Are there possibly more versions of this song?

[CenturyDeprived]

Somebody had quoted part of it, what happened to it?

"When Brian did get out of bed, his behavior grew increasingly strange and obsessive. He recorded dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River', from the Jerome Kern musical Showboat, constantly finding new combinations of chords, instruments, and voices to alter the feel of the old Broadway standard. "He was always working on it", Stephen Desper remembers. "I definitely recorded that song a lot of times". The guys eventually tired of that, though, and one day Mike announced that he'd had it, thank you very much, and now they were done wasting their time and money on Brian's "Old Man River" experiments. Brian left the studio with his eyes stinging. (And he still remembers how angry it made him: "Mike was really cocky about that one," he complains with a sour smile.  "I remember that much about it.")"

So I guess the group was dropping everything and doing anything, lot of times for Brian on OMR alone, but even they got tired of it and Mike spoke up.

Perhaps it was all of the guys who got weary after awhile, but one person leading the charge in a tactless way might have gone too far.  Sometimes it's not just about what one says, but *how *one says something, that makes the lasting difference. I know that everybody is human, and everybody is allowed to lose their temper sometimes, but the fact that this incident was remembered so clearly by Brian has to say something. And heaven forbid, suppose it was in any way, shape or form, a pattern. Even giving Mike the benefit of the doubt, maybe it wasn't a pattern. Maybe just this one time.

Still, I don't see why it would be an incredible shock to anyone then, that years later, somebody who has been fingered by Brian himself as exhibiting cocky and hurtful behavior in the studio, might not simply + easily just magically be granted the wish of the mythic alone-in-a-room situation. That's gonna add a layer of complexity to the proceedings. Is anyone actually shocked by this?

[guitarfool2002]

Somebody had quoted part of it, what happened to it?

"When Brian did get out of bed, his behavior grew increasingly strange and obsessive. He recorded dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River', from the Jerome Kern musical Showboat, constantly finding new combinations of chords, instruments, and voices to alter the feel of the old Broadway standard. "He was always working on it", Stephen Desper remembers. "I definitely recorded that song a lot of times". The guys eventually tired of that, though, and one day Mike announced that he'd had it, thank you very much, and now they were done wasting their time and money on Brian's "Old Man River" experiments. Brian left the studio with his eyes stinging. (And he still remembers how angry it made him: "Mike was really cocky about that one," he complains with a sour smile.  "I remember that much about it.")"

So I guess the group was dropping everything and doing anything, lot of times for Brian on OMR alone, but even they got tired of it and Mike spoke up.

It's good to see the full quote, whatever was posted before seemed to leave out the part about Mike.

And how does it become the group had it, when all it said in the book was they tired of it...and Mike was the one who scuttled the thing? They may have tired of it, they probably tired of all the Good Vibrations and Heroes sessions too, but those "tiring" sessions gave them a #1 hit, a top 10 single, and two songs that became staples of the live shows from 67 onward.

Dropping everything and doing anything. What does that include if that's the guess as to what they did at this time?

A lot of unfounded assumptions and conclusions being drawn there, Cam, a lot of them. And the original discussion somehow left out the part about Mike, again I'm glad to see the full telling of the story now available for those reading it who, if based solely on what was posted earlier, might think it was all a case of cocaine use and obsessive behavior.

[Cam Mott]

Somebody had quoted part of it, what happened to it?

"When Brian did get out of bed, his behavior grew increasingly strange and obsessive. He recorded dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River', from the Jerome Kern musical Showboat, constantly finding new combinations of chords, instruments, and voices to alter the feel of the old Broadway standard. "He was always working on it", Stephen Desper remembers. "I definitely recorded that song a lot of times". The guys eventually tired of that, though, and one day Mike announced that he'd had it, thank you very much, and now they were done wasting their time and money on Brian's "Old Man River" experiments. Brian left the studio with his eyes stinging. (And he still remembers how angry it made him: "Mike was really cocky about that one," he complains with a sour smile.  "I remember that much about it.")"

So I guess the group was dropping everything and doing anything, lot of times for Brian on OMR alone, but even they got tired of it and Mike spoke up.

It's good to see the full quote, whatever was posted before seemed to leave out the part about Mike.

And how does it become the group had it, when all it said in the book was they tired of it...and Mike was the one who scuttled the thing? They may have tired of it, they probably tired of all the Good Vibrations and Heroes sessions too, but those "tiring" sessions gave them a #1 hit, a top 10 single, and two songs that became staples of the live shows from 67 onward.

Dropping everything and doing anything. What does that include if that's the guess as to what they did at this time?

A lot of unfounded assumptions and conclusions being drawn there, Cam, a lot of them. And the original discussion somehow left out the part about Mike, again I'm glad to see the full telling of the story now available for those reading it who, if based solely on what was posted earlier, might think it was all a case of cocaine use and obsessive behavior.

Not at all, I thought I saw only the Mike part already quoted in one of the posts before but it is gone now. I was pointing out that there was more to it than just that posted Mike story. Did no one else see it or do and delete it?

How would Mike scuttle anything without the group? Carlin says group was tired of it and that Mike said the group was done wasting their time and money on it.

The "do anything" bit is on the next page in my copy, page 141.

I don't know what Carlin knows about it but he does seem to be making the point that cocaine and obsessive behavior was the problem and not just with one song.

[CenturyDeprived]

Somebody had quoted part of it, what happened to it?

"When Brian did get out of bed, his behavior grew increasingly strange and obsessive. He recorded dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River', from the Jerome Kern musical Showboat, constantly finding new combinations of chords, instruments, and voices to alter the feel of the old Broadway standard. "He was always working on it", Stephen Desper remembers. "I definitely recorded that song a lot of times". The guys eventually tired of that, though, and one day Mike announced that he'd had it, thank you very much, and now they were done wasting their time and money on Brian's "Old Man River" experiments. Brian left the studio with his eyes stinging. (And he still remembers how angry it made him: "Mike was really cocky about that one," he complains with a sour smile.  "I remember that much about it.")"

So I guess the group was dropping everything and doing anything, lot of times for Brian on OMR alone, but even they got tired of it and Mike spoke up.

It's good to see the full quote, whatever was posted before seemed to leave out the part about Mike.

And how does it become the group had it, when all it said in the book was they tired of it...and Mike was the one who scuttled the thing? They may have tired of it, they probably tired of all the Good Vibrations and Heroes sessions too, but those "tiring" sessions gave them a #1 hit, a top 10 single, and two songs that became staples of the live shows from 67 onward.

Dropping everything and doing anything. What does that include if that's the guess as to what they did at this time?

A lot of unfounded assumptions and conclusions being drawn there, Cam, a lot of them. And the original discussion somehow left out the part about Mike, again I'm glad to see the full telling of the story now available for those reading it who, if based solely on what was posted earlier, might think it was all a case of cocaine use and obsessive behavior.

How would Mike scuttle anything without the group? Carlin says group was tired of it and that Mike said the group was done wasting their time and money on it.

Maybe the group were all in fact tired of it, but they were still going along with it (including Mike for a time), and willing to keep up an appearance (for Brian's sake) that they weren't getting tired of it... but perhaps without Mike losing his patience and getting cocky, if he'd simply gone along with the proceedings for awhile longer, the song could have been finished. It's something to consider.   

[guitarfool2002]

Somebody had quoted part of it, what happened to it?

"When Brian did get out of bed, his behavior grew increasingly strange and obsessive. He recorded dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River', from the Jerome Kern musical Showboat, constantly finding new combinations of chords, instruments, and voices to alter the feel of the old Broadway standard. "He was always working on it", Stephen Desper remembers. "I definitely recorded that song a lot of times". The guys eventually tired of that, though, and one day Mike announced that he'd had it, thank you very much, and now they were done wasting their time and money on Brian's "Old Man River" experiments. Brian left the studio with his eyes stinging. (And he still remembers how angry it made him: "Mike was really cocky about that one," he complains with a sour smile.  "I remember that much about it.")"

So I guess the group was dropping everything and doing anything, lot of times for Brian on OMR alone, but even they got tired of it and Mike spoke up.

It's good to see the full quote, whatever was posted before seemed to leave out the part about Mike.

And how does it become the group had it, when all it said in the book was they tired of it...and Mike was the one who scuttled the thing? They may have tired of it, they probably tired of all the Good Vibrations and Heroes sessions too, but those "tiring" sessions gave them a #1 hit, a top 10 single, and two songs that became staples of the live shows from 67 onward.

Dropping everything and doing anything. What does that include if that's the guess as to what they did at this time?

A lot of unfounded assumptions and conclusions being drawn there, Cam, a lot of them. And the original discussion somehow left out the part about Mike, again I'm glad to see the full telling of the story now available for those reading it who, if based solely on what was posted earlier, might think it was all a case of cocaine use and obsessive behavior.

Not at all, I thought I saw only the Mike part already quoted in one of the posts before but it is gone now. I was pointing out that there was more to it than just that posted Mike story. Did no one else see it or do and delete it?

How would Mike scuttle anything without the group? Carlin says group was tired of it and that Mike said the group was done wasting their time and money on it.

The "do anything" bit is on the next page in my copy, page 141.

I don't know what Carlin knows about it but he does seem to be making the point that cocaine and obsessive behavior was the problem and not just with one song.

Well, Mike scuttled this one according to the text above. I see nothing suggesting the other band members did anything beyond "tiring" of working on the song, that's different from declaring *they* had it with the song.

Just so I understand, you're reading this conclusively into what Carlin's book said about Ol Man River, do you also accept the things Carlin wrote and reported about Smile among other things at face value as they way they happened, specifically regarding various situations involving Mike?

[Nicko1234]

Well, Mike scuttled this one according to the text above. I see nothing suggesting the other band members did anything beyond "tiring" of working on the song, that's different from declaring *they* had it with the song.

Just so I understand, you're reading this conclusively into what Carlin's book said about Ol Man River, do you also accept the things Carlin wrote and reported about Smile among other things at face value as they way they happened, specifically regarding various situations involving Mike?

I completely agree that Mike is apparently the one who put the final nail in that song.

But I`m still not sure what you were getting at with regards to, ` At that point in time there were feelings within the group that they could do it without much input, if any at all, from Brian`. That was the point of my post.

[Mike's Beard]

I guess there was a limit to how long the band were willing to indulge Brian by 1969. You can't exactly blame them, by '69 the pressure to claw back their fanbase was high.

[The Shift]

I really, REALLY like 20/20 a LOT.  Never Learn Not to Love was a terrific song.  Loved it actually.  That, or course, before the whole Helter Skelter...Tate-LaBianca Manson horror show tainted the tune.  I mean WOW!!!  Our Prayer and Cabinessence?  Makes it a stellar album right there.  And there was more.

OK...It isn't perfect.  T'was the wrong version of Cotton Fields.  The lead guitar SOUND on Bluebirds totally dated the song right out of the box.  The production isn't quite 'on'...close but not quite.  Nearest Faraway Place needed to be further away.  [a lot further]  But all in all...for me it was the best album after Pet Sounds...right alongside Friends...until Sunflower.  Time to Get Alone [Deep and Wide]?  One of their VERY best tunes ever.  Any album.

Good summation!

[The Shift]

Ol' Man River was one of those exquisities that demonstrated Brian at his subtlest and best. While not part of the Smile sessions, I think of it as being Brian in that similar state of mind, along with Time to Get Alone and a handful of others. If the band really did spend so much time on sessions for it before Mike and/or the band pulled the plug, I hope we get to hear some more.

[CenturyDeprived]

Well, Mike scuttled this one according to the text above. I see nothing suggesting the other band members did anything beyond "tiring" of working on the song, that's different from declaring *they* had it with the song.

Just so I understand, you're reading this conclusively into what Carlin's book said about Ol Man River, do you also accept the things Carlin wrote and reported about Smile among other things at face value as they way they happened, specifically regarding various situations involving Mike?

I completely agree that Mike is apparently the one who put the final nail in that song.

And while I hate to say it, I truthfully don't think it can be underestimated that instances like that may have negatively effected the quantity of Brian's subsequent output at the time as well.

[Nicko1234]

Well, Mike scuttled this one according to the text above. I see nothing suggesting the other band members did anything beyond "tiring" of working on the song, that's different from declaring *they* had it with the song.

Just so I understand, you're reading this conclusively into what Carlin's book said about Ol Man River, do you also accept the things Carlin wrote and reported about Smile among other things at face value as they way they happened, specifically regarding various situations involving Mike?

I completely agree that Mike is apparently the one who put the final nail in that song.

And while I hate to say it, I truthfully don't think it can be underestimated that instances like that may have negatively effected the quantity of Brian's subsequent output at the time as well.

Yes, I`m sure you do.  

Obviously Brian was hurt by that but he was massively involved in the Sunflower sessions and contributed more than an album`s worth of material. It was when that album bombed that he pulled back.

[CenturyDeprived]

Well, Mike scuttled this one according to the text above. I see nothing suggesting the other band members did anything beyond "tiring" of working on the song, that's different from declaring *they* had it with the song.

Just so I understand, you're reading this conclusively into what Carlin's book said about Ol Man River, do you also accept the things Carlin wrote and reported about Smile among other things at face value as they way they happened, specifically regarding various situations involving Mike?

I completely agree that Mike is apparently the one who put the final nail in that song.

And while I hate to say it, I truthfully don't think it can be underestimated that instances like that may have negatively effected the quantity of Brian's subsequent output at the time as well.

Yes, I`m sure you do.  

Obviously Brian was hurt by that but he was massively involved in the Sunflower sessions and contributed more than an album`s worth of material. It was when that album bombed that he pulled back.

I'd have to double check the writing credits, but I don't think Brian's Sunflower involvement would be best quantified as massive.  But yes, that album bombing certainly did not help either.

[Nicko1234]

I said the Sunflower sessions...

He has 7 writing credits on the album itself (a couple of them being generous perhaps) but he had also written or co-written Good Time, I Just Got My Pay, Loop De Loop, When Girls Get Together, Where is She, Soulful Old Man Sunshine, Walkin ( I think this was Brian?), Til I Die etc.

A very prolific period for him.

[Cam Mott]

Somebody had quoted part of it, what happened to it?

"When Brian did get out of bed, his behavior grew increasingly strange and obsessive. He recorded dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River', from the Jerome Kern musical Showboat, constantly finding new combinations of chords, instruments, and voices to alter the feel of the old Broadway standard. "He was always working on it", Stephen Desper remembers. "I definitely recorded that song a lot of times". The guys eventually tired of that, though, and one day Mike announced that he'd had it, thank you very much, and now they were done wasting their time and money on Brian's "Old Man River" experiments. Brian left the studio with his eyes stinging. (And he still remembers how angry it made him: "Mike was really cocky about that one," he complains with a sour smile.  "I remember that much about it.")"

So I guess the group was dropping everything and doing anything, lot of times for Brian on OMR alone, but even they got tired of it and Mike spoke up.

It's good to see the full quote, whatever was posted before seemed to leave out the part about Mike.

And how does it become the group had it, when all it said in the book was they tired of it...and Mike was the one who scuttled the thing? They may have tired of it, they probably tired of all the Good Vibrations and Heroes sessions too, but those "tiring" sessions gave them a #1 hit, a top 10 single, and two songs that became staples of the live shows from 67 onward.

Dropping everything and doing anything. What does that include if that's the guess as to what they did at this time?

A lot of unfounded assumptions and conclusions being drawn there, Cam, a lot of them. And the original discussion somehow left out the part about Mike, again I'm glad to see the full telling of the story now available for those reading it who, if based solely on what was posted earlier, might think it was all a case of cocaine use and obsessive behavior.

Not at all, I thought I saw only the Mike part already quoted in one of the posts before but it is gone now. I was pointing out that there was more to it than just that posted Mike story. Did no one else see it or do and delete it?

How would Mike scuttle anything without the group? Carlin says group was tired of it and that Mike said the group was done wasting their time and money on it.

The "do anything" bit is on the next page in my copy, page 141.

I don't know what Carlin knows about it but he does seem to be making the point that cocaine and obsessive behavior was the problem and not just with one song.

Well, Mike scuttled this one according to the text above. I see nothing suggesting the other band members did anything beyond "tiring" of working on the song, that's different from declaring *they* had it with the song.

Just so I understand, you're reading this conclusively into what Carlin's book said about Ol Man River, do you also accept the things Carlin wrote and reported about Smile among other things at face value as they way they happened, specifically regarding various situations involving Mike?

I read it as Mike agreed with the group and spoke for them. That's the way Carlin writes it: Mike speaks for himself and then speaks for the group.  Either way they worked on it a lot according to Desper. If he means only Mike wanted to stop and the group didn't, how would the rest of the group be prevented from continuing. We can just disagree until someone/something clarifies it.

As I said before "I don't know what Carlin knows about it". (Actually it might be Brian who made that claim about Mike and the group, with Brian's quote being the next thing and all) Do we know that work stopped on OMR with 20/20? It's kind of a BB history thing to claim someone(s) was against doing something but there they are on the tapes singing it all or that they refused to sing something but there they are on tape volunteering to sing the whole song.

Anyways I like hodgepodge.

  

[Jim V.]

Somebody had quoted part of it, what happened to it?

"When Brian did get out of bed, his behavior grew increasingly strange and obsessive. He recorded dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River', from the Jerome Kern musical Showboat, constantly finding new combinations of chords, instruments, and voices to alter the feel of the old Broadway standard. "He was always working on it", Stephen Desper remembers. "I definitely recorded that song a lot of times". The guys eventually tired of that, though, and one day Mike announced that he'd had it, thank you very much, and now they were done wasting their time and money on Brian's "Old Man River" experiments. Brian left the studio with his eyes stinging. (And he still remembers how angry it made him: "Mike was really cocky about that one," he complains with a sour smile.  "I remember that much about it.")"

So I guess the group was dropping everything and doing anything, lot of times for Brian on OMR alone, but even they got tired of it and Mike spoke up.

It's good to see the full quote, whatever was posted before seemed to leave out the part about Mike.

And how does it become the group had it, when all it said in the book was they tired of it...and Mike was the one who scuttled the thing? They may have tired of it, they probably tired of all the Good Vibrations and Heroes sessions too, but those "tiring" sessions gave them a #1 hit, a top 10 single, and two songs that became staples of the live shows from 67 onward.

Dropping everything and doing anything. What does that include if that's the guess as to what they did at this time?

A lot of unfounded assumptions and conclusions being drawn there, Cam, a lot of them. And the original discussion somehow left out the part about Mike, again I'm glad to see the full telling of the story now available for those reading it who, if based solely on what was posted earlier, might think it was all a case of cocaine use and obsessive behavior.

Not at all, I thought I saw only the Mike part already quoted in one of the posts before but it is gone now. I was pointing out that there was more to it than just that posted Mike story. Did no one else see it or do and delete it?

How would Mike scuttle anything without the group? Carlin says group was tired of it and that Mike said the group was done wasting their time and money on it.

The "do anything" bit is on the next page in my copy, page 141.

I don't know what Carlin knows about it but he does seem to be making the point that cocaine and obsessive behavior was the problem and not just with one song.

Well, Mike scuttled this one according to the text above. I see nothing suggesting the other band members did anything beyond "tiring" of working on the song, that's different from declaring *they* had it with the song.

Just so I understand, you're reading this conclusively into what Carlin's book said about Ol Man River, do you also accept the things Carlin wrote and reported about Smile among other things at face value as they way they happened, specifically regarding various situations involving Mike?

I read it as Mike agreed with the group and spoke for them. That's the way Carlin writes it: Mike speaks for himself and then speaks for the group.  Either way they worked on it a lot according to Desper. If he means only Mike wanted to stop and the group didn't how would the rest of the group be prevented from continuing. We can just disagree until someone/something clarifies it.

As I said before "I don't know what Carlin knows about it". Do we know that work stopped on OMR with 20/20? It's kind of a BB history thing to claim someone(s) was against doing something but there they are on the tapes singing it all or that they refused to sing something but there they are on tape volunteering to sing the whole song.

Anyways I like hodgepodge.

 

Do you also think the "Macarena" is four times better than "Kokomo" since the former sold about four times the amount of the latter? I noticed you decided never to answer me or CenturyDeprived in the other thread. Seemed pretty odd that you all of a sudden stopped answering.

[Cam Mott]

If you are right, it is then Popular Music which was four times as popular. Are we done now?

[Jim V.]

If you are right, it is then Popular Music which was four times as popular. Are we done now?

I'm not part of that equation. I don't think sales equals quality. You were the one who said it. If you disagree with your own premise feel free to admit it.