Hodgepodge

[Rocket]

I was going to put this in the album disussion section, but it's not a very active section, so I'll post this here. Lately, I have been listening to a lot of 20/20, and boy, it is a phenomenal album. I love pretty much every song, with the exception of "Never Learn Not To Love".

One of the big criticisms I have seen for the album is that it is a hodgepodge. Which I agree with. I don't think anyone can argue that fact. But what I don't understand is why Sunflower or Surf's Up don't carry a similar criticism. Don't get me wrong, I love those albums too. But they don't seem extremely cohesive to me either. Sure, 20/20 has some Smile tracks on it. But so do Sunflower and Surf's Up.

Can an album with "Cool, Cool Water", "Add Some Music", and "Got To Know The Woman" be considered cohesive?
How about "Surf's Up", "Disney Girls 1957" and "Student Demonstration Time"?

Again, I love all 3 of these albums. Some of the Beach Boys' best. But I'm having trouble understanding why 20/20 is the only one to recieve this criticism, when all 3 have a variety of tracks that wouldn't necessarily fit together.

[CenturyDeprived]

I was going to put this in the album disussion section, but it's not a very active section, so I'll post this here. Lately, I have been listening to a lot of 20/20, and boy, it is a phenomenal album. I love pretty much every song, with the exception of "Never Learn Not To Love".

One of the big criticisms I have seen for the album is that it is a hodgepodge. Which I agree with. I don't think anyone can argue that fact. But what I don't understand is why Sunflower or Surf's Up don't carry a similar criticism. Don't get me wrong, I love those albums too. But they don't seem extremely cohesive to me either. Sure, 20/20 has some Smile tracks on it. But so do Sunflower and Surf's Up.

Can an album with "Cool, Cool Water", "Add Some Music", and "Got To Know The Woman" be considered cohesive?
How about "Surf's Up", "Disney Girls 1957" and "Student Demonstration Time"?

Again, I love all 3 of these albums. Some of the Beach Boys' best. But I'm having trouble understanding why 20/20 is the only one to recieve this criticism, when all 3 have a variety of tracks that wouldn't necessarily fit together.

To each his own, but I really think that "Never Learn Not To Love"  is a stellar track with a great production.

Do you truly think it's a subpar/lame song, or do you think that your feelings might be colored by the cowriting history behind it?

[Rocket]

I was going to put this in the album disussion section, but it's not a very active section, so I'll post this here. Lately, I have been listening to a lot of 20/20, and boy, it is a phenomenal album. I love pretty much every song, with the exception of "Never Learn Not To Love".

One of the big criticisms I have seen for the album is that it is a hodgepodge. Which I agree with. I don't think anyone can argue that fact. But what I don't understand is why Sunflower or Surf's Up don't carry a similar criticism. Don't get me wrong, I love those albums too. But they don't seem extremely cohesive to me either. Sure, 20/20 has some Smile tracks on it. But so do Sunflower and Surf's Up.

Can an album with "Cool, Cool Water", "Add Some Music", and "Got To Know The Woman" be considered cohesive?
How about "Surf's Up", "Disney Girls 1957" and "Student Demonstration Time"?

Again, I love all 3 of these albums. Some of the Beach Boys' best. But I'm having trouble understanding why 20/20 is the only one to recieve this criticism, when all 3 have a variety of tracks that wouldn't necessarily fit together.

To each his own, but I really think that "Never Learn Not To Love"  is a stellar track with a great production.

Do you truly think it's a subpar/lame song, or do you think that your feelings might be colored by the cowriting history behind it?

Oh, it's got amazing production. But I'm just not a huge fan of the song itself. Doesn't really have to do with Manson. In fact, his cowriting makes it more interesting. But I don't like the actual song, that's all. Maybe I will get it one day.

[KDS]

Rocket,

I recently posted in the album section my opinions on 20/20.  

I basically said that not every album needs to be a cohesive flowing piece of work ie Pet Sounds, Sgt Peppers, Dark Side of the Moon, Quadrophenia, etc.

Some albums are just collections of songs, and 20/20 is one of these.  It's a collection of singles, newly recorded songs, and Smile outtakes.  But since the quality of the material is so good, it really works.  

Despite the association with Manson, I even like Never Learn Not to Love.  

Personally, I think 20/20 is just another in the string of really strong albums the Beach Boys released between 1968-1973.  

[Rocket]

Rocket,

I recently posted in the album section my opinions on 20/20.  

I basically said that not every album needs to be a cohesive flowing piece of work ie Pet Sounds, Sgt Peppers, Dark Side of the Moon, Quadrophenia, etc.

Some albums are just collections of songs, and 20/20 is one of these.  It's a collection of singles, newly recorded songs, and Smile outtakes.  But since the quality of the material is so good, it really works.  

Despite the association with Manson, I even like Never Learn Not to Love.  

Personally, I think 20/20 is just another in the string of really strong albums the Beach Boys released between 1968-1973.  

I definitely agree with all of that.

If one is to criticize 20/20 for not being cohesive, then they can't say that Sunflower or Surf's Up are. They are all amazing, but also pretty much all the same. Different in quality of the songs (Sunflower is the best imo), but all the same type of album.

[Mike's Beard]

I'd say 20/20 is the start of The BB's second run of classic albums. If only Brian had got it together enough to finish Can't Wait Too Long or Ol' Man River off and included it instead of Bluebirds Over the Mountain it would have been a 5/5 album.

[The Shift]

20/20 has been a big fave since I first heard it decades ago but I think the hodge-lodge tag stocks not because the songs are so stylistically different but because they don't sound like they even come from the same band/studio/mastering process. It's more like a "various artists" release and sounds like it was out together over a decade rather than a couple or three years. Fortunately it is at least as good as the sum of its parts.

[guitarfool2002]

I'd say 20/20 is the start of The BB's second run of classic albums. If only Brian had got it together enough to finish Can't Wait Too Long or Ol' Man River off and included it instead of Bluebirds Over the Mountain it would have been a 5/5 album.

The other band members wanted nothing to do with Ol' Man River or Brian's ideas for it after a certain point in the process, which is why it never made it to an album.

[Mike's Beard]

The guys had been putting out non album a-sides for quite a few months, 20/20 just rounds them all up. If you take into account that the 2 Smile tracks had additional work done on them then all the other tracks come from the same timeframe.

The other band members wanted nothing to do with Ol' Man River or Brian's ideas for it after a certain point in the process, which is why it never made it to an album.

True, I just wish Brian had put his foot down. He WAS still the leader.

[guitarfool2002]

The guys had been putting out non album a-sides for quite a few months, 20/20 just rounds them all up. If you take into account that the 2 Smile tracks had additional work done on them then all the other tracks come from the same timeframe.

The other band members wanted nothing to do with Ol' Man River or Brian's ideas for it after a certain point in the process, which is why it never made it to an album.

True, I just wish Brian had put his foot down. He WAS still the leader.

That could be debated - At that point in time there were feelings within the group that they could do it without much input, if any at all, from Brian, and where his ideas in the past were a main point of consideration, by this time they simply didn't consider as much of what he was suggesting. They thought they could do it on their own, and that's how they went about business. The "Ol Man River" situation is one of the prime musical examples of this, where Brian had the idea to do this recording a certain way and the Beach Boys basically didn't pay much attention to those wishes or ideas. And the idea (and the song) got shelved.

[buddhahat]

Personally I think surfs up holds together extremely well as an album. The songs flow perfectly, with (imo) the exception of student demonstration time. Sunflower also has a sheen over the tracks that makes it all feel part of the same project. 20/20 does feel like a hodgepodge in contrast. To me at least.

[Nicko1234]

That could be debated - At that point in time there were feelings within the group that they could do it without much input, if any at all, from Brian, and where his ideas in the past were a main point of consideration, by this time they simply didn't consider as much of what he was suggesting. They thought they could do it on their own, and that's how they went about business. The "Ol Man River" situation is one of the prime musical examples of this, where Brian had the idea to do this recording a certain way and the Beach Boys basically didn't pay much attention to those wishes or ideas. And the idea (and the song) got shelved.

Really? I`m not sure that ties in with the reality of the situation.

I don`t have the Catch a Wave book to hand but my memory is that the group spent a fair amount of time working on Ol Man River but called time on it when it didn`t seem to be nearing completion.

[Cam Mott]

Maybe the Boys were wanting him to get off the pot and finish OMR for release? Weren't they broke at the time and obviously needing something for an album (hence the "hodge podge")?

[Moon Dawg]

Personally I think surfs up holds together extremely well as an album. The songs flow perfectly, with (imo) the exception of student demonstration time. Sunflower also has a sheen over the tracks that makes it all feel part of the same project. 20/20 does feel like a hodgepodge in contrast. To me at least.

 100% agree

[kookadams]

20/20 is definitely a collection, same with Light album and Keepin the summer alive, only dif is that 20/20 is a great comp.

[c-man]

Dennis once said 20/20 was the only album that embarrassed him through-and-through (granted, this was before MIU and KTSA come into being), because they had to find little bits and pieces of things that Brian had started and finish them off to put the thing together. I guess he felt, in this case, that the end didn't justify the means. May seem silly for an outsider to feel that way, though - and I agree with you, it's a great album - one of my favorites.

[Mike's Beard]

I figured he'd be more embarrassed by his Manson cover.

[Nicko1234]

I would say that the 2 Smile tracks at the end do stand out a lot more than the closing songs on either Sunflower or Surf`s Up.

And I think the other tracks hand together less well also.

There are a lot of fine songs and individually they are probably better than those on the Friends album. But I don`t think they make for a cohesive listening experience.

[c-man]

I figured he'd be more embarrassed by his Manson cover.

I would think "disturbed", but not embarrassed.

[Cam Mott]

That could be debated - At that point in time there were feelings within the group that they could do it without much input, if any at all, from Brian, and where his ideas in the past were a main point of consideration, by this time they simply didn't consider as much of what he was suggesting. They thought they could do it on their own, and that's how they went about business. The "Ol Man River" situation is one of the prime musical examples of this, where Brian had the idea to do this recording a certain way and the Beach Boys basically didn't pay much attention to those wishes or ideas. And the idea (and the song) got shelved.

Really? I`m not sure that ties in with the reality of the situation.

I don`t have the Catch a Wave book to hand but my memory is that the group spent a fair amount of time working on Ol Man River but called time on it when it didn`t seem to be nearing completion.

Carlin says the Boys would drop everything and do anything to help Brian do whatever Brian was willing to do but Brian's cocaine use and obsessive behavior was getting in the way of his productivity.

Do session docs show a lot of recordings for OMR?

[Mike's Beard]

That's always the impression I got, both from the Carlin book and what Stephen Desper has commented on. The guys would work on their stuff but drop it the second Brian wanted to try something.

[Cam Mott]

That's always the impression I got, both from the Carlin book and what Stephen Desper has commented on. The guys would work on their stuff but drop it the second Brian wanted to try something.

It seems to me that Carlin's info probably came from Stephen Desper in that section.

[CarlTheVoice]

How can someone be embarrassed about something so beautifully epic as Time To Get Alone?! Yes it was 'stolen' from Three Dog Night but it's not exactly a 'scrap' is it? It's a song that was worthy of a single release. It frustrates me so much that the wider world doesn't know about this one.

20/20 is my favourite album. I don't see it as a hodgepodge. To me it's simply an album full of songs that make me happy and is one I would happily recommend to non BB listeners.

[kookadams]

Collection or not its a solid lp, Americans at that had turned a deaf ear to rockNroll but the BBs were sellin like hotcakes in Europe and elsewhere.

[Lee Marshall]

I really, REALLY like 20/20 a LOT.  Never Learn Not to Love was a terrific song.  Loved it actually.  That, or course, before the whole Helter Skelter...Tate-LaBianca Manson horror show tainted the tune.  I mean WOW!!!  Our Prayer and Cabinessence?  Makes it a stellar album right there.  And there was more.

OK...It isn't perfect.  T'was the wrong version of Cotton Fields.  The lead guitar SOUND on Bluebirds totally dated the song right out of the box.  The production isn't quite 'on'...close but not quite.  Nearest Faraway Place needed to be further away.  [a lot further]  But all in all...for me it was the best album after Pet Sounds...right alongside Friends...until Sunflower.  Time to Get Alone [Deep and Wide]?  One of their VERY best tunes ever.  Any album.