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Author Topic: The album-wise comparison of the BBs and J&D:  (Read 4727 times)
kookadams
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« on: April 21, 2015, 08:18:18 PM »

Bu the end of 64 the beach boys had eight albums if ya count concert and the xmas lp, jan&dean had two orig lp's with drag city and ride the wild surf, couple cover albums with lil old lady and deadmans curve, mostly albums to back the singles but even tho they were around two yrs before the beach boys brian's co writing really blew em up, such a shame how almos forty years jan.had to live like that. Wonder if they even tried to persecute the owner of the truck.
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Lee Marshall
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2015, 08:30:30 PM »

Don't forget Jan and Dean Meet Batman. Evil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oILAwDbch8c
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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2015, 08:46:12 PM »

Bu the end of 64 the beach boys had eight albums if ya count concert and the xmas lp, jan&dean had two orig lp's with drag city and ride the wild surf, couple cover albums with lil old lady and deadmans curve, mostly albums to back the singles but even tho they were around two yrs before the beach boys brian's co writing really blew em up, such a shame how almos forty years jan.had to live like that. Wonder if they even tried to persecute the owner of the truck.

Wait. I thought the accident was Jan's fault. So why would they prosecute the owner of the truck?

Also, let's be honest about Jan & Dean. By the time of Jan's accident they were basically done, at least as any kind of real force. Jan was already recording stuff like "In the Still of the Night" around the time before his accident happened. They were not headed back for the top of the charts. Not to mention the fact that Jan was recording right-wing dreck like "The Universal Coward" and "Only a Boy", songs that supported the Vietnam War. Yuck. Puke.

However, I do have to say that "Girl You're Blowing My Mind" was started before the accident and it truly is a lost '60s classic. It truly should have been released and become a hit for Jan & Dean, despite the fact that neither of their voices is on it. It was a very, very nice pop song by Jan and showed that even early after the accident, he still had the goods to make some nice stuff. However, even if it had been released, it probably woulda suffered the same fate as other post accident Jan & Dean recordings, and tanked chart wise.
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2015, 10:12:12 PM »

Bu the end of 64 the beach boys had eight albums if ya count concert and the xmas lp, jan&dean had two orig lp's with drag city and ride the wild surf, couple cover albums with lil old lady and deadmans curve, mostly albums to back the singles but even tho they were around two yrs before the beach boys brian's co writing really blew em up, such a shame how almos forty years jan.had to live like that. Wonder if they even tried to persecute the owner of the truck.

My recall is that Jan was driving way too fast (he'd just failed to get a deferment from his draft board - he was going to Viet Nam) and drove into the back of a stationary truck on a straight piece of road. Think I read somewhere that one of the knock-off wheel nuts on his car came off too. Whatever, I think that your comment about the truck owner is... ill-advised.
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kookadams
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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2015, 01:04:41 AM »

The comment about the truck was just to see if the thread would get consumed all the way thru. And I agree with the first reply that they were pretty much done at that point, esp when their last record was a promo for Batman and the folk covers the yr before; 63/4 were their peak yrs no matter how ya view it. I just look at it in the sense that theyd put out a killer single and then an album to accompany it with said single and a slew of covers, I.e. surf city the single and then the lp, same w deadmans curve and lil old lady BUT w drag city and ride the wild surf they were actual full albums of orig cuts.
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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2015, 01:29:16 AM »

I really tried to like Carnival of Sound and appreciate it as a lost classic but there simply is too much filler on it. Mulholland, Fan Tan, Blowing My Mind - all great stuff, but Tijuana? Yakety Yak? Seriously? Also, Only a Boy is so ridiculous it almost sounds like a parody of Ballad of the Green Berets.
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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2015, 12:15:54 PM »

<<The comment about the truck was just to see if the thread would get consumed all the way thru. And I agree with the first reply that they were pretty much done at that point, esp when their last record was a promo for Batman and the folk covers the yr before; 63/4 were their peak yrs no matter how ya view it. I just look at it in the sense that theyd put out a killer single and then an album to accompany it with said single and a slew of covers, I.e. surf city the single and then the lp, same w deadmans curve and lil old lady BUT w drag city and ride the wild surf they were actual full albums of orig cuts.>>

This is historical revisionism.  And Jan & Dean were far from "done" in 1965.  Music was changing radically that year.  Throughout their careers, J&D had always followed trends, thus, Doo-Wop between 59-62, Surf, then drag, etc.  Jan & Dean followed trends because, increasingly, they had become satirists. early forerunners of Flo & Eddie and Frank Zappa.  Even their peak year for hits, 1964, was made up of rock & roll satires... Deadman's Curve (sends up Car crash songs), Little Old Lady and Anaheim Azuza... (send up drag racing), Sidewalk Surfin' (a spoof on surfing), Album cuts like Bucket T, Horace the Swingin' School Bus Driver, Freeway Flyer, Submarine Races, all comic.

Liberty was putting pressure on Jan to cut more "serious" singles and, for a while, he went along.  Folk & Roll (1965) was an attempt to both cash in on and satirize the Folk sound.  While - as with many artists - the did a certain amount of covers (Yesterday, Turn Turn Turn, It Ain't Me Babe, Eve of Destruction) many of the standout cuts were new originals.  Sloan & Barri wrote the big hit I Found A Girl for the album.  And this record also saw the first recording of Where Were You When I Needed You, later a big hit for The Grass Roots.  And Hang On Sloopy and Folk City were serious send-ups of folk rock.  So was The Universal Coward, a send-up of Glen Campbell's  Universal Soldier.  There was a single - a pivotal turning point on the album  - called A Beginning to An End.  This ode to death in childbirth was quite serious, a real downer, and is the track that caused Dean to leave the studio in disgust and go down and sing on Barbara Ann with the Beach Boys.  It also failed to chart and pushed the duo even farther into satire land.

Jan & Dean were also set to star in their own feature film, Easy Come, Easy Go, for Paramount.  The production, sadly, was sidelined on the first day, after a tragic train crash in Chatsworth, during production.  Jan was badly injured, which is why you see him with crutches on the Folk & Roll LP.

JAN & DEAN MEET BATMAN was not a "promo" for the TV show.  It was a parody of the TV show, complete with comic songs and sketches featuring "Captain Jan & Dean the Boy Blunder."  A comic rock opera if you will.  And it was so satiric that DC Comics made Jan & Dean pull the original sketches (where they played Batman & Robin) and replace them with the aforementioned Captain Jan & Dean sketches.

FILET OF SOUL was their epic... a balls-to-the-walls send up of night club shows in general, and theirs, specifically.  The first version contained only 4 songs.  The rest was filled up with false starts, bad jokes, sound effects, lengthy and lunatic band intros and various other bits and pieces.  It was an anti-live album, as edgy for 1965 as Head was for the Monkees three years later.  Liberty, naturally, refused to release it.  The best bits can be found on side 4 of the Jan & Dean Anthology album. 

By March of 1966, they had a TV series slated for the fall on ABC. based on the success of their ON THE RUN pilot for 20th Century-Fox.  They were to go up against The Monkees.  And they were getting ready to form their own label, to be distributed by Lou Adler's Dunhill Records (one of the most successful labels at the time, with the Mamas & The Papas and Barry McGuire, among others).  Girl, You're Blowin' My Mind was to have been one of the tracks slated for their first J&D/Dunhill album, along with their satirical spin on Louisiana Man.

Jan had completed one last "serious" track, as well... his arrangement of the Beatles Norwegian Wood.  At the time, many artists had hits with Beatles album cuts; NW wasn't a single for the fab four.  In May, with Jan in the hospital, Liberty let Dean pick the B side.  He did a quick remix of the 1963 Drag City cut "Popsicle" and conducted a one man campaign to get radio stations to play it as the A side, in time for summer.  Popsicle made it into the top 30, despite the lack of any promotion, other than Dean's, which ain't bad for an obscure 3 year old album cut.

So I'd say Jan & Dean  were far from "done" in 1965/66. 
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Lee Marshall
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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2015, 12:24:35 PM »

Right on Steve...   Wink

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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

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« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2015, 12:28:54 PM »

And let's hang on, might as well...
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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2015, 12:42:41 PM »

And let's hang on, might as well...
Steve, didn't Dean push the Popsicle side because Liberty picked the worst mix of Norwegian Wood?
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2015, 01:07:13 PM »

Bu the end of 64 the beach boys had eight albums if ya count concert and the xmas lp, jan&dean had two orig lp's with drag city and ride the wild surf, couple cover albums with lil old lady and deadmans curve, mostly albums to back the singles but even tho they were around two yrs before the beach boys brian's co writing really blew em up, such a shame how almos forty years jan.had to live like that. Wonder if they even tried to persecute the owner of the truck.

My recall is that Jan was driving way too fast (he'd just failed to get a deferment from his draft board - he was going to Viet Nam) and drove into the back of a stationary truck on a straight piece of road. Think I read somewhere that one of the knock-off wheel nuts on his car came off too. Whatever, I think that your comment about the truck owner is... ill-advised.

He was probably going to end up in Vietnam, but that can't be stated with certainty. Many were drafted in that era and did get lucky and ended up Stateside or In Europe. A very good chance he would have ended up there, but you can't state that he WAS going there.


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Steve Latshaw
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2015, 01:12:22 PM »

<<Steve, didn't Dean push the Popsicle side because Liberty picked the worst mix of Norwegian Wood?>>

Dave Beard could answer this better than I could.  I know Dean didn't even like the idea of doing a Beatles cover of the song; a few years back he said to me, "Who, at the time, wanted to hear us do Norwegian Wood?"  I know he simply felt that Popsicle, with a remix, could be more commercial as a summertime single.  And it was, even generating a new album, which, despite the hideous front cover and being culled from earlier albums, is still a pretty good summer record.  I personally liked Jan's arrangement of Norwegian Wood; at least the lush stereo version on the otherwise awful "official version" of Filet of Soul.  From what I've read, he spent months on it.  I've heard a much sparser arrangement from the original version of Filet of Soul.  But Dean's take was not about the mix of the song, but rather the song itself.  He didn't think it would be a hit.
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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2015, 01:14:55 PM »

As I understand it, Jan lost his medical school deferment because of the Chatsworth train injury, which caused him to step away from med school for a short period of time.  One of those red tape traps.  Someone else may have more information.
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kookadams
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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2015, 03:08:16 PM »

I know I meant how all their albums were pretty much packagings of the single and cover songs except Drag City & Ride the Wild Surf were full orig albums with more than a couple/few songs written by jan.
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2015, 03:57:52 PM »

 Dead Man's Curve/The New Girl in School is a fully realized album, nicely divided into car and school sides. Jan and Dean's Pop Symphony album is a pleasant mood piece IMO.

  The Beach Boys will always trump Jan & Dean, but where the duo were headed before 4-12-66 remains an interesting question.

  Why does R&R HoF gatekeeper Jann Wenner hate Jan & Dean? Politics? The DC5 are in and it is clear that "Surf City" and "Dead Man's Curve" had more lasting cultural impact than any DC5 hit one cares to mention, or remember.

 "Bucket T" is good one, btw.
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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2015, 04:31:58 PM »

Bucket T, Three Window Coupe Rockin Little Roadster, B Gas RIckshaw (instrumental), My Mighty GTO, Hey Little Freshman, It's As Easy as 1-2-3 are all great J&D originals from Deadman's Curve.

Ride the Wild Surf had Waimea Bay, The Restless Surfer, Surfin' Wild, Down at Malibu Beach, the Submarine Races and the CLASSIC surf ballad A Surfer's Dream.

Little Old Lady had Horace, When It's Over, Move Out Little Mustang and One Piece Topless Bathing Suit as originals...

Folk & Roll - I Found A Girl, I Can't Wait to Love You, It's A Shame to Say Goodbye, Where Were You When I Needed You, A Beginning from An End, Universal Coward and Folk City.

On Batman, the only covers were an instrumental version of the Batman theme... and a hilariously bizarre take on Flight of the Bumblebee called Flight of the Batmobile.
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2015, 05:01:45 PM »

<<The comment about the truck was just to see if the thread would get consumed all the way thru. And I agree with the first reply that they were pretty much done at that point, esp when their last record was a promo for Batman and the folk covers the yr before; 63/4 were their peak yrs no matter how ya view it. I just look at it in the sense that theyd put out a killer single and then an album to accompany it with said single and a slew of covers, I.e. surf city the single and then the lp, same w deadmans curve and lil old lady BUT w drag city and ride the wild surf they were actual full albums of orig cuts.>>

This is historical revisionism.  And Jan & Dean were far from "done" in 1965.  Music was changing radically that year.  Throughout their careers, J&D had always followed trends, thus, Doo-Wop between 59-62, Surf, then drag, etc.  Jan & Dean followed trends because, increasingly, they had become satirists. early forerunners of Flo & Eddie and Frank Zappa.  Even their peak year for hits, 1964, was made up of rock & roll satires... Deadman's Curve (sends up Car crash songs), Little Old Lady and Anaheim Azuza... (send up drag racing), Sidewalk Surfin' (a spoof on surfing), Album cuts like Bucket T, Horace the Swingin' School Bus Driver, Freeway Flyer, Submarine Races, all comic.

Liberty was putting pressure on Jan to cut more "serious" singles and, for a while, he went along.  Folk & Roll (1965) was an attempt to both cash in on and satirize the Folk sound.  While - as with many artists - the did a certain amount of covers (Yesterday, Turn Turn Turn, It Ain't Me Babe, Eve of Destruction) many of the standout cuts were new originals.  Sloan & Barri wrote the big hit I Found A Girl for the album.  And this record also saw the first recording of Where Were You When I Needed You, later a big hit for The Grass Roots.  And Hang On Sloopy and Folk City were serious send-ups of folk rock.  So was The Universal Coward, a send-up of Glen Campbell's  Universal Soldier.  There was a single - a pivotal turning point on the album  - called A Beginning to An End.  This ode to death in childbirth was quite serious, a real downer, and is the track that caused Dean to leave the studio in disgust and go down and sing on Barbara Ann with the Beach Boys.  It also failed to chart and pushed the duo even farther into satire land.

Jan & Dean were also set to star in their own feature film, Easy Come, Easy Go, for Paramount.  The production, sadly, was sidelined on the first day, after a tragic train crash in Chatsworth, during production.  Jan was badly injured, which is why you see him with crutches on the Folk & Roll LP.

JAN & DEAN MEET BATMAN was not a "promo" for the TV show.  It was a parody of the TV show, complete with comic songs and sketches featuring "Captain Jan & Dean the Boy Blunder."  A comic rock opera if you will.  And it was so satiric that DC Comics made Jan & Dean pull the original sketches (where they played Batman & Robin) and replace them with the aforementioned Captain Jan & Dean sketches.

FILET OF SOUL was their epic... a balls-to-the-walls send up of night club shows in general, and theirs, specifically.  The first version contained only 4 songs.  The rest was filled up with false starts, bad jokes, sound effects, lengthy and lunatic band intros and various other bits and pieces.  It was an anti-live album, as edgy for 1965 as Head was for the Monkees three years later.  Liberty, naturally, refused to release it.  The best bits can be found on side 4 of the Jan & Dean Anthology album. 

By March of 1966, they had a TV series slated for the fall on ABC. based on the success of their ON THE RUN pilot for 20th Century-Fox.  They were to go up against The Monkees.  And they were getting ready to form their own label, to be distributed by Lou Adler's Dunhill Records (one of the most successful labels at the time, with the Mamas & The Papas and Barry McGuire, among others).  Girl, You're Blowin' My Mind was to have been one of the tracks slated for their first J&D/Dunhill album, along with their satirical spin on Louisiana Man.

Jan had completed one last "serious" track, as well... his arrangement of the Beatles Norwegian Wood.  At the time, many artists had hits with Beatles album cuts; NW wasn't a single for the fab four.  In May, with Jan in the hospital, Liberty let Dean pick the B side.  He did a quick remix of the 1963 Drag City cut "Popsicle" and conducted a one man campaign to get radio stations to play it as the A side, in time for summer.  Popsicle made it into the top 30, despite the lack of any promotion, other than Dean's, which ain't bad for an obscure 3 year old album cut.

So I'd say Jan & Dean  were far from "done" in 1965/66. 
yup that's what I heard, they were slotted to have a tv show,,,it's a shame it didn't happen, also I must admit that the released version of "Filet" reeks of the record company thinking "we think that Jan may die so we need an album so that it will sell like hot cakes, oh yeah by the way put 'Deadmans curve' on it while your at it since he was in a car accident." all over it. Carnival of sound was okay and Save for a rainy day was pretty good although the mono mix sounded bad to my ears.. also check out some of Jan's songs from the 70's he actually had some good stuff..
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2015, 05:17:45 PM »

Dead Man's Curve/The New Girl in School is a fully realized album, nicely divided into car and school sides. Jan and Dean's Pop Symphony album is a pleasant mood piece IMO.

  The Beach Boys will always trump Jan & Dean, but where the duo were headed before 4-12-66 remains an interesting question.

  Why does R&R HoF gatekeeper Jann Wenner hate Jan & Dean? Politics? The DC5 are in and it is clear that "Surf City" and "Dead Man's Curve" had more lasting cultural impact than any DC5 hit one cares to mention, or remember.

 "Bucket T" is good one, btw.
Which begs the question to Kook, how much digging did you do before starting this thread? A little, a little less than that, none?
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On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2015, 05:27:48 PM »

"You really know how to hurt a guy" is a pretty song.
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Jim V.
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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2015, 08:54:24 PM »

I wanna add in a bit more of my opinion on Jan (and a little bit of Dean).

First off, Jan has to have been one of the biggest "chickenhawks" around. And if anybody doesn't know what that means, basically, it's when somebody strongly supports a war but then at the same time tries to avoid service while being of the appropriate age. So it's quiiiiiiite rich that Jan was going around writing and performing songs like "The Universal Coward" and "Only a Boy" while trying to weasel his way out of fighting in this war that he was on record (literally) heartily supporting. Certainly would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he never got in his car that fateful day. Now, we must remember that after the accident he did seem quite taken with the "hippie" ethos and whatnot. He seemed to be quite into the flower power thing. Although "Only a Boy" was released as an a-side with one of his newer compositions on the b-side, I get the feeling that "Only a Boy" was only issued as a single because it had Jan on the lead vocal unlike all the other new stuff.

"You really know how to hurt a guy" is a pretty song.

Sure is. Probably my favorite Jan & Dean song.
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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2015, 04:40:02 AM »

  Is there a chance "Universal Coward" had an element of satire, especially considering J&D were in that bag at the time?

   If not satire, then we can connect the dots as to why Jann Wenner has made it part of his life mission to exclude J&D from the R&R HoF.

  "How I Love Her" and "Ocean Park Angel" were good post accident efforts from Jan. "Angel" could have been a hit with promotion.
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« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2015, 07:59:08 AM »

<<First off, Jan has to have been one of the biggest "chickenhawks" around. And if anybody doesn't know what that means, basically, it's when somebody strongly supports a war but then at the same time tries to avoid service while being of the appropriate age. So it's quiiiiiiite rich that Jan was going around writing and performing songs like "The Universal Coward" and "Only a Boy" while trying to weasel his way out of fighting in this war that he was on record (literally) heartily supporting.>>

This is a simplistic view, at best.  And it has everything to do with this being 2015, some 50 years later, when Jan, sadly, is not here to defend himself against such an insult.  This post lacks the perspective of it being 1965, and all the confusion, in this country, at that time.   In 1965 Vietnam was not yet perceived by the majority of Americans as the mess it became.  Most Americans, without benefit of 2015 (or even 1969) hindsight, believed, in their heart, that we were fighting the good fight against communist expansion in Southeast Asia, which, at the time, was the scary elephant in the room.   

As for Jan being "a chickenhawk," it's pretty well established that his politics were conservative which, as I understand it, is not yet illegal in this country.  He had a successful career going and was well on his way to becoming a medical doctor.  Unlike some others, including a couple of former Presidents, he wasn't trying to "weasel out" of going.  He was playing by the rules and operating under a medical school deferment.  For him to have "weaseled" his way out of the draft suggests that he became a med student to avoid it.  Which is absurd.  He was in med school because he wanted to be a Doctor and surgeon and was smart enough and worked hard enough to balance it with his music career.  He busted his ass to achieve and excel at both.  And he lost that deferment, due to a movie accident which required he drop out of school for a period of time.  You can't call someone a "chickenhawk" for playing by the rules.  We don't know if he would have taken unusual steps to avoid or fight his being drafted because he never got the chance.  He could have gone the way of Carl Wilson, and claimed conscientious objector status.  Or, like Gary Lewis, he could have gone.  He might even have ended up a medic. 
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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2015, 08:53:54 AM »

Jan as producer is a somewhat neglected figure. I'd put him in the same league as Terry Melcher, Gary Usher, and Lou Adler.

Jan's records always had a bright, clear, energetic sound.
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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2015, 03:34:00 PM »

I was a huge Jan and Dean fan growing up--even more than the BB's at the time--after seeing Deadman's Curve when I was 12. I remember buying Folk n' Roll and hearing The Universal Coward and at first--as a young kid--thinking that it was cool that Jan and Dean did protest songs like all the other cool artists. That is until I really listened to the lyrics. Same with Only A Boy. While I do think its possible that Universal Coward was intended as a satire, the fact that there is no humor at all in the song, coupled with Dean's refusal to have his name on it, makes it hard to hear it as anything but a pro-war song. Actually doing a topical song in 1965 was kinda ahead of the times, but sadly, the lyrics make it difficult to listen to now.

As far as what the future may have held for J&D, of course it is impossible to say, but, speaking as a a fan, I don't think it was bright. I have seen the pilot for the TV show On The Run, and it is terrible, not half as good as The Monkees. Also, by late 1965/early 1966, Jan's sound, which was so fresh in 1963/4 (better than the Brian's during that time, imho) had become dated and stale. Ironically, his sound on Carnival of Sound was actually better in tune with the times. What would have been really cool would have been to have an album that mixed the best of Carnival with the best of Dean's Save For A Rainy Day--that would have been a great album!

Concerning J&D in the RRHOF, as this point, who cares. Jan is dead, and Dean was not the prime musical force behind the act. Politics or whatever aside, I was always really surprised that they never got in when Jan was alive, as the whole story of Jan's accident--which was initially a Rolling Stone feature story!--would have made for an inspiring induction. Can you imagine Jan singing Deadman's Curve at the ceremony. And who knows, they may have gotten Brian to induct them!
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2015, 04:05:52 PM »

I'm not terribly familiar with J&D's material on the whole, but does anyone know why it seems that they were such good buddies with The BBs, and why it never seemed to turn into a real competition between the two bands (as was more the case with The BBs/The Beatles)?

I mean, obviously the BBs trump J&D in terms of quality/sales, and there was/is no "real" competition... but since a number of early J&D tunes sound very, very much like early BB tunes, one would almost tend to think that the two bands would have felt that somebody was ripping somebody off in terms of musical sound. I know bands are influenced by each other, and often ape each others' sounds, but still, it's interesting how that never seemed to be any kind of issue between the two bands, considering how close the material sometimes sounds to my ears.
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