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« Reply #1900 on: November 12, 2016, 02:50:07 PM »

Alright I'm better now....I think though I'm done ever voting for a major party.I also think I'm going to get involved directly and if not directly then as an advocate.  I've seen too many people struggle,  and try to get people divided because if we were to unite, too many people in power (the ones really running the show) would be running scared

Power to the people

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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« Reply #1901 on: November 12, 2016, 03:26:20 PM »

Trump won and Clinton lost. Stein could have bowed out and put the environment ahead of her ego.
Many articles on how 3rd party candidates were a factor in Clinton losing. Probably so. But the people who voted 3rd party did so with their eyes wide open. I don't want to hear their whining when Republicans start dismantling environmental protection and cutting their food stamps. If they are out their protesting Trump now, shame on them!

Sorry, but the evidence shows that Trump would have won with or without Jill Stein in the elections. The Democrats right now are desperate to blame anyone but themselves, hence the many articles that you are referring to.

Evidence shows? Bullcrap! Aside from conspiracy FB pages, where is your evidence?

It really had an effect and contributed to Clinton's loss. Dozens of analysts coming out. Here is one:

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/third-party-candidates-having-outsize-impact-election-n680921
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« Reply #1902 on: November 12, 2016, 03:29:37 PM »

Trump won and Clinton lost. Stein could have bowed out and put the environment ahead of her ego.
Many articles on how 3rd party candidates were a factor in Clinton losing. Probably so. But the people who voted 3rd party did so with their eyes wide open. I don't want to hear their whining when Republicans start dismantling environmental protection and cutting their food stamps. If they are out their protesting Trump now, shame on them!

Sorry, but the evidence shows that Trump would have won with or without Jill Stein in the elections. The Democrats right now are desperate to blame anyone but themselves, hence the many articles that you are referring to.

Any votes for Stein were completely wasted. She didn't have a chance, she was a joke. Only one candidate could move us in a green direction and you didn't vote for her!

If you voted for Stein or Johnson, or didn't vote, great! But you have no right to complain about what the Republicans ARE about to do. Because you had a chance to help stop them and and you didn't try.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 03:42:47 PM by OregonRiverRider » Logged

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« Reply #1903 on: November 12, 2016, 03:40:22 PM »

ORR, you're making one fatal assumption, which is that everyone would follow your preferred idea that a vote for a can't-win candidate is inferior to a vote for an unpreferred (but lesser of two evils) candidate. And that's a choice people get to make. Perhaps people found their line of "can't vote for X" at such a place that both Trump and Clinton were beyond it, regardless of which may have been worse. If a 7 on a 10 scale is too unacceptable, then what's the difference between 7 and 8?

I explained my rationale in an earlier post: I voted Clinton (and didn't feel good about it). But others don't have to share my, or your, logic. People get an opportunity to vote how they see fit. That their thought process doesn't align with yours is quite frankly not up to you. You may as well rail against the Trump voters who (in your opinion) should have felt differently. Or the people who stayed home. There are a million different outcomes that would have changed the election: but they didn't happen. So if it's Stein voters, Johnson voters, non-voters, Trump voters, the outcome was what the outcome was. People did, or did not do, what they did (or didn't). It's their decision. That you think someone else's vote for (their lesser-evil) Clinton would have been better than a vote (their for better-candidate but no-chance) Stein is tremendously arrogant. You didn't convince them otherwise before the election and neither did Clinton. The end.
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« Reply #1904 on: November 12, 2016, 04:08:29 PM »

On the contrary, if you have even a bit of logic and common sense, you would know:

1. Stein or Johnson couldn't win. To vote for either, or not vote, doesn't help Clinton or Trump. Essentially, you were saying I will not participate in who wins.

2. Trump won. Now you are unhappy.

3. You should have thought about that before you Election Day.

4. I have no sympathy for you. The starkness of the two agendas could not have been much greater!

Captain, if I recall, you just waxed poetic all thru this thread and never took a stand. Fine but you have no authenticity to now complain about Trump. You spent many a post dragging Clinton through the mud. Which is fine but you can't have your cake and eat it too!
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« Reply #1905 on: November 12, 2016, 04:12:53 PM »

Wrong. I took a stand. I said, and continue to say, Trump is the worst candidate I've ever seen. I, despite my personal aversion, voted Clinton. You have no sympathy for me, but that's fine: I seek none.

But if someone else decides that for whatever his or her reason s/he can't in good conscience vote for either, that's his or her decision. Those people quite possibly would have been extremely unhappy with either a Clinton or a Trump win. The fact that you or I decided a Clinton win is a lesser problem than a Trump win is irrelevant to someone who decided both of those two would be an unacceptable result. So they voted conscience. It's a legitimate choice.

To make it absurd, but to prove a point, if Stalin and Hitler were the Democratic and Republican candidates, could you honestly stick to the position of lesser of two evils?
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« Reply #1906 on: November 12, 2016, 04:45:43 PM »

Wrong. I took a stand. I said, and continue to say, Trump is the worst candidate I've ever seen. I, despite my personal aversion, voted Clinton. You have no sympathy for me, but that's fine: I seek none.

But if someone else decides that for whatever his or her reason s/he can't in good conscience vote for either, that's his or her decision. Those people quite possibly would have been extremely unhappy with either a Clinton or a Trump win. The fact that you or I decided a Clinton win is a lesser problem than a Trump win is irrelevant to someone who decided both of those two would be an unacceptable result. So they voted conscience. It's a legitimate choice.

To make it absurd, but to prove a point, if Stalin and Hitler were the Democratic and Republican candidates, could you honestly stick to the position of lesser of two evils?

Thank you.
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« Reply #1907 on: November 12, 2016, 05:22:05 PM »

Wrong. I took a stand. I said, and continue to say, Trump is the worst candidate I've ever seen. I, despite my personal aversion, voted Clinton. You have no sympathy for me, but that's fine: I seek none.

But if someone else decides that for whatever his or her reason s/he can't in good conscience vote for either, that's his or her decision. Those people quite possibly would have been extremely unhappy with either a Clinton or a Trump win. The fact that you or I decided a Clinton win is a lesser problem than a Trump win is irrelevant to someone who decided both of those two would be an unacceptable result. So they voted conscience. It's a legitimate choice.

To make it absurd, but to prove a point, if Stalin and Hitler were the Democratic and Republican candidates, could you honestly stick to the position of lesser of two evils?

Then my very bad! My apologies!!! You then did participate and have every right to be pissed!

My feeling is that in 4 years people will be very unhappy, those jobs will not have come back, the swamp will be filled with crooked Republicans getting  themselves and the 1% more rich; and Bernie and VP Warren will ride into office with the most progressive Congress ever.
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« Reply #1908 on: November 12, 2016, 05:26:51 PM »

Wrong. I took a stand. I said, and continue to say, Trump is the worst candidate I've ever seen. I, despite my personal aversion, voted Clinton. You have no sympathy for me, but that's fine: I seek none.

But if someone else decides that for whatever his or her reason s/he can't in good conscience vote for either, that's his or her decision. Those people quite possibly would have been extremely unhappy with either a Clinton or a Trump win. The fact that you or I decided a Clinton win is a lesser problem than a Trump win is irrelevant to someone who decided both of those two would be an unacceptable result. So they voted conscience. It's a legitimate choice.

To make it absurd, but to prove a point, if Stalin and Hitler were the Democratic and Republican candidates, could you honestly stick to the position of lesser of two evils?

Thank you.

But Clinton was neither and anyone who wasted their vote, or didn't vote, didn't really participate!  Illy, sorry but your vote was wasted. Might as well have voted for Mickey Mouse. There were only two electable choices, period!
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« Reply #1909 on: November 12, 2016, 05:27:06 PM »

Thanks, but with all due respect, I don't need an apology. I think you ought to apologize to the well-meaning people who voted their consciences.

I agree with you that the more publicized Trump voters--the white, working class voters--will find their hopes unsubstantiated. And that's why we've got more elections. I hope those who are angry now, who are finger-pointing now, who are protesting now, can channel their feelings more productively toward building campaigns full of candidates they actually want to vote for (rather than not vote against, or stay home because of). Otherwise I'm not particularly interested in anything they say.
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« Reply #1910 on: November 12, 2016, 05:46:55 PM »

Thanks, but with all due respect, I don't need an apology. I think you ought to apologize to the well-meaning people who voted their consciences.

I agree with you that the more publicized Trump voters--the white, working class voters--will find their hopes unsubstantiated. And that's why we've got more elections. I hope those who are angry now, who are finger-pointing now, who are protesting now, can channel their feelings more productively toward building campaigns full of candidates they actually want to vote for (rather than not vote against, or stay home because of). Otherwise I'm not particularly interested in anything they say.

I have said repeatedly now that it's fine if you voted 3rd party or didn't vote. But if you did and now you are complaining about Trump, I have no sympathy. If you get your insurance from the ACA or are on food stamps, for example, and you didn't vote for Clinton, your bad. And you have no right to complain because you wasted your vote!
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« Reply #1911 on: November 12, 2016, 06:31:45 PM »

I still think you're just wrong. If a person voted 3rd party because he found both major-party candidates unacceptable, he reserves his right to complain about the outcome if either major-party candidate wins. That person had no real reason to expect his candidate to win, but he absolutely retains the right to complain about the outcome. (Ideally that complaining will be limited because jesus f*** it's annoying listening to crybabies wasting breath the way they complain others waste votes, and because complaining isn't actually a useful activity if separated from actual action, but everyone has his own usually boring voice.)
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« Reply #1912 on: November 12, 2016, 06:50:05 PM »

I still think you're just wrong. If a person voted 3rd party because he found both major-party candidates unacceptable, he reserves his right to complain about the outcome if either major-party candidate wins. That person had no real reason to expect his candidate to win, but he absolutely retains the right to complain about the outcome. (Ideally that complaining will be limited because jesus f*** it's annoying listening to crybabies wasting breath the way they complain others waste votes, and because complaining isn't actually a useful activity if separated from actual action, but everyone has his own usually boring voice.)

When you waste your vote I cannot take your complaint seriously! If you really, really cared about climate change you would vote in a way that might make a difference. Jill Stein's run has only helped Trump.

So when the EPA is gutted, the last people I wanna hear from are her supporters!
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« Reply #1913 on: November 12, 2016, 06:54:51 PM »

Director Ethan Cohen writes Election thank you'd in The NY Times:

1. Jill Stein voters: You helped elect a man who pledges that he will, in his first hundred days, cancel contributions to United Nations programs to fight climate change. If your vote for Ms. Stein did not end up advancing your green agenda, it did allow you to feel morally superior to all the compromising schmoes who voted for Hillary Clinton. And your feelings about your vote are more important than the consequences of your vote. So thank you!

2. Gary Johnson voters: Thank you, for similar reasons. You, too, may now reward yourselves with feelings of warm self-approval, and your libertarian agenda will now be advanced (or not) by someone who admires the governance of Vladimir Putin. And to Mr. Johnson himself: Not only can no one blame you for this outcome we池e all free agents, man! but you can stop looking for Aleppo.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/opinion/sunday/2016-election-thank-you-notes.html?referer=http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/ethan-coen-pens-scathing-thank-you-note-after-trump-win-w450158
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« Reply #1914 on: November 12, 2016, 07:00:16 PM »

I still think you're just wrong. If a person voted 3rd party because he found both major-party candidates unacceptable, he reserves his right to complain about the outcome if either major-party candidate wins. That person had no real reason to expect his candidate to win, but he absolutely retains the right to complain about the outcome. (Ideally that complaining will be limited because jesus f*** it's annoying listening to crybabies wasting breath the way they complain others waste votes, and because complaining isn't actually a useful activity if separated from actual action, but everyone has his own usually boring voice.)

When you waste your vote I cannot take your complaint seriously! If you really, really cared about climate change you would vote in a way that might make a difference. Jill Stein's run has only helped Trump.

So when the EPA is gutted, the last people I wanna hear from are her supporters!

Nonsense. Say your hypothetical voter cares deeply about climate change, but decides in the end that military intervention in the Middle East is his deciding issue. That voter can easily, and in good conscience, vote Stein, and retain every right to complain that Trump won the presidency.

Judging and turning on your fellow citizens--especially those possibly close to you in ideology, with whom coalitions could be built--is just pathetic. It's pathetic when conservatives call their almost-brethren RINOs. And it's pathetic watching the center/left turn on itself. Once the election is over, why not focus on the future?
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« Reply #1915 on: November 12, 2016, 08:53:31 PM »

I still think you're just wrong. If a person voted 3rd party because he found both major-party candidates unacceptable, he reserves his right to complain about the outcome if either major-party candidate wins. That person had no real reason to expect his candidate to win, but he absolutely retains the right to complain about the outcome. (Ideally that complaining will be limited because jesus f*** it's annoying listening to crybabies wasting breath the way they complain others waste votes, and because complaining isn't actually a useful activity if separated from actual action, but everyone has his own usually boring voice.)

When you waste your vote I cannot take your complaint seriously! If you really, really cared about climate change you would vote in a way that might make a difference. Jill Stein's run has only helped Trump.

So when the EPA is gutted, the last people I wanna hear from are her supporters!

Nonsense. Say your hypothetical voter cares deeply about climate change, but decides in the end that military intervention in the Middle East is his deciding issue. That voter can easily, and in good conscience, vote Stein, and retain every right to complain that Trump won the presidency.

Judging and turning on your fellow citizens--especially those possibly close to you in ideology, with whom coalitions could be built--is just pathetic. It's pathetic when conservatives call their almost-brethren RINOs. And it's pathetic watching the center/left turn on itself. Once the election is over, why not focus on the future?
[/
I still think you're just wrong. If a person voted 3rd party because he found both major-party candidates unacceptable, he reserves his right to complain about the outcome if either major-party candidate wins. That person had no real reason to expect his candidate to win, but he absolutely retains the right to complain about the outcome. (Ideally that complaining will be limited because jesus f*** it's annoying listening to crybabies wasting breath the way they complain others waste votes, and because complaining isn't actually a useful activity if separated from actual action, but everyone has his own usually boring voice.)

When you waste your vote I cannot take your complaint seriously! If you really, really cared about climate change you would vote in a way that might make a difference. Jill Stein's run has only helped Trump.

So when the EPA is gutted, the last people I wanna hear from are her supporters!

Nonsense. Say your hypothetical voter cares deeply about climate change, but decides in the end that military intervention in the Middle East is his deciding issue. That voter can easily, and in good conscience, vote Stein, and retain every right to complain that Trump won the presidency.

Judging and turning on your fellow citizens--especially those possibly close to you in ideology, with whom coalitions could be built--is just pathetic. It's pathetic when conservatives call their almost-brethren RINOs. And it's pathetic watching the center/left turn on itself. Once the election is over, why not focus on the future?

This was not a hypothetical election! The stakes couldn't have been higher! What is nonsense is that people chose to check out, either by not voting or wasting their vote on someone who would not even break 5% of the vote!
Not to say 3rd party candidates lost it for Clinton but they were a major distraction in the.campaign and a subtraction in votes for Clinton.

And Alafter being so thoughtless, I don't want to hear them complain about what the Republicans are about to do!
You are judging me and that makes you a hypocrite Captain.

The system isn't good and  Clinton was flawed but this was a no brainer! I stand by my statements.
If Billy is offended, so be it. If food stamps are a lifeline for his family, then he should have been campaigning for Clinton! If his. If his conscious was more important than feeding his family, more power to him. I am distraught about all the millions of Americans about to be screwed over by the Trump train!

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« Reply #1916 on: November 12, 2016, 10:12:09 PM »

I want a system where voting your conscience doesn't have such dire consequences.
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« Reply #1917 on: November 12, 2016, 10:22:34 PM »

https://youtu.be/GLG9g7BcjKs

I posted this on Facebook with a note that said that people, especially Hillary supporters needed to watch this. Jonathan Pie speaks some pretty heavy truths.


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« Reply #1918 on: November 13, 2016, 04:35:22 AM »

https://youtu.be/GLG9g7BcjKs

I posted this on Facebook with a note that said that people, especially Hillary supporters needed to watch this. Jonathan Pie speaks some pretty heavy truths.



How is his opinion the truth?
Here's some truth: in exit polls, people who said the economy or foreign policy was their primary concern voted for Clinton, those who said immigration or terrorism were their primary concern voted for Trump.
Sanders supporters can project all they want, but they've no evidence that Trump supporters were motivated by the same things they were or that they "understand" Trump supporters any more than anyone else.
Other than the core of both groups are white guys who are mocking and dismissive of Clinton supporters then get so very upset when the favor is returned. 
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« Reply #1919 on: November 13, 2016, 04:40:39 AM »

Just a reminder for the "Clinton is a terrible candidate" people: she got more votes than Sanders; she got more votes than Trump.
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« Reply #1920 on: November 13, 2016, 05:14:37 AM »

ORR, I'm not judging you. I'm asking you to stop vocally judging others who voted their conscience. The time for convincing is over. The votes have been counted. The electoral college has spoken. To rub people's nose in this or that opinion of yours is just useless and more than a little condescending. And of course it wasn't a hypothetical election, but hypotheticals are useful to work out problems, logic, and to prove points.

I shouldn't have gotten this involved in this thread. I was going to avoid it once I made my long summary closing post a couple of days ago. I just didn't like people (literally) shaming other well-meaning people. I hope that stops but can't make anyone do or not do anything. I'll be in the forward-looking political thread.
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« Reply #1921 on: November 13, 2016, 05:52:11 AM »

But Clinton was neither and anyone who wasted their vote, or didn't vote, didn't really participate!  Illy, sorry but your vote was wasted. Might as well have voted for Mickey Mouse. There were only two electable choices, period!

The problem with this idea is in many states, there's really only one electable candidate.  If you live in a deep red state for example...yeah, it's not turning blue no matter what you do.  The popular vote means nothing and that's the real problem here.

*back to lurking*
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« Reply #1922 on: November 13, 2016, 07:04:43 AM »

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-demographic-profile-of-a-Bernie-Sanders-supporter
quote author=Emily link=topic=20357.msg595491#msg595491 date=1479040839]
Just a reminder for the "Clinton is a terrible candidate" people: she got more votes than Sanders; she got more votes than Trump.
[/quote]

Bernie won 22 states in the primaries when he was expected to get squashed like Dennis Kucinich did in his runs.

And there is evidence that his supporters were far more diverse than is thought.

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« Reply #1923 on: November 13, 2016, 07:58:37 AM »

I want a system where voting your conscience doesn't have such dire consequences.

I was very happy to hear Maine's ballot question #5 passed, establishing statewide ranked-choice voting.
https://ballotpedia.org/Maine_Ranked_Choice_Voting_Initiative,_Question_5_(2016)

But Clinton was neither and anyone who wasted their vote, or didn't vote, didn't really participate!  Illy, sorry but your vote was wasted. Might as well have voted for Mickey Mouse. There were only two electable choices, period!

The problem with this idea is in many states, there's really only one electable candidate.  If you live in a deep red state for example...yeah, it's not turning blue no matter what you do.  The popular vote means nothing and that's the real problem here.

*back to lurking*

Right. ORR, if the national popular vote decided the presidency, you might be on to something. Of course, it doesn't. It's just not that simple. To further AvanTodd's point, I voted third party in NJ. How exactly did I contribute to Trump's victory?
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« Reply #1924 on: November 13, 2016, 08:35:15 AM »

I want a system where voting your conscience doesn't have such dire consequences.
Me too. Also where people's difference of opinion can be respected.  But what do I know, I'm just a bald not-quite-as-fat hippie.
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Free Feel Flows!!!!

Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





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http://fear2stop.bandcamp.com/track/tricky-treats
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