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alf wiedersehen
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« Reply #600 on: March 16, 2016, 06:14:52 PM »

One on side, you have an egomaniacal man-child who talks about his penis during political debates and inspires violence from his supporters--a non insignificant number of which are white supremacists.

On the other side, you have a political chameleon: a woman who says anything to increase her polling numbers because she's desperate to be president. I don't trust her, and it seems impossible to know what she'll actually do once she gains the position of power she hungers for. Additionally, a great deal of feminists are supporting her because she's a viable female candidate, but that is foolish. Simply voting in a candidate because they're a women is still discriminatory. Yes, it would be an important step, but as a consequence of its importance, it's not something to pursue at the first available opportunity just because it's the first available opportunity.

If it comes down to these two, I'm willing to bet Hillary Clinton will win. I don't think there's any possible way this country's political inner workings will actually allow the man-child with the tiny hands to become president. That is, if he even gets the nomination. I can't think of anyone else that can currently beat Clinton, but is the GOP really willing to pay the cost of nominating Donald Trump, owner and proprietor of Trump Steaks? (He likes them "very well done"! We can't allow this man to become president.) ? It's all so very complicated.

I'm expecting an unusually high amount of third-party or write-in votes in 2016. I will be one of them.
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Emily
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« Reply #601 on: March 16, 2016, 06:19:25 PM »

One on side, you have an egomaniacal man-child who talks about his penis during political debates and inspires violence from his supporters--a non insignificant number of which are white supremacists.

On the other side, you have a political chameleon: a woman who says anything to increase her polling numbers because she's desperate to be president. I don't trust her, and it seems impossible to know what she'll actually do once she gains the position of power she hungers for. Additionally, a great deal of feminists are supporting her because she's a viable female candidate, but that is foolish. Simply voting in a candidate because they're a women is still discriminatory. Yes, it would be an important step, but as a consequence of its importance, it's not something to pursue at the first available opportunity just because it's the first available opportunity.

If it comes down to these two, I'm willing to bet Hillary Clinton will win. I don't think there's any possible way this country's political inner workings will actually allow the man-child with the tiny hands to become president. That is, if he even gets the nomination. I can't think of anyone else that can currently beat Clinton, but is the GOP really willing to pay the cost of nominating Donald Trump, owner and proprietor of Trump Steaks? (He likes them "very well done"! We can't allow this man to become president.) ? It's all so very complicated.

I'm expecting an unusually high amount of third-party or write-in votes in 2016. I will be one of them.
I hardly think she'd do anything radical. She'd maintain the status quo for however many more years.
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KDS
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« Reply #602 on: March 17, 2016, 05:29:27 AM »

One on side, you have an egomaniacal man-child who talks about his penis during political debates and inspires violence from his supporters--a non insignificant number of which are white supremacists.



That's news to me.  The violence last week was caused by those who oppose Trump. 
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Emily
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« Reply #603 on: March 17, 2016, 10:25:59 AM »

One on side, you have an egomaniacal man-child who talks about his penis during political debates and inspires violence from his supporters--a non insignificant number of which are white supremacists.



That's news to me.  The violence last week was caused by those who oppose Trump. 
What do you mean?
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KDS
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« Reply #604 on: March 17, 2016, 11:45:52 AM »

One on side, you have an egomaniacal man-child who talks about his penis during political debates and inspires violence from his supporters--a non insignificant number of which are white supremacists.



That's news to me.  The violence last week was caused by those who oppose Trump.  
What do you mean?


I mean the riots in Illinois that were started late last week by people who oppose Trump to the point where they don't think he should be allowed to have a rally.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 12:07:30 PM by KDS » Logged
drbeachboy
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« Reply #605 on: March 17, 2016, 12:05:04 PM »

Amazing how Trump gets blamed for something protesters started. You know, I am sick that I have no one in either party that I would vote for. This will be the first election since I started voting in 1976 where I will not be a participant. It is really sad that we are down to the dregs of each political party.
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« Reply #606 on: March 17, 2016, 12:41:07 PM »

One on side, you have an egomaniacal man-child who talks about his penis during political debates and inspires violence from his supporters--a non insignificant number of which are white supremacists.



That's news to me.  The violence last week was caused by those who oppose Trump.  
What do you mean?


I mean the riots in Illinois that were started late last week by people who oppose Trump to the point where they don't think he should be allowed to have a rally.
So are you saying that you don't think the individuals who were violent are responsible for their own actions?
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KDS
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« Reply #607 on: March 17, 2016, 12:47:02 PM »

One on side, you have an egomaniacal man-child who talks about his penis during political debates and inspires violence from his supporters--a non insignificant number of which are white supremacists.



That's news to me.  The violence last week was caused by those who oppose Trump.  
What do you mean?


I mean the riots in Illinois that were started late last week by people who oppose Trump to the point where they don't think he should be allowed to have a rally.
So are you saying that you don't think the individuals who were violent are responsible for their own actions?

Of course they were.  But Bubs, and several in the media, seem to be blaming Trump and his supporters for the riots. 

However, the riots were not started Trump supporters, but by people opposed to Trump. 

So, yes, they are responsible for their actions, but they are not Trump supporters. 
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Emily
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« Reply #608 on: March 17, 2016, 01:06:49 PM »

Well, I think Trump has been really irresponsible egging it on. I think a responsible leader tries to diffuse those sorts of tensions. I also understand from reports that the protesters were mostly nonviolent and just exercising their rights and that Trump supporters were the main initiators of violence, though I imagine there was some mutuality.
But if people respond to protests with violence, I hardly think the violence can be blamed on the protesters. I'm
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alf wiedersehen
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« Reply #609 on: March 17, 2016, 01:11:08 PM »

Nope, not blaming Trump for the riots. Wasn't even talking about the riots.

I am blaming Trump in general, though.

However many weeks ago, Trump was giving a speech in Kentucky where he abruptly stopped and demanded that a protester be removed from the premises. His followers took it upon themselves to do so, and physically assaulted the peaceful woman all the way to the exit. If you're into watching a war vet manhandle a young, black woman, you can watch the video here. See that guy in the red hat that hits her and shouts at her? Yeah, that's most likely Matthew Heimbach, "one of the best known youth leaders of modern white supremacy and Neo-Nazism in the country." Sweet fans you got, Trumparino.

Or how about the one where one of his supporters punched another peacefully-leaving protester in the face? And then threatened to kill him because he's probably Isis. 5 police officers were demoted for standing by and simply watching it happen.


Okay, but how is this Trump's fault, you ask? Sure, let's get into it.

On February 1st, Trump said "if you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of 'em, would you? Seriously. Okay? Just knock the hell — I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise."

On March 4th, during one interruption, Drumpf said, "Get him out. Try not to hurt him. If you do I’ll defend you in court. Are Drumpf rallies the most fun?" he then asked the crowd. "We’re having a good time." He then recalled an incident at a New Hampshire rally where a protester started "swinging and punching." Drumpf said some people in the audience "took him out." "It was really amazing to watch," he said.

On March 9th, he said "See, in the good old days this didn’t use to happen, because they used to treat them very rough. We’ve become very weak."

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drbeachboy
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« Reply #610 on: March 17, 2016, 01:20:49 PM »

I am no Trump supporter by a long shot, but we do have free speech and if the protesters can do what they do, then Trump has the right to say what he has to say. Free speech works both ways. The issue is once the protesters get inside the rally are they over stepping their boundaries? Protesting outside the location is one thing, but doing it inside is another story. I agree that Trump being a candidate should watch what he says, but I am a firm believer that to know where one stands, is to let that person speak and don't allow him/her to be silenced. I'd rather know where he stands now then to find out later when it could possibly be too late. His mouth proved to me that I want no part in what he believes. I am glad he is saying it now and not later.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
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Your Kingdom Come,
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On Stage As It Is In Studio,
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And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
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« Reply #611 on: March 17, 2016, 01:26:36 PM »

Around the time of that March 4th rally, "three complaints were filed [with the police] on Wednesday and Thursday and were under review." The day before, black students were removed from a rally in Georgia.

Last year, on November 21st, a BLM supporter was shouting during Drumpf's speech, and then was beat up by a gang of Drumpf supporters. Drumpf said "maybe he should have been roughed up."

Here you can watch a video of a Latino man being dragged out of a Drumpf rally while onlookers chant "USA!"

Here you can see pictures of an immigrant woman's hair being pulled by Drumpf's people.

Here's a video of a secret serviceman choking a TIME photographer.

When asked during a debate about the violence at his rallies, Drumpf feigned ignorance and equated it to their passion for this country and his campaign.
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alf wiedersehen
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« Reply #612 on: March 17, 2016, 01:30:45 PM »

Free speech works both ways.

It does not.

"The Supreme Court has held that 'advocacy of the use of force' is unprotected when it is 'directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action' and is 'likely to incite or produce such action'."

And it has produced such action--multiple times.
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drbeachboy
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« Reply #613 on: March 17, 2016, 01:34:02 PM »

Around the time of that March 4th rally, "three complaints were filed [with the police] on Wednesday and Thursday and were under review." The day before, black students were removed from a rally in Georgia.

Last year, on November 21st, a BLM supporter was shouting during Drumpf's speech, and then was beat up by a gang of Drumpf supporters. Drumpf said "maybe he should have been roughed up."

Here you can watch a video of a Latino man being dragged out of a Drumpf rally while onlookers chant "USA!"

Here you can see pictures of an immigrant woman's hair being pulled by Drumpf's people.

Here's a video of a secret serviceman choking a TIME photographer.

When asked during a debate about the violence at his rallies, Drumpf feigned ignorance and equated it to their passion for this country and his campaign.
It is the supporters vs the protesters and not Trump. No matter his comments, it still comes down to the folks in the stands actions. It's like that old saying; if I ask you to go jump off of a bridge, are you going to go and do it just because I said so? People have start taking responsibility for their own actions. These days we are always quick to blame someone else, because they told me to do it.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 01:39:47 PM by drbeachboy » Logged

The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
Emily
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« Reply #614 on: March 17, 2016, 02:29:48 PM »

I agree that those that were violent are responsible for their own actions. I also think I really don't want a president who thinks that violence is an OK reaction to protest. I don't think we need more Kent States.
Though, I will add that the status quo has been state violence against protest since forever, but it would be nice to have a president who doesn't seem quite so into it.
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Emily
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« Reply #615 on: March 17, 2016, 02:43:44 PM »

And thanks for the extensive documentation, Bubs. Geez he's awful.
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the captain
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« Reply #616 on: March 17, 2016, 02:51:05 PM »

People who commit violence are responsible for committing violence. Sometimes that violence is justified (e.g., self-defense); usually it is not. The vast majority of actual violence--as I understand it, anyway--has been done by Trump's supporters against protesters. Those supporters are responsible for committing violence (as well as any protesters who initiated violence--not by protesting, but by being the first to be violent).

To blame protesters for "starting it" by protesting is not valid, in my opinion. They are a pain to the supporters and the campaign rally, absolutely. I've often mentioned my own distaste for most protests, myself: I don't think they're particularly effective other than to rile up their own believers. In my experience, anyone neutral or opposed simply gets more opposed. That said, we have the right to protest in this country, so I mostly just try to ignore them (whether I am sympathetic, opposed, or neutral), even as they stall my commute, block my skyway walk, or ruin my lunch. (One might say "first-world problems. And yeah. That's a fair criticism. Yet I counter that it ought not be someone else's choice what is more important than my routines, conveniences, or pleasure, or when to undo them. They may be correct, they may not, but it ought to be up to me whether their cause warrants my inconvenience, attention, support, etc.)

To blame Trump is--sorry, KDS--somewhat fair. The fact is, celebrities and leaders do have power over mobs, and that's exactly what political supporters are (or are wont to become). Trump is running not on a coherent and consistent platform that people join through reason, but based on an emotional connection made through charisma, like a fascist dictator or a cult leader. It's HIM, not party, not ideology, not ideas. And so when he stands there talking about violence, when he doesn't take violence seriously, when he villainizes people, yes, he is somewhat responsible. Not directly, but close enough.

As these events unfolded, I kept thinking of the Tea Partiers protesting in and totally making a mess of town halls and rallies and such in and around 2010. I wonder if violence against those loudmouth protesters would have been so widely accepted, or whether conservatives would have blamed those protesters.

My preference is for everyone to calm down and, as parents tend to tell their battling kids, "use your words."
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« Reply #617 on: March 17, 2016, 04:00:46 PM »

Good points above that I agree with. It is a basic tenet of ethical thinking that you are responsible for the predictable consequences of your actions. And free speech, an important principle, does not prevent one from being criticized over the speech that one uses. You can't repeatedly call for violent actions against protesters and then wipe your hands after it actually happens and pretend as if you had nothing to do with it. There are plenty of laws out there against saying things that lead to predictably negative outcomes and free speech is not an issue in those cases -- not that I think Donald Trump should be put in jail for this.
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« Reply #618 on: March 17, 2016, 04:22:17 PM »

Jesus, and excuse me whomever that offends, but Jesus. I just went through all the links from Bubs and did some more reading and I'm baffled and a bit scared. There's something so contradictory on the right. Are the same people who support our incredibly loose weapons laws because of the 'right to protect ourselves against a tyrannical government' also Trump supporters? Because this looks like the lead-up to an openly violent tyrannical government to me. Isn't a president that encourages that sort of violence against the opposition exactly what they claim 'the people' need to be armed against? Do they support Trump because they'll finally have their justification for their weapons realized?
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« Reply #619 on: March 27, 2016, 11:12:28 AM »

I found this entertaining and pretty accurate:
https://twitter.com/christopherlay/status/713126487130378240/photo/1
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« Reply #620 on: March 30, 2016, 12:43:42 PM »

A discussion of Trump versus Sanders supporters and their likelihood of combining for a future third party. The article concludes that the likelihood is low, but given some of their common ideas, I wouldn't be surprised if one party or the other has a big shift, perhaps with a third party  making a big showing next time around.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/30/the-crazy-logic-behind-an-alliance-of-trump-sanders-supporters/

Lots of typos in this article. Where are the copyrighters?
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« Reply #621 on: March 30, 2016, 12:55:19 PM »

There's something so contradictory on the right. Are the same people who support our incredibly loose weapons laws because of the 'right to protect ourselves against a tyrannical government' also Trump supporters? Because this looks like the lead-up to an openly violent tyrannical government to me. Isn't a president that encourages that sort of violence against the opposition exactly what they claim 'the people' need to be armed against? Do they support Trump because they'll finally have their justification for their weapons realized?

I don't support Trump one bit; I see him as the "right-wing" equivalent of Sanders in just about every way. Trump courts the same low-information voters that elected and re-elected Obama and his two predecessors. I'm also pretty much convinced that he's only there to ensure Hillary wins the presidency. Years of donating to Democrats can't fool everyone. Sadly, The Donald's fanboys aren't that perceptive. They're literally trying to elect another Obama because they're pissed off with Obama.
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« Reply #622 on: March 30, 2016, 01:04:44 PM »

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/03/30/watch-teen-girl-pepper-sprayed-face-trump-rally

Just to prove that I'm by no means some kind of radical right-winger who thinks Fox never gets things wrong (they, like every other major network, cherry pick their reporting). What's funny about this is that EVEN FOX NEWS is selectively reporting this incident. This girl was not sprayed for no reason; she threw a punch. If she connected matters not. She came unprepared and got blasted for it.

Still not a fan of the Donald, but sh*t like this from Sanders supporters is going to drive more people into the former's camp.
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« Reply #623 on: March 30, 2016, 01:06:19 PM »

I'm also pretty much convinced that he's only there to ensure Hillary wins the presidency. Years of donating to Democrats can't fool everyone.

I've heard this before, but am not so sure. First, I'm always pretty skeptical of conspiracy theories. Second, what does that say about Republicans that they can have Democrats (I assume that's whom you'd say are behind it?) push a clown into their primaries and beat their candidates by saying ludicrous things incessantly? (Their voters are that stupid about their party's professed positions?) Third, none of their other candidates polled particularly well against Clinton, either. So it seems like an unnecessary bit of clandestine maneuvering to me. Ted Cruz was not going to beat her in a Trumpless world... And fourth, he's been a purported Republican for, what, 15 years now? That's really playing the long game (for someone whose brain usually can't even stay one step ahead of his mouth). The donations aren't surprising to me: my company, and many others I know of, donate to people in both parties all the time. It's about hedging their bets more than anything else. So that he'd do the same isn't surprising, especially when the Democrats ARE the Republicans, more or less, more often than not.

That said, I suppose anything is possible.
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« Reply #624 on: March 30, 2016, 01:08:38 PM »

Oh, don't get me wrong, when it comes to having a game plan, the Democrats will ALWAYS have one up on the Republicans. There's something respectable about that.
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