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filledeplage
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« Reply #400 on: November 14, 2015, 12:18:46 PM »


Socialism is both political and economic.


Politics and economics are essentially interchangeable words. Why are you separating them here and what do you mean by this?
CSM - I never thought of politics and economics as interchangeable. Maybe you're correct.  I think of politics as a type of social organization. And the manipulation of that organization to suit different factions.  But l suppose that politics can influence economics with policy making or policy changing, driven by factions or by money.  Sort of like lobbying.  

But, if you look up the definition of socialism, it gives two definitions.  One is political and one economic, and emphasizes the difficulty in defining either or both. It can be subjective and I am thinking subjectively, perhaps.

When I took a course on Constitutional Law, one Supreme Court case concerning the hard to define standard of "what is pornography," in Jacobellis v. Ohio, from 1964, Judge Potter Stewart used the expression, "I know it when I see it."  (but, hard to define)  
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Emily
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« Reply #401 on: November 14, 2015, 12:22:26 PM »

Does he look like a socialist whose platforms help Wall St. more than Main St.?  

I'm not sure I understand. If he helps Wall St. then he wouldn't look like a socialist.
To the environmentalists - he is a savior, getting the inefficient cars off the road.

To the people - he is a great guy because they wanted a new car anyway.

To the car makers and those who hold stock (Wall St.) in those companies, he is lining their pockets.

Party on the taxpayers. Wink


I'm still confused. What does this have to do with socialism?
Socialism is both a social and economic system characterized by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production as well as a political theory and movement.

And, there can be any number of varieties of socialism and no single definition.  Hard to define but you usually know it when you see it.

No, it's not that difficult -- you defined it pretty well above and it is a pretty definitive definition. Not sure what you mean about it not having a single definition.

Quote
Looking back at the beginning of his administration and cash-for-clunkers, this "giveaway" at taxpayers expense was the first swing at "wealth redistribution" I think.  

It gave carmakers a bailout and car owners an incentive to dump what they were driving.  That's the way I see it.

Wealth redistribution is not socialism neither by your definition nor any official definition of the term. If that were the definition then just about every leader in first world countries since the industrial revolution has been a raging socialist.

Like you say, socialism is about the common ownership of means of production. Moving wealth around has nothing to do with ownership.
I think communism and socialism are getting conflated here.
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Emily
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« Reply #402 on: November 14, 2015, 12:24:01 PM »


Socialism is both political and economic.


Politics and economics are essentially interchangeable words. Why are you separating them here and what do you mean by this?
CSM - I never thought of politics and economics as interchangeable. Maybe you're correct.  I think of politics as a type of social organization. And the manipulation of that organization to suit different factions.  But l suppose that politics can influence economics with policy making or policy changing, driven by factions or by money.  Sort of like lobbying.  

But, if you look up the definition of socialism, it gives two definitions.  One is political and one economic, and emphasizes the difficulty in defining either or both. It can be subjective and I am thinking subjectively, perhaps.

When I took a course on Constitutional Law, one Supreme Court case concerning the hard to define standard of "what is pornography," in Jacobellis v. Ohio, from 1964, Judge Potter Stewart used the expression, "I know it when I see it."  (but, hard to define)  


Economic policy is a subset of public policy.
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Emily
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« Reply #403 on: November 14, 2015, 12:26:33 PM »


Socialism is both political and economic.


Politics and economics are essentially interchangeable words. Why are you separating them here and what do you mean by this?
CSM - I never thought of politics and economics as interchangeable. Maybe you're correct.  I think of politics as a type of social organization. And the manipulation of that organization to suit different factions.  But l suppose that politics can influence economics with policy making or policy changing, driven by factions or by money.  Sort of like lobbying.  

But, if you look up the definition of socialism, it gives two definitions.  One is political and one economic, and emphasizes the difficulty in defining either or both. It can be subjective and I am thinking subjectively, perhaps.

When I took a course on Constitutional Law, one Supreme Court case concerning the hard to define standard of "what is pornography," in Jacobellis v. Ohio, from 1964, Judge Potter Stewart used the expression, "I know it when I see it."  (but, hard to define)  

Yes, but as I said, with p**n, most people agree whether or not they're seeing it. There's a gray area, but the gray area is pretty narrow. With the definition of socialism, if the cash for clunkers can be considered socialism, then that gray area is so big, that almost everything can be socialism to someone and the term is rendered meaningless.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #404 on: November 14, 2015, 12:40:56 PM »

CSM - I never thought of politics and economics as interchangeable. Maybe you're correct.

I think there are other variables, like level of authority that is involved when one is talking about politics, which is quite apart from economic system. But otherwise I think a political system is essentially an economic one.

Quote
But, if you look up the definition of socialism, it gives two definitions.  One is political and one economic, and emphasizes the difficulty in defining either or both. It can be subjective and I am thinking subjectively, perhaps.

Where are you looking up the definition? You have to remember that the definition of socialism has been wildly distorted by decades upon decades of intense propaganda. Contemporary definitions of socialism in say, a mainstream dictionary usually define socialism in the same way that one would define capitalism in direct opposition to Adam Smith's theory. And if it were the case that someone would define a term in opposition to the way the term was essentially defined in the first place, then we'd have to conclude that this new definition is false. That's what tends to be the case when one looks up definitions of socialism. Ultimately, socialism means that workers own the means of production. It categorically does not mean wealth redistribution.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 01:41:27 PM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #405 on: November 14, 2015, 12:42:11 PM »

Does he look like a socialist whose platforms help Wall St. more than Main St.?  

I'm not sure I understand. If he helps Wall St. then he wouldn't look like a socialist.
To the environmentalists - he is a savior, getting the inefficient cars off the road.

To the people - he is a great guy because they wanted a new car anyway.

To the car makers and those who hold stock (Wall St.) in those companies, he is lining their pockets.

Party on the taxpayers. Wink


I'm still confused. What does this have to do with socialism?
Socialism is both a social and economic system characterized by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production as well as a political theory and movement.

And, there can be any number of varieties of socialism and no single definition.  Hard to define but you usually know it when you see it.

No, it's not that difficult -- you defined it pretty well above and it is a pretty definitive definition. Not sure what you mean about it not having a single definition.

Quote
Looking back at the beginning of his administration and cash-for-clunkers, this "giveaway" at taxpayers expense was the first swing at "wealth redistribution" I think.  

It gave carmakers a bailout and car owners an incentive to dump what they were driving.  That's the way I see it.

Wealth redistribution is not socialism neither by your definition nor any official definition of the term. If that were the definition then just about every leader in first world countries since the industrial revolution has been a raging socialist.

Like you say, socialism is about the common ownership of means of production. Moving wealth around has nothing to do with ownership.
I think communism and socialism are getting conflated here.

You're right -- I should have said collective and co-operative rather than common.
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« Reply #406 on: November 15, 2015, 10:40:40 AM »

I find it interesting that the two leading Republican are the ones with the least amount of experience.

It is interesting, I agree.  And it is exactly the kind of experience they lack, that is giving them the lead.  Or so I believe.

Nothing new.  You saw it in 08, with the Turd, Al-Obama.  He brought the country unfettered radicalism of the Leftward Collegiate variety.  One of the worst strains, I've always believed.  And now, people hope, these two Republican leading candidates will offer something equally strong in the ANYTHING BUT direction.  There's very little patience for the big-money, heavily managed, empty suits types like Jeb.
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« Reply #407 on: November 15, 2015, 10:54:05 AM »

Snooze-fest Dem debate last night, BTW.  Regarding national security, all we got was a lot of corporate-slogans --

"we need to better."
"we need to have better."
"we need to work with the world better."

Wow.  Inspiring.  I'd feel safe with one of those dunces calling the shots.




Here's my quick analysis...  Tongue
Bernie Sander:  I take back everything nice I'd ever about "The Bern." In your best Yogi Bear voice, just say "Climate Change" with your hands up in the air.  What a loon.
O'Mally:  Oh boy.  I'll just be nice and say "light weight."
Hillary:  With this competition, if I were her, I wouldn't get too comfortable.  Because there's a REAL good chance that Jeb isn't going to be your opponent.  I'll leave it at that.

Talk about JV squad.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 10:56:00 AM by Bean Bag » Logged

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Jim V.
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« Reply #408 on: November 15, 2015, 11:18:28 AM »

There's very little patience for the big-money, heavily managed, empty suits types like Jeb.

Yet Beans will happily vote for Jeb? after he carpetbombs all the other Republicans in a scorched earth primary and wins the nomination. Somehow Jeb?'s empty suit will then seem presidential.

Odd.
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Jim V.
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« Reply #409 on: November 16, 2015, 03:19:09 PM »

Ted Cruz



Ted Cruz is awesome. Anybody up for a few reasons for why he's so awesome?

Anyways, first he, according to the NY Times, had a "stint in the policy shop of George W. Bush’s 2000 presidential campaign, a dynastic enterprise that was as pure an expression of the Republican establishment’s wishes as could be."

So yeah, Rafi is super anti-establishment. Right.

He also can't stand how stupid and liberal Supreme Court Justice (and two time Obamacare constitutionality advocate) John Roberts is. Except for the fact that the NY Times pointed out how "there’s rarely mention of his role in recruiting John Roberts, who would later get a seat on the Supreme Court, to the legal team doing battle for Bush during the 2000 Florida recount. No, that would undercut his rants now about Roberts’s insufficiently pure conservatism as the high court’s chief justice."

Whoopsie!

Lastly, Rafi is a regular guy. No big freakin' elitist! He's a man of the people. Yet, in a GQ article by Jason Zengerle it was pointed out that Cruz was known at Harvard Law School for a reluctance to “study with anyone who hadn’t been an undergrad at Harvard, Princeton, or Yale."

Shoot, the NY Times pointed out how one of Cruz’s law-school roommates, Damon Watson, told Zengerle: “He said he didn’t want anybody from ‘minor Ivies’ like Penn or Brown.”

Gosh, that doesn't seem elitist at all. I mean, I know none of us would wanna associate with the minor Ivies either! Yuck. What low class idiot scumbags.

So yeah, Ted Cruz is the real deal. And liberals are shaking in their boots at the thought of him running.

Go Ted!

« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 03:26:30 PM by sweetdudejim » Logged
Emily
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« Reply #410 on: November 16, 2015, 05:00:00 PM »

Apparently quality image management (my current posting theme) is the most important qualification to be president.
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« Reply #411 on: November 17, 2015, 12:49:46 PM »

Sure is weird that certain posters disappear when facts are presented that contrast with the fairy tales they are trying to push on us.
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« Reply #412 on: November 19, 2015, 04:50:02 AM »

Wow, look who's back!  It's sweetdudjim!  Talk about disappearing acts. My oh my. Why i havent seen him since he lost that election. Way to get back on that horse!
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« Reply #413 on: November 19, 2015, 06:08:38 AM »

I really don't think he has a chance, but as a Maryland native, I can honestly say if Martin O'Malley were to get elected, I would seriously consider heading north to Canada. 

I find it comical that he tries to list "accomplishments" as Governor of Maryland. 

-Turning a budget surplus into a deficit almost overnight.  And still operating with a deficit despite high taxes and revenues from recently legalized gambling. 

-Raising tolls and taxes on everything, including the rain!!!!

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« Reply #414 on: November 19, 2015, 06:12:29 AM »

They don't call him "Owe'Malley" for nothing. But to the liberal masses, he's too conservative for them. He's not Bernie Sanders (not that he has a chance, either).
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filledeplage
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« Reply #415 on: November 19, 2015, 06:24:23 AM »

They don't call him "Owe'Malley" for nothing. But to the liberal masses, he's too conservative for them. He's not Bernie Sanders (not that he has a chance, either).
ÖweMalley"-now that is funny! LOL

Dems are so desperate for a non-leftist. Those three?

But, anyone moderate or fiscally conservative as  is instantly blackballed in the party.

They need a couple of losses to get the message.  Wink
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Jim V.
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« Reply #416 on: November 19, 2015, 06:31:31 AM »

Wow, look who's back!  It's sweetdudjim!  Talk about disappearing acts. My oh my. Why i havent seen him since he lost that election. Way to get back on that horse!

Weird that you had not opinion on the proof that Ted Cruz is a fraudulent, elitist piece of sh*t. Very surprising that you'd ignore it.

And yeah, I "lost an election." In your mind.
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KDS
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« Reply #417 on: November 19, 2015, 06:33:58 AM »

They don't call him "Owe'Malley" for nothing. But to the liberal masses, he's too conservative for them. He's not Bernie Sanders (not that he has a chance, either).
ÖweMalley"-now that is funny! LOL

Dems are so desperate for a non-leftist. Those three?

But, anyone moderate or fiscally conservative as  is instantly blackballed in the party.

They need a couple of losses to get the message.  Wink

My wife and I actually changed our affiliations to Democrat, temporarily, for the sole purpose of voting against O' Malley in the primaries. 

Even registered Democrats in Maryland have turned their backs on him.  I think his most recent MD approval rating was around 2%. 
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Emily
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« Reply #418 on: November 19, 2015, 08:55:04 AM »


Dems are so desperate for a non-leftist.

I assure you, this, while it may be true for some, is not for most.
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filledeplage
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« Reply #419 on: November 19, 2015, 09:20:23 AM »


Dems are so desperate for a non-leftist.

I assure you, this, while it may be true for some, is not for most.
Many I know are looking for alternatives this election. 
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filledeplage
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« Reply #420 on: November 20, 2015, 05:25:28 AM »

Ted Cruz



The very mention of Lincoln's name -- sorry, Cruz's name -- causes the owning-class to shriek in terror.  Ted Cruz has been a tough candidate, and his stock is only rising.  The Republican Party just can't get rid of him.  And the Left... well, they're hoping to hell they don't have to.  They're hoping Jeb's Republicans can keep him sidelined just a little longer.

Like me (I'm only guessing, never met him) but Ted loves to be hated.  Well, by that I mean it's vindication that he's on the right track.  Like the old adage -- I want to be judged by who my enemies are.  You know... there's very little guidance in this world... 'cept from your enemies.

Anyway... Ted Cruz continues to have a lot of big debate moments.  Tee-hee.


BB - Ted Cruz has filed a bill, following the lead of the UK, Norway, Australia Uzbekistan, Tajikstan, Canada, (who have enumerated offenses such as spying, treason and terrorism) to strip citizenship of those who leave to fight as terrorists.  The Uk has had a law on the books called the Foreign Enlistment Act of 1870. 

Cruz just got my attention.  It will be interesting how this goes down.   Wink   
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« Reply #421 on: November 20, 2015, 03:57:21 PM »

I saw Cruz on an episode of Louder with Crowder last night. He's not Rand Paul but a close second. His taste in music is good as well.

I got a big kick out of him saying that his favorite film is The Princess Bride.
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« Reply #422 on: November 21, 2015, 10:22:01 AM »

I saw Cruz on an episode of Louder with Crowder last night. He's not Rand Paul but a close second. His taste in music is good as well.

I got a big kick out of him saying that his favorite film is The Princess Bride.

Is it? Last time I heard him talking about music he was saying he abandoned the entire genre of "rock music" because "he didn't like how they responded" to 9/11. And instead "converted" to country music. Sounds like a guy that's full of sh*t when it comes to his music taste.
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« Reply #423 on: November 21, 2015, 10:49:52 AM »

I saw Cruz on an episode of Louder with Crowder last night. He's not Rand Paul but a close second. His taste in music is good as well.

I got a big kick out of him saying that his favorite film is The Princess Bride.

Is it? Last time I heard him talking about music he was saying he abandoned the entire genre of "rock music" because "he didn't like how they responded" to 9/11. And instead "converted" to country music. Sounds like a guy that's full of sh*t when it comes to his music taste.
Wait. Did ha really say that? I don't think I'm going to stop laughing for a week. Everyone's going to think I'm a maniac.
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« Reply #424 on: November 21, 2015, 10:52:32 AM »

He sure did.
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