Campaign 2016

[Chocolate Shake Man]

With Trump, what-you-see-is-what-you-get. With Hillary, we have too many unknowns.   

Well, even if that's true, I doubt Hillary would lower the tax rate on the top income earners to 25% - a Trump policy proposal which is absolutely disastrous and by that I mean it could quite seriously plunge the country into disaster if it went through.

[Emily]

In other words, maybe I'm being reactionary but I'm really really scared of Trump.

Emily - Trump has not been a politician.  He now has a professional campaign manager.  Being a politician is a "learned behavior." He has been at it for 10 months.  So, now he has to learn to dial-it-back and behave more as a statesman.  I would rather someone who is "out with his thoughts" than a sneak who is restrained and has an agenda.

With Trump, what-you-see-is-what-you-get. With Hillary, we have too many unknowns.  

If what-you-see-is-what-you-get, that underscores the need to get him off the political stage. What I see is a narcissist with fascist, racist, misogynist, war-mongering tendencies and a God complex.
And I'd hope everyone has an agenda.

Oh -  and 0 understanding of macroeconomics and foreign policy or international affairs.

And also, when did restraint become a bad thing?

[Douchepool]

How much would Trump realistically be able to accomplish as president? Probably no more than Sanders, and possibly even less.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

And let's not forget about his support for torture even more extreme than that which is already illegal in international law.

[Emily]

How much would Trump realistically be able to accomplish as president? Probably no more than Sanders, and possibly even less.

A president has a lot of leeway in foreign policy. I think almost nothing would change with domestic policy, but I think we'd be knee-deep in a whole lot of war before too long with Trump. I also think we'd see a lot more domestic violence motivated by bigotry.

er - by 'domestic violence' I don't mean household violence, I mean violence within the US by US citizens against US citizens.

[KDS]

How much would Trump realistically be able to accomplish as president? Probably no more than Sanders, and possibly even less.

A president has a lot of leeway in foreign policy. I think almost nothing would change with domestic policy, but I think we'd be knee-deep in a whole lot of war before too long with Trump. I also think we'd see a lot more domestic violence motivated by bigotry.

er - by 'domestic violence' I don't mean household violence, I mean violence within the US by US citizens against US citizens.

I still don't see how being against illegal immigration and bring in Syranian refugees equals bigotry. 

Besides, the current POTUS has done a lot of racially divide the US.  He's set race relations back almost 50 years!!!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Besides, the current POTUS has done a lot of racially divide the US.  He's set race relations back almost 50 years!!!

How so?

[KDS]

Besides, the current POTUS has done a lot of racially divide the US.  He's set race relations back almost 50 years!!!

How so?

The war on police.  Sending White House officials to the funerals of Michael Brown and Freddie Gray, but not to fallen police officers. 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

To be fair, I think there should be far more dramatic actions taken to curb to repair the extreme inequality of treatment by police. As far as I'm concerned, Obama has been a lightweight on this issue. What I think has caused more harm to race relations is the unequal treatment of particular races in the eyes of the law.

[KDS]

To be fair, I think there should be far more dramatic actions taken to curb to repair the extreme inequality of treatment by police. As far as I'm concerned, Obama has been a lightweight on this issue. What I think has caused more harm to race relations is the unequal treatment of particular races in the eyes of the law.

That's bunk.  More white perps have died in police custody than any other race. 

As Chris Rock said, if you don't want to get mistreated by the Police, don't break the law. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igQDvYOt_iA

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Well, if you want some facts, here are more:

On average, black people get longer sentences than white people for the same crimes, black people are arrested for drug use at twice the rate as white people despite the fact that statistics show that use levels are the same for both races - and this is largely because the war on drugs has targeted African American communities; black drivers are three times more likely to be searched than white drivers, and because black Americans are under more surveillance for criminal activity, they make up 60% of incarcerated Americans while making up only 30% of the population.

The fact is that black Americans are have suffered significantly from a radically imbalanced legal system. And I do believe this does far more damage for race relations than not attending a funeral.

Sources: http://www.businessinsider.com/theres-blatant-inequality-at-nearly-every-phase-of-the-criminal-justice-system-2015-8
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13/11351/the-top-10-most-startling-facts-about-people-of-color-and-criminal-justice-in-the-united-states/

[KDS]

There are more African Americans in prison because they're being watched more? 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There are more African Americans in prison because they're being watched more? 

They are being searched more and their communities are being targeted for crimes. So yes.

[KDS]

There are more African Americans in prison because they're being watched more? 

They are being searched more and their communities are being targeted for crimes. So yes.

Probably because of the amount of crimes in their communities.   Communities that fester in poverty because of liberal handouts designed to keep them living in poverty. 

Baltimore's a great example.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Probably because of the amount of crimes in their communities.

That's not what the above statistics point out. What they point out is that while the criminal activity in question is relatively equal between black people and white people, black people are incarcerated more. Obviously if you are looking for specific people to commit crimes in specific communities, which the statistics prove that police are doing, then they are going to find them. It has nothing to do with which communities commit more crimes -  that's propaganda.

  Communities that fester in poverty because of liberal handouts designed to keep them living in poverty.  

I agree that poverty does lead to crime and, in fact, black Americans aren't the only targets of an unfair legal system but just about anyone in the lower class.

I would be happy to discuss the latter point about how liberal handouts are designed to keep people living in poverty. Suffice to say, there is very little proof to demonstrate that. But I'd be curious to see what you would propose instead and we can also talk about that.

[Emily]

I've missed a lot while trying to find out if my opinions of Clinton are justified. I'm going to put what I found here, then look at the conversation you guys are having:

CSM, I agree that US foreign policy is an unmitigated evil under either party and that Clinton shows no sign of changing that. I also agree that she’s happy to work within the corporate oligarchy and shows no sign of changing that. However, I think that, due to her husband’s positions, due to her own pragmatism and due to liberals' tendencies to try to meet nay-sayers halfway, even when the nay-sayers are flatout wrong, her rightishness within those parameters is overstated. Here are some ‘progressive’ things she’s done within those parameters:

Created, initiated or led (or co-created, co-initiated or co-led):
Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth
Task Force to reform Arkansas's education system (which was incredibly successful and was a big part of Bill Clinton’s touted Arkansas success)
Investigation of reports of what would be known as Gulf War Syndrome
the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice
the Adoption and Safe Families Act
Vital Voices, an international initiative to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
investigating the health issues faced by 9/11 first responders
2012 Middle East ceasefire
Proposed revival of the Home Owners’ Loan Corporation
The Hillary Doctrine
Introduced the Global Hunger and Food Security Initiative
By fiscal 2012 had established a budget of $832 million for global health programs
Did this: http://cleancookstoves.org/about/our-mission/ which, if you’ve lived in a developing country and breathed the air in people’s tin and driftwood shacks and seen just about every woman affected with lung problems by the age of 30, you’d realize is really important.

Instrumental in supporting:
Arkansas State Children's Health Insurance Program
Nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses
increased research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health
a failed effort to add benefits to senior citizens, disabled veterans, and the unemployed to Bush’s stupid 2008 stimulus package
Helped found and support the Center for American Progress, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, and Media Matters for America (MMfA)

It’s hard to argue that she doesn’t support universal Health Care, but I think a core developmental episode in her pragmatic approach was the political disaster of her attempt at this in the ‘90s. Since then she has consistently introduced and supported incremental steps toward this goal.
Consistently supports raising the minimum wage
Consistently supports gun control

Voted:
against 2007 troop surge and for the withdrawal deadline
against tax cuts on the upper 25% and corporations while opposing cuts on lower income while the cycle was up and supporting them while the cycle was down.
(Said at a high-level donor event: "Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you," Sen. Clinton said. "We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good.")
against CAFTA, saying she was concerned about the lack of environmental and labor standards established. Has indicated that she has similar problems with NAFTA.
twice against the Federal Marriage Amendment
Consistently against a**hole immigrant legislation and for decent immigrant legislation
Some sources:
https://www.justice.gov/ovw/about-office
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/leslie-marshall/2014/02/19/hillary-clintons-accomplishments-speak-for-themselves
http://legacy.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/20040629-0007-ca-clintons-sanfrancisco.html
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122230767702474045
http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Hillary_Clinton_Families_+_Children.htm
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/hillary-clinton-calls-out-climate-deniers
http://www.statecolumn.com/2014/04/hillary-clinton-promotes-womens-rights-in-front-of-thousands-of-methodist-women/
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/magazine/hillary-clintons-last-tour-as-a-rock-star-diplomat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Hillary_Rodham_Clinton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton%27s_tenure_as_Secretary_of_State

[KDS]

Probably because of the amount of crimes in their communities.

That's not what the above statistics point out. What they point out is that while the criminal activity in question is relatively equal between black people and white people, black people are incarcerated more. Obviously if you are looking for specific people to commit crimes in specific communities, which the statistics prove that police are doing, then they are going to find them. It has nothing to do with which communities commit more crimes -  that's propaganda.

  Communities that fester in poverty because of liberal handouts designed to keep them living in poverty.  

I agree that poverty does lead to crime and, in fact, black Americans aren't the only targets of an unfair legal system but just about anyone in the lower class.

I would be happy to discuss the latter point about how liberal handouts are designed to keep people living in poverty. Suffice to say, there is very little proof to demonstrate that. But I'd be curious to see what you would propose instead and we can also talk about that.

Baltimore is a city that has many areas in ruins.  30-40 years of liberal leadership.  

Instead of hand outs, how about programs to help break the cycle of poverty, and encourage beneficiaries to find work?  And why is every state not requiring drug testing keep getting these benefits?  

[Emily]

A few points:
regarding bigotry - I've seen no politician ever mention the problem of undocumented European, particularly Irish, immigrants. It seems to just be Mexicans that people are so bothered by.
regarding race relations - I agree with CSM. The problem is the structural inequality, not attempts to address it.
regarding drugs - middle class and wealthy white people do lots of drugs and are rarely tested or prosecuted. It's just poor people who are considered criminals when they do drugs.

[KDS]

A few points:
regarding bigotry - I've seen no politician ever mention the problem of undocumented European, particularly Irish, immigrants. It seems to just be Mexicans that people are so bothered by.
regarding race relations - I agree with CSM. The problem is the structural inequality, not attempts to address it.
regarding drugs - middle class and wealthy white people do lots of drugs and are rarely tested or prosecuted. It's just poor people who are considered criminals when they do drugs.

Oh great, more oppression towards the Irish.  Historically, the most abused ethnic group in the history of the Unites States. 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Baltimore is a city that has many areas in ruins.  30-40 years of liberal leadership.  

Quick correction - Baltimore has faced many years of right-wing tough-on-crime Democratic leadership, following decades where the majority of displaced citizens were black which followed decades of unconstitutional segregationist policies. And let's not forget that Baltimore black Americans were targets of the subprime lending boom.

Instead of hand outs, how about programs to help break the cycle of poverty, and encourage beneficiaries to find work?

The problem is that the system itself is inherently unequal. Simply working doesn't break the cycle of poverty because the system as it exists right now is a system of exploitative wage slavery. So the question becomes, how do we overcome this inherent systemic inequality in which one is forced to rent out their labour to an owner in order to survive?

[KDS]

Baltimore is a city that has many areas in ruins.  30-40 years of liberal leadership.  

Quick correction - Baltimore has faced many years of right-wing tough-on-crime Democratic leadership, following decades where the majority of displaced citizens were black which followed decades of unconstitutional segregationist policies. And let's not forget that Baltimore black Americans were targets of the subprime lending boom.

Instead of hand outs, how about programs to help break the cycle of poverty, and encourage beneficiaries to find work?

The problem is that the system itself is inherently unequal. Simply working doesn't break the cycle of poverty because the system as it exists right now is a system of exploitative wage slavery. So the question becomes, how do we overcome this inherent systemic inequality in which one is forced to rent out their labour to an owner in order to survive?

At the end of the day, also, some of the burden has to fall on the people to have the will to want to improve their social stature. 

[Emily]

A few points:
regarding bigotry - I've seen no politician ever mention the problem of undocumented European, particularly Irish, immigrants. It seems to just be Mexicans that people are so bothered by.
regarding race relations - I agree with CSM. The problem is the structural inequality, not attempts to address it.
regarding drugs - middle class and wealthy white people do lots of drugs and are rarely tested or prosecuted. It's just poor people who are considered criminals when they do drugs.

Oh great, more oppression towards the Irish.  Historically, the most abused ethnic group in the history of the Unites States. 

ummm...
So it's not bigotry when directed to Mexicans but is "oppression" when directed towards the Irish?
And... African Americans?

[Emily]

income inequality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Baltimore is a city that has many areas in ruins.  30-40 years of liberal leadership.  

Quick correction - Baltimore has faced many years of right-wing tough-on-crime Democratic leadership, following decades where the majority of displaced citizens were black which followed decades of unconstitutional segregationist policies. And let's not forget that Baltimore black Americans were targets of the subprime lending boom.

Instead of hand outs, how about programs to help break the cycle of poverty, and encourage beneficiaries to find work?

The problem is that the system itself is inherently unequal. Simply working doesn't break the cycle of poverty because the system as it exists right now is a system of exploitative wage slavery. So the question becomes, how do we overcome this inherent systemic inequality in which one is forced to rent out their labour to an owner in order to survive?

At the end of the day, also, some of the burden has to fall on the people to have the will to want to improve their social stature.  

It's hard to speak in general terms, but I would imagine that most of them do.

The fact is that social stature, in an extreme capitalist culture, is by and large not created by individualism but by government programs and government protectionism. It just so happens that the government largely protects and helps create the wealth for the elite portions of society. That, by the way, we are not supposed to care about, which is why we are not talking about it here but are instead discussing the merits of government handouts for the poor - the smallest recipients of handouts in our modern society. Those handouts do nothing for the extremely wealthy so we are supposed to hate it. But the fact that the extremely wealthy are largely in their place because of the government is meant to be a non-issue. Much the same can be said for the middle class who almost never acknowledge that their social position was constructed as a consequence of New Deal policies and has been slowly chipped away with the disintegration of these policies.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Thanks for the info about Clinton, Emily. I'm afraid I'll have to digest it slowly.