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HeyJude
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« Reply #1675 on: November 09, 2016, 02:28:44 PM »

I think a bunch of people who voted for Trump must not have lived through or take notice of times (e.g. Cuban Missile Crisis) when the country and world was really on the brink. They don't think *that* could happen, and the chances of that happening just went from 0.0000001% to like 0.5%. And yeah, I'm sure many of the uneducated people who voted for Trump probably don't realize how much *larger* 0.5 is compared to 0.0000001.

OK, but in terms of international policy I'm not sure I see a huge distinction between Clinton and Trump, outside of the one I discussed above, which is that Trump is a bit more honest about committing international war crimes, while Clinton prefers to commit those crimes under the radar. Frankly, I see both as quite dangerous in that regard, though, yes, Trump's more brazen attitude is more worrying.

If there's an area where "temperament" is particularly a big issue, it's international affairs concerning a nuclear power. Nobody much defends Trump on the temperament issue. It's a GARGANTUAN difference between the two.

A lot of people claimed Gore and Bush were "mostly the same" when it came to things like international policy, and I think it's painfully obvious if Gore had been president we wouldn't have gone into Iraq in 2003 for instance. That one fact alone is a huge, huge, huge life and death difference.

Is it obvious? I mean, the Clinton Administration had been essentially pushing for a regime change (see the Iraq Liberation Act). And the fact is that the Clinton Administration probably ended up killing more Iraqis than Bush did. So I really see no evidence to support your argument.

The answer is at least simple, which is that I simply disagree. I guess we'll find out.
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« Reply #1676 on: November 09, 2016, 02:31:56 PM »

I think a bunch of people who voted for Trump must not have lived through or take notice of times (e.g. Cuban Missile Crisis) when the country and world was really on the brink. They don't think *that* could happen, and the chances of that happening just went from 0.0000001% to like 0.5%. And yeah, I'm sure many of the uneducated people who voted for Trump probably don't realize how much *larger* 0.5 is compared to 0.0000001.

OK, but in terms of international policy I'm not sure I see a huge distinction between Clinton and Trump, outside of the one I discussed above, which is that Trump is a bit more honest about committing international war crimes, while Clinton prefers to commit those crimes under the radar. Frankly, I see both as quite dangerous in that regard, though, yes, Trump's more brazen attitude is more worrying.

If there's an area where "temperament" is particularly a big issue, it's international affairs concerning a nuclear power. Nobody much defends Trump on the temperament issue. It's a GARGANTUAN difference between the two.

A lot of people claimed Gore and Bush were "mostly the same" when it came to things like international policy, and I think it's painfully obvious if Gore had been president we wouldn't have gone into Iraq in 2003 for instance. That one fact alone is a huge, huge, huge life and death difference.

Is it obvious? I mean, the Clinton Administration had been essentially pushing for a regime change (see the Iraq Liberation Act). And the fact is that the Clinton Administration probably ended up killing more Iraqis than Bush did. So I really see no evidence to support your argument.

The answer is at least simple, which is that I simply disagree. I guess we'll find out.


But this is a matter of fact. Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act in 1998 which was a direct precursor to the invasion that took place five years later, with pretty much the exact same rhetoric that the Bush Administration evoked. And furthermore, the Clinton enforced sanctions against Iraq quite directly lead to the deaths of 500,000 children alone, according to Unicef. Did the Bush Administration come anywhere near that?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 02:32:54 PM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
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« Reply #1677 on: November 09, 2016, 02:34:52 PM »

If we're looking outside Trump himself and those who voted for him to place some percentage of the blame (and I'm willing to include the Democratic party and Clinton in that group as well), then this news is worth chewing on:

In Florida, Hillary Clinton lost by about 1.4% of the vote – but if Jill Stein’s supporters and half of Gary Johnson’s backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

Similarly, in Pennsylvania, Clinton lost by about 1.1% of the vote – but if Jill Stein’s supporters and half of Gary Johnson’s backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Wisconsin, Clinton lost by about 1% of the vote – but if Stein’s supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Michigan, Clinton appears to be on track to lose by about 0.3% of the vote – but if half of Stein’s supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/third-party-voters-played-key-role-election-results

Consider the source.

And most of Johnson's votes came from people who normally vote Republican!

Agreed.  I haven't seen any statistics that suggest Johnson supporters would vote for Clinton if Johnson wasn't an option.  Just more excuses as to why she lost. 
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« Reply #1678 on: November 09, 2016, 02:47:53 PM »

I guess we'll find out.


We won't find out, though, because we'll never know what Clinton would have done.

However, I will say, I remember back in 2008 when despite being happy about the symbolic meaning of Obama's victory (as I would have been about Hillary's) I nevertheless thought he had offered bad policies and thought that while I was happy he had won over McCain that we should nevertheless be very critical of the administration. My friends and colleagues who supported him did not appreciate this sentiment, saying that he would be just fine. And I remember saying to a colleague words to the effect of "Let's see when he bombs his first country." And her response was, "He's not going to bomb any countries." Well, cut to a few years later, and he expanded the war in Afghanistan, committed to a drone campaign in several countries, gave decisive support to the Saudi campaign in Yemen, and so on. However, I doubt that this would come up in conversation with this colleague.
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« Reply #1679 on: November 09, 2016, 02:54:17 PM »

If we're looking outside Trump himself and those who voted for him to place some percentage of the blame (and I'm willing to include the Democratic party and Clinton in that group as well), then this news is worth chewing on:

In Florida, Hillary Clinton lost by about 1.4% of the vote – but if Jill Stein’s supporters and half of Gary Johnson’s backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

Similarly, in Pennsylvania, Clinton lost by about 1.1% of the vote – but if Jill Stein’s supporters and half of Gary Johnson’s backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Wisconsin, Clinton lost by about 1% of the vote – but if Stein’s supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Michigan, Clinton appears to be on track to lose by about 0.3% of the vote – but if half of Stein’s supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/third-party-voters-played-key-role-election-results

Consider the source.

And most of Johnson's votes came from people who normally vote Republican!

Agreed.  I haven't seen any statistics that suggest Johnson supporters would vote for Clinton if Johnson wasn't an option.  Just more excuses as to why she lost. 

The idea behind these "coulda, shouldas" is usually that the person in question (Nader, or Stein/Johnson) would need to publicly throw their support to another candidate and ask/tell their supporters to vote that way. Obviously, even *that* doesn't result in 100% carryover. But with these slim margins, enough would tend to carry over. Obviously, the Nader example required mere hundreds of Nader voters moving to Gore.
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« Reply #1680 on: November 09, 2016, 03:02:21 PM »

Quote
Every person I've talked to who dislikes Obamacare seems to:

A) Already have health insurance
B) Can offer NO solution to the vast amounts of uninsured people in the country

A) When I was unemployed and tried to go through it, my premiums were EXTREMELY high, like in the $500 range. With my job I have had for the past 2 years, I'm paying in the $80s.
B) If legalization was passed nationally, it would more than cover the costs of health care.

Obamacare is deeply flawed and in a lot of cases offers pisspoor (e.g. you'll never use it unless you're dying) insurance at expensive prices. No argument from me. But some people have benefitted, and nobody has offered an alternative other than "f**k you, you're on your own, good luck." The requirement that people can't be rejected for health insurance alone is in particular a good move in the right direction.

As for healthcare through an employer, that's almost always going to be far better than going through state exchanges via various Obamacare iterations. My healthcare through my job is WAY more expensive than yours. It's a pretty amazing plan (no deductible, very low copays, etc.).

Keep in mind, I'm for 100% socialization of healthcare. It should cost zilch for everyone. Opponents point to long waits in Canada and Europe for socialized care and all of that. My position is that most of that is incorrect, but even if it *was* true, maybe that's the price we all pay to make sure all of us don't have to worry about going to the doctor when we're sick. Talk about a basic human need and right.

My claim that "they have no alternative solutions" pertains to people that feel Obamacare is already "too socialist", so they're they type that will tend to oppose any drug legalization, and certainly oppose full socialization of the healthcare (even if legalization passed nationwide and it yielded enough money to cover it).
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« Reply #1681 on: November 09, 2016, 03:07:15 PM »

If we're looking outside Trump himself and those who voted for him to place some percentage of the blame (and I'm willing to include the Democratic party and Clinton in that group as well), then this news is worth chewing on:

In Florida, Hillary Clinton lost by about 1.4% of the vote – but if Jill Stein’s supporters and half of Gary Johnson’s backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

Similarly, in Pennsylvania, Clinton lost by about 1.1% of the vote – but if Jill Stein’s supporters and half of Gary Johnson’s backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Wisconsin, Clinton lost by about 1% of the vote – but if Stein’s supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Michigan, Clinton appears to be on track to lose by about 0.3% of the vote – but if half of Stein’s supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/third-party-voters-played-key-role-election-results

Consider the source.

And most of Johnson's votes came from people who normally vote Republican!

I'm not a big fan of any of the cable news channels, including MSNBC. I think Chris Matthews is a blowhard.

But the article is just basically crunching publically available numbers. They're not making them up. It's just addition and subtraction. As I said in another post, the culpability of Stein and Johnson is debatable. But it's irrefutable that if the X number of Stein and Johnson supporters as noted above had been swayed to Clinton via Stein and Johnson endorsements/instructions, the election would have flipped.

Again, Stein and Johnson didn't cause anything. But they could have saved the day. I think they're both mediocre candidates in their own rite, and they didn't even get a significant enough percentage of the vote to mean anything. It's a pretty textbook example of a spoiler.

I don't think if Johnson just disappeared that all of his voters would have gone to Clinton. But that Libertarian mindset, that analytical, common sense streak found with many Libertarians, would have yielded Clinton the majority of his votes, certainly at least enough to sway the election as recounted in the article.
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« Reply #1682 on: November 09, 2016, 03:10:52 PM »

Surprised at how many miss the whole point of the election results. The middle class WORKING people were fed up with Obamacare, welfare bums and immigration. Obama is/was/has been a total joke. The past eight years are what determined last nights election results.
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« Reply #1683 on: November 09, 2016, 03:12:11 PM »

Quote
Every person I've talked to who dislikes Obamacare seems to:

A) Already have health insurance
B) Can offer NO solution to the vast amounts of uninsured people in the country

A) When I was unemployed and tried to go through it, my premiums were EXTREMELY high, like in the $500 range. With my job I have had for the past 2 years, I'm paying in the $80s.
B) If legalization was passed nationally, it would more than cover the costs of health care.

Obamacare is deeply flawed and in a lot of cases offers pisspoor (e.g. you'll never use it unless you're dying) insurance at expensive prices. No argument from me. But some people have benefitted, and nobody has offered an alternative other than "f**k you, you're on your own, good luck." The requirement that people can't be rejected for health insurance alone is in particular a good move in the right direction.

As for healthcare through an employer, that's almost always going to be far better than going through state exchanges via various Obamacare iterations. My healthcare through my job is WAY more expensive than yours. It's a pretty amazing plan (no deductible, very low copays, etc.).

Keep in mind, I'm for 100% socialization of healthcare. It should cost zilch for everyone. Opponents point to long waits in Canada and Europe for socialized care and all of that. My position is that most of that is incorrect, but even if it *was* true, maybe that's the price we all pay to make sure all of us don't have to worry about going to the doctor when we're sick. Talk about a basic human need and right.

My claim that "they have no alternative solutions" pertains to people that feel Obamacare is already "too socialist", so they're they type that will tend to oppose any drug legalization, and certainly oppose full socialization of the healthcare (even if legalization passed nationwide and it yielded enough money to cover it).

I agree with a lot of this.
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« Reply #1684 on: November 09, 2016, 03:13:32 PM »

Surprised at how many miss the whole point of the election results. The middle class WORKING people were fed up with Obamacare, welfare bums and immigration. Obama is/was/has been a total joke. The past eight years are what determined last nights election results.

So you're saying we should end immigration? And, to confirm, are you saying to end welfare completely? Does that include those who are trying to get a job but haven't been able to as of yet? Or how about those with disabilities?
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« Reply #1685 on: November 09, 2016, 03:13:59 PM »

Surprised at how many miss the whole point of the election results. The middle class WORKING people were fed up with Obamacare, welfare bums and immigration. Obama is/was/has been a total joke. The past eight years are what determined last nights election results.

Actually, that's what a lot of people are saying in different ways on both sides - after all, that's what liberals mean when they say that moronic racists swayed the vote. I will admit that my take is different because I believe that the American voters are smart enough not to be swayed the outlandish fabrication that Obamacare, welfare fraud, and immigration is what's causing problems in the United States.
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« Reply #1686 on: November 09, 2016, 03:14:15 PM »

Surprised at how many miss the whole point of the election results. The middle class WORKING people were fed up with Obamacare, welfare bums and immigration. Obama is/was/has been a total joke. The past eight years are what determined last nights election results.

That could be said for every election where someone isn't returning for another term. But Obama didn't run, so it's impossible to know.

Geez, it's almost always a confluence of many things. Not liking the current guy, not like the opponent, loathing the guy you're voting for less, whatever.

I'd like to know how many people who are fed up with Obamacare have health insurance already. I'd also like to know what their alternative is what will end up costing everybody LESS money. The only idea I've heard is pretty much "if you don't have insurance or can't get it, good luck Mfer."
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« Reply #1687 on: November 09, 2016, 03:21:31 PM »

The point is completely false anyhow. Obama's popularity level is quite high, comparatively speaking. Quite conceivably, in fact almost certainly, many of the people who voted for Trump this time around voted for Obama in previous elections and continue to approve of his work.
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« Reply #1688 on: November 09, 2016, 03:25:26 PM »

The Republican Party controls all levels of congress and the democrats are in ruins. Crazy times ahead for sure.
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« Reply #1689 on: November 09, 2016, 03:43:36 PM »

The Republican Party controls all levels of congress and the democrats are in ruins. Crazy times ahead for sure.

if it was up to me, both parties would be in flames and we'd start over the right way.

It's time to END the 2 party system. past time.

#WeHaveNoVoiceYetWeMustScream
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« Reply #1690 on: November 09, 2016, 03:48:29 PM »

I don't think (and we'll obviously never know) Sanders would have won. His lack of scandal baggage would have been balanced out by less name recognition, being considered too far left (I disagree, but that would be the perception), and other personality ticks that shouldn't have been an issue but would have in a race where false equivalency was a regular theme.

I'm not sure anyone, barring perhaps Obama running for a third term, could have pulled this election out from this huge block of ignorant, uneducated voters. And I don't say this in a "the word of the disenfranchised people will not be ignored!" sort of way, I mean it in an "ignorance perhaps had no chance of being overcome" sort of way.

I'm already seeing Michelle Obama's name being thrown around for 2020. It would certainly test the theory of whether people will vote for a woman. If there's still a country left to have an election in 2020.

Yeah.  I can't see Sanders having won.  There would have been way too many middle-of-the-road type people who would have perceived him as being too leftist.  No way. 

 

The fact that someone like Sanders is potentially seen as too left shows just how f***ed the American political spectrum is - it's way too far to the right, to the point where a conservative (Clinton) would be derided as a leftist and an extremist (Trump) gets elected.....
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« Reply #1691 on: November 09, 2016, 03:59:30 PM »

I don't think (and we'll obviously never know) Sanders would have won. His lack of scandal baggage would have been balanced out by less name recognition, being considered too far left (I disagree, but that would be the perception), and other personality ticks that shouldn't have been an issue but would have in a race where false equivalency was a regular theme.

I'm not sure anyone, barring perhaps Obama running for a third term, could have pulled this election out from this huge block of ignorant, uneducated voters. And I don't say this in a "the word of the disenfranchised people will not be ignored!" sort of way, I mean it in an "ignorance perhaps had no chance of being overcome" sort of way.

I'm already seeing Michelle Obama's name being thrown around for 2020. It would certainly test the theory of whether people will vote for a woman. If there's still a country left to have an election in 2020.

Yeah.  I can't see Sanders having won.  There would have been way too many middle-of-the-road type people who would have perceived him as being too leftist.  No way. 

 

The fact that someone like Sanders is potentially seen as too left shows just how f***ed the American political spectrum is - it's way too far to the right, to the point where a conservative (Clinton) would be derided as a leftist and an extremist (Trump) gets elected.....

Agreed. And glad somebody else besides me is pointing out how Clinton is a conservative posing as a democrat.

#WeHaveNoVoiceYetWeMustScream
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« Reply #1692 on: November 09, 2016, 04:06:50 PM »

Surprised at how many miss the whole point of the election results. The middle class WORKING people were fed up with Obamacare, welfare bums and immigration. Obama is/was/has been a total joke. The past eight years are what determined last nights election results.

So you're saying we should end immigration? And, to confirm, are you saying to end welfare completely? Does that include those who are trying to get a job but haven't been able to as of yet? Or how about those with disabilities?

Typical democratic response. I did NOT say to end any of those did I?  Welfare needs reformed. I said BUMS, not the ones who need it. The ones who make a living off the system and won't get off their asses while getting a check.  And yes immigration needs reformed. Can't keep letting them flood into the country just to get on welfare. Don't even mention Obamacare and what is wrong with that program. These issues are what caused the silent majority , middle class WORKING people, to vote why they did. Fact is, they got Trump elected. You are the one who put extra words and meanings in my post to fit your agenda.
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« Reply #1693 on: November 09, 2016, 04:22:07 PM »

I don't think (and we'll obviously never know) Sanders would have won. His lack of scandal baggage would have been balanced out by less name recognition, being considered too far left (I disagree, but that would be the perception), and other personality ticks that shouldn't have been an issue but would have in a race where false equivalency was a regular theme.

I'm not sure anyone, barring perhaps Obama running for a third term, could have pulled this election out from this huge block of ignorant, uneducated voters. And I don't say this in a "the word of the disenfranchised people will not be ignored!" sort of way, I mean it in an "ignorance perhaps had no chance of being overcome" sort of way.

I'm already seeing Michelle Obama's name being thrown around for 2020. It would certainly test the theory of whether people will vote for a woman. If there's still a country left to have an election in 2020.

Yeah.  I can't see Sanders having won.  There would have been way too many middle-of-the-road type people who would have perceived him as being too leftist.  No way. 

 

The fact that someone like Sanders is potentially seen as too left shows just how f***ed the American political spectrum is - it's way too far to the right, to the point where a conservative (Clinton) would be derided as a leftist and an extremist (Trump) gets elected.....

Agreed. And glad somebody else besides me is pointing out how Clinton is a conservative posing as a democrat.

#WeHaveNoVoiceYetWeMustScream

I agree as well. I'm probably left of Bernie Sanders.

We can't spend our entire lives voting based on just avoiding awful things instead of striving for good things, but this was just not the election to test that idea.
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« Reply #1694 on: November 09, 2016, 04:24:41 PM »

 Welfare needs reformed. I said BUMS, not the ones who need it. The ones who make a living off the system and won't get off their asses while getting a check.  And yes immigration needs reformed. Can't keep letting them flood into the country just to get on welfare.

Okay, but your comments about welfare are a complete fantasy. If anything, both parties have gutted the welfare system over the years, resulting in a dramatic increase in poverty and homelessness. In fact, Clinton's welfare reform laws in the 90s, as enacted by the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act, largely destroyed any kind of serious welfare system in the country. The fact that people point to Democrats as being lax when it comes to welfare is pretty good evidence of how successful the right-wing propaganda system has been at deluding Americans into accepting a distorted false reality as the truth. In this case it's downright Orwellian that people accept the opposite of the truth as being the truth.
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« Reply #1695 on: November 09, 2016, 04:25:40 PM »

The point is completely false anyhow. Obama's popularity level is quite high, comparatively speaking. Quite conceivably, in fact almost certainly, many of the people who voted for Trump this time around voted for Obama in previous elections and continue to approve of his work.

One train of thought would be that this indicates independent critical thinkers. On the other hand, it might just indicate fickle, ignorant, confused, uneducated folks. We'll never be able to prove it one way or the other I guess, but I think it's mostly the latter. And certainly the "uneducated" and "less educated" aspect is supported to some degree by hard statistics.
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« Reply #1696 on: November 09, 2016, 04:27:24 PM »

Surprised at how many miss the whole point of the election results. The middle class WORKING people were fed up with Obamacare, welfare bums and immigration. Obama is/was/has been a total joke. The past eight years are what determined last nights election results.

So you're saying we should end immigration? And, to confirm, are you saying to end welfare completely? Does that include those who are trying to get a job but haven't been able to as of yet? Or how about those with disabilities?

Typical democratic response. I did NOT say to end any of those did I?  Welfare needs reformed. I said BUMS, not the ones who need it. The ones who make a living off the system and won't get off their asses while getting a check.  And yes immigration needs reformed. Can't keep letting them flood into the country just to get on welfare. Don't even mention Obamacare and what is wrong with that program. These issues are what caused the silent majority , middle class WORKING people, to vote why they did. Fact is, they got Trump elected. You are the one who put extra words and meanings in my post to fit your agenda.

It matters not one bit other than semantically, but Trump voters can't be the "silent majority" when he got sightly less votes.
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« Reply #1697 on: November 09, 2016, 04:37:01 PM »

Surprised at how many miss the whole point of the election results. The middle class WORKING people were fed up with Obamacare, welfare bums and immigration. Obama is/was/has been a total joke. The past eight years are what determined last nights election results.

So you're saying we should end immigration? And, to confirm, are you saying to end welfare completely? Does that include those who are trying to get a job but haven't been able to as of yet? Or how about those with disabilities?

Typical democratic response. I did NOT say to end any of those did I?  Welfare needs reformed. I said BUMS, not the ones who need it. The ones who make a living off the system and won't get off their asses while getting a check.  And yes immigration needs reformed. Can't keep letting them flood into the country just to get on welfare. Don't even mention Obamacare and what is wrong with that program. These issues are what caused the silent majority , middle class WORKING people, to vote why they did. Fact is, they got Trump elected. You are the one who put extra words and meanings in my post to fit your agenda.

Typical republican response.  You put working in all caps  so that makes the welfare bums comment look a bit suspect. Your just had immigration listed...did not state you wanted immigration reform. And I have indeed stated I think Obama care is broken.

Oh, and I'm not a Democrat and have said such many times.   You are the one who has ignored my words to suit your agenda.
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« Reply #1698 on: November 09, 2016, 04:38:27 PM »

Welfare needs reformed. I said BUMS, not the ones who need it. The ones who make a living off the system and won't get off their asses while getting a check.  And yes immigration needs reformed. Can't keep letting them flood into the country just to get on welfare.

Okay, but your comments about welfare are a complete fantasy. If anything, both parties have gutted the welfare system over the years, resulting in a dramatic increase in poverty and homelessness. In fact, Clinton's welfare reform laws in the 90s, as enacted by the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act, largely destroyed any kind of serious welfare system in the country. The fact that people point to Democrats as being lax when it comes to welfare is pretty good evidence of how successful the right-wing propaganda system has been at deluding Americans into accepting a distorted false reality as the truth. In this case it's downright Orwellian that people accept the opposite of the truth as being the truth.

Thank you.
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« Reply #1699 on: November 09, 2016, 04:40:41 PM »

I don't think (and we'll obviously never know) Sanders would have won. His lack of scandal baggage would have been balanced out by less name recognition, being considered too far left (I disagree, but that would be the perception), and other personality ticks that shouldn't have been an issue but would have in a race where false equivalency was a regular theme.

I'm not sure anyone, barring perhaps Obama running for a third term, could have pulled this election out from this huge block of ignorant, uneducated voters. And I don't say this in a "the word of the disenfranchised people will not be ignored!" sort of way, I mean it in an "ignorance perhaps had no chance of being overcome" sort of way.

I'm already seeing Michelle Obama's name being thrown around for 2020. It would certainly test the theory of whether people will vote for a woman. If there's still a country left to have an election in 2020.

Yeah.  I can't see Sanders having won.  There would have been way too many middle-of-the-road type people who would have perceived him as being too leftist.  No way. 

 

The fact that someone like Sanders is potentially seen as too left shows just how f***ed the American political spectrum is - it's way too far to the right, to the point where a conservative (Clinton) would be derided as a leftist and an extremist (Trump) gets elected.....

Agreed. And glad somebody else besides me is pointing out how Clinton is a conservative posing as a democrat.

#WeHaveNoVoiceYetWeMustScream

I agree as well. I'm probably left of Bernie Sanders.

We can't spend our entire lives voting based on just avoiding awful things instead of striving for good things, but this was just not the election to test that idea.

Going forward,  though,  I hope more people do. I said it on FB and I'll say it here...we're living Pink Floyd's "Animals". Pigs Vs Dogs, and the 99% are the sheep.
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_______________________________________________________
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"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
________________________________________________
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Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





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