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♩♬🐸 Murry the Friendly Ghost ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #1650 on: November 09, 2016, 12:04:43 PM »

What makes it bad is that many of the people who voted for Trump were people who wanted an alleged "outsider" in there. I can definitely understand that sentiment, it was just the wrong person to be selected.
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« Reply #1651 on: November 09, 2016, 12:27:24 PM »

I don't normally comment on political stuff, but I'm very, very disappointed in this year's entire election process, from start to finish, from choices to results, and especially the whole tone of the campaign.



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« Reply #1652 on: November 09, 2016, 12:33:17 PM »

Sadly, political junkies (who actually *likes* this stuff as if it's the same as being into sports or something?) and pundits will be spending the next months, years, and decades writing about equally useless theories as to *why* people voted this way. It doesn't really matter, because even the people voting the way they do are often not honest with themselves or others about why they voted that way. People who are probably racist, misogynistic, etc. usually tend to not want to actually admit it about themselves.


You don't think that people who have seen their standard of life becoming worse and worse by the dominant political system had a reason for voting against the candidate who best represented that system other than the fact that they are racist and misogynistic? After all, don't people who vote for the other team, frequently think of their candidate as a lesser of two evils? Don't you think there are people out there who despise the racist and misogynistic elements of the Trump campaign but nevertheless see him the person who will more positively affect their lives?

Personally, I think that many liberals are now quite out of touch with what's happening in the country and the genuine concerns that people have and when we continue to write-off these concerns as coming from racists and misogynists, it only deepens the hole that they are digging for themselves. Not long ago this was a position occupied by the Republicans, but I'm not sure that they are the only ones in that role now.

It has become increasingly obvious that they are just two sides of the same coin.  Traditional and social media has had a lot to do with this, in my opinion.
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« Reply #1653 on: November 09, 2016, 12:43:40 PM »

Sadly, political junkies (who actually *likes* this stuff as if it's the same as being into sports or something?) and pundits will be spending the next months, years, and decades writing about equally useless theories as to *why* people voted this way. It doesn't really matter, because even the people voting the way they do are often not honest with themselves or others about why they voted that way. People who are probably racist, misogynistic, etc. usually tend to not want to actually admit it about themselves.


You don't think that people who have seen their standard of life becoming worse and worse by the dominant political system had a reason for voting against the candidate who best represented that system other than the fact that they are racist and misogynistic? After all, don't people who vote for the other team, frequently think of their candidate as a lesser of two evils? Don't you think there are people out there who despise the racist and misogynistic elements of the Trump campaign but nevertheless see him the person who will more positively affect their lives?

Personally, I think that many liberals are now quite out of touch with what's happening in the country and the genuine concerns that people have and when we continue to write-off these concerns as coming from racists and misogynists, it only deepens the hole that they are digging for themselves. Not long ago this was a position occupied by the Republicans, but I'm not sure that they are the only ones in that role now.

It has become increasingly obvious that they are just two sides of the same coin.  Traditional and social media has had a lot to do with this, in my opinion.

Yeah, last night proved it. Chris Matthews mocking the people outraged over the Flint water crisis spoke volumes (for those who missed it, he used a mocking voice that Trump uses when he mocked people with disabilities, and said something like "ooh, we don't have clean drinking water how sad")
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« Reply #1654 on: November 09, 2016, 01:17:52 PM »

You don't think that people who have seen their standard of life becoming worse and worse by the dominant political system had a reason for voting against the candidate who best represented that system other than the fact that they are racist and misogynistic? After all, don't people who vote for the other team, frequently think of their candidate as a lesser of two evils? Don't you think there are people out there who despise the racist and misogynistic elements of the Trump campaign but nevertheless see him the person who will more positively affect their lives?

Personally, I think that many liberals are now quite out of touch with what's happening in the country and the genuine concerns that people have and when we continue to write-off these concerns as coming from racists and misogynists, it only deepens the hole that they are digging for themselves. Not long ago this was a position occupied by the Republicans, but I'm not sure that they are the only ones in that role now.

Sure, I think people had a myriad of reasons for voting against Clinton. I'm sure folks out there saw their life getting worse and saw Clinton as representative of that. However, as many would say the two candidates represented the equivalent of getting kicked in the nuts (Clinton) versus having one's head chopped off (Trump), anyone who thinks their life is going to be better is misguided.

I'd also say that, while any party after an election, however close or blow-out of an election it is, needs to take a hard look at everything to do with their party and platform.

But this "out of touch" thing doesn't ring very true when Trump has apparently garnered *slightly less* votes than Hillary Clinton. That tells me not that there's a huge wave of discontent, but just enough discontent mixed with closet misogyny, closet racism, etc. to swing the electoral college. A huge f**k-up on the part of Clinton, no question.

I *LOATHE* whenever pundits try to state whether a winner has a "mandate" after an election, but slightly losing the popular vote is not particularly a huge mandate for Trump.

I also still suspect, and this is literally for *nothing*, that much like Brexit, if the election were held today, you'd probably see Clinton squeak by with a victory. There's enough people who are so ill-informed and wishy-washy (as compared to loyal Trump supporters, whose clarity and honesty in their choice at least is to be commended) that some of those folks probably don't realize what they did, either by not voting, or my wasting their vote on a third party candidate who wasn't even a good choice if they had had a chance, or by voting for Trump.

The "this awful thing is going to happen, it's happening, it has hapened, how the f**k did that just happen?" phenomenon amazes me. It's almost as if a small number of people today are literally lying about voting for Trump, or not admitting being complicit in his election by not voting or wasting their vote on a third party candidate. If the situation weren't so dire, I'd find the phenomenon intensely interesting. I guess I still should, because it's certainly important.

That people *feel* they needed to vote for Trump should not be ignored. To deduce a reason behind it that doesn't involve ignorance is a much taller order. I don't have the answers, but the answer isn't to bow to what *those* people want.
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« Reply #1655 on: November 09, 2016, 01:18:27 PM »

What makes it bad is that many of the people who voted for Trump were people who wanted an alleged "outsider" in there. I can definitely understand that sentiment, it was just the wrong person to be selected.

Agreed. As I said above, I think it was a real fault of the left to not be able to tap into the kind of anti-establishment sentiment that has clearly been building in the country for years. Unfortunately, the Democratic Party was overconfident that the voters would go for the status quo establishment, an overconfidence that was nicely symbolized by Clinton not visiting states like Wisconsin because her team thought it would be a slam dunk. This party has severely mis-read the American public and, in my opinion, continues to do so in the way that they are reacting to this loss.
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« Reply #1656 on: November 09, 2016, 01:20:06 PM »

There are no doubt disappointed voters who are saying unfortunate things, as there always is in any election. I don稚 think these people speak for the majority of people who simply didn稚 want the whole country to go to hell and tried to stop it.

There痴 plenty of blame to go around, and Clinton and the Democratic party (both citizen members and the party痴 infrastructure) needs to assess a s**t-ton of things. But to lay a significant amount (or most) of blame on them is missing the point in my opinion.

I知 not prepared to let 55+ million people who voted for a guy with Trump痴 temperament off the hook, sorry. This isn稚 a 土ou like vanilla, I like chocolate kind of scenario. It isn稚 going to help when some calamity strikes the country to know that some of those 55 million just thought, gosh, I never thought something *that* bad could happen.
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« Reply #1657 on: November 09, 2016, 01:23:43 PM »

What makes it bad is that many of the people who voted for Trump were people who wanted an alleged "outsider" in there. I can definitely understand that sentiment, it was just the wrong person to be selected.

I think that's the main point. It's like having a brain tumor and instead of choosing radiation treatment that will suck but *might* help you, choosing to cut your nuts off with a rusty kitchen knife.

It's like 2 +2 = mitten

I think a bunch of people who voted for Trump must not have lived through or take notice of times (e.g. Cuban Missile Crisis) when the country and world was really on the brink. They don't think *that* could happen, and the chances of that happening just went from 0.0000001% to like 0.5%. And yeah, I'm sure many of the uneducated people who voted for Trump probably don't realize how much *larger* 0.5 is compared to 0.0000001.
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« Reply #1658 on: November 09, 2016, 01:26:13 PM »

Sure, I think people had a myriad of reasons for voting against Clinton. I'm sure folks out there saw their life getting worse and saw Clinton as representative of that. However, as many would say the two candidates represented the equivalent of getting kicked in the nuts (Clinton) versus having one's head chopped off (Trump), anyone who thinks their life is going to be better is misguided.

I absolutely agree that these voters are misguided but that's nothing new, and certainly not unique to Trump voters. Similarly, many bought into Obama's message of hope and change in 2008, and that was just a PR campaign.

Quote
But this "out of touch" thing doesn't ring very true when Trump has apparently garnered *slightly less* votes than Hillary Clinton. That tells me not that there's a huge wave of discontent, but just enough discontent mixed with closet misogyny, closet racism, etc. to swing the electoral college. A huge f**k-up on the part of Clinton, no question.

I see what you are saying but I would call them out of touch even if the Democrats won the election. The fact is that both parties has been out of touch for decades, with voter turnout becoming increasingly abysmal. So I suppose the point is that the Democratic Party is as out of touch as it ever was.
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« Reply #1659 on: November 09, 2016, 01:30:02 PM »

I think a bunch of people who voted for Trump must not have lived through or take notice of times (e.g. Cuban Missile Crisis) when the country and world was really on the brink. They don't think *that* could happen, and the chances of that happening just went from 0.0000001% to like 0.5%. And yeah, I'm sure many of the uneducated people who voted for Trump probably don't realize how much *larger* 0.5 is compared to 0.0000001.

OK, but in terms of international policy I'm not sure I see a huge distinction between Clinton and Trump, outside of the one I discussed above, which is that Trump is a bit more honest about committing international war crimes, while Clinton prefers to commit those crimes under the radar. Frankly, I see both as quite dangerous in that regard, though, yes, Trump's more brazen attitude is more worrying.
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« Reply #1660 on: November 09, 2016, 01:33:55 PM »

What makes it bad is that many of the people who voted for Trump were people who wanted an alleged "outsider" in there. I can definitely understand that sentiment, it was just the wrong person to be selected.

Agreed. As I said above, I think it was a real fault of the left to not be able to tap into the kind of anti-establishment sentiment that has clearly been building in the country for years. Unfortunately, the Democratic Party was overconfident that the voters would go for the status quo establishment, an overconfidence that was nicely symbolized by Clinton not visiting states like Wisconsin because her team thought it would be a slam dunk. This party has severely mis-read the American public and, in my opinion, continues to do so in the way that they are reacting to this loss.

What also hurt is that there were valid criticisms that were ignored and/or dismissed. The email thing is just one...because overlooked in that whole fiasco was confirmation IN THE EMAILS that Clinton was indeed given advance notice of the questions during the primaries by Donna Brazile. That's kind of a big thing, and just another sign of how badly rigged the PRIMARIES were (note:not the actual election like the Orange Goblin kept claiming). That rubbed many people the wrong way. I think there's a reason why areas that traditionally have voted Democratic switched this go-round. I don't think it was so much Trump winning as it was Clinton losing due to hubris
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« Reply #1661 on: November 09, 2016, 01:35:25 PM »

Politics have turned us into an incredibly irrational and thin-skinned lot.  I knew there would be a lot of kicking and screaming today over Trump's victory, but holy sh_t, I have been rendered speechless by the level of absurdity people have elevated their grief to. We have scores of people, adults mind you, that are totally and utterly convinced and terrified that Trump is actively going to go "open season" on minorities, is going to blindly nuke countries on a whim, and set our country back 100 or so years.  Exactly how the hell is he going to accomplish these things?  Has it occurred to any of these people that he will likely be surrounded by a team of people that will keep him in check, (hopefully) take his Twitter away, and help him regulate his policies?  Plus, virtually all of these impractical fears people seem to have of him could actually never be carried out by him alone.  Seriously.  That's what the House and Senate are for.  And his own party is already weary of him.  So even if he is truly as nutty as his critics believe him to be, there isn't much he can get away with on his own.  

Don't get me wrong: there are plenty of completely valid reasons not to like this guy.  And he's created most of his own problems.  But the rampant hysteria I've seen today reiterates for me exactly why a guy like Trump won the election in the first place.  The overwhelming political correctness has created a life of its own and people are living in complete fantasy land.  
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« Reply #1662 on: November 09, 2016, 01:39:06 PM »

Rumor has it Hillary will be locked up soon
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« Reply #1663 on: November 09, 2016, 01:46:33 PM »

Politics have turned us into an incredibly irrational and thin-skinned lot.  I knew there would be a lot of kicking and screaming today over Trump's victory, but holy sh_t, I have been rendered speechless by the level of absurdity people have elevated their grief to. We have scores of people, adults mind you, that are totally and utterly convinced and terrified that Trump is actively going to go "open season" on minorities, is going to blindly nuke countries on a whim, and set our country back 100 or so years.  Exactly how the hell is he going to accomplish these things?  Has it occurred to any of these people that he will likely be surrounded by a team of people that will keep him in check, (hopefully) take his Twitter away, and help him regulate his policies?  Plus, virtually all of these impractical fears people seem to have of him could actually never be carried out by him alone.  Seriously.  That's what the House and Senate are for.  And his own party is already weary of him.  So even if he is truly as nutty as his critics believe him to be, there isn't much he can get away with on his own.

Well, you aren't mentioning that the Republicans now also control the Senate and the House, and the party has been pretty quick to fold under Trump's wing, so who knows how much opposition he might be face. Add that to the fact that Trump will likely be shifting the Supreme Court, and you have a situation where he could very well do a lot of serious damage.
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« Reply #1664 on: November 09, 2016, 01:55:56 PM »

Quote
Well, you aren't mentioning that the Republicans now also control the Senate and the House...

That's what REALLY scares me
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« Reply #1665 on: November 09, 2016, 01:58:17 PM »

Politics have turned us into an incredibly irrational and thin-skinned lot.  I knew there would be a lot of kicking and screaming today over Trump's victory, but holy sh_t, I have been rendered speechless by the level of absurdity people have elevated their grief to. We have scores of people, adults mind you, that are totally and utterly convinced and terrified that Trump is actively going to go "open season" on minorities, is going to blindly nuke countries on a whim, and set our country back 100 or so years.  Exactly how the hell is he going to accomplish these things?  Has it occurred to any of these people that he will likely be surrounded by a team of people that will keep him in check, (hopefully) take his Twitter away, and help him regulate his policies?  Plus, virtually all of these impractical fears people seem to have of him could actually never be carried out by him alone.  Seriously.  That's what the House and Senate are for.  And his own party is already weary of him.  So even if he is truly as nutty as his critics believe him to be, there isn't much he can get away with on his own.

Well, you aren't mentioning that the Republicans now also control the Senate and the House, and the party has been pretty quick to fold under Trump's wing, so who knows how much opposition he might be face. Add that to the fact that Trump will likely be shifting the Supreme Court, and you have a situation where he could very well do a lot of serious damage.

Regarding Supreme Court picks and the House and Senate, the "serious damage" he could do is subjective.  Personally I thought Obama's implausible health care system has done serious damage.  But I'm more referring to the more radical fears people have adopted over him.  Like hunting down minorities, or reversing gay marriage, etc.  
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« Reply #1666 on: November 09, 2016, 02:06:11 PM »

Regarding Supreme Court picks and the House and Senate, the "serious damage" he could do is subjective.  Personally I thought Obama's implausible health care system has done serious damage.

I'm not so sure it's subjective. Damage is damage. But I agree that many people have a pretty distorted view on what damage can be. For example, when Obamacare was Romneycare, the Republicans loved it. But because they are fringe extremists, hell bent on opposing Obama's policies on principle, they naturally turned against the policy they formerly supported and then voted over 50 times in an effort to revamp it and thwart it. While I thought Obamacare as a right-wing pro-business health care plan was a pretty lousy idea, though marginally better than the inhumane barbaric system that existed before it, I nevertheless feel that no plan could do particularly well when an entire wing of political extremists was determined to undermine it, not because of what it represented but because who was putting it forward. The Obamacare example is pretty good proof of the serious damage that can be done when an extremist party decides that their policy is to only be reactionary rather than political.
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« Reply #1667 on: November 09, 2016, 02:15:16 PM »

Let me say, and again it's for nothing, as a staunch liberal who supports more socialization of programs, I think "Obamacare" is a deeply flawed program, but it's much better than nothing.

Every person I've talked to who dislikes Obamacare seems to:

A) Already have health insurance
B) Can offer NO solution to the vast amounts of uninsured people in the country

Now, if you think many uninsured (and "underinsured") people aren't a big issue and "not your problem", that's fair enough. But then you're nowt allowed to be outraged if someone calls you a heartless, compassionless a-hole.

I'm not big on prognostication, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that any changes Trump would make to Obamacare, from small to drastic, will result in just as much and likely a much larger clusterf**k when it comes to the issue of health insurance in this country.
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« Reply #1668 on: November 09, 2016, 02:17:09 PM »

If we're looking outside Trump himself and those who voted for him to place some percentage of the blame (and I'm willing to include the Democratic party and Clinton in that group as well), then this news is worth chewing on:

In Florida, Hillary Clinton lost by about 1.4% of the vote but if Jill Stein痴 supporters and half of Gary Johnson痴 backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

Similarly, in Pennsylvania, Clinton lost by about 1.1% of the vote but if Jill Stein痴 supporters and half of Gary Johnson痴 backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Wisconsin, Clinton lost by about 1% of the vote but if Stein痴 supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Michigan, Clinton appears to be on track to lose by about 0.3% of the vote but if half of Stein痴 supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/third-party-voters-played-key-role-election-results
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« Reply #1669 on: November 09, 2016, 02:21:25 PM »

If we're looking outside Trump himself and those who voted for him to place some percentage of the blame (and I'm willing to include the Democratic party and Clinton in that group as well), then this news is worth chewing on:

In Florida, Hillary Clinton lost by about 1.4% of the vote but if Jill Stein痴 supporters and half of Gary Johnson痴 backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

Similarly, in Pennsylvania, Clinton lost by about 1.1% of the vote but if Jill Stein痴 supporters and half of Gary Johnson痴 backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Wisconsin, Clinton lost by about 1% of the vote but if Stein痴 supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Michigan, Clinton appears to be on track to lose by about 0.3% of the vote but if half of Stein痴 supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/third-party-voters-played-key-role-election-results

Yes, but I'm curious if MSNBC makes the point there that if the DNC had put forth a strong candidate, Trump would have lost the election.
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« Reply #1670 on: November 09, 2016, 02:21:47 PM »

I think a bunch of people who voted for Trump must not have lived through or take notice of times (e.g. Cuban Missile Crisis) when the country and world was really on the brink. They don't think *that* could happen, and the chances of that happening just went from 0.0000001% to like 0.5%. And yeah, I'm sure many of the uneducated people who voted for Trump probably don't realize how much *larger* 0.5 is compared to 0.0000001.

OK, but in terms of international policy I'm not sure I see a huge distinction between Clinton and Trump, outside of the one I discussed above, which is that Trump is a bit more honest about committing international war crimes, while Clinton prefers to commit those crimes under the radar. Frankly, I see both as quite dangerous in that regard, though, yes, Trump's more brazen attitude is more worrying.

If there's an area where "temperament" is particularly a big issue, it's international affairs concerning a nuclear power. Nobody much defends Trump on the temperament issue. It's a GARGANTUAN difference between the two.

A lot of people claimed Gore and Bush were "mostly the same" when it came to things like international policy, and I think it's painfully obvious if Gore had been president we wouldn't have gone into Iraq in 2003 for instance. That one fact alone is a huge, huge, huge life and death difference.
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« Reply #1671 on: November 09, 2016, 02:25:22 PM »

I think a bunch of people who voted for Trump must not have lived through or take notice of times (e.g. Cuban Missile Crisis) when the country and world was really on the brink. They don't think *that* could happen, and the chances of that happening just went from 0.0000001% to like 0.5%. And yeah, I'm sure many of the uneducated people who voted for Trump probably don't realize how much *larger* 0.5 is compared to 0.0000001.

OK, but in terms of international policy I'm not sure I see a huge distinction between Clinton and Trump, outside of the one I discussed above, which is that Trump is a bit more honest about committing international war crimes, while Clinton prefers to commit those crimes under the radar. Frankly, I see both as quite dangerous in that regard, though, yes, Trump's more brazen attitude is more worrying.

If there's an area where "temperament" is particularly a big issue, it's international affairs concerning a nuclear power. Nobody much defends Trump on the temperament issue. It's a GARGANTUAN difference between the two.

A lot of people claimed Gore and Bush were "mostly the same" when it came to things like international policy, and I think it's painfully obvious if Gore had been president we wouldn't have gone into Iraq in 2003 for instance. That one fact alone is a huge, huge, huge life and death difference.

Is it obvious? I mean, the Clinton Administration had been essentially pushing for a regime change (see the Iraq Liberation Act). And the fact is that the Clinton Administration probably ended up killing more Iraqis than Bush did. So I really see no evidence to support your argument.
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« Reply #1672 on: November 09, 2016, 02:26:21 PM »

If we're looking outside Trump himself and those who voted for him to place some percentage of the blame (and I'm willing to include the Democratic party and Clinton in that group as well), then this news is worth chewing on:

In Florida, Hillary Clinton lost by about 1.4% of the vote but if Jill Stein痴 supporters and half of Gary Johnson痴 backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

Similarly, in Pennsylvania, Clinton lost by about 1.1% of the vote but if Jill Stein痴 supporters and half of Gary Johnson痴 backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Wisconsin, Clinton lost by about 1% of the vote but if Stein痴 supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Michigan, Clinton appears to be on track to lose by about 0.3% of the vote but if half of Stein痴 supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/third-party-voters-played-key-role-election-results

Yes, but I'm curious if MSNBC makes the point there that if the DNC had put forth a strong candidate, Trump would have lost the election.

*Of course*. This is the same circular thing that happened in 2000. I'm not suggesting Stein and Johnson and their supporters alone caused all of this. They didn't really *cause* anything. But they *could* have stopped it, and people were telling them that for months and months.

As with Nader, Stein and Johnson could have been the heroes of this election. If they had thrown their support towards Clinton, they could easily have gotten some sort of cabinet or other token government position (at worst) as a "thank you." They could have actually affected some actual change working with Clinton.

As it stands now, they'll join other reviled and certainly marginalized characters such as Nader. The only reason Nader has maintained any modicum of note is that he had a respectable career prior to politics as a consumer advocate.
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« Reply #1673 on: November 09, 2016, 02:26:29 PM »

Quote
Every person I've talked to who dislikes Obamacare seems to:

A) Already have health insurance
B) Can offer NO solution to the vast amounts of uninsured people in the country

A) When I was unemployed and tried to go through it, my premiums were EXTREMELY high, like in the $500 range. With my job I have had for the past 2 years, I'm paying in the $80s.
B) If legalization was passed nationally, it would more than cover the costs of health care.
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« Reply #1674 on: November 09, 2016, 02:27:30 PM »

If we're looking outside Trump himself and those who voted for him to place some percentage of the blame (and I'm willing to include the Democratic party and Clinton in that group as well), then this news is worth chewing on:

In Florida, Hillary Clinton lost by about 1.4% of the vote but if Jill Stein痴 supporters and half of Gary Johnson痴 backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

Similarly, in Pennsylvania, Clinton lost by about 1.1% of the vote but if Jill Stein痴 supporters and half of Gary Johnson痴 backers had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Wisconsin, Clinton lost by about 1% of the vote but if Stein痴 supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.

In Michigan, Clinton appears to be on track to lose by about 0.3% of the vote but if half of Stein痴 supporters had voted Democratic, Trump would have lost the state.


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/third-party-voters-played-key-role-election-results

Consider the source.

And most of Johnson's votes came from people who normally vote Republican!
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