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Emily
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« Reply #1625 on: November 08, 2016, 11:40:55 PM »

Looks like the Tortoise is about to beat the Hare.
Actually, it looks like the hare is beating the tortoise; it looks like this country is stupider than imaginable.

You think he got to where he is with luck, you underestimated him and you clung to statistics that favored the candidate that you wanted to win.

Tortoise won, fair and square.
He wasn't the tortoise. You are completely misusing that analogy. Do you understand the lesson of that fable at all? Do you think he ran the slow and steady race? It makes no sense.
And yes, he got where he is with luck. And I did not underestimate him. I underestimated, as I said, the stupidity and hatred of the American public.
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« Reply #1626 on: November 08, 2016, 11:45:22 PM »

Looks like the Tortoise is about to beat the Hare.
Actually, it looks like the hare is beating the tortoise; it looks like this country is stupider than imaginable.

You think he got to where he is with luck, you underestimated him and you clung to statistics that favored the candidate that you wanted to win.

Tortoise won, fair and square.
He wasn't the tortoise. You are completely misusing that analogy. Do you understand the lesson of that fable at all? Do you think he ran the slow and steady race? It makes no sense.
And yes, he got where he is with luck. And I did not underestimate him. I underestimated, as I said, the stupidity and hatred of the American public.

My takeaway was that that The Hare, who had many, many advantages, got overconfident and had a nap while The Tortoise kept powering on.
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« Reply #1627 on: November 08, 2016, 11:53:59 PM »

Looks like the Tortoise is about to beat the Hare.
Actually, it looks like the hare is beating the tortoise; it looks like this country is stupider than imaginable.

You think he got to where he is with luck, you underestimated him and you clung to statistics that favored the candidate that you wanted to win.

Tortoise won, fair and square.
He wasn't the tortoise. You are completely misusing that analogy. Do you understand the lesson of that fable at all? Do you think he ran the slow and steady race? It makes no sense.
And yes, he got where he is with luck. And I did not underestimate him. I underestimated, as I said, the stupidity and hatred of the American public.

My takeaway was that that The Hare, who had many, many advantages, got overconfident and had a nap while The Tortoise kept powering on.
Well that doesn't apply because Clinton had a 30 year multi-million dollar smear campaign and being a woman against her, while Trump had being the outrage candidate in a year in which the population was looking for one.
Seriously, you can go ahead and admire supposed powers of persuasion, and I will go ahead and be concerned about the fact that people voted an ignorant and incompetent hate-using authoritarian, wanna-be-totalitarian demagogue into the presidency, and never the twain shall meet.
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« Reply #1628 on: November 08, 2016, 11:58:20 PM »

Looks like the Tortoise is about to beat the Hare.
Actually, it looks like the hare is beating the tortoise; it looks like this country is stupider than imaginable.

You think he got to where he is with luck, you underestimated him and you clung to statistics that favored the candidate that you wanted to win.

Tortoise won, fair and square.
He wasn't the tortoise. You are completely misusing that analogy. Do you understand the lesson of that fable at all? Do you think he ran the slow and steady race? It makes no sense.
And yes, he got where he is with luck. And I did not underestimate him. I underestimated, as I said, the stupidity and hatred of the American public.

My takeaway was that that The Hare, who had many, many advantages, got overconfident and had a nap while The Tortoise kept powering on.
Well that doesn't apply because Clinton had a 30 year multi-million dollar smear campaign and being a woman against her, while Trump had being the outrage candidate in a year in which the population was looking for one.
Seriously, you can go ahead and admire supposed powers of persuasion, and I will go ahead and be concerned about the fact that people voted an ignorant and incompetent hate-using authoritarian, wanna-be-totalitarian demagogue into the presidency, and never the twain shall meet.

30 years of political experience and still couldn't prove to the American people that she was better qualified to run the country than the host of Celebrity Apprentice. I'd say we dodged a bullet with that one.
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« Reply #1629 on: November 09, 2016, 12:11:06 AM »

Trump Pence won! Great job! Cant wait until January 20th!
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« Reply #1630 on: November 09, 2016, 12:14:46 AM »

Trump Pence won! Great job! Cant wait until January 20th!

Make America Great Again!
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« Reply #1631 on: November 09, 2016, 12:29:30 AM »

We sure live in "interesting times."
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« Reply #1632 on: November 09, 2016, 03:52:03 AM »

Looks like the Tortoise is about to beat the Hare.
Actually, it looks like the hare is beating the tortoise; it looks like this country is stupider than imaginable.

You think he got to where he is with luck, you underestimated him and you clung to statistics that favored the candidate that you wanted to win.

Tortoise won, fair and square.
He wasn't the tortoise. You are completely misusing that analogy. Do you understand the lesson of that fable at all? Do you think he ran the slow and steady race? It makes no sense.
And yes, he got where he is with luck. And I did not underestimate him. I underestimated, as I said, the stupidity and hatred of the American public.

My takeaway was that that The Hare, who had many, many advantages, got overconfident and had a nap while The Tortoise kept powering on.
Well that doesn't apply because Clinton had a 30 year multi-million dollar smear campaign and being a woman against her, while Trump had being the outrage candidate in a year in which the population was looking for one.
Seriously, you can go ahead and admire supposed powers of persuasion, and I will go ahead and be concerned about the fact that people voted an ignorant and incompetent hate-using authoritarian, wanna-be-totalitarian demagogue into the presidency, and never the twain shall meet.

30 years of political experience and still couldn't prove to the American people that she was better qualified to run the country than the host of Celebrity Apprentice. I'd say we dodged a bullet with that one.
That doesn't reflect on her; it reflects on the voters. Badly.
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« Reply #1633 on: November 09, 2016, 04:03:37 AM »

Looks like the Tortoise is about to beat the Hare.
Actually, it looks like the hare is beating the tortoise; it looks like this country is stupider than imaginable.

You think he got to where he is with luck, you underestimated him and you clung to statistics that favored the candidate that you wanted to win.

Tortoise won, fair and square.
He wasn't the tortoise. You are completely misusing that analogy. Do you understand the lesson of that fable at all? Do you think he ran the slow and steady race? It makes no sense.
And yes, he got where he is with luck. And I did not underestimate him. I underestimated, as I said, the stupidity and hatred of the American public.

My takeaway was that that The Hare, who had many, many advantages, got overconfident and had a nap while The Tortoise kept powering on.
Well that doesn't apply because Clinton had a 30 year multi-million dollar smear campaign and being a woman against her, while Trump had being the outrage candidate in a year in which the population was looking for one.
Seriously, you can go ahead and admire supposed powers of persuasion, and I will go ahead and be concerned about the fact that people voted an ignorant and incompetent hate-using authoritarian, wanna-be-totalitarian demagogue into the presidency, and never the twain shall meet.

30 years of political experience and still couldn't prove to the American people that she was better qualified to run the country than the host of Celebrity Apprentice. I'd say we dodged a bullet with that one.
That doesn't reflect on her; it reflects on the voters. Badly.
Let me ask you this, do you think that Trump is the luckiest man on the planet? Don't you think it might be good if he uses that luck for the betterment of the country.

In regards to the outcome, what's changed? Was the America on November 7th a happy place full of rainbows and sunshine? Did the sun rise on Election Day and millions of women hating sleeper agents awoke and voted for Trump? Everything has a reason for happening, and if you cling to the idea that Trump, a man that you say is a failure at self promotion, only became president due to luck, then you better get ready for his second term.
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« Reply #1634 on: November 09, 2016, 04:23:53 AM »

While it's all well and good to point fingers at "stupid Americans," the fact is that there was a genuine anti-Establishment spirit out there, one that I think has always been out there, that the  left has been unable and, sometimes, unwilling to tap into. People have been kicked to the curb repeatedly and as they watch as financial institutions that caused major economic meltdowns get saved while the gap between rich and poor get bigger, they will vote for the person who is promising change and promising to go against that establishment, not the person who represents it, and the person who tells major corporations in secret that her private policy differs from what she tells the public. Did anybody really think it would do anything other than embolden these people to call them racists, sexists, and morons for voting against that person? That humiliating them further was evidence of the strength of our side? Yes, there are many negative, hateful people out there, and yes, many of them voted for Trump. But we have to look ourselves in the mirror and ask what we have been doing wrong?

As for whether Trump uses his luck for the betterment of the country, it is extremely doubtful. His plan to model his tax rate on Reagan (in fact, a far more extreme version of Reagan) illustrates the kind of economic disasters up ahead. While Reagan cut the top tax rate to 28%, Trump has pledged to lower it to an unprecedented 20%. Under Reagan's administration, personal debt skyrocketed, the country plunged into debt after decades of being the world's creditor, and financial meltdown were common. The extremely wealthy did well and that's why Reagan is so fondly remembered, and that why Trump reveres him because, while he targeted the working poor, his policies illustrate only an interest in serving the country'e elite. He also wants to destroy the EPA, which single handedly saved dead rivers and major environmental degradation and was the only thing standing in the way of further degradation, in an extremely fragile time, environmentally. And while Clinton has an appalling international record, the fact that she does not boast about wanting to commit international war crimes the way Trump does, suggests at least an awareness of the moral implications of that and a potential restraint that Trump does not seem to have. So based on what he has said, no, I don't see things getting better for anyone. If history provides an example, as it occasionally does, it suggests things becoming dramatically worse.
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« Reply #1635 on: November 09, 2016, 06:00:32 AM »

I may as well say it: This catastrophic result is entirely the fault of the Democrats. It is a completely self-inflicted disaster, and now Trump is going to become President.

Fucking Donald Trump.

The Democrats have nobody to blame but themselves for this, for choosing such a horrendously flawed candidate who as the election results proved couldn't run on her record. Yes, the FBI investigated the emails again over a week before the election (which was bollocks, I will agree), but why would they need to investigate if Clinton was flawless and did nothing wrong?

The most sickening part of all this is that they not only chose said horrifically flawed candidate, but they also totally undermined the campaign of the far more electable Bernie Sanders, who I will always maintain would be the President-elect right now if Wasserman-Schultz and those scumbag conservative establishment Democrats didn't openly show their bias for Clinton and contempt for Sanders. Now the consequences are all there to see.

Now Donald Trump is going to be President, and the Republicans retain control of both Houses. Hope the conservative Democrats are proud of themselves, for I genuinely fear what the Trump presidency would look like.

f*** this is bad
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« Reply #1636 on: November 09, 2016, 06:31:07 AM »

Quote
Actually, it looks like the hare is beating the tortoise; it looks like this country is stupider than imaginable.

My take is it's more of a demographic thing.  Clinton got the women and she got the young vote (46 and below) by a lot.  Trump got the middle age and elderly, which does not surprise me.  Almost every 60+ person I know, including mother, aunt, uncle, and office mates were voting for Trump.  In fact they were voting for Trump a long time ago, they never even considered a democratic vote.  For the most part they are not educated and know little of Trump's policies (or Republican policies for that matter).  I think it's more of a "oh this guy has balls, I'm voting for him" thing.  I'm personally terrified of his promises to deregulate, that's the last thing we need.  How many more recession lessons do we need learn before we admit that handing the country over to corporations and wall street is destructive.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 06:32:47 AM by bachelorofbullets » Logged
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« Reply #1637 on: November 09, 2016, 06:37:44 AM »

At the risk of aiming blame at nearly everyone, there's plenty of blame to go around. Trump and his supporters are certainly the appropriate place to start, though.

I put far more blame on the people voting for Trump than Trump himself. I'm also far more scared living in a country alongside people who would vote that way than I am of having the person himself in charge.

Sadly, political junkies (who actually *likes* this stuff as if it's the same as being into sports or something?) and pundits will be spending the next months, years, and decades writing about equally useless theories as to *why* people voted this way. It doesn't really matter, because even the people voting the way they do are often not honest with themselves or others about why they voted that way. People who are probably racist, misogynistic, etc. usually tend to not want to actually admit it about themselves.

Saying it's "stupid" people may be the obvious answer, but I'd argue referencing the uneducated nature of many who voted for his is not inaccurate; the less education you have, the more likely you were to vote for Trump. That's a hard statistic. So yes, a huge part of the story, and one of the only things we actually *can* see, is uneducated people voting against their own (and everybody else's) self interests.

I think people wanting "change" is bull**it, but to the degree that's the case, it's an example of people being 100% lazy about change. It's like deciding you need to lose weight, and making the "bold" choice of eating yellow cake uranium instead of McDonalds.

If even 10 or 25% of the people who voted for Trump were college educated, he would have lost in a landslide.

The media have a big, big part in all of this too. If ever there was a reason to boycott all of the majors (especially the cable outlets, but petty much all of them), now would be a good time. As Patton Oswalt said, they wanted a white knuckle edge-of-your-set story and helped the story stay that way, only with a catastrophic ending.

If it didn't affect all of us as well, I'd almost laugh at the mainstream media (including even Fox News anchors FFS) clearly sh***ing their pants as the results roll in. They helped create it. Pretty much all of them.

It may be yet to be determined how much the gawdawful duo of prominent third party candidates (Stein and Johnson) impacted things, but they certainly didn't help either. One exit poll shows 9% of 18-29 year-olds voted for third party candidates. These are people who helped elect Trump, who will in particular make their lives much more difficult. It may be a different kind of ignorance than what comes from a Trump voter, but it's still ignorance. I won't belabor the third-party issue much, as the same thing applied in 2000 with Nader and nobody gives a f**k about that either. Nobody is going to be held accountable or hold themselves accountable.

If you follow hard statistical websites like "538", this outcome actually isn't terribly surprising compared to how the statistics were looking. This outcome was well within the realm of possibilities. The guy that runs the website, Nate Silver, cautioned idiots like the people at Huffington Post for giving Clinton like a 98.5% percent chance or whatever it was, and tried to explain why that was ridiculous.

This is beyond bizarro in a broad context, in terms of our lifetimes. But the mainstream media continuing to report that this was an outcome "nobody saw coming", that's just ridiculous. And no, I'm not referring to Trump supporters, who like McCain and Romney and Kerry, etc. supporters all were willing to "call it" for their candidate. Rather, there was always a statistically significant change of this happening.

One of the million ironies in all of this is that this is going to end up being like a reverse version of the Kennedy effect. That is, after Kennedy was murdered in 1963, polls supposedly showed that more people than had ever voted for him claimed that they *had* voted for him. I feel strongly this is going to be the case in the years to come regarding 2016, but of course in the opposite direction. Whether he ends the world (slim possibility, but scary when the chances go from 0.0000001% to like 1%) or just does a s***ty "I don't give a f**k if nobody likes what I'm doing" job (much more likely), my guess is that in years to come, more than 50% of the voters who voted in 2016 are going to all of a sudden shrug their shoulders like "Wow, yeah, how did that happen? That was crazy!"

We're already seeing a weird Brexit-ish phenomenon where seemingly the majority of people are all "WTF?" even though half of them voted for it. Like Brexit, it's one of those stunning cases where if we voted again today, the outcome might be different.

Trump, unless he really, truly takes a totally hands-off approach to the job and just wants the fame/infamy of the position, is quite possibly to be a one-termer. The question immediately needs to become (ironically for *both* parties) how they get their s**t together. Unfortunately, it's probably going to mean having to essentially "trick" an increasingly uneducated, ignorant electorate into voting for them.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 06:53:24 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #1638 on: November 09, 2016, 06:45:29 AM »

Quote
Actually, it looks like the hare is beating the tortoise; it looks like this country is stupider than imaginable.

My take is it's more of a demographic thing.  Clinton got the women and she got the young vote (46 and below) by a lot.  Trump got the middle age and elderly, which does not surprise me.  Almost every 60+ person I know, including mother, aunt, uncle, and office mates were voting for Trump.  In fact they were voting for Trump a long time ago, they never even considered a democratic vote.  For the most part they are not educated and know little of Trump's policies (or Republican policies for that matter).  I think it's more of a "oh this guy has balls, I'm voting for him" thing.  I'm personally terrified of his promises to deregulate, that's the last thing we need.  How many more recession lessons do we need learn before we admit that handing the country over to corporations and wall street is destructive.


At the risk of offending elderly folks, I think it's easier to vote in a way that might f**k future generations when you only have a decade or two left on the planet.

Plus, particularly when it comes to rich or upper-middle class old white people, the whole Trump thing impacts them far less (though if the planet is exploded in a flurry of nuclear war, that might impact them still).

I'm male and white and I know I'm f*cked, so I can only imagine how women and non-white folks are feeling.

My girlfriend has been stressed out this week, as she has been forced into being a lead on a bunch of ACA (Affordable Care Act) paperwork for her company's employees. I told her this morning, "Hey, this may be the last time you have to do it!"

I weep (literally) for people that will be the target of a racist leader and administration, for women that will be lucky to not lose all their rights, for the millions of people who will see the wealth gap increase (including a ton of ignorant people who voted for Trump), for the millions of people who will lose their deeply flawed but still useful ACA health insurance, and the list goes on and on.
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« Reply #1639 on: November 09, 2016, 06:58:28 AM »

It's also kind of depressing that even though people seemed surprised and outraged (though it didn't actually *change* anything) about Gore beating Bush in the popular vote in 2000 despite losing the electoral college, it's gone pretty underreported (not surprisingly) that Clinton is currently ahead in the popular vote this year and it looks quite possible if not likely that she'll hold on to win the popular vote.

Do changes need to be made to the system now that two of the last five elections may have ended with the person with *fewer* total votes being elected?
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« Reply #1640 on: November 09, 2016, 08:11:55 AM »

I may as well say it: This catastrophic result is entirely the fault of the Democrats. It is a completely self-inflicted disaster, and now Trump is going to become President.

Fucking Donald Trump.

The Democrats have nobody to blame but themselves for this, for choosing such a horrendously flawed candidate who as the election results proved couldn't run on her record. Yes, the FBI investigated the emails again over a week before the election (which was bollocks, I will agree), but why would they need to investigate if Clinton was flawless and did nothing wrong?

The most sickening part of all this is that they not only chose said horrifically flawed candidate, but they also totally undermined the campaign of the far more electable Bernie Sanders, who I will always maintain would be the President-elect right now if Wasserman-Schultz and those scumbag conservative establishment Democrats didn't openly show their bias for Clinton and contempt for Sanders. Now the consequences are all there to see.

Now Donald Trump is going to be President, and the Republicans retain control of both Houses. Hope the conservative Democrats are proud of themselves, for I genuinely fear what the Trump presidency would look like.

f*** this is bad

100 million percent agreed.
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« Reply #1641 on: November 09, 2016, 08:25:08 AM »

told ya Captain i had a good feeling trump would win and i didnt vote for either
https://youtu.be/0UwTd9Cjx14

Seriously did you really think another clinton would be president LOL
 
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« Reply #1642 on: November 09, 2016, 08:33:09 AM »

I don't think (and we'll obviously never know) Sanders would have won. His lack of scandal baggage would have been balanced out by less name recognition, being considered too far left (I disagree, but that would be the perception), and other personality ticks that shouldn't have been an issue but would have in a race where false equivalency was a regular theme.

I'm not sure anyone, barring perhaps Obama running for a third term, could have pulled this election out from this huge block of ignorant, uneducated voters. And I don't say this in a "the word of the disenfranchised people will not be ignored!" sort of way, I mean it in an "ignorance perhaps had no chance of being overcome" sort of way.

I'm already seeing Michelle Obama's name being thrown around for 2020. It would certainly test the theory of whether people will vote for a woman. If there's still a country left to have an election in 2020.
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« Reply #1643 on: November 09, 2016, 08:55:50 AM »

Maybe if "intellectuals" had focused some more on problems at hand and less on nonsense like the inherent racism of Pet Sounds, things could have gone better. Maybe. But sure, that's a lesson that will never be learned. Never.
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« Reply #1644 on: November 09, 2016, 09:30:50 AM »

I don't think (and we'll obviously never know) Sanders would have won. His lack of scandal baggage would have been balanced out by less name recognition, being considered too far left (I disagree, but that would be the perception), and other personality ticks that shouldn't have been an issue but would have in a race where false equivalency was a regular theme.

I'm not sure anyone, barring perhaps Obama running for a third term, could have pulled this election out from this huge block of ignorant, uneducated voters. And I don't say this in a "the word of the disenfranchised people will not be ignored!" sort of way, I mean it in an "ignorance perhaps had no chance of being overcome" sort of way.

I'm already seeing Michelle Obama's name being thrown around for 2020. It would certainly test the theory of whether people will vote for a woman. If there's still a country left to have an election in 2020.

Yeah.  I can't see Sanders having won.  There would have been way too many middle-of-the-road type people who would have perceived him as being too leftist.  No way. 

 
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« Reply #1645 on: November 09, 2016, 10:09:15 AM »

Maybe if "intellectuals" had focused some more on problems at hand and less on nonsense like the inherent racism of Pet Sounds, things could have gone better. Maybe. But sure, that's a lesson that will never be learned. Never.

Beyond the obvious use of "intellectual" as a pejorative, "intellectual" isn't the same as "educated" or "informed."

But this country has a very odd set of standards for president, for sure. When you want a brain surgeon, everybody want the smartest, most well informed person possible.

But for president, people evidently want the guy who they'd like to have a beer with, or the guy who "tells it like it is" even if that involves assaulting people, making fun of disabled people, insulting everyone and everything, and so on.
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« Reply #1646 on: November 09, 2016, 10:10:34 AM »

I don't normally comment on political stuff, but I'm very, very disappointed in this year's entire election process, from start to finish, from choices to results, and especially the whole tone of the campaign. Running the country and representing a nation's interests on an international stage is a very different thing from running a business or winning a horse race (or a reality tv-show competition).

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« Reply #1647 on: November 09, 2016, 10:41:43 AM »

I'm seeing some truly horrible comments from angry Clinton supports all over the web, blaming the LGBT community and minorities,  along with some sexist and ageist comments. I got accused of being a sexist pig because i didnt vote for clinton. Truly disgusting . The thing that really offended me was last night on msnbc, they were not only taking shots at Bernie, they were making jokes about people upset over the Flint water crises. Very eye opening.  Makes me wonder if this is karma. If so, we the people are the real losers in all this.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 10:43:20 AM by ♩♬ Vegan ♯♫♩ » Logged

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thorgil
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GREAT post, Rab!


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« Reply #1648 on: November 09, 2016, 10:56:25 AM »

Maybe if "intellectuals" had focused some more on problems at hand and less on nonsense like the inherent racism of Pet Sounds, things could have gone better. Maybe. But sure, that's a lesson that will never be learned. Never.

Beyond the obvious use of "intellectual" as a pejorative, "intellectual" isn't the same as "educated" or "informed."

But this country has a very odd set of standards for president, for sure. When you want a brain surgeon, everybody want the smartest, most well informed person possible.

But for president, people evidently want the guy who they'd like to have a beer with, or the guy who "tells it like it is" even if that involves assaulting people, making fun of disabled people, insulting everyone and everything, and so on.
I put "intellectuals" in quotes not as a pejorative, but to signify that I'm talking about a specific kind of them (basically, the self-styled ones imho guilty of many disasters), not generic people of intellect and learning.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 10:57:46 AM by thorgil » Logged

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« Reply #1649 on: November 09, 2016, 11:49:51 AM »

Sadly, political junkies (who actually *likes* this stuff as if it's the same as being into sports or something?) and pundits will be spending the next months, years, and decades writing about equally useless theories as to *why* people voted this way. It doesn't really matter, because even the people voting the way they do are often not honest with themselves or others about why they voted that way. People who are probably racist, misogynistic, etc. usually tend to not want to actually admit it about themselves.


You don't think that people who have seen their standard of life becoming worse and worse by the dominant political system had a reason for voting against the candidate who best represented that system other than the fact that they are racist and misogynistic? After all, don't people who vote for the other team, frequently think of their candidate as a lesser of two evils? Don't you think there are people out there who despise the racist and misogynistic elements of the Trump campaign but nevertheless see him the person who will more positively affect their lives?

Personally, I think that many liberals are now quite out of touch with what's happening in the country and the genuine concerns that people have and when we continue to write-off these concerns as coming from racists and misogynists, it only deepens the hole that they are digging for themselves. Not long ago this was a position occupied by the Republicans, but I'm not sure that they are the only ones in that role now.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 11:51:41 AM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
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