gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680601 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 29, 2024, 10:11:18 AM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 13 14 15 [16] 17 18 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Many Negative Reviews of No Pier Pressure...  (Read 104447 times)
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #375 on: April 16, 2015, 07:09:00 AM »


Not going to open up this can of worms again, but I addressed this question a long time ago -- that people were using the word autotune to identify a more general type of vocal processing they didn't like -- and it seemed to rankle.  But the fact is, if something's bugging people, and they don't get the semantics right the first time, it does not invalidate their opinion.  It just means they didn't express it right - which most non-musicians (e.g. the audience, the people buying the records) are incapable of precisely doing.

So it seems a little disingenuous now that people have been better educated and are more properly labeling the things that they believe are hearing, to call them out for THAT too.  "See?  They don't know what they're talking about!"  Well, by that rubrick, nobody can have an opinion that isn't precisely and clinically stated from the outset.

I know from the past go 'round this isn't going to go over particularly well, and again I haven't heard the album in toto so I'm not making a statement about it per se, but my own, non personal attack-y opinion is that the above post is one of those things that's worded to sound like it's making a sound argument, but doesn't.

No opinion as to Brian's album, other than that I like what I've heard of it, but I personally think people have a right to dig or not dig a piece of work offered to the public, however clearly or not clearly they express those opinions.

Thank you. Well put.

I would add that some folks also do know enough about pitch correction plug-ins, especially how they sound when they hit a released record, that I still believe the suggestion that actual pitch correction software plug-ins were used on “No Pier Pressure” is not an inappropriate suggestion or open question. That’s what’s frustrating me, that such an opinion can be minimized. I haven’t seen anybody claim they can *prove* autotune was used, and nobody can prove it *wasn’t* used. The stretching and rationalizing to, I guess, try to prove it wasn’t used has seemed far more desperate, and has involved a lot more stretching, a lot more parsing of terminology and even Brian’s own interviews (“he said autotune *can* be used; that doesn’t mean it *was* used!).

Does anyone believe some sort of pitch correction is NOT on TWGMTR and the C50 live album (and was especially used in a ham-fisted way at a few early C50 shows?). To me, those projects are strong, and highly circumstantial, evidence of a pattern. When someone knows this pattern, and then hears some of the same artifacts, albeit more subtley, on the VERY NEXT project the same team works on, I don’t understand why there is such a level of incredulity when the mere suggestion is made that that same team is doing the same thing they’ve been doing up to this point.

This is hardly scientific and is completely subjective, but I would again encourage people to listen to Al’s vocals on some tracks on his “Postcard from California” album. There are many tracks (perhaps all of them), where Al’s vocal is not heavily processed, and is pretty dry and upfront. *Nothing* on Brian’s CD sounds like that. A lot of that has to do simply with how Brian likes to record and mix stuff (more dense, more wet, echo/reverb, etc.). But Al’s stuff sounds better sonically, and whatever you think of it, sounds *different.* Al ended up mixing much if not all of this stuff in Pro Tools as well as I recall. He did get the warmth of the analog tape and probably some older outboard gear. Who knows, maybe even he ticked the pitch correction box on a few items here or there. I don’t recall hearing any such anomalies, but as someone who thinks Al’s stuff sounds more organic and dry and who thinks he probably didn’t use autotune, I’m not prepared to say he never used it. In any event, give that stuff a listen again from a sonic point of view. Al’s stuff ain’t perfect either. The drums on “Looking Down the Coast” sound right out of 1989 (which they could be!). But his voice sounds much more pure. Listen to his “California Feelin’” for instance.
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
Wirestone
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6043



View Profile
« Reply #376 on: April 16, 2015, 07:44:22 AM »

"Better sonically," huh?

In other words, you prefer Al's production decisions. That's fine, I guess, but I like my BW records to sound the way BW wants them to.
Logged
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #377 on: April 16, 2015, 08:08:49 AM »

"Better sonically," huh?

In other words, you prefer Al's production decisions. That's fine, I guess, but I like my BW records to sound the way BW wants them to.

I guess it's kind of a complex thing to describe. But I suppose in the end, if I think something is better, it's just an opinion that something is better. But I think a dry, upfront vocal sound with less processing sounds better sonically; it has more of a natural "breath of life" or whatever one wants to call it. To me, sonically that's preferable. It's not any sort of value judgment on the people recording this stuff. *Sometimes*, the closer a vocal on a recording sounds to sitting next to someone singing it, the more sonically pure it can sound. Creative use of effects can be cool too.


Completely seperate from any autotune discussion, I've long said that I'm not always a big fan of Brian's 2000s production/mixing/mastering ethos. Way too wet to my taste more often than not. And it is just taste. I *know* Brian likes to arrange, record, and mix in a rather dense, wet style. I think this worked well earlier in his career. But stylistically and sonically I'm not as big of a fan of how he does it now. It's not a deal breaker or anything, just not my preference. As I've said before, I don't think Brian will ever record something that sounds like Tom Petty's "Highway Companion." I think, on the arrangement side, the bells and whistles (sometimes literally) have become excessive. A random example: I actually think "A Friend Like You" is a solid song. But it's adorned with WAY too much.

I see the pattern in modern day remixes of old BB tracks too. I often wonder if Brian is part of the decision making to add way too much reverb to some of the stereo remixes. Listening to the stereo remix of "Please Let Me Wonder" or "You're So Good To Me", and then going back to Brian's original mono mix shows that huge difference.

But I would definitely say that implicit in liking the sound of an Al record (or anybody else's) is NOT that I think Brian should make his records the way someone else wants them to sound. It goes without saying that he should do it however he wants to. I'm not even saying Brian *could* make his stuff sound different. He makes his music the way it is, and I digest it accordingly.

In the theoretical, I think a raw, dry Brian recording might actually be VERY interesting and tantalizing. A full album of Brian just playing piano and singing new songs. Maybe adorned with some other layers. A modern day "Love You" of sorts perhaps, but with less synths. But I don't expect him to do that.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 08:15:04 AM by HeyJude » Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
The Shift
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Gender: Male
Posts: 7427


Biding time


View Profile
« Reply #378 on: April 16, 2015, 08:30:00 AM »

Got to agree that the tracks on Al's album sound crisper, more natural. Agree it's just a difference in styles, but who here wouldn't love to hear a new BW/AJ album recorded at Red Barn, timber walls resonating, with little if any digital augmentation. I rub my hands at the thought.



Qualifying statement: I love everything these guys do, do not work in the music industry and aspire to a better hifi system.
Logged

“We live in divisive times.”
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #379 on: April 16, 2015, 08:54:36 AM »

That's also why I was frustrated  that a few people were still insistent that it was autotune they were hearing on NPP even after it was pointed out what it actually was (and for a good example of autotune used very poorly, the C50 live album is a sadly perfect example...and another one is Mike's vocals on the Live at Knebworth CD/DVD!)   

Frustrating for me: Those still insistent what it was after you and others took the time to not only explain but give classroom-style, actual examples to help inform and/or educate those who legitimately would not know or who would be interested to know what the actual effect/tool sounds like when applied. I would have also added a deliberate overuse of it to the examples in order to show the robotic quality (T-Pain, Cher) in comparison.

And after putting up the examples, explaining it, etc, as mentioned there are still folks who insist they hear it all over NPP to the point of distraction and lessening the enjoyment of the album.

Listen to Billy's examples, maybe he'll repost them if he can. That's the real-world example of how autotune can sound, minus the obvious T-Pain overuse of it for effect.


Before addressing others: Does NPP overall sound anything like the C50 album? Or any of the other examples where "obvious" autotune or other pitch corrections are audible on more than one note out of a song?

If claiming "autotune" were not used against Brian Wilson or anyone else as a dig, as a criticism, as a loaded weapon of a claim or word in the past, to the point where another band member used it in an interview before even hearing the song...it wouldn't be an issue.

If there are those who are seeking to use the "autotune" claims as a way to knock someone or something down a few pegs as has been done in the past, then be prepared to be challenged. If those who legitimately do not know what autotune is or what it does when it's not on a T-Pain record, musicians like Billy, myself, and a small group of others qualified to speak about and demonstrate it are here and available to clarify and provide examples.

If people happen to get swept up in this who are perhaps hearing something which they do not fully understand what it is or who may think it's autotune but is actually another effect, it's a shame it got to this and apologies where necessary to those specific listeners. If you want to learn or hear more about autotune, ask us here, listen to Billy's examples, etc. The facts are here and readily available. And we like to share info, too.

But at the same time, if someone, somewhere had the f***ed up notion to start pasting the "autotune" claim on top of anything related to Brian Wilson's music as some sort of a trolling, as a way to knock him or anyone around him down a few pegs, to paint incorrect impressions of songs or music in general by suggesting it was "autotuned" and therefore bad or lessened in some way, or for those simply out to get their kicks by doing dumb things online...

...It's not a secret what was done or what's being done in some circles. The facts are there, the attempts to pull this sh*t will be met with direct challenges, and the whole thing will collapse under the weight of the lies and the bullshit that built up this whole "autotune" nonsense.

Was it used on NPP? For those who honestly answered that question and gave their opinions with no bias or (gasp...) agenda, who feel they got swept up in a wave of criticism, I'm sorry. Speaking for myself. Some folks legitimately may think something is one way, but it's something else. See the comment about some NPP vocal passages sounding like they were in a tin can. Autotune doesn't create that effect.

For those using autotune as a negative, as something other than an honest appraisal of the music or the songs, and who continue to do so...try something else. Find something to enjoy in life if Brian Wilson or this album doesn't do it for you. But at least be honest.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Wirestone
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6043



View Profile
« Reply #380 on: April 16, 2015, 09:00:50 AM »

I think what HeyJude is saying here is valid, actually. A lot if it comes down to how people prefer to hear their vocals recorded and mixed. But adding a whole innuendo-charged layer to it is most unpleasant.
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #381 on: April 16, 2015, 09:16:23 AM »

I think what HeyJude is saying here is valid, actually. A lot if it comes down to how people prefer to hear their vocals recorded and mixed. But adding a whole innuendo-charged layer to it is most unpleasant.

Agreed. Fans each have their own likes and dislikes, and like to hear things a certain way. That's what makes us all individuals with personal tastes, obviously!  Smiley  I'm the same way, as each of us are. Some people hate Jeff Lynne's signature snare drum sound, I love it. So there.  Grin

Adding in the innuendo, though, brings all of this stuff to another level. Making claims that have been made since before the whole album came out, and using them even as a very minor whisper campaign or attempt to diminish, which is what "autotune" has become in some circles, i.e. a weapon, a loaded word or claim, is pathetic especially if it's not what is being claimed it is.

Again, consider what fans said was objectionable about hearing the use of autotune prominently on albums like the C50 live discs. Is that what is on this new album? Is there that much of an audible use of autotune or pitch correction to that high of a level that it ruins the effect of the album overall, that the songs and performances themselves aren't able to come through? Is the autotune or pitch correction that noticeable, as it may have been on previous albums like the C50, that it "ruins" this album? Or is it part of that bizarre attempt overall to use autotune as a loaded claim and diminish-distract rather than give it a fair assessment? Just consider.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Lee Marshall
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1639



View Profile WWW
« Reply #382 on: April 16, 2015, 09:44:39 AM »

Maybe they NEEDED it for TWGMTR?  Perhaps there were some contributing who just couldn't project and still hit the target?  Maybe, on the other hand, it just wasn't needed for NPP?  Or maybe it's just some kind of twisted 'kick' to call Brian and all of those closely involved a bunch of liars.  [even though many of those doing so don't know DICK about how to tune up an auto let alone auto-tune.]

At any rate...and this'll sound like an old/AGE old cop-out but it isn't.  That *WE* could be given the chance to hear an album as GREAT as No Pier Pressure is in this the year 2015 and then to sit down for 9 straight days [plus the countdown to delivery time frame] and tear the album to bits, chew it up and spit it out is as close to crazy as I can even begin to imagine.  We're as lucky as sin to have this album and to take the old expression about looking a gift-horse in the mouth and then pretty much turn it into eating the poor ol' horse for dinner is... is ... is . . . . . . . . .

It's a joke.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 09:45:54 AM by Add Some » Logged

"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
Wirestone
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6043



View Profile
« Reply #383 on: April 16, 2015, 10:00:52 AM »

I remember when folks griped -- for years! -- about the "pro tools" on Imagination.

Of course, pro tools is just a digital recording suite, and doesn't necessitate that music sound any particular way. Bob Dylan has recorded multiple, rootsy albums using it.

So the conversation about the technology became a way to argue about things -- Brian being controlled, Brian doing inappropriate music, Brian no longer being able to sing -- that are a little uncomfortable to state outright, but which are easily implied.

We had nearly as much debate about BW's vocals on BWPS, and again on BWRG. By that time, people had graduated to talking about "autotune." But again, it's a stand in for a bunch of other topics. To request that people actually address those topics, rather than rail against a technological specter, seems like a legitimate request.

It's like the "Brian's handlers" talk. Let's imply something dark and ominous, without actually coming out and saying what we mean. Thankfully, that's ebbed a bit as folks like Ray have pointed out that Brian's "people" are essentially his wife and longtime PR person. Nothing too dark there.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 10:11:05 AM by Wirestone » Logged
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #384 on: April 16, 2015, 10:07:47 AM »

Maybe I haven’t read enough of all of these threads, but I still don’t see vast swaths of people amassing a “campaign” against Brian concerning autotune. As with a lot of stuff on this board, it’s been broken down to semantics, on both sides.

My position on this is simple, and I can also see why someone else might find it inflammatory: Yeah, I think some digital pitch correction plug-ins were probably used on this album, and I’m not going to *not* say that just because a small subset of trolls are taking the level-head opinion of others and turning into nasty implications and innuendo.

But I hear some pitch correction on NPP. Not excessive in most spots. It’s not as prevalent as the past few releases. But I think it’s probably there. I have a pretty decent set of ears for this stuff, a moderate amount of familiarity with the role studio work can play in this, and I have played this stuff for folks with more experience with software plug-ins than I do, and they largely agree with what many fans seem to feel. NPP has less futzing in terms of pitch correction, likely in reaction to the criticism of the previous works, but it’s still there. I’ve also weighed the other evidence accordingly. There’s no smoking gun particularly. But there’s a lot of circumstantial evidence, and most of it points in the direction of these guys using it on NPP.

If use of autotune was a criminal offense and NPP went to trial and we only had the evidence that is available right now (e.g. no testimony from the people who worked on it), I’d probably have to say there’s enough reasonable doubt that I’d say “not guilty.” But it would be a case of voting “not guilty” because it can’t be proven, not because I don’t think it’s possible if not more likely than not.

In civil court, if someone sued NPP for autotune, I’d probably say “guilty” (or, rather, civilly liable), because that would amount largely to simply saying that it’s more likely true than not true.

If we truly believe we’re all actually entitled to opinions here, then I’d rather err on the side of letting the autotune accusations fly. We can’t quash discussion of it because a few folks lace its mention with a bunch of implications. If that happens, then a bunch of people who just want to point out they hear it, people who in my opinion would probably be actually correct, would feel kind of minimized or oppressed.

I can’t be the only person here who is capable of understanding that autotune on a Brian Wilson record doesn’t have to be inherently an accusation of something more nefarious.
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #385 on: April 16, 2015, 10:12:38 AM »

I remember when folks griped -- for years! -- about the "pro tools" on Imagination.

Of course, pro tools is just a digital recording suite, and doesn't necessitate that music sound any particular way. Bob Dylan has recorded multiple, rootsy albums using it.

So the conversation about the technology became a way to argue about things -- Brian being controlled, Brian doing inappropriate music, Brian no longer being able to sing -- that are a little uncomfortable to state outright, but which are easily implied.

We had nearly as much debate about BW's vocals on BWPS, and again on BWRG. By that time, people had graduated to talking about "autotune." But again, it's a stand in for a bunch of other topics. To request that people actually address those topics, rather than rail against a technological specter, seems like a legitimate request.

It's like the "Brian's handlers" talk. Let's imply something dark and ominous, without actually coming out and saying what we mean. Thankfully, that's ebbed a bit as folks like Ray have pointed out that Brian's "people" are essentially his wife and longtime PR person. Nothing too dark there.

It can be a stand-in. But I have a little more faith in folks here. Faith that we can talk about stuff analytically without always having the baggage of a bunch of other implications, and faith that those reading such comments can understand that as well and not get too defensive.

It’s a very touchy topic, but the idea that “autotune” debates speak to a larger issue than the semantics of whether someone clicked on a software plug-in is not necessarily all a bad thing.

You posted that old link to the guy who described how he did Brian’s vocals for “Orange Crate Art.” I think *some* fans refuse to even acknowledge what that guy is saying. He’s basically saying Brian’s awesome and he’s genuinely still gifted beyond belief, but his voice needs help in the studio that can’t be fully always fixed by punch-ins and comping takes. That they would use autotune rather than the synthesizer method that guy mentioned makes sense to me. As with any methods, they continue to refine that. I think they did a pretty good job on NPP in that regard.
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
Cam Mott
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4171


View Profile
« Reply #386 on: April 16, 2015, 10:25:50 AM »

I think it might be an over-reach to assign ominous intentions to those who just have an opinion about production values but I apparently haven't seen the offending posts.
Logged

"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #387 on: April 16, 2015, 10:28:50 AM »

I remember when folks griped -- for years! -- about the "pro tools" on Imagination.

Of course, pro tools is just a digital recording suite, and doesn't necessitate that music sound any particular way. Bob Dylan has recorded multiple, rootsy albums using it.

So the conversation about the technology became a way to argue about things -- Brian being controlled, Brian doing inappropriate music, Brian no longer being able to sing -- that are a little uncomfortable to state outright, but which are easily implied.

We had nearly as much debate about BW's vocals on BWPS, and again on BWRG. By that time, people had graduated to talking about "autotune." But again, it's a stand in for a bunch of other topics. To request that people actually address those topics, rather than rail against a technological specter, seems like a legitimate request.

It's like the "Brian's handlers" talk. Let's imply something dark and ominous, without actually coming out and saying what we mean. Thankfully, that's ebbed a bit as folks like Ray have pointed out that Brian's "people" are essentially his wife and longtime PR person. Nothing too dark there.


Nailed it. Be prepared for all kinds of denials, charges of "conspiracy theorist!", attempts to spin and distort and double-talk and all the rest...but you just nailed it. That sums it up very well.

Pretty sad state of affairs among the fanbase, isn't it? The basic enjoyment that comes with being a fan replaced by those having some axe to grind (or...horrors...agenda) without having the guts to come right out and say it.

Cheers, Wirestone.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Please delete my account
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 872

Please delete my account


View Profile
« Reply #388 on: April 16, 2015, 10:43:05 AM »

I remember when folks griped -- for years! -- about the "pro tools" on Imagination.

Of course, pro tools is just a digital recording suite, and doesn't necessitate that music sound any particular way. Bob Dylan has recorded multiple, rootsy albums using it.

So the conversation about the technology became a way to argue about things -- Brian being controlled, Brian doing inappropriate music, Brian no longer being able to sing -- that are a little uncomfortable to state outright, but which are easily implied.

We had nearly as much debate about BW's vocals on BWPS, and again on BWRG. By that time, people had graduated to talking about "autotune." But again, it's a stand in for a bunch of other topics. To request that people actually address those topics, rather than rail against a technological specter, seems like a legitimate request.

It's like the "Brian's handlers" talk. Let's imply something dark and ominous, without actually coming out and saying what we mean. Thankfully, that's ebbed a bit as folks like Ray have pointed out that Brian's "people" are essentially his wife and longtime PR person. Nothing too dark there.


Nailed it. Be prepared for all kinds of denials, charges of "conspiracy theorist!", attempts to spin and distort and double-talk and all the rest...but you just nailed it. That sums it up very well.

Pretty sad state of affairs among the fanbase, isn't it? The basic enjoyment that comes with being a fan replaced by those having some axe to grind (or...horrors...agenda) without having the guts to come right out and say it.


Cheers, Wirestone.

No.

With great respect to Clay Wirestone who I normally agree with, I don't get this at all from the majority of criticisms of the new album and its production. I'm slightly disturbed by the intolerant tone taken by guitarfool2002 recently (whose wrath I shall doubtless incur with this post). This questioning of people's honesty is fanning the flames of a argument that really doesn't need to happen. The long and the short of it is that some people like and some do not like the production of NPP. Live and let live.
Logged

Please delete my account
The Cincinnati Kid
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 802



View Profile
« Reply #389 on: April 16, 2015, 11:01:57 AM »

I remember when folks griped -- for years! -- about the "pro tools" on Imagination.

Of course, pro tools is just a digital recording suite, and doesn't necessitate that music sound any particular way. Bob Dylan has recorded multiple, rootsy albums using it.

So the conversation about the technology became a way to argue about things -- Brian being controlled, Brian doing inappropriate music, Brian no longer being able to sing -- that are a little uncomfortable to state outright, but which are easily implied.

We had nearly as much debate about BW's vocals on BWPS, and again on BWRG. By that time, people had graduated to talking about "autotune." But again, it's a stand in for a bunch of other topics. To request that people actually address those topics, rather than rail against a technological specter, seems like a legitimate request.

It's like the "Brian's handlers" talk. Let's imply something dark and ominous, without actually coming out and saying what we mean. Thankfully, that's ebbed a bit as folks like Ray have pointed out that Brian's "people" are essentially his wife and longtime PR person. Nothing too dark there.


Nailed it. Be prepared for all kinds of denials, charges of "conspiracy theorist!", attempts to spin and distort and double-talk and all the rest...but you just nailed it. That sums it up very well.

Pretty sad state of affairs among the fanbase, isn't it? The basic enjoyment that comes with being a fan replaced by those having some axe to grind (or...horrors...agenda) without having the guts to come right out and say it.


Cheers, Wirestone.

No.

With great respect to Clay Wirestone who I normally agree with, I don't get this at all from the majority of criticisms of the new album and its production. I'm slightly disturbed by the intolerant tone taken by guitarfool2002 recently (whose wrath I shall doubtless incur with this post). This questioning of people's honesty is fanning the flames of a argument that really doesn't need to happen. The long and the short of it is that some people like and some do not like the production of NPP. Live and let live.

Completely agree with this.  Now we're suggesting saying Brian used autotune really means he's being controlled?  Even when Brian said he likes autotune?  Get real.  I'm not sure why GF continues to fan the flames either.  Some people hear autotune.  Part of it is people labeling any kind of processing autotune, which is very common.  Before I joined here, I would have assumed the Kacey track was full of autotune, even though I like how it was used.  Doesn't mean it's some sort of conspiracy, it just sounds unnatural is all. 
Logged
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #390 on: April 16, 2015, 11:44:35 AM »

Before I joined here, I would have assumed the Kacey track was full of autotune, even though I like how it was used.  Doesn't mean it's some sort of conspiracy, it just sounds unnatural is all. 

And it *may* in fact have autotune on it. We shouldn’t let sweeping generalizations rule the day. But we also shouldn’t oppress genuine opinion whose reasoning has not been proven inaccurate.

I didn’t follow the whole thread for weeks, but when “Guess You Had to Be There” first got out, a few folks seemed to feel it was a more obvious instance of autotune. Then, we had some folks who proposed reasons why this was not the case. Fair enough. I personally wasn’t convinced. The evidence (including citing other methods/effects that might achieve a similar sound, and references to Brian being meticulous in having Musgraves sing vocal takes) did not indicate to me that the use of some sort of pitch correction plug-in on that song was impossible. I find alternate explanations and ideas truly interesting. I actually tend to inadvertently often be a contrarian; I’m fascinated when things that seem obvious and/or commonly-held beliefs are proven wrong. I just haven’t seen that happen in this particular case, and I understand enough about the technology and the industry and common sense to know from the outset that it will be *very* difficult to prove much of anything. 
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
Nicko1234
Guest
« Reply #391 on: April 16, 2015, 01:34:38 PM »


Completely agree with this.  Now we're suggesting saying Brian used autotune really means he's being controlled?  Even when Brian said he likes autotune?  Get real.  I'm not sure why GF continues to fan the flames either.  Some people hear autotune.  Part of it is people labeling any kind of processing autotune, which is very common.  Before I joined here, I would have assumed the Kacey track was full of autotune, even though I like how it was used.  Doesn't mean it's some sort of conspiracy, it just sounds unnatural is all. 

This.
Logged
Nicko1234
Guest
« Reply #392 on: April 16, 2015, 02:00:10 PM »


Agreed. Fans each have their own likes and dislikes, and like to hear things a certain way. That's what makes us all individuals with personal tastes, obviously!  Smiley  I'm the same way, as each of us are. Some people hate Jeff Lynne's signature snare drum sound, I love it. So there.  Grin

Adding in the innuendo, though, brings all of this stuff to another level. Making claims that have been made since before the whole album came out, and using them even as a very minor whisper campaign or attempt to diminish, which is what "autotune" has become in some circles, i.e. a weapon, a loaded word or claim, is pathetic especially if it's not what is being claimed it is.

Again, consider what fans said was objectionable about hearing the use of autotune prominently on albums like the C50 live discs. Is that what is on this new album? Is there that much of an audible use of autotune or pitch correction to that high of a level that it ruins the effect of the album overall, that the songs and performances themselves aren't able to come through? Is the autotune or pitch correction that noticeable, as it may have been on previous albums like the C50, that it "ruins" this album? Or is it part of that bizarre attempt overall to use autotune as a loaded claim and diminish-distract rather than give it a fair assessment? Just consider.

Well, the OP asked at the start of the thread why there have been some bad reviews...

And yes, there is no question that for several reviewers that how the vocals sound is a big problem for them. These reviews (the ones talking about autotune or pitch correction) come from all over the globe and all manner of publications.  I`m not saying that they are right or that people should agree with them, but it obviously is a legitimate area of discussion.

It all comes down to differences of opinion basically. Just because one person doesn`t hear any issue with the vocals certainly doesn`t mean that it can`t be a big problem for other listeners...
Logged
Cam Mott
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4171


View Profile
« Reply #393 on: April 16, 2015, 03:28:46 PM »

Hopefully some unimpeachable source will come forward and put the board out of its misery over if there is or isn't pitch correction.  Is that a correct use of unimpeachable? You know what I mean.
Logged

"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
b00ts
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 665


Greldont


View Profile WWW
« Reply #394 on: April 16, 2015, 04:14:31 PM »

I remember when folks griped -- for years! -- about the "pro tools" on Imagination.

Of course, pro tools is just a digital recording suite, and doesn't necessitate that music sound any particular way. Bob Dylan has recorded multiple, rootsy albums using it.

So the conversation about the technology became a way to argue about things -- Brian being controlled, Brian doing inappropriate music, Brian no longer being able to sing -- that are a little uncomfortable to state outright, but which are easily implied.

We had nearly as much debate about BW's vocals on BWPS, and again on BWRG. By that time, people had graduated to talking about "autotune." But again, it's a stand in for a bunch of other topics. To request that people actually address those topics, rather than rail against a technological specter, seems like a legitimate request.

It's like the "Brian's handlers" talk. Let's imply something dark and ominous, without actually coming out and saying what we mean. Thankfully, that's ebbed a bit as folks like Ray have pointed out that Brian's "people" are essentially his wife and longtime PR person. Nothing too dark there.


Nailed it. Be prepared for all kinds of denials, charges of "conspiracy theorist!", attempts to spin and distort and double-talk and all the rest...but you just nailed it. That sums it up very well.

Pretty sad state of affairs among the fanbase, isn't it? The basic enjoyment that comes with being a fan replaced by those having some axe to grind (or...horrors...agenda) without having the guts to come right out and say it.


Cheers, Wirestone.

No.

With great respect to Clay Wirestone who I normally agree with, I don't get this at all from the majority of criticisms of the new album and its production. I'm slightly disturbed by the intolerant tone taken by guitarfool2002 recently (whose wrath I shall doubtless incur with this post). This questioning of people's honesty is fanning the flames of a argument that really doesn't need to happen. The long and the short of it is that some people like and some do not like the production of NPP. Live and let live.
You said this better than I ever could have. Wirestone and Guitarfool are ascribing motivations to posters whose opinions about No Pier Pressure don't line up with their own. It's like a McCarthy communist witch-hunt.

It's as though anybody who says anything negative about NPP has to a) apologize in advance with the "it's only my opinion" disclaimer and b) go into minute technical detail to explain their opinion on the album. If said poster only has a few posts to their name, they are part of the anti-Brian cabal.

This is all becoming very tiresome... Maybe I'm just Gettin' In Over My Head...



Logged

- B00ts
18thofMay
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1463


Goin to the beach


View Profile
« Reply #395 on: April 16, 2015, 04:45:24 PM »

I remember when folks griped -- for years! -- about the "pro tools" on Imagination.

Of course, pro tools is just a digital recording suite, and doesn't necessitate that music sound any particular way. Bob Dylan has recorded multiple, rootsy albums using it.

So the conversation about the technology became a way to argue about things -- Brian being controlled, Brian doing inappropriate music, Brian no longer being able to sing -- that are a little uncomfortable to state outright, but which are easily implied.

We had nearly as much debate about BW's vocals on BWPS, and again on BWRG. By that time, people had graduated to talking about "autotune." But again, it's a stand in for a bunch of other topics. To request that people actually address those topics, rather than rail against a technological specter, seems like a legitimate request.

It's like the "Brian's handlers" talk. Let's imply something dark and ominous, without actually coming out and saying what we mean. Thankfully, that's ebbed a bit as folks like Ray have pointed out that Brian's "people" are essentially his wife and longtime PR person. Nothing too dark there.


Nailed it. Be prepared for all kinds of denials, charges of "conspiracy theorist!", attempts to spin and distort and double-talk and all the rest...but you just nailed it. That sums it up very well.

Pretty sad state of affairs among the fanbase, isn't it? The basic enjoyment that comes with being a fan replaced by those having some axe to grind (or...horrors...agenda) without having the guts to come right out and say it.


Cheers, Wirestone.

No.

With great respect to Clay Wirestone who I normally agree with, I don't get this at all from the majority of criticisms of the new album and its production. I'm slightly disturbed by the intolerant tone taken by guitarfool2002 recently (whose wrath I shall doubtless incur with this post). This questioning of people's honesty is fanning the flames of a argument that really doesn't need to happen. The long and the short of it is that some people like and some do not like the production of NPP. Live and let live.
Some people never even gave themselves an opportunity to "like" the album. There were far to many pre conceived perceptions and or fears that hindered new perceptions of the album. As discussed many , many times these perceptions have manifested into a great deal of ill-informed perceptions of Brian and his work.
Logged

It’s like he hired a fashion consultant and told her to make him look “punchable.”
Some Guy, 2012
"Donald Trump makes Mike Love look like an asshole"
Me ,2015.
donald
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2485



View Profile
« Reply #396 on: April 16, 2015, 05:25:08 PM »

Just listen to the album for awhile.  that is my advice.   If you are open minded the album will grow on you or not as other BB records have.   Gems and Clinkers.    And furthermore I don't give a crap about auto tune or not, but in general, I do like a more "natural" sounding record rather than an "overproduced" one.  but; would one consider a Spector sounding record overproduced?    I think auto tune and such are a matter of taste rather than a bad thing in itself.   The final product is either aesthetically pleasing or not.   
Logged
Wirestone
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6043



View Profile
« Reply #397 on: April 16, 2015, 05:37:07 PM »

Wirestone and Guitarfool are ascribing motivations to posters whose opinions about No Pier Pressure don't line up with their own. It's like a McCarthy communist witch-hunt.

Yes, it's precisely like that.

And while you ponder ways to get off the blacklist (possibly by posting under an assumed name -- a lot of folks seem be trying that these days), go listen to the vocals-only version of "Add Some Music" on Hawthorne, CA. You'll notice that Mike's multi-tracked lead sounds a lot like Kacey's vocals on GYHTBT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2SZRDUaFRc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgSU2rnMR_k

Seriously. And ask yourself, if ASM came out last month, would we be having this discussion about Mike's vocals?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 05:38:18 PM by Wirestone » Logged
18thofMay
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1463


Goin to the beach


View Profile
« Reply #398 on: April 16, 2015, 05:47:43 PM »

Wirestone and Guitarfool are ascribing motivations to posters whose opinions about No Pier Pressure don't line up with their own. It's like a McCarthy communist witch-hunt.

Yes, it's precisely like that.

And while you ponder ways to get off the blacklist (possibly by posting under an assumed name -- a lot of folks seem be trying that these days), go listen to the vocals-only version of "Add Some Music" on Hawthorne, CA. You'll notice that Mike's multi-tracked lead sounds a lot like Kacey's vocals on GYHTBT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2SZRDUaFRc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgSU2rnMR_k

Seriously. And ask yourself, if ASM came out last month, would we be having this discussion about Mike's vocals?
It has a Joe Thomas digital footprint all over it!! Bloody autotune......
Logged

It’s like he hired a fashion consultant and told her to make him look “punchable.”
Some Guy, 2012
"Donald Trump makes Mike Love look like an asshole"
Me ,2015.
kookadams
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 656


View Profile WWW
« Reply #399 on: April 16, 2015, 08:28:35 PM »

Its not a bad album but its not great. Its obvious he was coerced into the duets with modern pop artists... I just dont hear any rockNroll on NPP and Brian is a rockNroll artist, he perfected the genre for christ sake! Thats why the BBs music took such a swan dive in the late 70s onward; they had such rockin albums with shut down vol2, all summer alive, summer days, wild honey, 20/20 and love you. The Beach Boys were pop in the sense that pop is short for popular so when a record comes out with their name on it and it sounds like muzak like the light album & keepin the summer alive it drains their substantial/quality factor...to each is own but his/their music needs to be respected for the RIGHT reasons.
Logged
gfx
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 13 14 15 [16] 17 18 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.791 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!