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Author Topic: Many Negative Reviews of No Pier Pressure...  (Read 104423 times)
18thofMay
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« Reply #300 on: April 13, 2015, 09:46:13 PM »

And do you really want me to pick this apart? Seriously stop taking the piss!
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« Reply #301 on: April 13, 2015, 10:20:30 PM »

Okay, calling moderators: could it be the right time for this topic to be locked?  I've unleashed a monster...  Terribly sorry for making everyone squabble.

A legit comment on the music though: One thing I noticed production wise is a noticeable vocal artifact in This Beautiful Day during the "oh's".  Did anyone else pick that up?  I feel whoever mixed it forgot to put on a pause.  That moment where it happens throws the song off in my opinion.  Love the falsetto though.
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« Reply #302 on: April 13, 2015, 10:27:41 PM »

Okay, calling moderators: could it be the right time for this topic to be locked?  I've unleashed a monster...  Terribly sorry for making everyone squabble.

A legit comment on the music though: One thing I noticed production wise is a noticeable vocal artifact in This Beautiful Day during the "oh's".  Did anyone else pick that up?  I feel whoever mixed it forgot to put on a pause.  That moment where it happens throws the song off in my opinion.  Love the falsetto though.
What time is that? I missed it.
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« Reply #303 on: April 13, 2015, 10:33:58 PM »

Okay, calling moderators: could it be the right time for this topic to be locked?  I've unleashed a monster...  Terribly sorry for making everyone squabble.

A legit comment on the music though: One thing I noticed production wise is a noticeable vocal artifact in This Beautiful Day during the "oh's".  Did anyone else pick that up?  I feel whoever mixed it forgot to put on a pause.  That moment where it happens throws the song off in my opinion.  Love the falsetto though.
What time is that? I missed it.
About 1:00 into it I think...
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« Reply #304 on: April 13, 2015, 10:37:03 PM »

Speaking as a moderator: No, I'm not in favor of locking topics. Give everyone a say, address what is being discussed, etc. Open forum.

What I do need to address officially, and it's never something easy to do nor is it pleasant, is offer a reaction and decision to what happened earlier today in this topic. *No one* should be made to feel like they were ganged up on or bullied, and in this case on the page before this one, that's exactly what happened. We got the posts reported, looked at what had happened, and had to weigh the facts and the history. Therefore, after a huddle, it has been agreed to give time outs from the board in response to posts on page 12 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,20337.msg511480.html#msg511480), and as part of a history that's been taking place in recent weeks both on and off the board.

If we want to talk about bullying, people being made to feel like they've been attacked personally especially in repeat situations, if it was asked that it stop and those requests not respected, then it's time to step in. Maybe this isn't in line with what everyone might agree with, or what has happened in the past, but it's what is happening now. This personal sniping taken beyond a certain point, to where board members feel like they've been singled out and attacked, has to end. It's not welcome, it won't be welcome, and it will be dealt with.

No one should be made to feel like they've been singled out or targeted on this board to the extent it had reached.
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18thofMay
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« Reply #305 on: April 13, 2015, 10:37:28 PM »

Not sure my ears can't hear anything untoward. I think I heard one in Last song though.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 10:40:20 PM by 18thofMay » Logged

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« Reply #306 on: April 13, 2015, 10:41:44 PM »

Not sure my ears can't hear anything untoward.
I dont know how else to describe it...  It seems like BW's note changes so fast when the backing vocals come in, that it sounds unnatural...
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« Reply #307 on: April 13, 2015, 10:44:49 PM »

Not sure my ears can't hear anything untoward.
I dont know how else to describe it...  It seems like BW's note changes so fast when the backing vocals come in, that it sounds unnatural...
Its an edit record!..... One vocal take spliced into another, I guess maybe.
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« Reply #308 on: April 14, 2015, 01:29:10 AM »

So which one are you? The spanker or the spankee?

The one watching through the keyhole?  Evil
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 03:42:01 AM by Smilin Ed H » Logged
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« Reply #309 on: April 14, 2015, 01:41:23 AM »

This thread, which started out discussing media reviews on the album, has become sweet insanity...

A couple of points regarding Auto-tune...

People, including moderators, have been discussing its use on Brian`s and The Beach Boys` albums for years. It`s hardly a new thing.

And I posted a link to a review by Andrew Hickey yesterday in which he comments, `Joe Thomas is an “adult contemporary” producer and writer, and so when Brian Wilson collaborates with him, you get something “adult contemporary” — glossy, shiny, with too much processing on the vocals.` If he`d posted that on this board then presumably he would have been dismissed as having an agenda.

Also, any new poster coming to this board should be welcomed and shouldn`t be made to apologize for posting an opinion. If the moderators are going to clamp down on anything then that`s where they should be starting imo.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 01:51:10 AM by Nicko1234 » Logged
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« Reply #310 on: April 14, 2015, 02:03:07 AM »

I mentioned the Tell Me Why having a few melody lines similar to Kokomo. Also (and I don't know why I'm sticking my balls in the meat grinder for saying this) Right Time features a fair bit of Robo Al in the verses. Not that I care as such, Right Time is one of the songs I really like off NPP, but you want examples of 'tuna or other pitch correction.
Which part?

Kinda funny but mostly sad,
Kinda good but moslty bad,
I really miss that thing we had


Looking out to sea,
We'll perfect our chemistry
By and by we'll defy


It's small but it's there. You can easily sing one over the top of the other.
You have to be joking

Very different melodies.
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« Reply #311 on: April 14, 2015, 02:09:36 AM »

It's vocal modification. Not exclusive to just pitch correction but sweetening through the use of digital reverb/manipulation. Have any of you guys ever listened to Sly Stone? That man used  alot  of reverb on vocal tracks.  Brian (or the Great Oz behind the curtain *boogie**boogie*) has made the decision to manipulate his voice in a few ways. Were people bitching about this stuff with Surfs Up? Sunflower? Are we to believe Mike Love's voice automatically adds reverb? Should Brian Record to a mono track and isolate it from the other voices so we know it's authentic?

If you have a decent surround sound system, do yourself a favor and listen to the album on whatever setting your amp allows (I like PLII). The album opens up a little and you can appreciate the components. Brian, Joe, the 'Man on the Grassy Knoll', et. al have made this album and it's (at least) interesting, maybe even enjoyable.

I don't expect the album to please everyone, it's no Framptom Comes Alive.  Wink  But I have a hard time believing the producers are somehow ignorant of the way voices are presented on the album. Everybody does it; McCartney does it, Kanye Does it, even Dolly Parton, and you know she can definitely sing. This is just the state of modern recording.

 

Really do try the surround sound stuff if you haven't already.

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« Reply #312 on: April 14, 2015, 02:17:13 AM »

It's vocal modification. Not exclusive to just pitch correction but sweetening through the use of digital reverb/manipulation. Have any of you guys ever listened to Sly Stone? That man used  alot  of reverb on vocal tracks.  Brian (or the Great Oz behind the curtain *boogie**boogie*) has made the decision to manipulate his voice in a few ways. Were people bitching about this stuff with Surfs Up? Sunflower? Are we to believe Mike Love's voice automatically adds reverb? Should Brian Record to a mono track and isolate it from the other voices so we know it's authentic?

If you have a decent surround sound system, do yourself a favor and listen to the album on whatever setting your amp allows (I like PLII). The album opens up a little and you can appreciate the components. Brian, Joe, the 'Man on the Grassy Knoll', et. al have made this album and it's (at least) interesting, maybe even enjoyable.

I don't expect the album to please everyone, it's no Framptom Comes Alive.  Wink  But I have a hard time believing the producers are somehow ignorant of the way voices are presented on the album. Everybody does it; McCartney does it, Kanye Does it, even Dolly Parton, and you know she can definitely sing. This is just the state of modern recording.

 

Really do try the surround sound stuff if you haven't already.



Absolutely so it is all about how well people think it is being done. I would much rather have a vocal that sounds good and has been modified rather than the alternative.

Certainly a valid subject to be discussed though and how natural the vocals do or don`t sound has certainly been brought up in the reviews numerous times.
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« Reply #313 on: April 14, 2015, 03:23:17 AM »


If we want to talk about bullying, people being made to feel like they've been attacked personally especially in repeat situations, if it was asked that it stop and those requests not respected, then it's time to step in. Maybe this isn't in line with what everyone might agree with, or what has happened in the past, but it's what is happening now. This personal sniping taken beyond a certain point, to where board members feel like they've been singled out and attacked, has to end. It's not welcome, it won't be welcome, and it will be dealt with.

No one should be made to feel like they've been singled out or targeted on this board to the extent it had reached.

Was it where sweetdudejim called me Ted Cruz again?
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« Reply #314 on: April 14, 2015, 03:57:52 AM »

Was it where sweetdudejim called me Ted Cruz again?

I've been thinking you got yourself a personal troll, Cam. Cheesy

BTW, will you run for president? Grin
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« Reply #315 on: April 14, 2015, 05:05:42 AM »


If we want to talk about bullying, people being made to feel like they've been attacked personally especially in repeat situations, if it was asked that it stop and those requests not respected, then it's time to step in. Maybe this isn't in line with what everyone might agree with, or what has happened in the past, but it's what is happening now. This personal sniping taken beyond a certain point, to where board members feel like they've been singled out and attacked, has to end. It's not welcome, it won't be welcome, and it will be dealt with.

No one should be made to feel like they've been singled out or targeted on this board to the extent it had reached.

Was it where sweetdudejim called me Ted Cruz again?

I've been thinking you got yourself a personal troll, Cam. Cheesy

BTW, will you run for president? Grin

I'm very flattered but I'm too busy being adorable on here.
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« Reply #316 on: April 14, 2015, 07:08:15 AM »

This thread, which started out discussing media reviews on the album, has become sweet insanity...

A couple of points regarding Auto-tune...

People, including moderators, have been discussing its use on Brian`s and The Beach Boys` albums for years. It`s hardly a new thing.

And I posted a link to a review by Andrew Hickey yesterday in which he comments, `Joe Thomas is an “adult contemporary” producer and writer, and so when Brian Wilson collaborates with him, you get something “adult contemporary” — glossy, shiny, with too much processing on the vocals.` If he`d posted that on this board then presumably he would have been dismissed as having an agenda.

Also, any new poster coming to this board should be welcomed and shouldn`t be made to apologize for posting an opinion. If the moderators are going to clamp down on anything then that`s where they should be starting imo.

I think processing is the perfect word. Vocal processing is audible on pretty much every vocal track. The a-word has just been used as a catch-all term to describe this processing.
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« Reply #317 on: April 14, 2015, 07:13:05 AM »

This thread, which started out discussing media reviews on the album, has become sweet insanity...

A couple of points regarding Auto-tune...

People, including moderators, have been discussing its use on Brian`s and The Beach Boys` albums for years. It`s hardly a new thing.

And I posted a link to a review by Andrew Hickey yesterday in which he comments, `Joe Thomas is an “adult contemporary” producer and writer, and so when Brian Wilson collaborates with him, you get something “adult contemporary” — glossy, shiny, with too much processing on the vocals.` If he`d posted that on this board then presumably he would have been dismissed as having an agenda.

Also, any new poster coming to this board should be welcomed and shouldn`t be made to apologize for posting an opinion. If the moderators are going to clamp down on anything then that`s where they should be starting imo.

I think processing is the perfect word. Vocal processing is audible on pretty much every vocal track. The a-word has just been used as a catch-all term to describe this processing.

Indeed.
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« Reply #318 on: April 14, 2015, 08:08:16 AM »

This is all so sad. You can't even enjoy the album by the guy. I hope Brian reads this and says"f*** it" and goes back to bed. Then you can argue over a new set of bedroom tapes
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« Reply #319 on: April 14, 2015, 08:42:41 AM »

Look who drives these threads, it's British M&B fanboys like AGD and Nicko1234. They have an agenda and will drag anybody here under the bus who calls them out on it.
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« Reply #320 on: April 14, 2015, 08:46:37 AM »

This thread, which started out discussing media reviews on the album, has become sweet insanity...

A couple of points regarding Auto-tune...

People, including moderators, have been discussing its use on Brian`s and The Beach Boys` albums for years. It`s hardly a new thing.

And I posted a link to a review by Andrew Hickey yesterday in which he comments, `Joe Thomas is an “adult contemporary” producer and writer, and so when Brian Wilson collaborates with him, you get something “adult contemporary” — glossy, shiny, with too much processing on the vocals.` If he`d posted that on this board then presumably he would have been dismissed as having an agenda.

Also, any new poster coming to this board should be welcomed and shouldn`t be made to apologize for posting an opinion. If the moderators are going to clamp down on anything then that`s where they should be starting imo.

I think processing is the perfect word. Vocal processing is audible on pretty much every vocal track. The a-word has just been used as a catch-all term to describe this processing.

Indeed.

Oh no, it doesn't work that way. We don't move the goalposts and change the parameters in the middle of the game.

Let's talk specific to this album, for one. The past is the past.

Many have insisted and argued that there is specifically "autotune" or pitch correction heard very audibly all over this album.

Now it's being nuanced into saying it's instead "vocal processing"? Bullshit.

There is a fundamental and sonic difference between the two that has been pointed out and described ad nauseum on this board by people who know the difference having actually used these things firsthand in recording and mixing.

Vocal processing has been on each and every Beach Boys related album since the first one. It's on everything from a radio broadcast to the most slick produced album. That has been made absolutely clear. Nothing recorded and replayed is put out "dry" with no effects, nothing. period.

The word "autotune" has been specifically used and used often in these discussions, along with pitch correction, often as a critique or as a loaded word, and often when it is simply not audible on what it's being used to describe.

Now it's been changed to vocal processing? All those crying "autotune!" that then began saying "pitch correction!" are now being explained away or attempted to be validated by suggesting they didn't know, but really meant to say "vocal processing"?

Horsefeathers. That isn't going to fly.

Let's say someone takes a bite of a hamburger, makes a disgusted face and says "damn, they used way too much mustard on that burger, I told them not to put mustard on it, I can't eat this." You see the burger yourself, notice there is not a drop of mustard but only some ketchup, and say to them "but there is no mustard on that burger at all, it's ketchup." The person looks at the burger, indeed you are right, there is no mustard on that burger.

Would that person then be able to justify it by saying "well, I didn't mean mustard specifically, I meant to say they used too many condiments on this burger" ?

No, friend, you specifically said they used too much mustard. If you don't know the difference between ketchup and mustard, and aside from any medical malady where one cannot taste food at all, you're just wrong.

The specific claims and charges and accusations were that autotune and pitch correction was or would be all over this album, some even said that before even hearing the whole thing.

There are enough explanations and even audio examples on this board alone to define what autotune and pitch correction does, how it works, and what it can sound like in various forms and uses.

If someone specifically says "autotune/pitch correction" (mustard), it doesn't get nuanced and parsed into "vocal processing" (ketchup) to help hammer that square peg of a claim into a round hole so it seems to fit.

Another example. Nice try.
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« Reply #321 on: April 14, 2015, 08:55:09 AM »

I agree, let's not move the goalposts. Brian said “We can cut and paste things and go in and pitch correct something with the computer if the note is flat. I wish we had that in the 60s! It was awesome.” 
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« Reply #322 on: April 14, 2015, 09:02:00 AM »

I am OH SO completely impressed by ALL of the negative comments made both here and from afar about how short No Pier Pressure is on quality, talent and integrity.  I realize now that my glowing endorsement of the album was based on my simple-minded appreciation of the kind of music and arrangements which caused most of us to be fans of Brian Wilson in particular and the Beach Boys as a collective force way back in the days of 45s and mono albums.

In today's marketplace No Pier Pressure is clearly sub-standard trickery with nary a hint of anything which would give it even a pinch of value in this the 21st century where mp3s pound the ever-loving piss out of wave files and vinyl.

This negativity is impressive to the extreme.  You, of that ilk, have opened my eyes and my ears to the point that I now realize that this 'sound' I had come to love way back in 1963 was really nothing more than a life-long mistake.

I am SO ashamed. LOL

Go piss up a rope.
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« Reply #323 on: April 14, 2015, 09:03:13 AM »

I agree, let's not move the goalposts. Brian said “We can cut and paste things and go in and pitch correct something with the computer if the note is flat. I wish we had that in the 60s! It was awesome.” 

I'll reply as a tip of the cap to your regular debate/discussion style, Cam.   Grin

Did he say "we can", or "we did" go in and pitch correct something if the note is flat?

Did he say "pitch correct something", or "pitch correct vocals", or "pitch correct instrumental tracks"?


"we can" is not "we did", nor is it specific if it does actually mean 'we did' pitch correct something to what was pitch corrected.

Why assume it was vocals and not a bass note or a guitar line that suffered from spotty intonation higher up on the neck? Hell, I've pitch corrected those things before myself. Guitar, bass, pedal steel, etc.

But we'd rather assume it's vocals being described, because that fits, is that it?

Assuming too, of course,  that being able to do something (i.e. 'we can') is now the same thing as actually doing something (i.e. 'we did')

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« Reply #324 on: April 14, 2015, 09:07:10 AM »

1. Brian claims to have used pitch-correcting software. Is such pitch-correcting noticeable? And if so: does it hinder one's listening experience? Some people's answer is yes.

2. There's effects and voice editing that some people find problematic. Not me. When referring to this issue, some people in their ignorance mention autotune.

3. There is an insecurity in many BW fans. And it shows upon every new release. There's an urge to debate whether Brian's responsible for the artistic decisions, his input in the songwriting, if he's being manipulated, and so forth. This insecurity can be questioning or defensive. We've seen examples of both here.

4. I'll repeat what I've already said. His live vocals have been extremely uneven, rarely flawless, many times sub-standard for decades now. As much as his performance may improve off stage and in the studio, it's highly unlikely that vocals of the high quality we hear in NPP are brought to us without some heavy editing/processing and, yes, pitch correcting. Does this notion hinder my listening experience? No. He's just using the means at his disposal to develop his music in the best possible way.
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