Many Negative Reviews of No Pier Pressure...

[Ron]

People are who they are, which is generally a collection of shades of grey.  Nobody is typically all the way one way or the other.

Then they hear the music, or the interviews, or the reviews, and they react to it in a shade of grey.  

When they write about that shade of grey, they get the shade wrong, because hell there's a lot of shades of grey.

Then everybody else reads it, and misinterprets the shade of grey.

Then we react to it in a shade of grey, and when we do, we express the shade wrong as well.

A lot of this is just miscommunication, and misunderstanding, if people are signed up to a Beach Boys message board that tells you how they feel about the Beach Boys.  


- "Zooey's vocals sound insipid"

"Insipid!  How could you? He must be a Nazi!"

"No, no... I meant a little boring.  I actually like the song"

"Boring?  So Brian's cheating on his wife???"

"No, not THAT kind of bore-ing , I just meant that she sounds uninterested in the song"

"Uninterested?  That's her style!  Here's a 10 page dissertation on the singers she's trying to emulate!"

"On page 7 of your dissertation, you claim that Ella ate lunch with Basie often.  No she didn't!  Idiot."

Mods ban one poster for a week for calling the other poster an idiot

"I'm back, the Mods are trying to push an agenda supporting Carnie's new cooking show!"

"Well, I was there when Carnie filmed the first few shows and she insinuated VERY STRONGLY that Brian actually wrote "Runaway Dancer" in 1957."





None of us completely get our point across (did you understand even HALF of what I was trying to say with my post here?) and then the rest of us never completely understand what we're reading.  Since everybody's so passionate about the music it makes for a lot of dumb-ass posts.

[Cam Mott]

Hi all,

I like the fact that Brian consulted his children.  He asked his family and they said their preferences.  Daria did the album cover.  I like the fact that his children won't have confidence problems.  Peter, GF and Scott speak well.  I have yet to buy NPP.  I have heard some of the songs from it.  No Pier Pressure is Brian's gift to his children and to us.  I look forward to listening to NPP.

I like this about it too. Very much.

[Scott]

I'l never get back the 30 minutes I spent reading this thread.  That's my fault; it's my problem.  I should note that I was listening to NPP during this time, and I completely enjoyed it.  Some songs more than others; I'm entitled to like what I like and dislike what I don't.  I agree that Brian's singing is the best I've heard from him in a long time.  Any use of Autotune didn't detract from my enjoyment of the album, though I feel it's brave of Brian to point out that it was used - pretty much all pop albums use it or overuse it as the case may be.

If someone doesn't like some or all of the album, that's their prerogative, their right.  They don't need to justify it, and those of you who want to argue to the death about it come across as insecure in your assessment of the album.  I chuckle when I hear some of you talk about an "agenda".  Just because someone doesn't like the album?  Or poor the poor guy who wondered if BW was playing his piano on Conan took so much grief for a not unreasonable question - even what looked like not-so-veiled threats of punishment from Mods.  (PS Brian played his piano when I toured with him on the 50th).

I've never heard anyone say anything truly malicious about Brian here or anywhere; he is loved and adored.  The perceived slights against Brian are blown way out of proportion here.

Just the other day someone listed Mike's instrument as "skin flute" and no one said a word against that.  Mike gets slandered and trashed on a regular basis and many of you think that is equal to wondering whether Brian played his piano.  I don't find those two examples to be of equal value.  I really feel that some of you are bullies.

And let me say for the record, I don't have a bias - Brian is my hero and I consider myself a Brianista - proudly so.  I just don't need to put everyone else down to justify it.

Scott

Scott-

  Before I get to the meat of my response, I do want to point something out...my issue with the aforementioned debate on whether or not Brian was playing the keyboard stemmed mainly from said poster claiming that Brian wasn't even touching the keyboard, and the inability to acknowledge the visual evidence. I admit I did go on too long with it, but in all honesty I felt I was being punked. In any case, we both dropped it.

As for the rest...I did miss the comment made about Mike's 'instrument', mainly because I haven't been online much over the past month or so  due to health issues...I certainly would've responded had I seen it. That said, I've spent an obscene amount of time here actually defending Mike, as my post history shows. I agree with you that there is no need to tear the 'other side' down in other to boost one's 'chosen side', and have stated as such many times. And to be perfectly frank, the only 'side' I myself am on is the music's, because at the end of the day, that's all I really care about.

Hey Billy - Sorry, I didn't mean to single any one out.  I know you well enough to know that you are a fan of the music, and unbiased when it comes to the band members.  I appreciate that about you.

Scott

[guitarfool2002]

My issue is with the poster who said Joe Thomas should commit suicide a week ago (maybe these people aren't saying anything truly malicious about Brian, but they certainly are about the people Brian chooses to work with). My issue is with the other poster who compared certain Brian fans to suicide bombers last month.

Who on earth posted these two comments?

Officially: It's not important who posted them, but they were both dealt with after the posts were reported. The one post mentioned above was deleted from the board almost immediately, as it should be and as similar comments will be any time someone crosses those lines.

[guitarfool2002]

I'l never get back the 30 minutes I spent reading this thread.  That's my fault; it's my problem.  I should note that I was listening to NPP during this time, and I completely enjoyed it.  Some songs more than others; I'm entitled to like what I like and dislike what I don't.  I agree that Brian's singing is the best I've heard from him in a long time.  Any use of Autotune didn't detract from my enjoyment of the album, though I feel it's brave of Brian to point out that it was used - pretty much all pop albums use it or overuse it as the case may be.

If someone doesn't like some or all of the album, that's their prerogative, their right.  They don't need to justify it, and those of you who want to argue to the death about it come across as insecure in your assessment of the album.  I chuckle when I hear some of you talk about an "agenda".  Just because someone doesn't like the album?  Or poor the poor guy who wondered if BW was playing his piano on Conan took so much grief for a not unreasonable question - even what looked like not-so-veiled threats of punishment from Mods.  (PS Brian played his piano when I toured with him on the 50th).

I've never heard anyone say anything truly malicious about Brian here or anywhere; he is loved and adored.  The perceived slights against Brian are blown way out of proportion here.

Just the other day someone listed Mike's instrument as "skin flute" and no one said a word against that.  Mike gets slandered and trashed on a regular basis and many of you think that is equal to wondering whether Brian played his piano.  I don't find those two examples to be of equal value.  I really feel that some of you are bullies.

And let me say for the record, I don't have a bias - Brian is my hero and I consider myself a Brianista - proudly so.  I just don't need to put everyone else down to justify it.

Scott

Scott-

  Before I get to the meat of my response, I do want to point something out...my issue with the aforementioned debate on whether or not Brian was playing the keyboard stemmed mainly from said poster claiming that Brian wasn't even touching the keyboard, and the inability to acknowledge the visual evidence. I admit I did go on too long with it, but in all honesty I felt I was being punked. In any case, we both dropped it.

As for the rest...I did miss the comment made about Mike's 'instrument', mainly because I haven't been online much over the past month or so  due to health issues...I certainly would've responded had I seen it. That said, I've spent an obscene amount of time here actually defending Mike, as my post history shows. I agree with you that there is no need to tear the 'other side' down in other to boost one's 'chosen side', and have stated as such many times. And to be perfectly frank, the only 'side' I myself am on is the music's, because at the end of the day, that's all I really care about.

Hey Billy - Sorry, I didn't mean to single any one out.  I know you well enough to know that you are a fan of the music, and unbiased when it comes to the band members.  I appreciate that about you.

Scott

Speaking for myself:

I'm happy to see this posted. I was going to post something in support of Billy in a different way than this, because it really didn't sit well to see even a passive suggestion that he was being labeled a "bully".

For the record, and this is pretty common knowledge among the membership, Billy is a genuine asset to this board. He is one of the reasons why it keeps on running year after year. A fair guy, a reasonable guy, and above all a truly great guy whom I'm happy to consider a friend. We talk things out, we sometimes disagree, but above all Billy is a genuinely good person. As there are and have been legitimate cases of "bullying" on the board among members, including through PM's and otherwise which we won't go into publicly, to see this situation somehow lead to Billy being even suggested as a bully was wrong, and I'm glad to see it's being set right.

That's in response to that issue. More to follow.

[Scott]

I'l never get back the 30 minutes I spent reading this thread.  That's my fault; it's my problem.  I should note that I was listening to NPP during this time, and I completely enjoyed it.  Some songs more than others; I'm entitled to like what I like and dislike what I don't.  I agree that Brian's singing is the best I've heard from him in a long time.  Any use of Autotune didn't detract from my enjoyment of the album, though I feel it's brave of Brian to point out that it was used - pretty much all pop albums use it or overuse it as the case may be.

If someone doesn't like some or all of the album, that's their prerogative, their right.  They don't need to justify it, and those of you who want to argue to the death about it come across as insecure in your assessment of the album.  I chuckle when I hear some of you talk about an "agenda".  Just because someone doesn't like the album?  Or poor the poor guy who wondered if BW was playing his piano on Conan took so much grief for a not unreasonable question - even what looked like not-so-veiled threats of punishment from Mods.  (PS Brian played his piano when I toured with him on the 50th).

I've never heard anyone say anything truly malicious about Brian here or anywhere; he is loved and adored.  The perceived slights against Brian are blown way out of proportion here.

Just the other day someone listed Mike's instrument as "skin flute" and no one said a word against that.  Mike gets slandered and trashed on a regular basis and many of you think that is equal to wondering whether Brian played his piano.  I don't find those two examples to be of equal value.  I really feel that some of you are bullies.

And let me say for the record, I don't have a bias - Brian is my hero and I consider myself a Brianista - proudly so.  I just don't need to put everyone else down to justify it.

Scott

Scott-

  Before I get to the meat of my response, I do want to point something out...my issue with the aforementioned debate on whether or not Brian was playing the keyboard stemmed mainly from said poster claiming that Brian wasn't even touching the keyboard, and the inability to acknowledge the visual evidence. I admit I did go on too long with it, but in all honesty I felt I was being punked. In any case, we both dropped it.

As for the rest...I did miss the comment made about Mike's 'instrument', mainly because I haven't been online much over the past month or so  due to health issues...I certainly would've responded had I seen it. That said, I've spent an obscene amount of time here actually defending Mike, as my post history shows. I agree with you that there is no need to tear the 'other side' down in other to boost one's 'chosen side', and have stated as such many times. And to be perfectly frank, the only 'side' I myself am on is the music's, because at the end of the day, that's all I really care about.

Hey Billy - Sorry, I didn't mean to single any one out.  I know you well enough to know that you are a fan of the music, and unbiased when it comes to the band members.  I appreciate that about you.

Scott

Speaking for myself:

I'm happy to see this posted. I was going to post something in support of Billy in a different way than this, because it really didn't sit well to see even a passive suggestion that he was being labeled a "bully".

For the record, and this is pretty common knowledge among the membership, Billy is a genuine asset to this board. He is one of the reasons why it keeps on running year after year. A fair guy, a reasonable guy, and above all a truly great guy whom I'm happy to consider a friend. We talk things out, we sometimes disagree, but above all Billy is a genuinely good person. As there are and have been legitimate cases of "bullying" on the board among members, including through PM's and otherwise which we won't go into publicly, to see this situation somehow lead to Billy being even suggested as a bully was wrong, and I'm glad to see it's being set right.

That's in response to that issue. More to follow.

You are totally right about all that.  I wasn't referring to Billy when I mentioned bullying.

Scott

[Mikie]

I'l never get back the 30 minutes I spent reading this thread.  That's my fault; it's my problem.  I should note that I was listening to NPP during this time, and I completely enjoyed it.  Some songs more than others; I'm entitled to like what I like and dislike what I don't.  I agree that Brian's singing is the best I've heard from him in a long time.  Any use of Autotune didn't detract from my enjoyment of the album, though I feel it's brave of Brian to point out that it was used - pretty much all pop albums use it or overuse it as the case may be.

If someone doesn't like some or all of the album, that's their prerogative, their right.  They don't need to justify it, and those of you who want to argue to the death about it come across as insecure in your assessment of the album.  I chuckle when I hear some of you talk about an "agenda".  Just because someone doesn't like the album?  Or poor the poor guy who wondered if BW was playing his piano on Conan took so much grief for a not unreasonable question - even what looked like not-so-veiled threats of punishment from Mods.  (PS Brian played his piano when I toured with him on the 50th).

I've never heard anyone say anything truly malicious about Brian here or anywhere; he is loved and adored.  The perceived slights against Brian are blown way out of proportion here.

Just the other day someone listed Mike's instrument as "skin flute" and no one said a word against that.  Mike gets slandered and trashed on a regular basis and many of you think that is equal to wondering whether Brian played his piano.  I don't find those two examples to be of equal value.  I really feel that some of you are bullies.

And let me say for the record, I don't have a bias - Brian is my hero and I consider myself a Brianista - proudly so.  I just don't need to put everyone else down to justify it.

Scott

Scott-

  Before I get to the meat of my response, I do want to point something out...my issue with the aforementioned debate on whether or not Brian was playing the keyboard stemmed mainly from said poster claiming that Brian wasn't even touching the keyboard, and the inability to acknowledge the visual evidence. I admit I did go on too long with it, but in all honesty I felt I was being punked. In any case, we both dropped it.

As for the rest...I did miss the comment made about Mike's 'instrument', mainly because I haven't been online much over the past month or so  due to health issues...I certainly would've responded had I seen it. That said, I've spent an obscene amount of time here actually defending Mike, as my post history shows. I agree with you that there is no need to tear the 'other side' down in other to boost one's 'chosen side', and have stated as such many times. And to be perfectly frank, the only 'side' I myself am on is the music's, because at the end of the day, that's all I really care about.

Hey Billy - Sorry, I didn't mean to single any one out.  I know you well enough to know that you are a fan of the music, and unbiased when it comes to the band members.  I appreciate that about you.

Scott

We are ALL fans of the music, Scott. Let there be no doubt about that. We're very passionate about it. ALL of us posting here are big fans of Brian and The Beach Boys.

[Ron]

Scott, tell Mike we love him, by the way!  I hope he doesn't have the impression nobody here gets it. 

[Autotune]

This thread confirms that it's ok to pass judgement founded or not on Mike Love as a person and his work, while it's wrong to pass judgement (founded or not) on Brian's vocal processing or songwriting.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Some moronic internet joke about the skin flute is nowhere near as bullying, mean-spirited, and MALICIOUS as "Cousin Mike" claiming in interviews that BW is now controlled by prescription drugs instead of street drugs. I'm sure you guys have a good defense for that and will be listening to NPP while mounting it! Unlike say, Mike and Cam.

But lets not pretend it's "all about the music" with that level of nastiness on top of all the legal threats and bad blood. This is an incredibly dysfunctional family that knows all about agendas and bullying.

That it's reflected in the fandom shouldn't be surprising. Claiming the sneering and demeaning of Wilson doesn't exist while simultaneously moaning about the mocking of the Lovester seems like a serious case of tunnel vision. I suppose that's probably a given considering which payroll is involved, but the bile exists in both directions! Rab listed a few, do we really need to cut and paste all this gibberish to prove the point or will that be explained away with more hollow talk about it being alllll about the musssiiiic, man?

Speaking personally, I'm agin the sneering against and demeaning of any given band member. Remember, these are people like you and I (albeit considerably better off): they have feelings too.

[Andrew G. Doe]

We are ALL fans of the music, Scott. Let there be no doubt about that. We're very passionate about it. ALL of us posting here are big fans of Brian and The Beach Boys.

I'd have to question that.

[Mikie]

OK, let's single out who isn't a big fan and give them a public admonishment and hanging. Right here!

[Cyncie]

Actually I want to common on one thing here. It's all well and nice that 'Brian shares his heart and soul' and that 'there's a lot of love in there', but to some of us music IS complex and/or clever chord changes, it IS production, it IS certain instrumentation, it IS complexity in arrangements - it IS what makes the music good to some of us. To me NPP fails on a lot of these points. That doesn't mean I do not respect and adore Brian Wilson, it just means I don't think NPP has the ingredients to what makes a great, or even a good album.

Well, sure. The technical proficiency of any work can be criticized objectively. Which is why I said there's no problem with being unable to relate to it, musically. But, a lot of people, it seems, are just jumping on a bandwagon here  to malign Brian's intent (boo audio processing, cash grab, attempt at relevancy, pushed into by the "wife and managers," hate Joe Thomas, etc etc). To me, that goes beyond discussion of the work's merits.

Brian recorded an album. He seemed to enjoy it. He shared it with us. We can, individually, like or dislike it. And that's really all. I don't get to tell Brian 2015 how to record like Brian 2015. I get to listen to the result and decide if I like it, but I also realize that my opinion is just my own. It isn't necessary to "convert" anyone to it. And, I  try to appreciate Brian's effort, regardless.

[guitarfool2002]

Again, speaking for and as myself:

Obviously a lot has happened in this thread since yesterday. What I'd like to reply to if not challenge directly are some of the follow-ups that seem to be referencing some of what I had written. In some cases, the replies are going directly against or opposite to what I actually wrote, suggesting things that are simply not there or that specifically were not written. I'm all for discussion and debate but let's keep the challenges relevant to what was actually said.

Nowhere at all did I in those posts call out "negative reviews" or suggest any problems with people simply not liking this new album or any other album. People like it, they don't like it, that's all part of the deal and it's perfectly fine.

My issues are where there are cases of criticisms being thrown at this or any other project that have no basis in fact, that are concerning peripheral issues that ultimately have nothing to do with the music, or those that ultimately are coming from those who are questioning or even directly critiquing the album who have not heard it.

See my earlier post for specifics. The cel phone video that was supposedly autotuned, the still frames of the movie showing the wrong car, the whole kit and kaboodle...just ridiculously banal little points which were used to criticize these and other projects before anyone had experienced them.

Is that being "all about the music"? Is that people who love the music giving it at least a fair shot before finding something to knock it down?

When there was a multi-page discussion about Brian playing or not playing the piano on Conan's show last week, where were the suggestions that this non-issue had nothing to do with the music itself? Was it a good performance? Did people like it? Or did they not like it, and why? No...instead, it became Brian wasn't playing the piano. Now take that as a subjective or objective look at the video itself. Brian played the piano, fact, end of story. Those who watched and posted video of it proved it, right?

So in that case, a claim was made and actual video proof was posted to back up that claim. Simple as that. Yet it kept on and on...a similar thing happened a day or so before that, where some of the songwriting got called into question regarding recycling and referencing. Some facts were laid out, it didn't matter.

The whole notion of that felt like the argument was more important than getting to what was the truth of those situations. For some, that's important. Maybe some don't like to see false impressions being promoted as the way things are because it detracts from others enjoyment of the music.

So is it really "all about the music" if discussions about playing piano, how Brian gets up from a chair, the mysterious autotune, ghost-writing interviews, etc are made the focus of the discussion?

That interview - the one that was pretty in depth and in my opinion pretty revealing too...how about that case? There were almost immediate follow ups that focused on the notion that the words did not come from Brian, that they were doctored, edited, punched up by a ghost writer to make for better copy. Then the discussion turns to that instead of what was actually said.

Who was there in that case to say "it's all about the music"? Fans reading are supposed to do what exactly, sit back silent as people here not only insist Brian wouldn't have said those words because he's a "bad interview" from past examples, but to also have the guts to post with nary a sense of humor what the interview *should* have been printed based on what Brian actually said.

So the words and the messages of that interview itself became meaningless, to be instead replaced by a charge that Brian didn't say them and they were punched up by a ghost writer. Then we argue and have to defend that instead of taking in what the piece actually said...which was a pretty damn good interview.

That's what we want? That's keeping it "all about the music"? No, it's distract, divert, denigrate, and by the time it's done the whole point has been filibustered out of the common discussion.

Is that similar to what has happened in other situations here, specifically some others related to the projects from Brian Wilson in 2014-15 and beyond? Some posters think so and called it as such.

The focus of my earlier 5,000 word post (cheers...) was on these examples. Right out of the gate I said I would not be filibustered into discussions surrounding "but they do it too..." kind of peripherals, yet that's EXACTLY what some of the replies so far have been.

I also did not at any time say these were issues with negative reviews or reviewers. Like it or don't like it, whatever floats your boat. But the issue is judging it on an "it's all about the music" level as some are saying we all should be operating on. Bringing up autotune that to this date no one has found a specific intrusive or distracting use of that we could all check out for ourselves, bringing up playing or not playing a piano, saying a chord progression or melody is recycling Kokomo...are any of those critiques or observations based on fact? That's not even addressing those who haven't played the whole record...if it's all about enjoying the music, ENJOY IT FIRST or at least experience it on your own before bringing in questions about autotune and making comments about the production and otherwise. My God, that's common sense, isn't it?

Speaking of the album...what happened to those who were saying it was "synth heavy" or loaded with synthesizers, or similar suggestions about synth sounds on this new album? Apart from Runaway Dancer which used synths because it is such a genre-specific song...

Where are the synths? As I pointed out in my review and other posts, the overwhelming majority of instrumental sounds are real instruments played by real musicians. In no way is this record "synth heavy", much the same as this record is in no way loaded up with autotune and pitch correction to where it is an obvious distraction. If those who said it was or would be "synth heavy" can find examples, like those who said the pitch correction was all over this record, can you give at least a few examples so we can try to hear where you're coming from and judge for ourselves?

Again, how is it part of "it's all about the music" to read comments before and after the album's release saying it was heavy with synths when that is blatantly false information that can be heard by simply listing to the music itself? Should we let that slide too? All opinion, all good, right? Not if it's blatantly false and giving a false impression of the music itself.

Maybe some more attention should be paid to just the music. More focus on the experience, on the effect of that experience.

- So we can enjoy and digest interviews without having to debate if they were ghost-written.
- So we can enjoy seeing a video of Brian, Al, Blondie, Ricky, and Billy performing live on stage without having to discuss how Brian got up out of a chair.
- So we can enjoy an album without debating falsehoods like "synth heavy" and full of distracting usage of pitch correction.
- So we can enjoy a film without debating whether or not a prop car in a still frame is the right one before the film was even given a final edit.
- So we can enjoy Brian himself coming to this board specifically to answer YOUR questions without having to debate whether or not it was really him answering and whether or not the questions were screened and edited in advance.
- So we can listen, watch, and read on our own without having false impressions and false information affect our perceptions of something before we've had a chance to experience these things on our own terms.

If that's the kind of "it's all about the music" vibe we all want, then maybe some attempts to actually make it that way versus the kind of things above are in order.

[Autotune]

Craig, I think Scott's issue was that there is a double standard here. You rarely react in the same way when other BBs recieve unfair criticism-- unless you believe that most of it is fair, which i don't think you do, then it IS a double standard.

[Mike's Beard]

I also did not at any time say these were issues with negative reviews or reviewers. Like it or don't like it, whatever floats your boat. But the issue is judging it on an "it's all about the music" level as some are saying we all should be operating on. Bringing up autotune that to this date no one has found a specific intrusive or distracting use of that we could all check out for ourselves, bringing up playing or not playing a piano, saying a chord progression or melody is recycling Kokomo...are any of those critiques or observations based on fact? That's not even addressing those who haven't played the whole record...if it's all about enjoying the music, ENJOY IT FIRST or at least experience it on your own before bringing in questions about autotune and making comments about the production and otherwise. My God, that's common sense, isn't it?

Highlighted this because I was one of the people who said that the song had parts of the verse sounding similar to Kokomo (although I never used the term 'recycled'). A simple listen to the two songs proves that it is fact. Nowhere was it implied by me or Rubbersoul that this was a negative observation - just an observation. It's rather telling that a dozen or so people can comment on The Right Time having a few lines with a very similar sounding chorus to that of Lay Down Burden without people getting their noses bent but mention that Tell Me Why has a dash of Kokomo melody in a few bars and watch the hackles come up!

[guitarfool2002]

Craig, I think Scott's issue was that there is a double standard here. You rarely react in the same way when other BBs recieve unfair criticism-- unless you believe that most of it is fair, which i don't think you do, then it IS a double standard.

And this was exactly what I posted to address that issue, and I'd hope those trying to accuse me or anyone of a double standard had read this before making those claims:

I'll take that as a cue to post what I'm about to say, the notion of "trying to knock Brian down a few pegs".  Again, speaking for myself.

Others have been noticing this and calling it out. I'm one of them. No need to post comparisons and counter-examples "oh, well they do it too..." because I'm speaking about this notion alone and will not be sidetracked or filibustered in the process of arguing any straw man points. I think there have been very deliberate and transparent efforts to "knock Brian down a few pegs", and I'd like to cite some of those here along with follow up comments. This seems like the right discussion to do it.

My posts are speaking "about this notion alone", just to further reinforce that point. It's kind of disappointing to see how, in spite of making that very clear from the outset, the conversation shifted into *exactly* what I went out of my way to clarify ahead of time. That's either a case of not reading or not caring about what I wrote, or wanting to push a charge of having a double standard on me and making me take a defensive stance on those points over discussing the points I was bringing up.

So that's the choice, I suppose. I tried to be as clear about staying specific to the points I outlined in my posts, and exactly what I said I wouldn't be sidetracked into is what some replies are trying to sidetrack this into becoming.

Do we want to address, discuss, debate, refute...etc any of the issues I brought up, or try to put me on the defensive and cajole me into defending myself against a charge of applying a double standard? Because the latter is exactly what's being done. Address the points and issues on the table, or put me on the defensive?

[GhostyTMRS]

With all due respect, GF, I think you're taking these criticisms way too seriously. As I mentioned earlier, there are Negative Nellies on every single message board about anything. There's nothing special about Smiley Smile. I've seen far worse things said about other members of bands on other forums. The best anyone can do is say "that's not true, and here's why.." and then let it go. They don't need long screeds about how much they're wrong, because they don't care. It's a no-win situation. Their minds are made up and no matter what you write, it's not going to change anything, and frankly you'll only just drive yourself crazy and the debate will spin wildly out of control. It's not like what's written here is a private conversation. Everybody can read it and make up their own minds.

Believe me, I used to hang out at "Paul Is Dead" message boards and present elaborate timelines and scientific information disproving that Paul was dead. Nobody was ever swayed by what I wrote. Instead, they just accused me of being on McCartney's payroll (I wish!). It's useless to get into these kind of arguments.

[LostArt]

Craig, keep up the good work.  Your posts make sense to me, and I agree 100%.  I don't care if someone else likes or dislikes any album.  In the case of NPP, I know I like it, and that's all that matters to me.  And who else cares if I like it?  No one.  As it should be.  I have learned to ignore the posts of certain posters who constantly set off my B.S. radar.  Perhaps I should take a more active role here, and call out the B.S. when I see it, as you do so well.  But you just saw what happens when some of these people are challenged to defend their claims with facts or examples.  They don't have the time or they change their stories or they try to turn it around.  I can see right through it, and many others here can, as well.  This board has slowly changed over the years.  I'm not sure why there is so much negativity here these days.  But there is a lot of it, and it's growing tiresome.  I don't want to argue about who produced what, who wrote what, how much pitch correction was used, because I don't know.  And only a handful of people do know, and they don't post here much.  Thank goodness we have Ray and Debbie and a couple others who actually do know Brian come by here and give us their thoughts.         

[Wirestone]

The problem is, you have here a dedicated group that has made it their mission, their singular purpose, to paint Brian Wilson in a patently untrue light. It has ranged from suggesting he is manipulated in a multitude of ways, to insinuating that he can't sing, that he can't play his instrument, that he doesn't write his songs, that he is a husk of a man.

These things are seldom stated outright. So someone like Scott can come by and see, sure, there's no one saying obviously horrible things about BW. So what's the problem? The problem is that through keeping up this line of preposterous suggestion, day in and day out, this same group of a half dozen posters manage to actually shape debate on this board to dealing with their nonsensical concern-trolling.

Such fictions used to be accepted. But now folks, including GF (most admirably) are calling them on it. Because we know better. The game is up, and they are losing. Sadly, it's at times like this that they can be the most dangerous.

Watch yourselves, kids.

[guitarfool2002]

With all due respect, GF, I think you're taking these criticisms way too seriously. As I mentioned earlier, there are Negative Nellies on every single message board about anything. There's nothing special about Smiley Smile. I've seen far worse things said about other members of bands on other forums. The best anyone can do is say "that's not true, and here's why.." and then let it go. They don't need long screeds about how much they're wrong, because they don't care. It's a no-win situation. Their minds are made up and no matter what you write, it's not going to change anything, and frankly you'll only just drive yourself crazy and the debate will spin wildly out of control. It's not like what's written here is a private conversation. Everybody can read it and make up their own minds.

Believe me, I used to hang out at "Paul Is Dead" message boards and present elaborate timelines and scientific information disproving that Paul was dead. Nobody was ever swayed by what I wrote. Instead, they just accused me of being on McCartney's payroll (I wish!). It's useless to get into these kind of arguments.

An honest and direct reply to this, as it deserves:

This board can be terrific. It has been at times perhaps the best and most informative music-related forum I've ever seen. It can reach those heights. How many other forums or message boards can boast the number of people who know what they're talking about and can back it up, not to mention actual band members, published writers, musicians, etc. It can be that good again.

There are a lot of really, really good people here in spite of the noise and static sometimes drowning them out. Both in numbers and in volume.

Perhaps if you've invested as much time and effort as I and others have put into this place, into doing things for this place, into contributing to this place, into the whole notion of trying to make this place what it can be when it's firing on all cylinders, then what you wrote above could be taken the wrong way.

There is something special about Smiley Smile, and there always has been. It's in the community, it's in the people who care about and enjoy it, and it's something about having such a place to meet up and hang out that makes it special.

What other Beach Boys forums or media offer this? Why is this place still going while others have either faded away or become shells of what they used to be participation-wise? That's what makes this place different.

I don't like reading how this board isn't anything special. That's false. If there are attempts to denigrate it, to bring the kind of stuff in that makes it no different than a "Paul Is Dead" forum, than I'll respond exactly as I did in this thread.

But don't say this place is no better than one of those Paul-Is-Dead type of forums. That's wrong. People who have been coming here know better.

If it can be made better, if some things that don't serve this board's future are playing out that some think could be called out, then that's what an open forum does.

You've used the term "McCarthyism", GhostyTMRS, to describe part of this forum. Do you care about it or the people here at all? Or is it just another place like any other forum, and that's how it should be? Nothing good, nothing bad, just a place that exists where truth and lies coexist on an equal plane...

I don't agree with that. This board could be great, it has been great, there is a lot that has been done and a lot to be done. If it's time to write it off an throw in the towel, it will be just as mediocre and come to as unceremoniously bad a slow end as other boards related to the Beach Boys have come.

That's why I take it somewhat seriously, and i don't care to see people throwing sh*t at it.

You have a lot to say in challenging me directly in recent months, where were you when all of the other things were going on that did in fact take this place to the depths of those other boards? Do you want this place to fail and wither away, or do you want it to exist for the people who like having a place to hang out?

[guitarfool2002]

Craig, keep up the good work.  Your posts make sense to me, and I agree 100%.  I don't care if someone else likes or dislikes any album.  In the case of NPP, I know I like it, and that's all that matters to me.  And who else cares if I like it?  No one.  As it should be.  I have learned to ignore the posts of certain posters who constantly set off my B.S. radar.  Perhaps I should take a more active role here, and call out the B.S. when I see it, as you do so well.  But you just saw what happens when some of these people are challenged to defend their claims with facts or examples.  They don't have the time or they change their stories or they try to turn it around.  I can see right through it, and many others here can, as well.  This board has slowly changed over the years.  I'm not sure why there is so much negativity here these days.  But there is a lot of it, and it's growing tiresome.  I don't want to argue about who produced what, who wrote what, how much pitch correction was used, because I don't know.  And only a handful of people do know, and they don't post here much.  Thank goodness we have Ray and Debbie and a couple others who actually do know Brian come by here and give us their thoughts.         

The problem is, you have here a dedicated group that has made it their mission, their singular purpose, to paint Brian Wilson in a patently untrue light. It has ranged from suggesting he is manipulated in a multitude of ways, to insinuating that he can't sing, that he can't play his instrument, that he doesn't write his songs, that he is a husk of a man.

These things are seldom stated outright. So someone like Scott can come by and see, sure, there's no one saying outright horrible things about BW. So what's the problem? The problem is that through keeping up this line of preposterous suggestion, day in and day out, this same group of a half dozen posters manage to actually shape debate on this board to dealing with their nonsnsical concern-trolling.

Such nonsense used to be accepted. But now folks, including GF (most admirably) are calling them on it. Because we know better. The game is up, and they are losing. Sadly, it's at times like this that they can be the most dangerous.

Watch yourselves, kids.

Thank you LostArt and Wirestone for adding your voices and thoughts to this discussion. I appreciate very much reading your comments, and agree with what you are saying.

[Mikie]

If someone doesn't like some or all of the album, that's their prerogative, their right.  They don't need to justify it, and those of you who want to argue to the death about it come across as insecure in your assessment of the album.  I chuckle when I hear some of you talk about an "agenda".  Just because someone doesn't like the album?  Any use of Autotune didn't detract from my enjoyment of the album, though I feel it's brave of Brian to point out that it was used - pretty much all pop albums use it or overuse it as the case may be.
I've never heard anyone say anything truly malicious about Brian here or anywhere; he is loved and adored.  The perceived slights against Brian are blown way out of proportion here. And let me say for the record, I don't have a bias - Brian is my hero and I consider myself a Brianista - proudly so.  I just don't need to put everyone else down to justify it.

Scott

You know, it’s funny how Scott laid it out there with these statements that actually echoed the thoughts and posts of mine (and a couple of others) earlier in this thread. And those thoughts failed to be acknowledged until Scott came along and then they were somehow legitimized. The same ones who thanked Scott for coming by with his thoughts ignored what I had to say above about having a right to dislike a few songs on NPP without having to justify it. You still don't get it. There's NO Agenda or “people on a mission” to destroy NPP or Brian. That’s a bunch of crap! What the hell would that gain a poster here (other than a bad rep)? People go out on a limb here to post unpopular thoughts and get ridiculed for it. Then you call B.S. if someone doesn't justify their stance. You call B.S. about Ottotune. You call B.S. to the Joe Thomas naysayers. You call B.S. unless everyone gets on their knees and bows to Brian with only positive thoughts about NPP and everything and everybody else associated with it. And I also don’t see a conspiracy here to “put down Brian one notch on a pedestal”. Just ain’t happenin’ here, ya know? We're all just a bunch of rabid, dedicated, passionate fans and that's it! But there's gotta be an effing conspiracy, right? Oswald acted alone - so much for your conspiracy theory! No shooter was on the grassy knoll or anywhere else except the TSBD building! Shock! But....but.......where's the evidence to support my findings??

Brianista Mike

[ForHerCryingSoul]

Can someone recap everything that has happened since yesterday??  I unfortunately don't have time to read all of these posts, but I am starting to ponder, WHAT HAVE I DONE??
 

[GhostyTMRS]

With all due respect, GF, I think you're taking these criticisms way too seriously. As I mentioned earlier, there are Negative Nellies on every single message board about anything. There's nothing special about Smiley Smile. I've seen far worse things said about other members of bands on other forums. The best anyone can do is say "that's not true, and here's why.." and then let it go. They don't need long screeds about how much they're wrong, because they don't care. It's a no-win situation. Their minds are made up and no matter what you write, it's not going to change anything, and frankly you'll only just drive yourself crazy and the debate will spin wildly out of control. It's not like what's written here is a private conversation. Everybody can read it and make up their own minds.

Believe me, I used to hang out at "Paul Is Dead" message boards and present elaborate timelines and scientific information disproving that Paul was dead. Nobody was ever swayed by what I wrote. Instead, they just accused me of being on McCartney's payroll (I wish!). It's useless to get into these kind of arguments.

An honest and direct reply to this, as it deserves:

This board can be terrific. It has been at times perhaps the best and most informative music-related forum I've ever seen. It can reach those heights. How many other forums or message boards can boast the number of people who know what they're talking about and can back it up, not to mention actual band members, published writers, musicians, etc. It can be that good again.

There are a lot of really, really good people here in spite of the noise and static sometimes drowning them out. Both in numbers and in volume.

Perhaps if you've invested as much time and effort as I and others have put into this place, into doing things for this place, into contributing to this place, into the whole notion of trying to make this place what it can be when it's firing on all cylinders, then what you wrote above could be taken the wrong way.

There is something special about Smiley Smile, and there always has been. It's in the community, it's in the people who care about and enjoy it, and it's something about having such a place to meet up and hang out that makes it special.

What other Beach Boys forums or media offer this? Why is this place still going while others have either faded away or become shells of what they used to be participation-wise? That's what makes this place different.

I don't like reading how this board isn't anything special. That's false. If there are attempts to denigrate it, to bring the kind of stuff in that makes it no different than a "Paul Is Dead" forum, than I'll respond exactly as I did in this thread.

But don't say this place is no better than one of those Paul-Is-Dead type of forums. That's wrong. People who have been coming here know better.

If it can be made better, if some things that don't serve this board's future are playing out that some think could be called out, then that's what an open forum does.

You've used the term "McCarthyism", GhostyTMRS, to describe part of this forum. Do you care about it or the people here at all? Or is it just another place like any other forum, and that's how it should be? Nothing good, nothing bad, just a place that exists where truth and lies coexist on an equal plane...

I don't agree with that. This board could be great, it has been great, there is a lot that has been done and a lot to be done. If it's time to write it off an throw in the towel, it will be just as mediocre and come to as unceremoniously bad a slow end as other boards related to the Beach Boys have come.

That's why I take it somewhat seriously, and i don't care to see people throwing sh*t at it.

You have a lot to say in challenging me directly in recent months, where were you when all of the other things were going on that did in fact take this place to the depths of those other boards? Do you want this place to fail and wither away, or do you want it to exist for the people who like having a place to hang out?

I meant "special" in the sense that you can't expect people here to behave any differently than on any other message board. As long as you've got an open door policy regarding who can join, you're going to see that. Should people be vetted before they're allowed to join? Perhaps answer a Beach Boys quiz or something? Well, it would probably cut down on a lot of what you're upset about.

Yes, "McCarthyism" or "bullying". It seems all too often people are accused of having an agenda or being part of a conspiracy. No, they're just trolls or they're people who just don't like NPP for whatever reason. And we even have some people who are beginning very reasonable reviews of NPP by stating that they don't have an "agenda" but they don't like the album and here's why..and blah blah. It should never have come to that point.    

As to the depths this board has sunk to in the past, I remember some guy freaking out on here and posting Nazi atrocity pictures. I kept my distance for a while after that, and I'm not terribly intestested in every single thread that goes on here, so I'm bound to miss a lot.