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Author Topic: Guess You Had To Be There  (Read 33417 times)
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« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2015, 04:31:23 PM »

Do we know, by any actual source, how much Thomas has had to do with the production/mix of this album?

So we have identified Thomas as the auto tune guy? Really? TWGMTR was executive produced by Mike Love. Produced by Brian Wilson.  I guess Thomas is the guy that steals the tracks in the middle of the night, gets no production credit and auto tunes the vocals? That makes sense!  All while Mike and Brian are in the studio together writing Little Deuce Coupe Part II !  Seriously, Ive read in several recording mags that as guy named Siedleman is touting that he recorded Brian or The Beach Boys. He goes in to great detail about what microphones he is using etc. Whats his story?
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« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2015, 04:32:42 PM »

nice thanks..... now this song HAS autotune..at least on Kacey's voice it does..  LOL
Sorry, my friend, you are completely wrong.  I work at a recording studio here in Nashville.  Kacey, according to reliable sources, said that Brian worked on her vocal for several hours until she got it perfect, and then had her multitrack her voice at least 5 times to get that sound.  Also, according to her, it was just her and Brian in the studio along with an engineer when she laid the track down.  One might conclude that since Kacey doesn't normally multitrack her vocals and Brian was working with her alone, either the engineer in the room forced him to record it that way, or it was his own idea.  We really should be better informed when we make definitive statements such as yours.

So were you there while the song was being mixed? Definitive "this has autotune!" statements may be overboard, but so is "you're completely wrong!"

I for one am finding it odd that all of a sudden autotuneish-sounding stuff is being explained away by "it's multitracked!" Now, let me back up. I'm not saying I find it odd that listeners are making this assertion. I think, and this is JUST A THEORY, that double tracking (or more) a lead vocal could be used to sort of take the edge off that autotune sound.

Double tracking a lead vocal is obviously a very old method. I'm also willing to stipulate to the fact that double tracking can give an autotune-ish effect to a voice, and I will *also* stipulate to the fact that previous uses of autotune can cause listeners to start assuming or waiting to hear it on the next song/album from an artist, and power of suggestion can go a long way.

But, given how WIDESPREAD the use of autotune-type plug-ins are, and the fact that they HAVE been used by some of the same folks working this new album, as well as the fact that some stuff *does* at least *sound* similar to an autotune effect; these things all tell me it's not far fetched to think that perhaps it has been used here and there to some degree. That doesn't preclude the artists from having done a million takes in the studio, nor does it preclude them from singing it as perfectly as they possibly can. It's not uncommon for a perfectly fine singer and a perfectly fine performance to have autotune gobbed all over their voice.

The mixture of better autotune (again, we're using autotune as a generic term for digital pitch correction plug-ins), a lighter hand on the autotune, then double or tripling he voice, and the mixing it, could take the edge off something like the robo voice heard on parts of TWGMTR.

News flash: We're never going to find out how much, if any autotune has been used. Are there a bunch of examples of artists admitting they use autotune?

So I don't think we should assume anything. But the mere accusation or question of whether autotune has been used should not be meant with an indignant tone.

This new tune sounds fine. It's the most "autotune-ish" sounding thing I've heard off the new album so far. Seriously, at this stage not everyone who suggest autotune might have been used are attacking the album, or the artists. It's like when your favorite band or singer does something you don't like on the track. Like when Al sticks a spoken-word intro on something, or when Mike has to namecheck old BB songs when he writes new lyrics, or when Clapton has to use a bright-sounding Strat on some song that needs a Les Paul and a Marshall stack. It doesn't necessarily make me hate the song. It's just a slight momentary "ah man, I could have done without that".

I'm also open to new "non-autotune" theories. Here's one: Young singers, especially *very* young singers, are now growing up hearing a lot of autotune. Maybe it's not insane to wonder if maybe young singers are using inflections and styles that emulate a bit of that autotune sound, and/or emulate the sound that our brains associate with autotune, and then it all starts sounding the same.

I was not at the mix of course. Down here in Nashville we pride ourselves in pristine non altered recordings. Kacey is a killer musician. If she was at the mixes i highly doubt if she would allow even  Brian to auto tune her voice, especially if she spent hours recording it over and over again more than 5 times.  i don't know about previous albums who what when , nor do i care. we will never know. I think that not saying anything at all is not equal to an accusation such as this thrown at a wonderful singer. The accusation is far more damaging than my response. I can think of many hurtful and libelous things someone could write about another person. If someone were called a thief for example saying the person is not does not carry equal weight. But i will agree with you that my choice of words should have been as follows. I would highly doubt that Kacey would have allowed Brian to not only make her sing the lead vocal perfectly five or more times and then stack all of the vocals together, and then auto tune them in the mix. My God at some point don't you think she, her managers or label would have said stop? And once again I cannot imagine Brian having anything to do with it either. Can we please now get back to what a great song and performance these wonderful musicians have given us? Please!

The problem with autotune use these days (in general) is that often times, singers who totally, absolutely don't need it (Al Jardine, for one) have it applied to their voices. Even if the songs are sung note-perfect, or as note-perfect as a human can get.

Some producers apply it for an additional modern "sheen" of some sort. Barf. Unfortunately. So if (and it's a big if, since I haven't even heard the song) it's been used here, and pointed out as such, it's not necessarily an "accusation" that's "thrown at a wonderful singer". It's more of an accusation that would be thrown at a producer, or someone who has chimed into the production process, possibly someone with a mullet, who thinks that this "sheen" is what's needed these days. Someone who Brian may trust, and about a topic which Brian doesn't want to quibble with or even deal with at this point in the game.
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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2015, 04:35:22 PM »

Do we know, by any actual source, how much Thomas has had to do with the production/mix of this album?

So we have identified Thomas as the auto tune guy? Really? TWGMTR was executive produced by Mike Love. Produced by Brian Wilson.  I guess Thomas is the guy that steals the tracks in the middle of the night, gets no production credit and auto tunes the vocals? That makes sense!  All while Mike and Brian are in the studio together writing Little Deuce Coupe Part II !  Seriously, Ive read in several recording mags that as guy named Siedleman is touting that he recorded Brian or The Beach Boys. He goes in to great detail about what microphones he is using etc. Whats his story?

I agree... Why are we assuming that Joe is responsible if it's something we don't like? Brian likes vocal effects? Double-tracking, echo, etc. Why not auto-tune (or whatever this is)? Maybe not everything he does is to the fans' taste.
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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2015, 04:36:25 PM »

Do we know, by any actual source, how much Thomas has had to do with the production/mix of this album?

So we have identified Thomas as the auto tune guy? Really? TWGMTR was executive produced by Mike Love. Produced by Brian Wilson.  I guess Thomas is the guy that steals the tracks in the middle of the night, gets no production credit and auto tunes the vocals? That makes sense!  All while Mike and Brian are in the studio together writing Little Deuce Coupe Part II !  Seriously, Ive read in several recording mags that as guy named Siedleman is touting that he recorded Brian or The Beach Boys. He goes in to great detail about what microphones he is using etc. Whats his story?

Mike Love, as far as I know, is the only member of the Beach Boys to actually ever utter the word "autotune" in an interview. To ever address the existence of autotune on planet Earth, and most certainly the only BB to mention it in relation to BB music. On one hand, I respect that someone in the band mentioned it... despite that, the fact is that I believe the context of when he mentioned it was most likely a lame underhanded dig at finding fault in Brian's new music (in order to downplay its greatness, since it doesn't have Mike Love on it). But I doubt that Mike would have ever objected to the use of autotune on his own vocals, especially if it meant having to do less vocal takes and less time in the oh-so-laborious-for-him studio.
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« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2015, 04:41:20 PM »

Do we know, by any actual source, how much Thomas has had to do with the production/mix of this album?

So we have identified Thomas as the auto tune guy? Really? TWGMTR was executive produced by Mike Love. Produced by Brian Wilson.  I guess Thomas is the guy that steals the tracks in the middle of the night, gets no production credit and auto tunes the vocals? That makes sense!  All while Mike and Brian are in the studio together writing Little Deuce Coupe Part II !  Seriously, Ive read in several recording mags that as guy named Siedleman is touting that he recorded Brian or The Beach Boys. He goes in to great detail about what microphones he is using etc. Whats his story?

I agree... Why are we assuming that Joe is responsible if it's something we don't like? Brian likes vocal effects? Double-tracking, echo, etc. Why not auto-tune (or whatever this is)? Maybe not everything he does is to the fans' taste.


Heroes and Villains!  On this thread unfortunately it seems there always has to be a villain.  Anything good must be tainted.  I freaking love this song, period!
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« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2015, 05:05:43 PM »

Do we know, by any actual source, how much Thomas has had to do with the production/mix of this album?

So we have identified Thomas as the auto tune guy? Really? TWGMTR was executive produced by Mike Love. Produced by Brian Wilson.  I guess Thomas is the guy that steals the tracks in the middle of the night, gets no production credit and auto tunes the vocals? That makes sense!  All while Mike and Brian are in the studio together writing Little Deuce Coupe Part II !  Seriously, Ive read in several recording mags that as guy named Siedleman is touting that he recorded Brian or The Beach Boys. He goes in to great detail about what microphones he is using etc. Whats his story?

That's why I asked. Someone was indirectly claiming Joe was responsible when I'm not sure how much he's actually been in the studio for the making of this album. I'm not at all identifying Joe as the "auto-tune" guy, nor do I think there is much, if any auto-tune on this record (from what I've heard). I hear some effect on Kacey's vocal and whatever it is, I really like it and it fits the song perfectly.
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« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2015, 05:08:47 PM »

It's my impression that Joe was perhaps more involved initially. But as the sessions dragged and Brian stayed in L.A. (Joe is still Chicago-based), BW ended up running overdub and vocal sessions more on his own.
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« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2015, 05:16:53 PM »

Yes and as stated vocal stacking or multi-tracking was used, not auto-tune.
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« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2015, 05:35:02 PM »

What a fantastic song.

Man, every song so far from NPP has blown me away.
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« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2015, 05:36:07 PM »

well I guess we had to be there to know what the effect is on her voice.,, LOL
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« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2015, 05:38:23 PM »

If I was to pick a song so far to be released as a single, its this one.
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« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2015, 05:41:58 PM »

Re: autotune. Some people are just blessed with really good pitch. If there is any pitch correction here it's very minimal, and that goes for Brian too. But to get away from the autotune debate... I'm so grateful that Brian regained his ability to sing "sweetly" again. His tone sounds so clear here, it's amazing. I can't remember the last time he sounded so comfortable and confident on a track. Listen to the way he sings "sharing" on the 2nd chorus. Or the way he comes in on "everything I ever wanted". Or "sippin on a new wine". He sounds so much better than the majority of the stuff he's put out in the past 40 years. His vocal swag is back!! He sounds 20 years younger than he did on Orange Crate Art. THIS is what "old" Brian should sound like. He's back on track guys. BRAVO BRIAN!
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« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2015, 06:19:46 PM »

If I was to pick a song so far to be released as a single, its this one.

Definitely. This song is making me emotional it's that good.
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« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2015, 06:55:51 PM »

I REALLY like the BW sections. Too bad the Musgrave sections just remind me of Hannah Montana/ Taylor Swift /Disney Channel silliness and drag it down. This could have really been nice without Musgrave, and BW did it all himself (maybe there's a version out there?).
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« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2015, 07:05:14 PM »

I'm sick of hearing about autotune in these threads. I'm not surprised others are expressing frustration too, it's not being "indignant" at all to push back at this regular flogging of the autotune subject. Put me at the top of the list, I've had it. When there are specific mentions of autotune not being used and backed up both by engineers who work with it regularly and in some cases some people who know exactly what was or wasn't done, and it's still "up for debate", it gets my blood pressure up. And I don't need that.  Smiley

2+2=4, some things like this either are or they aren't. Simple as that. If it's too difficult to accept others' words not to mention professional opinions on these things, then it's like trying to prove 2+2 does not equal 4. Don Quixote had a better chance with those windmills.

And honestly I think (though I may be wrong) a good number of people here are sick and tired of having "autotune" show up in these threads which does take away from the actual song discussion when people are getting excited about hearing something for the first time.

CenturyDeprived, TimbNash, 18thOfMay and a few others I'm missing...100% right on and I agree with what you're saying, I couldn't agree more. Enjoy the song and share the enjoyment with others, that's the best part of all this. Autotune doesn't amount to jack squat in the big picture of all this, and it distracts and diverts from what many probably come to these threads to do. Just my opinion, not "official" or anything of the sort, but a strong opinion at that.
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« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2015, 07:08:41 PM »

The song and performance itself - Fantastic. Kacey brings her "A Game" to the track. I was curious to hear what a truly talented modern country singer would do with a Brian Wilson original, and this one really hit a home run. No comparisons to Stars&Stripes, as both country music (especially female singers) and the whole music biz has changed since that release. This could be a crossover hit if the cards are played right.
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« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2015, 07:27:50 PM »

Do we know, by any actual source, how much Thomas has had to do with the production/mix of this album?

So we have identified Thomas as the auto tune guy? Really? TWGMTR was executive produced by Mike Love. Produced by Brian Wilson.  I guess Thomas is the guy that steals the tracks in the middle of the night, gets no production credit and auto tunes the vocals? That makes sense!  All while Mike and Brian are in the studio together writing Little Deuce Coupe Part II !  Seriously, Ive read in several recording mags that as guy named Siedleman is touting that he recorded Brian or The Beach Boys. He goes in to great detail about what microphones he is using etc. Whats his story?

It's true we don't know who, if anyone, is specifically instigating the decision nor actually doing the actually engineering work to add autotune to anything.

But whether it's Thomas or someone else, it doesn't require stealing the tracks in the middle of the night. It's all done right there in the studio. It's not a secret trick they whip out. It's all plugged right into the software. Some artists that are less involved (or interested) in production or engineering probably get autotuned and don't even know it. That doesn't apply to Brian. But it's not as if autotune is some separate outsourced effect producers have to farm out for.
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« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2015, 07:31:58 PM »

I was not at the mix of course. Down here in Nashville we pride ourselves in pristine non altered recordings. Kacey is a killer musician. If she was at the mixes i highly doubt if she would allow even  Brian to auto tune her voice, especially if she spent hours recording it over and over again more than 5 times.  i don't know about previous albums who what when , nor do i care. we will never know. I think that not saying anything at all is not equal to an accusation such as this thrown at a wonderful singer. The accusation is far more damaging than my response. I can think of many hurtful and libelous things someone could write about another person. If someone were called a thief for example saying the person is not does not carry equal weight. But i will agree with you that my choice of words should have been as follows. I would highly doubt that Kacey would have allowed Brian to not only make her sing the lead vocal perfectly five or more times and then stack all of the vocals together, and then auto tune them in the mix. My God at some point don't you think she, her managers or label would have said stop? And once again I cannot imagine Brian having anything to do with it either. Can we please now get back to what a great song and performance these wonderful musicians have given us? Please!

I don't know how hands-on she is with production and engineering. Even artists that are very hands-on don't always get into the nitty gritty of production and mixing and engineering. On top of that, this is a BW album. I wouldn't assume she would even be consulted on mixing or engineering or mastering decisions. She signs a waiver/agreement to be on the recording, and she sings.

Just as, I would assume Paul McCartney did not need to approve the final mix and mastering of "A Friend Like You."

I don't know if Musgraves is hands-on, but even if she is, that wouldn't preclude autotune being used on her vocals on this track.

To reiterate, many amazing singers and musicians use autotune, both knowingly and (to some degree) unknowingly. And I would venture to guess autotune is used in Nashville too. It's used everywhere, from major studios to home brew stuff recorded on laptops and iPads.
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« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2015, 07:41:11 PM »

I'm not sure how I feel about this track yet, but I'm still mostly undecided about most of them. I can't help but feel that I'd probably enjoy it more if it was a bit less polished.

Fingers crossed for some of the slower more melancholy tracks.
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« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2015, 07:49:07 PM »

I'm sick of hearing about autotune in these threads. I'm not surprised others are expressing frustration too, it's not being "indignant" at all to push back at this regular flogging of the autotune subject. Put me at the top of the list, I've had it. When there are specific mentions of autotune not being used and backed up both by engineers who work with it regularly and in some cases some people who know exactly what was or wasn't done, and it's still "up for debate", it gets my blood pressure up. And I don't need that.  Smiley

2+2=4, some things like this either are or they aren't. Simple as that. If it's too difficult to accept others' words not to mention professional opinions on these things, then it's like trying to prove 2+2 does not equal 4. Don Quixote had a better chance with those windmills.

And honestly I think (though I may be wrong) a good number of people here are sick and tired of having "autotune" show up in these threads which does take away from the actual song discussion when people are getting excited about hearing something for the first time.

CenturyDeprived, TimbNash, 18thOfMay and a few others I'm missing...100% right on and I agree with what you're saying, I couldn't agree more. Enjoy the song and share the enjoyment with others, that's the best part of all this. Autotune doesn't amount to jack squat in the big picture of all this, and it distracts and diverts from what many probably come to these threads to do. Just my opinion, not "official" or anything of the sort, but a strong opinion at that.

If Brian Wilson had listened to people complaining about his use of modern production technology, we wouldn't have Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations.
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« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2015, 07:57:48 PM »

I'm sick of hearing about autotune in these threads. I'm not surprised others are expressing frustration too, it's not being "indignant" at all to push back at this regular flogging of the autotune subject. Put me at the top of the list, I've had it. When there are specific mentions of autotune not being used and backed up both by engineers who work with it regularly and in some cases some people who know exactly what was or wasn't done, and it's still "up for debate", it gets my blood pressure up. And I don't need that.  Smiley

2+2=4, some things like this either are or they aren't. Simple as that. If it's too difficult to accept others' words not to mention professional opinions on these things, then it's like trying to prove 2+2 does not equal 4. Don Quixote had a better chance with those windmills.

And honestly I think (though I may be wrong) a good number of people here are sick and tired of having "autotune" show up in these threads which does take away from the actual song discussion when people are getting excited about hearing something for the first time.

CenturyDeprived, TimbNash, 18thOfMay and a few others I'm missing...100% right on and I agree with what you're saying, I couldn't agree more. Enjoy the song and share the enjoyment with others, that's the best part of all this. Autotune doesn't amount to jack squat in the big picture of all this, and it distracts and diverts from what many probably come to these threads to do. Just my opinion, not "official" or anything of the sort, but a strong opinion at that.

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« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2015, 08:52:17 PM »

I'm sick of hearing about autotune in these threads. I'm not surprised others are expressing frustration too, it's not being "indignant" at all to push back at this regular flogging of the autotune subject. Put me at the top of the list, I've had it. When there are specific mentions of autotune not being used and backed up both by engineers who work with it regularly and in some cases some people who know exactly what was or wasn't done, and it's still "up for debate", it gets my blood pressure up. And I don't need that.  Smiley

2+2=4, some things like this either are or they aren't. Simple as that. If it's too difficult to accept others' words not to mention professional opinions on these things, then it's like trying to prove 2+2 does not equal 4. Don Quixote had a better chance with those windmills.

And honestly I think (though I may be wrong) a good number of people here are sick and tired of having "autotune" show up in these threads which does take away from the actual song discussion when people are getting excited about hearing something for the first time.

CenturyDeprived, TimbNash, 18thOfMay and a few others I'm missing...100% right on and I agree with what you're saying, I couldn't agree more. Enjoy the song and share the enjoyment with others, that's the best part of all this. Autotune doesn't amount to jack squat in the big picture of all this, and it distracts and diverts from what many probably come to these threads to do. Just my opinion, not "official" or anything of the sort, but a strong opinion at that.

If Brian Wilson had listened to people complaining about his use of modern production technology, we wouldn't have Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations.

Or, one other possibility is that autotune is not equatable to Brian's groundbreaking 60s methods and techniques. Maybe some feel it isn't "just another tool."

In 50 more years, people will still be in awe of Brian's 60s work. They will not feel the same way about autotune. In my opinion of course.
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« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2015, 08:56:33 PM »

Re: autotune. Some people are just blessed with really good pitch. If there is any pitch correction here it's very minimal, and that goes for Brian too.

The autotune debate has shifted though. It's no longer just a crutch for mediocre singers. Excellent singers are subjected to it too, simply because it's so en vogue and because it's just there to use. That's what's particularly frustrating (e.g. "From There to Back Again").
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« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2015, 09:18:21 PM »

Half of this board thinks they're the Sherlock Holmes of autotune. I couldn't give a tuppenny f*** if Brian wants to use modern effects, enhancements or techniques. He's Brian Wilson, I'm not, he knows what he wants his records to sound like. Do these people go to magic shows with the sole intention of figuring out the illusions too? Personally I like to be swept away by the song, it's content and so on. You know, what do the kids call it...er...enjoying it?
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« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2015, 09:29:10 PM »

I'm thinking this album will be a good mix between Love You and Today!

Some good pop songs, some retro-funky songs, and some beautiful ballads.

When NPP comes out, I'm going to start a thread determining what previous BB/BW album we'd  put each song on.
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