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Steve Latshaw
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« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2015, 11:49:24 AM »

<<No it doesn't. Don't lump all Russians together just because RangeRoverA1 doesn't know right from wrong.>>

U.B.... you are absolutely right.  I was wrong to lump all Russians into that comment and I will withdraw it.
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Mikie
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« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2015, 12:03:10 PM »

Damn. Ever since high school, I've loved catfights. 'Bout time we had one on this board!

Who really loves Brian the most?  Prove it!  Ah Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!   Grin

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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2015, 12:21:41 PM »


Take the advice of an "old dude" and buy the damm album RRA1, you'll be glad you did.  Besides a CD sounds better than mp3.

 Cool Guy

I like what I've heard (bought The Right Time on iTunes) so far, so I'm buyin' it.  Maybe it will tide me over till Brian's rock n roll album!!

"Whatever happened to me and you...."
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« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2015, 12:36:23 PM »

agree to disagree
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« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2015, 12:36:34 PM »

2 The Cincinnati Kid: are you gonna tell me that I've been listening and reading everything available here on the board about someone I don't care? where is the logic? And also, Brian's 1st and foremost goal wasn't to make money, he's worked on album to get heard, to make people happy with his music and just because he likes doing it. Is this board q and a not any indication? He cares forefront about music, building vocal stack, arranging, mixing.

How about next time Brian does a q&a, you ask him whether you should illegally download the album?
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« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2015, 12:39:03 PM »

I love Kacey. Love Love Love







Those pants are fake. Joe Thomas obviously took a plain old pair of cotton pants and sprayed them with a semi-gloss acrylic sheen. Very unnatural looking. Don't these people know cotton will never go out of style. Why would a beautiful girl cheapen herself with an outfit like that!

Good one, Paul J B.
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« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2015, 01:09:16 PM »

2 rab2591: so there IS a choice? You can call it relying on honest citizens -- ideally, if the powers that be know about ways of downloading, they should have gotten rid of that choice too. That sort of means they don't mind it.
 I get what you say earlier. But it doesn't necessarily point to Brian being business-savvy, which is what I was talking of before. He cares about selling records and gets sad if they don't sell well for music reasons: if people didn't get the content, it is ahead of time, not enough mainstream etc. It all comes down to that.

I agree, Mikie. Some folks trying to convince they who pay who are the only real fans. But we're all BBs soulmates.

Why do you think laws about music piracy have been put in place in civilized countries? Because record companies DO mind it when people illegally obtain music...just because the government hasn't banned file-sharing websites doesn't at all mean they don't see a problem with stealing. By your logic the government doesn't mind people buying and selling drugs because they haven't banned the use of city streets. Also, say what you want about how Brian is only in it to make beautiful music, but had there not been a market for it (i.e., had most people stolen records back in the day), Murry would NEVER had invested his own time and money into that band....and the band we know and love today wouldn't exist.

Also, not sure about others, but I'm definitely not questioning your love of the music. I'm questioning your ethics when it comes to the buying (or lack thereof) of music from said band.
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« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2015, 01:32:18 PM »

2 The Cincinnati Kid: are you gonna tell me that I've been listening and reading everything available here on the board about someone I don't care? where is the logic? And also, Brian's 1st and foremost goal wasn't to make money, he's worked on album to get heard, to make people happy with his music and just because he likes doing it. Is this board q and a not any indication? He cares forefront about music, building vocal stack, arranging, mixing.

How about next time Brian does a q&a, you ask him whether you should illegally download the album?

Perfect.  That's exactly what I was thinking.  In the mean time, I've given up trying to explain ethics to someone who refuses to understand that stealing Brian's music is a bad thing.
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« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2015, 02:21:15 PM »

If you have means (logistically) to buy the CD, then of course that's what should be done.

I just find it interesting that this topic comes up in a thread that has links to YouTube, which is a place that is FILLED with infringing material that EVERYBODY looks at and listens to. Yes, when Brian's own VEVO channel posts a video with a track from the new album, that's legit.

But technically, just about everything on YouTube that isn't from an official source or someone's home movies is probably copyright infringement that simply hasn't been enforced. I'm sure this debate has been had all over the internet for probably 15 years or more, but at what point is streaming a YouTube video that is not licensed/sanctioned so terribly different from downloading the album?

Is the argument specifically that not buying Brian's CD is being frowned upon, or is it the infringement involved? What if you download a leaked copy of a CD before release date, but then also buy the CD when it comes out? What if you own every Brian/BB music and video release ever put out, and then you stream something on YouTube posted by a random person? Those things are technically infringing as well.

I'm not defending anyone downloading the album illegally, and/or not buying the CD. This is more just food for though.

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« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2015, 02:22:15 PM »

FFS, I've been earning nothing but minimum wage since the end of August and even I saved enough to purchase the album. Just buy the damn thing dude...
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"Because of the attitude of a few mental dinosaurs intent on exploiting our initial success, Brian's huge talent has never been fully appreciated in America and the potential of the group has been stifled.... If the Beatles had suffered this kind of misrepresentation, they would have never got past singing 'Please Please Me' and 'I Wanna Hold Your Hand' and leaping around in Beatle suits."
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« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2015, 02:27:22 PM »

Lemme tell you sumpthin. A little facto-mundo here.

There is NO ONE (ZERO) people on this board that haven't "stolen" Brian's music before. Not one person.

And I guarantee you that this new album will be available on multiple web sites for free before it's even released. Just like all the previous Brian/Beach Boys releases (i.e. MIC) in the past few years. And there will be alternate versions of the released tracks available for download for free.

Not condoning illegal downloading here at all - just tellin' it like it is.  I'll listen to the whole thing before April 7. But I'll still buy the CD with the boner tracks at Target, then probably look for the other versions later. 'Cause I'm a big fan and collector, ya know.
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2015, 02:36:32 PM »

Lemme tell you sumpthin. A little facto-mundo here.

There is NO ONE (ZERO) people on this board that haven't "stolen" Brian's music before. Not one person.

And I guarantee you that this new album will be available on multiple web sites for free before it's even released. Just like all the previous Brian/Beach Boys releases (i.e. MIC) in the past few years. And there will be alternate versions of the released tracks available for download for free.

Not condoning illegal downloading here at all - just tellin' it like it is.  I'll listen to the whole thing before April 7. But I'll still buy the CD with the boner tracks at Target, then probably look for the other versions later. 'Cause I'm a big fan and collector, ya know.

If you read page 2 of the thread, this person we were having the discussion with made it clear that she pays to download the track as a last resort, if she can't download it for free.  That is definitely not supporting the artist's work and it is deliberately stealing from the artist.  I doubt anyone has a problem with collectors who certainly buy each release in every conceivable form.
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2015, 02:40:31 PM »

Exactly Debbie!
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« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2015, 03:07:28 PM »

Exactly Debbie!

Hey. We already have one cheerleader on this board.  Do you want to be the male cheerleader now?   Cheesy

Wait. We already have a male cheerleader here. I forgot about Shady.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 03:08:26 PM by Mikie » Logged

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2015, 03:18:26 PM »

Lemme tell you sumpthin. A little facto-mundo here.

There is NO ONE (ZERO) people on this board that haven't "stolen" Brian's music before. Not one person.

And I guarantee you that this new album will be available on multiple web sites for free before it's even released. Just like all the previous Brian/Beach Boys releases (i.e. MIC) in the past few years. And there will be alternate versions of the released tracks available for download for free.

Not condoning illegal downloading here at all - just tellin' it like it is.  I'll listen to the whole thing before April 7. But I'll still buy the CD with the boner tracks at Target, then probably look for the other versions later. 'Cause I'm a big fan and collector, ya know.

If you read page 2 of the thread, this person we were having the discussion with made it clear that she pays to download the track as a last resort, if she can't download it for free.  That is definitely not supporting the artist's work and it is deliberately stealing from the artist.  I doubt anyone has a problem with collectors who certainly buy each release in every conceivable form.

Debbie, my 'collector's' point was secondary to my first point.  I was covering my tracks before someone suggested that I also download music exclusively for free and don't bother to buy the CD or pay for the download on iTunes or Spotify or wherever the choice is. It's just the nature of the beast with the Internet these days.

All I was saying is what a lot of people here do and won't dare to admit. And why should they? It's obviously better to support the artist, but there will be people who will look to the Rock websites and Torrents and other sources to download it for free instead of paying .99 per song or springing for the entire CD on Amazon. I could go on but I'll leave it to Jude or others. Can't say I disagree with you Debbie because you're obviously right, but unfortunately these days the artist doesn't pocket all the money they're entitled to.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 03:31:05 PM by Mikie » Logged

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2015, 03:19:32 PM »

Mikie, I will cheer lead a Mikie vs. Bgas collectors showdown.
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« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2015, 03:29:32 PM »

Mikie, I will cheer lead a Mikie vs. Bgas collectors showdown.

Personally, I'd much rather see a Dempsey/Bgas or SMiLEHolland/Bgas showdown. MetalFlake Paint will go up against the winner of that bout.  You can be the ref, SB.
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
Debbie Keil-Leavitt
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« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2015, 03:54:05 PM »

Lemme tell you sumpthin. A little facto-mundo here.

There is NO ONE (ZERO) people on this board that haven't "stolen" Brian's music before. Not one person.

And I guarantee you that this new album will be available on multiple web sites for free before it's even released. Just like all the previous Brian/Beach Boys releases (i.e. MIC) in the past few years. And there will be alternate versions of the released tracks available for download for free.

Not condoning illegal downloading here at all - just tellin' it like it is.  I'll listen to the whole thing before April 7. But I'll still buy the CD with the boner tracks at Target, then probably look for the other versions later. 'Cause I'm a big fan and collector, ya know.

If you read page 2 of the thread, this person we were having the discussion with made it clear that she pays to download the track as a last resort, if she can't download it for free.  That is definitely not supporting the artist's work and it is deliberately stealing from the artist.  I doubt anyone has a problem with collectors who certainly buy each release in every conceivable form.

Debbie, my 'collector's' point was secondary to my first point.  I was covering my tracks before someone suggested that I also download music exclusively for free and don't bother to buy the CD or pay for the download on iTunes or Spotify or wherever the choice is. It's just the nature of the beast with the Internet these days.

All I was saying is what a lot of people here do and won't dare to admit. And why should they? It's obviously better to support the artist, but there will be people who will look to the Rock websites and Torrents and other sources to download it for free instead of paying .99 per song or springing for the entire CD on Amazon. I could go on but I'll leave it to Jude or others. Can't say I disagree with you Debbie because you're obviously right, but unfortunately these days the artist doesn't pocket all the money they're entitled to.

Mikie - Clearly we don't disagree and I'm not naive about what is happening to the music and film industries as a whole with illegal downloads.  And we know that collectors are the best supporters of their favorite artists, so my complaint isn't with these people.  I know quite a few of collectors and they buy every single release no matter what is out there for free.

But for someone to come onto SS and flat out say that they only buy BB's/Brian's work as a last resort when she can't download it for free, and then to argue that it isn't stealing from the artist is offensive to me, and I would think every artist here who would like to be paid for his/her work.
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« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2015, 05:19:52 PM »

This is so absurd. There are good arguments I've heard about the morality and economic effects of illegally downloading music. None have been raised here. It has nothing to do with illegal downloaders' vs. paying customers' equality or fandom-connection to Brian Wilson, that's for fucking sure. And before I rant--which I'm about to--here's the disclaimer where I say I'm no angel on the topic. And I'm only talking below about downloading commercially available music without paying for it when the music's owners are not offering it for free download. I'm not especially sober, so forgive any errors below. Or don't. I don't much care.

Downloading free copies of music from an unauthorized source when that music is available for purchase through standard commercial means can be discussed in several sometimes interrelated ways. This thread matches my experience in that the points being made on all sides tend to skip freely from one way to another.

Three primary ways to view the practice seem to me to be:
-       Legality
-       Morality
-       Economic effects
 
Legality.
Legally, there is no question in the US. Even for personal, noncommercial use, it is illegal per the “No Electronic Theft (NET) Act,” which changed previous relevant law’s (The Copyright Act, I think) requirements to expand the requirement of “financial gain” on the part of the would-be criminal to mean more than just selling bootlegs (for example), but rather to include “receipt, or expectation of receipt, of anything of value, including … copyrighted works.”
 
A cursory glance online shows that virtually all developed nations, including WTO members (which includes Russia), are signatory to a treaty that requires compliance with other countries’ copyright infringement claims. So while I’m far from an expert, it certainly seems illegal to download or upload copyrighted material even outside the nation where the copyright is held.

If you're uploading or downloading commercially available material outside of a legit commercial transaction with the rights-holder, you're stealing (by law). You can try to rationalize it on moral or economic grounds. But legally, you are stealing.
 
Morality.
Illegal downloading is often defended by the “artists are rich” argument—that has been a constant since Metallica spoke out against Napster, just as Garth Brooks was pilloried for his criticisms of used albums being sold without further royalties to artists in the ‘90s (and various artists and labels complaining about cassettes earlier). The good old Robin Hood argument. You certainly could try to make an argument about the ongoing accumulation of wealth by the wealthy at the expense of the poorer…but that doesn’t really relate to this argument. But really, is it OK to steal if it's from the rich? Is it OK to kill an asshole? Is it OK to rape a jerk? The rightness of an action is not determined by the object of the action.
 
First and most obviously, very, very, very few artists are rich. In fact, very few record label/media companies are all that profitable. The vast majority of musicians (and labels) make little or no money.

But more important is that it’s simply immoral for one party to unilaterally make a decision regarding a 2-party transaction. “Because I said so” only works with a parent and a seven-year-old. For a commercial transaction to be morally legitimate, I’d think both parties to the transaction should be complicit. If I offer something for $10, it isn’t the buyer’s choice to pay less unless I eventually concede to the lower price. No person should be able to unilaterally impose his will on another in this respect

The fact that the sites exist—easily recognizable—from which to download music illegally doesn’t change the morality of what is being done. If it is wrong (and I argue it is), then it’s wrong whether you can achieve it or not. A 20-year-old physically fit man could presumably very easily knock down an old woman. The simplicity of getting away with it doesn’t change the morality of doing it.

Economic Effects.
This one comes up a lot in defense of illegally downloading and sharing music, too. It can in some circumstances even make sense. But I think it’s important to realize that even if one were to concede that there is no economic harm involved, that doesn’t undo the legality or morality of the situation.

So is there economic harm involved? One common defense is, by sharing music illegally, I am helping the artist get exposure and his tours will be more successful in the future if he comes to my area. This is not on its face obviously untrue. But neither is it necessarily true. First and foremost, artists can (and do) share their music online for free use—if not possession—already via radio, Youtube, Spotify, etc. Rather than file-sharing, you could simply point your friends to an online link or a radio station where the tune is in rotation and theoretically have the same effect.

Second, there is the common argument that I didn’t take money from the artist’s pocket because I wasn’t going to buy it: if I hadn’t illegally downloaded it, I would have simply done without. On a case-by-case basis, that might be true. But looking at music sales overall, it obviously isn’t true (unless people simply don’t listen to music as much as they used to). Music sales—including legitimate, online sales—are far, far, far, far (enough fars?) lower than they were before file sharing was convenient.

The reality is, a huge number of people steal music rather than pay for it. Some of that money would have gone to very rich record execs. Some would have gone to very rich artists. Some to middle-class ones. Some to poor ones. Some to associated industries, whether graphic designers or engineers or studio janitors or whatever else.

Concurrently, and somewhat ironically through the same kind of technological explosion that allows online piracy, people have become more able than ever before to make music more cheaply and to make more of the money on their own products that they do sell by going directly to buyers online. No argument there. But even if that is true, it doesn’t justify the practice of taking for free.

Also lumped into the economics portion, the thing about the fact that illegal sources aren't shut down implicitly making it OK. That's idiotic. The truth is, police don't stop everyone who speeds because it is not cost-effective to do that. It doesn't make speeding legal. The US government doesn't focus on every single illegal immigrant, but on those committing violent acts or dealing drugs. College security doesn't focus on underage drinking and weed, but on narcotics and violence. In everything, there are choices based on resources. Artists in the US or Europe can't go chasing every odd small-time downloader of a song. It's not cost-effective. But that doesn't make it morally acceptable or legal for the downloader or uploader of the song. It's still illegal and immoral. Hershey's won't hunt you down for stealing a candy bar; it's still wrong to steal a candy bar, and their decision not to chase you isn't the same as their implied consent on the matter.

Anyway, that’s my little thought-vomit on the subject.
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« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2015, 05:46:18 PM »

Zooey Deschanel on Working with Brian Wilson

(Jimmy Kimmel Live)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nqq65IEJI0
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« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2015, 12:50:03 AM »

Thank you, Captain, for that little masterpiece of analysis. I think you've covered the topic definitively. I think your most compelling point perhaps (among many compelling points) is that file sharing made stealing so easy, and so invisible to anyone who might catch you in the act, that it has become easy to reframe it and think of it as something other than stealing.

As a thought experiment (and I realize this is a very radical comparison), imagine yourself exactly as you are, with all your current foibles, except you suddenly have the power to make someone disappear from the Earth forever, just by thinking it. And what's more, you don't even have to see the person or be in the same vicinity to make it happen, and no one except you will ever remember that person ever existed in the first place. It wouldn't be very long till you got angry at some stranger you know nothing about (maybe it's road rage, maybe they cut you off in the grocery line) and used that power. And in order to live with yourself, you'd find a way to understand what you had done that isn't "killing." That, my friends, is part of human nature.
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« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2015, 12:55:43 AM »

I still don't know what Rangie does for a living. Whatever it is, I want one. For free. Whether it's something she makes, something she sells, or whether it's a chunk of her time. For free.
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« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2015, 06:46:38 AM »

Captain - I am very grateful to you for taking the time for your detailed description of what is legal and where it's legal regarding "free downloads."  The unauthorized downloads certainly aren't "free" to the artist or anyone else who was involved in producing a recorded musical work (or film). That took money and work with the intention of having some return on that investment. 

How wealthy the artist/producer etc. happen to be has nothing to do with whether they should be compensated for their work or not.  I'm certainly not wealthy, nor are most of the people I know who insist on paying for an artist's product whether they are friends, family, or whatever.  It's a form of respect - both self-respect and respect for the artist.

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« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2015, 04:12:17 PM »

Officially: Just to clarify and restate according to the rules of the forum, not that it's needed but just in case, sharing upload links of commercially released music is not permitted here and any links or requests to "pm" or share such material is a violation that will result in very swift action. No sharing of commercially released material, period. YouTube links as those that have come out from NPP are similar to radio airplay in that they get logged, tallied, and the artists and publishers get a cut. It's common sense what is allowed and what is not.

Unofficially and personally: As a member of ASCAP I support every effort to make sure the artists and all involved in creating music receive what is rightfully theirs for the work they produced. Are they "gray areas"? Sure. But suggesting music should be free for all, free for the taking is, to me, absurd. As mentioned, it would be like walking into anyone's shop or place of business and demanding the service, goods, or whatever else they offer be given for free. Walk into a restaurant, demand a free meal with desert. Same difference. If that restaurant chooses to give free food, it's on them. Suggesting they *must* give out free food or suggesting someone is entitled to free food from that restaurant is as absurd as expecting artists to give their recordings for free, to play shows for free, to allow free and open use and sale of their songs by others for free, etc.

Having done budgeting and financial planning for everything from recording sessions as both a client and as a studio operator, to live shows, to my fees for writing and turoring and factoring in everything that goes into the process, anyone who thinks or expects it to be offered "free" should just ask for a rundown of what things cost both in terms of money and time and see exactly what they're asking for. Those figures, as the Three Stooges would say, are staggering.

Add my voice to those saying artists, especially musicians since it affects me, should be paid for their work and paid fairly.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2015, 12:45:05 AM »

If you read page 2 of the thread, this person we were having the discussion with made it clear that she pays to download the track as a last resort, if she can't download it for free.  That is definitely not supporting the artist's work and it is deliberately stealing from the artist.  I doubt anyone has a problem with collectors who certainly buy each release in every conceivable form.

Yes, I've ripped streams of advance material, but I always buy the product when it's released, for the following reasons:

1 - I'm supporting my favoured musicians (not that some of them need it, but hey...).

2 - paying for anything confers the right of criticism, be it "this is the best buy I ever made !" or "I can't believe I actually paid for this sh*t !!".

3 - "download it for free" = theft. Or as RRA1 would have it, "dwnld it f/fre" = thft. Or smth. lk. tht.  Grin
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 12:48:27 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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